WEBVTT 00:00:59.980 --> 00:01:03.021 so? We're good. Thanks, Robert. 00:01:03.033 --> 00:01:05.514 Okay. Good afternoon, everybody. Thank 00:01:05.526 --> 00:01:08.383 you all for coming. My name is Jaime Ormond. 00:01:08.395 --> 00:01:11.199 I'm a senior analyst here at the California 00:01:11.211 --> 00:01:13.874 Public Utilities Commission in the Energy 00:01:13.886 --> 00:01:16.815 Division. We're here in Rulemaking 1302008 to 00:01:16.827 --> 00:01:19.623 talk about consideration, consideration for 00:01:19.635 --> 00:01:22.251 a standard renewable gas interconnection 00:01:22.263 --> 00:01:24.988 tariff. Come on in, everybody. So, just as 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:27.672 we're getting started, we're gonna do the 00:01:27.684 --> 00:01:30.032 normal protocol, Safety and Emergency 00:01:30.044 --> 00:01:33.297 Information. So, in case anything bad happens, we 00:01:33.309 --> 00:01:35.782 have a meeting point, which is at Opera 00:01:35.794 --> 00:01:38.724 Plaza, which is basically, if you go out the 00:01:38.736 --> 00:01:41.470 front of the Commission or out the side of 00:01:41.482 --> 00:01:44.291 the Commission, you walk down the hill, you 00:01:44.303 --> 00:01:46.769 see the big black statue, or it's a big 00:01:46.781 --> 00:01:49.576 black box, it's made of granite, go to the 00:01:49.588 --> 00:01:52.504 right, and there we will reconvene in the War 00:01:52.516 --> 00:01:55.254 Memorial and Opera Plaza. Then when we get 00:01:55.266 --> 00:01:58.053 some signal, we'll figure out what to do at 00:01:58.065 --> 00:02:01.118 that point. So that is our safety and emergency 00:02:01.130 --> 00:02:03.477 information. Just so we all know, the 00:02:03.489 --> 00:02:06.421 bathrooms are at the end of the hall, and we 00:02:06.433 --> 00:02:09.536 have a cafeteria, Mochas, in the other building, 00:02:09.548 --> 00:02:12.027 where we have coffee and water to keep 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:14.511 everybody awake. I recognize this is an 00:02:14.523 --> 00:02:17.709 unorthodox time to meet. But we had a Commission 00:02:17.721 --> 00:02:20.445 meeting here in the morning that we worked 00:02:20.457 --> 00:02:23.257 with and we're here today, we have a lot of 00:02:23.269 --> 00:02:25.872 information to get through, which is why 00:02:25.884 --> 00:02:28.690 we're starting right on time at noon. Okay. 00:02:28.690 --> 00:02:33.173 So today's workshop information. We're here at the 00:02:33.185 --> 00:02:37.882 PUC. We're starting as close to noon as humanly possible. Our call-in 00:02:37.894 --> 00:02:42.383 number is here with the passcode. We are live broadcasting through 00:02:42.395 --> 00:02:47.299 AdminMonitor. The website is here on the slide deck. You can find all of 00:02:47.311 --> 00:02:51.998 this information on the CPUC's Renewable Natural Gas Website. All you 00:02:52.010 --> 00:02:56.777 need to do is Google CPUC Renewable Natural Gas, our website will come 00:02:56.789 --> 00:03:01.415 up, and then, you just scroll down until you find the November 14th, 00:03:01.427 --> 00:03:05.998 excuse me, November 13th, that's today, workshop box. And again all 00:03:06.010 --> 00:03:11.234 this information is available on the web, including some of the presentations 00:03:11.246 --> 00:03:15.743 that we're gonna be going through today. They're already uploaded, 00:03:15.755 --> 00:03:20.178 so we're ready to go. So this is our third meeting this year. Who 00:03:20.190 --> 00:03:24.759 knows who this is? Show of hands. This is the third time I've asked 00:03:24.771 --> 00:03:29.662 this question this year. So I'm hoping that the number of hands are more 00:03:29.674 --> 00:03:34.241 than four, which is what our high number at our last meeting. Greta 00:03:34.253 --> 00:03:38.746 Thunberg. Her motive, she's led, leaving back on another sailing a 00:03:38.758 --> 00:03:43.331 sail boat for Europe. Today, she says that climate change is really 00:03:43.343 --> 00:03:48.024 black or white. We're either going to stop emissions or we're not. So 00:03:48.036 --> 00:03:52.729 bonus question, for our third workshop of the year, who's that? Hands 00:03:52.741 --> 00:03:57.428 up, if you know Jamie Margolin our American Greta Thurnberg, the head 00:03:57.440 --> 00:04:02.139 of the Zero Hour climate change movement. Okay, so just before we get 00:04:02.151 --> 00:04:06.835 started, a couple of thoughts. I want to first introduced you to Rich 00:04:06.847 --> 00:04:11.745 Sandow here. My new compatriot on the Renewable Energy Renewable Natural 00:04:11.757 --> 00:04:16.178 Gas team. Wave. He's here in San Francisco. Next year, we'll find 00:04:16.190 --> 00:04:20.758 him in Sacramento. Love Aseto Akofe is our new team member in L. A. 00:04:20.770 --> 00:04:25.453 She is joining us on the Internet. You will meet her in the future. I 00:04:25.465 --> 00:04:30.361 want to point out my intern, George O'Connelly. He does energy economics 00:04:30.373 --> 00:04:34.927 at UC Davis. Jack Chang, my other intern there in the back. He is a 00:04:34.939 --> 00:04:39.572 renewable energy, climate change, science and policy at UC Berkeley. 00:04:39.584 --> 00:04:44.270 Goldman Sachs. My two interns for the day. Ask them anything. They're 00:04:44.282 --> 00:04:48.711 here. I want to thank Tardon in the booth. I want to thank Robert 00:04:48.723 --> 00:04:53.347 Stanford here. They make meetings like this happen. I'm showing this 00:04:53.359 --> 00:04:58.130 slide here about teamwork and working together to create great change. 00:04:58.155 --> 00:05:01.764 I just want to take a moment and just remember 00:05:01.776 --> 00:05:05.283 Edgar Hansen. He helped us put together all of our workshops 00:05:05.295 --> 00:05:08.622 this year, and he passed away suddenly. This organization 00:05:08.634 --> 00:05:11.801 is reeling from a great loss. And I just want to honor 00:05:11.813 --> 00:05:15.352 him because he has been helping me do my job for seven years. 00:05:15.364 --> 00:05:18.687 He has been helping this agency do its job for his entire 00:05:18.699 --> 00:05:22.015 career. He's no longer with us. It's really sad. So we're 00:05:22.027 --> 00:05:25.240 all gonna work together to make this work in his honor. 00:05:25.265 --> 00:05:28.173 Okay. The agenda for today. First of 00:05:28.185 --> 00:05:31.326 all, we have our welcome and preliminary comments. We're 00:05:31.338 --> 00:05:34.363 going to get right into the utility joint presentation 00:05:34.375 --> 00:05:37.356 of their draft standard renewable gas interconnection 00:05:37.368 --> 00:05:40.059 tariff, which they have been working on together 00:05:40.071 --> 00:05:43.159 diligently for months. This is a very big deal. Our gas 00:05:43.171 --> 00:05:46.033 utilities working together to create a platform for 00:05:46.045 --> 00:05:48.808 the future. We're gonna have a robust to question 00:05:48.820 --> 00:05:51.730 and answer period because I know you're all familiar 00:05:51.742 --> 00:05:54.719 with the document that was filed on November 1st. You 00:05:54.731 --> 00:05:57.757 read through it, you have your questions prepared, and 00:05:57.769 --> 00:06:00.752 for those of you at home, or at your location of work 00:06:00.764 --> 00:06:03.621 that isn't in the room, the filing is also findable 00:06:03.633 --> 00:06:06.558 on the Renewable Natural Gas website. You could just 00:06:06.570 --> 00:06:09.378 open it and everything that we're talking about is 00:06:09.390 --> 00:06:12.486 available there, too. We're going to do a stretch break 00:06:12.498 --> 00:06:15.569 after our Q&A, and then we're gonna come back and we're 00:06:15.581 --> 00:06:18.499 gonna talk about new renewable natural gas projects, 00:06:18.511 --> 00:06:21.422 interconnection issues that are coming up, and then, 00:06:21.434 --> 00:06:24.302 we'll have a number of our audience members talking 00:06:24.314 --> 00:06:27.057 about that. And we're gonna be able to do a nice, 00:06:27.069 --> 00:06:30.100 robust question and answer period. Because this is the 00:06:30.112 --> 00:06:32.805 time when we get to talk about the new renewable 00:06:32.817 --> 00:06:35.744 natural gas projects that are coming to the state of 00:06:35.756 --> 00:06:38.718 California. At the end , we'll do, if there are other 00:06:38.730 --> 00:06:41.649 topics that we haven't touched yet, we have question 00:06:41.661 --> 00:06:44.684 and answers then, and then we'll talk about next steps 00:06:44.696 --> 00:06:47.455 and will close. And our list of presentations are 00:06:47.467 --> 00:06:50.488 here. I have most of your slide decks. If you have any 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:53.366 last minute slidedecks, I look forward to receiving 00:06:53.378 --> 00:06:56.239 your thumb drive in advance. And just before we get 00:06:56.251 --> 00:06:59.400 started with the main event of today, our presentations, 00:06:59.425 --> 00:07:02.885 I would like to introduce our 00:07:02.897 --> 00:07:06.519 very special and esteemed guest. Are you ready? 00:07:06.531 --> 00:07:10.752 Commissioner Rechtschaffen. He is the lead Commissioner 00:07:10.764 --> 00:07:14.317 on this proceeding. Rulemaking 1302008. He has 00:07:14.329 --> 00:07:17.774 an illustrious career. He is here, one of our 00:07:17.786 --> 00:07:21.392 Commissioners at the agency. And, Commissioner, 00:07:21.404 --> 00:07:24.854 would you liketo go ahead? Would you like the 00:07:24.866 --> 00:07:28.780 podium? Would you like to go from there? All right. 00:07:31.405 --> 00:07:36.549 Thank you, Jamie. I came here to give a very 00:07:36.561 --> 00:07:41.579 brief introduction. I didn't realize I was going to also get inspiration 00:07:41.591 --> 00:07:46.810 from Jamie, but thank you very much for that. I did expect my picture up on 00:07:46.822 --> 00:07:51.846 the on the screen, but I'm sorry about that. Thank you. For those of you 00:07:51.858 --> 00:07:56.799 who came early and attended our meeting and sorry for the adjustment in 00:07:56.811 --> 00:07:59.757 schedule, we, this is obviously critically 00:07:59.769 --> 00:08:02.314 important that we address this order 00:08:02.326 --> 00:08:07.203 that we did this morning dealing with an investigation into the public 00:08:07.215 --> 00:08:12.311 safety power shut offs that have been occurring throughout the state over 00:08:12.323 --> 00:08:17.400 the past several weeks. I want to thank all of you for your engagement in 00:08:17.412 --> 00:08:22.569 this process. Overall, for coming to all the workshops. This is one of our 00:08:22.581 --> 00:08:25.523 proceedings that requires a lot of effort, 00:08:25.535 --> 00:08:27.871 technical expertise, staying with 00:08:27.883 --> 00:08:33.184 things. And this group has done a very good job in doing that. I'm delighted 00:08:33.196 --> 00:08:37.931 to learn from Jamie that she has a whole team of talented people. So 00:08:37.943 --> 00:08:43.034 welcome to the rest of you. I really just want to extend my thanks to the 00:08:43.046 --> 00:08:48.201 parties who worked very, very hard in coming up with this uniform pipeline 00:08:48.213 --> 00:08:53.311 interconnection tariff, along with the uniform interconnection agreement, 00:08:53.323 --> 00:08:55.641 that should really help facilitate 00:08:55.653 --> 00:08:58.600 pipeline injection and make things easier 00:08:58.612 --> 00:09:03.558 for all parties involved. Parties will no longer have to face different 00:09:03.570 --> 00:09:08.717 requirements, different strategies, different issues in different parts of 00:09:08.729 --> 00:09:13.681 the state. And that's extremely helpful. There's not, we can't we can't 00:09:13.693 --> 00:09:16.012 change the world and eliminate all 00:09:16.024 --> 00:09:18.973 obstacles. But this could be a very, very 00:09:18.985 --> 00:09:23.935 important one. As many of you know, we're working to do other things to 00:09:23.947 --> 00:09:29.234 facilitate bio-methane injection into the pipeline, the legislature extended 00:09:29.246 --> 00:09:34.476 the deadline for dispersing pipeline interconnection incentives until 2026. 00:09:34.488 --> 00:09:39.561 And we've issued a ruling that would establish a reservation system which 00:09:39.573 --> 00:09:42.447 would allow developers to get, basically, 00:09:42.459 --> 00:09:44.864 a spot in line until the project's 00:09:44.876 --> 00:09:49.680 finished and incentives are available. And we're working very hard on 00:09:49.692 --> 00:09:54.921 looking at hydrogen injection. What standards should be appropriate. And we 00:09:54.933 --> 00:10:00.146 expect to issue a ruling in the near future. So thanks again for your work. 00:10:00.158 --> 00:10:05.178 I apologize again for interfering with your lunch. Hopefully, Jamie will 00:10:05.190 --> 00:10:10.340 not crack the whip too hard and she'll give you a break or two. And I look 00:10:10.352 --> 00:10:15.240 forward to hearing about a productive session today. Thanks very much. 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:19.659 Thank you, Commissioner. All right, so let's dive 00:10:19.671 --> 00:10:24.236 right in. I'm gonna call up our joint utility presenters. I'm gonna 00:10:24.248 --> 00:10:28.538 pull up your slide deck, and I'm gonna let you get to it. Also, 00:10:28.550 --> 00:10:32.852 just so you know, on the back table, we have the agenda for the 00:10:32.864 --> 00:10:37.353 day, including the presentations and the draft standard tariff, so 00:10:37.365 --> 00:10:41.731 you can have the document in front of you as we're going through 00:10:41.743 --> 00:10:46.238 different sections so you can look at the text and determine if it 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:50.689 meets your standards. If you have specific thoughts and comments, 00:10:50.701 --> 00:10:55.256 we're gonna let the utilities do their presentation, and then we're 00:10:55.268 --> 00:10:59.633 going to have a robust question and answer period so that all of 00:10:59.645 --> 00:11:04.071 your questions can be answered in preparation for comments, which 00:11:04.083 --> 00:11:08.656 are due on the 21st, and reply comments, which are due on the 31st, 00:11:08.668 --> 00:11:13.292 which will help to shape this preliminary draft of a living document 00:11:13.304 --> 00:11:17.740 that will help create this platform to interconnect new renewable 00:11:17.752 --> 00:11:21.844 natural gas projects to the grid and decarbonize the system. 00:11:21.856 --> 00:11:26.230 Come on down, joint utilities, whenever you're ready. All right. 00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:16.881 There we go. But it's not 00:12:16.893 --> 00:12:19.556 showing on the screen. All right, Thanks, 00:12:19.568 --> 00:12:22.606 Robert. As we're managing our technical issues, 00:12:22.618 --> 00:12:25.224 why don't you guys introduce yourselves. 00:12:25.249 --> 00:12:27.968 Okay. Hello. I'm Jamie Randolph. 00:12:27.980 --> 00:12:30.229 I'm with Pacific Gas and Electric Company. 00:12:37.329 --> 00:12:38.265 Push the green button. 00:12:38.290 --> 00:12:43.189 Jerry McPherson. SoCal Gas. 00:12:43.214 --> 00:12:45.524 Ivan Salada, SoCal Gas. 00:12:45.549 --> 00:12:49.418 Dana Walsh, Southwest Gas Corporation. 00:12:49.443 --> 00:12:51.149 Brian Thatcher, Southwest Gas Corporation. 00:13:09.249 --> 00:13:15.473 All right, so I'm gonna go ahead and just get started while 00:13:15.485 --> 00:13:21.639 she's working on this. We got it. So, we represent the utilities that have 00:13:21.651 --> 00:13:27.716 been working on drafting the proposed rule that was filed on November 1st 00:13:27.728 --> 00:13:33.970 for renewable gas interconnections into the utility pipelines. Can go ahead 00:13:33.982 --> 00:13:40.373 and actually go on to slide three, our introduction. Oh, I have it. I forgot. 00:13:40.385 --> 00:13:46.213 Thank you. All right, So that that was supposed to be our introduction 00:13:46.225 --> 00:13:52.212 slide. So the utilities started working on this, really, back in July of 00:13:52.224 --> 00:13:58.469 2018, there was a ruling that came out that, in this proceeding, that asked 00:13:58.481 --> 00:14:04.532 us to start working on a draft tarrif rule for an interconnection process 00:14:04.544 --> 00:14:10.770 for renewable gas. October 2018, we filed a very high level outline of what 00:14:10.782 --> 00:14:16.921 our processes looked like and where they were the same and where they were 00:14:16.933 --> 00:14:23.166 different for the most part. And we came back and we had a workshop on what 00:14:23.178 --> 00:14:29.478 we filed back in May, and got together and it was decided that we should put 00:14:29.490 --> 00:14:35.720 together more robust rule that could be submitted as a proposal for getting 00:14:35.732 --> 00:14:41.874 a renewable gas interconnected into the pipeline system that could be more 00:14:41.886 --> 00:14:47.630 seamless across California. So the utilities got together. We wanted, 00:14:47.630 --> 00:14:51.153 We want to encourage renewable 00:14:51.165 --> 00:14:54.173 natural gas, renewable gas, not natural 00:14:54.185 --> 00:14:57.714 gas, but renewable gas to be injected into our 00:14:57.726 --> 00:15:00.966 pipelines. We want to support California's 00:15:00.978 --> 00:15:04.353 carbon reduction and greenhouse gas emission 00:15:04.365 --> 00:15:07.526 goals. And so we got together, and we put 00:15:07.538 --> 00:15:10.694 together a pretty robust project plan and 00:15:10.706 --> 00:15:14.325 process to draft this rule that we submitted on 00:15:14.337 --> 00:15:17.711 November 1st. We've got about probably about 00:15:17.723 --> 00:15:20.883 40 different resources from the utilities 00:15:20.895 --> 00:15:24.200 that have worked together on this since the 00:15:24.212 --> 00:15:27.528 beginning, or the end of June, beginning of 00:15:27.540 --> 00:15:30.917 July, we've been meeting about twice a week, 00:15:30.929 --> 00:15:34.092 some weeks more. There's been a couple of 00:15:34.104 --> 00:15:37.487 weeks where we only met once a week, but I'd 00:15:37.499 --> 00:15:40.969 say we've been consistently meeting and every 00:15:40.981 --> 00:15:44.350 meeting has at least 10 to 15 people on. And 00:15:44.362 --> 00:15:48.043 then we're kind of talking amongst the resources 00:15:48.055 --> 00:15:51.204 and then coming back together. So we went 00:15:51.216 --> 00:15:54.452 through a process of outlining the tariff, 00:15:54.464 --> 00:15:57.534 and then we walked through the different 00:15:57.546 --> 00:16:01.005 sections that we thought would make sense. We 00:16:01.017 --> 00:16:04.696 looked at our existing rules for interconnection 00:16:04.708 --> 00:16:07.947 and pulled out what information made sense 00:16:07.959 --> 00:16:11.404 from those. And so these belong here and then 00:16:11.416 --> 00:16:14.722 looked at the different differences between 00:16:14.734 --> 00:16:18.110 the different utilities in the processes and 00:16:18.122 --> 00:16:21.134 what's in the existing rules and try to 00:16:21.146 --> 00:16:24.518 figure out what was the best practice or the 00:16:24.530 --> 00:16:27.614 best of all the worlds that we could put 00:16:27.626 --> 00:16:31.156 together for us to come together on this. So I 00:16:31.168 --> 00:16:34.559 think that's probably enough on the process. 00:16:34.584 --> 00:16:41.304 So this rule, who does it apply to? This is for anyone who is 00:16:41.316 --> 00:16:47.875 going to be injecting renewable gas into a utility pipeline. It's not, it's 00:16:47.887 --> 00:16:50.548 not for the fossil gas. This is 00:16:50.560 --> 00:16:54.441 specifically for renewable gas to give them 00:16:54.453 --> 00:17:00.845 guidance and direction on how to do that. The rule, if you haven't looked 00:17:00.857 --> 00:17:07.666 at it, this is kind of a very high level organization of what we put together. 00:17:07.678 --> 00:17:13.723 We have a table of contents, we have definitions, the definitions are 00:17:13.735 --> 00:17:20.204 in there so that we could align on our definitions, applicability and open 00:17:20.216 --> 00:17:26.785 access. Then we have the process, the interconnection process. We have what 00:17:26.797 --> 00:17:32.990 the costs are. We have a section in there for local government entities 00:17:33.002 --> 00:17:39.379 that are renewable gas interconnectors. We have the specifications in gas 00:17:39.391 --> 00:17:46.021 quality, information in there that some of it is in existing rules. But this 00:17:46.033 --> 00:17:52.675 is what specific to our renewable gas. Then we have something that came out, 00:17:52.687 --> 00:17:59.142 we had a proposal that we were, that we filed in June on pipeline blending 00:17:59.154 --> 00:18:05.707 exception process, and that's in this rule. And then we added some sections 00:18:05.719 --> 00:18:12.352 on discontinuance and termination and dispute resolution. That's a very high 00:18:12.364 --> 00:18:18.750 level overview of what's in the rule. So I think this goes down to Brian. 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:21.822 Okay, so, we wanted to 00:18:21.834 --> 00:18:25.753 highlight a few of the rule sections that are 00:18:25.765 --> 00:18:29.427 new to this Joint Utilities tariff. And one 00:18:29.439 --> 00:18:32.863 of those sections is the Section J local 00:18:32.875 --> 00:18:36.450 government entity section. So this section 00:18:36.462 --> 00:18:40.050 realizes that utilities, on a case by case 00:18:40.062 --> 00:18:43.644 basis, can negotiate with local government 00:18:43.656 --> 00:18:46.999 entities, basically cities or counties, 00:18:47.011 --> 00:18:50.908 as defined in the California Constitution. And 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:54.413 this just recognizes that they are unique 00:18:54.425 --> 00:18:58.328 entities. So there's unique property ownership 00:18:58.340 --> 00:19:01.839 characteristics. There's creditworthiness 00:19:01.851 --> 00:19:04.834 that they may not need to post bonds 00:19:04.846 --> 00:19:08.675 performance insuranceand that recognition of 00:19:08.687 --> 00:19:15.356 a different payment cycle based on the meeting schedule of a government agency. 00:19:15.381 --> 00:19:18.703 So another section that was 00:19:18.715 --> 00:19:21.686 added is the pipeline blending exception 00:19:21.698 --> 00:19:24.736 study. Which is Section L. The reason why 00:19:24.748 --> 00:19:27.653 this was included was to kind of expand 00:19:27.665 --> 00:19:30.772 the opportunities for people to, you know, 00:19:30.784 --> 00:19:33.467 sell renewable gas to the utilities. 00:19:33.479 --> 00:19:36.447 Even though the based gas quality issues 00:19:36.459 --> 00:19:39.512 may not meet the standard, but after it's 00:19:39.524 --> 00:19:42.557 blended in, mixed in with the gas already 00:19:42.569 --> 00:19:45.469 in the pipeline, the quality of the gas 00:19:45.481 --> 00:19:48.302 may be acceptable. So we feel this will 00:19:48.314 --> 00:19:51.584 allow some additional interconnectors to be 00:19:51.596 --> 00:19:54.559 able to move forward with selling gas to 00:19:54.571 --> 00:19:57.692 the utilities. When we do the study, we'll 00:19:57.704 --> 00:20:01.110 evaluate the quality gas it'll have downstream 00:20:01.122 --> 00:20:03.740 after the pipe or after the gas has 00:20:03.752 --> 00:20:06.273 been blended in with the gas in the 00:20:06.285 --> 00:20:09.396 pipeline. If that gas is considered to be 00:20:09.408 --> 00:20:12.660 interchangeable with other gases that we use 00:20:12.672 --> 00:20:15.645 historically, contractually, then we can 00:20:15.657 --> 00:20:18.398 accept that blending study. We want to 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:21.525 point out that the interconnector will be 00:20:21.537 --> 00:20:24.574 responsible to pay the cost of the study, 00:20:24.586 --> 00:20:27.707 and the interconnector will need to make a 00:20:27.719 --> 00:20:30.676 request for us to perform the study. And 00:20:30.688 --> 00:20:33.947 then we also reserve the right, if we accept 00:20:33.959 --> 00:20:39.764 the blending, that sometimes the future, when conditions change, we may have to 00:20:39.776 --> 00:20:42.808 rescind that option. For instance, we may 00:20:42.820 --> 00:20:46.155 have a major customer that terminates service 00:20:46.167 --> 00:20:52.050 with us, and therefore we no longer have enough gas low to safely blend the gas. 00:20:52.075 --> 00:20:56.052 And so, in that instance, Section M 00:20:56.064 --> 00:21:00.293 talks about discontinuance and termination and that, 00:21:00.305 --> 00:21:04.688 those, that scenario will be governed by the agreement 00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:08.616 that is entered into between the utility and the 00:21:08.628 --> 00:21:12.768 interconnector. And then, if there are any disputes 00:21:12.780 --> 00:21:17.252 regarding the utilities' performance under this tariff, 00:21:17.264 --> 00:21:21.330 there's some dispute resolutions. That starts with 00:21:21.342 --> 00:21:25.820 giving the other party a notice that there's a dispute. 00:21:25.832 --> 00:21:29.881 And then we recognize the Commission's alternative 00:21:29.893 --> 00:21:33.794 dispute resolution process that's already in the 00:21:33.806 --> 00:21:38.420 regulations and, or if the parties agree, they can choose 00:21:38.432 --> 00:21:42.498 a third-party mediator on go through the mediation 00:21:42.510 --> 00:21:46.642 that way. But if the parties had already included a 00:21:46.654 --> 00:21:51.197 dispute, a different separate dispute resolution process 00:21:51.209 --> 00:21:55.506 in their interconnection agreement, then that process 00:21:55.518 --> 00:21:59.189 will be used instead of what's in the tariff. 00:21:59.214 --> 00:22:03.689 Okay, so here we just want to point out 00:22:03.701 --> 00:22:07.802 that in the rule we've defined renewable gas instead 00:22:07.814 --> 00:22:12.373 of renewable methane, although most applications we expect 00:22:12.385 --> 00:22:16.413 to be bio-methane. We define it as renewable gas in 00:22:16.425 --> 00:22:20.671 an effort to allow different forms of viable renewable 00:22:20.683 --> 00:22:25.174 forms of gas to be used in the process. So, basically, if 00:22:25.186 --> 00:22:29.438 we just defined it as renewable methane, then it would 00:22:29.450 --> 00:22:33.714 exclude other forms of renewable gas such as renewable 00:22:33.726 --> 00:22:38.192 hydrogen, so we wanted to make sure it was more inclusive 00:22:38.204 --> 00:22:42.142 in those respects. This here is how it is actually 00:22:42.154 --> 00:22:46.395 defined. Gas from biogenic or other renewable sources, 00:22:46.407 --> 00:22:50.737 such as bio-gas, biomass or power to gas from renewable 00:22:50.749 --> 00:22:55.374 electricity that has been conditioned or upgraded to comply 00:22:55.386 --> 00:22:59.636 with this rule's gas quality specifications, including 00:22:59.648 --> 00:23:03.892 biomethane. So that is the definition we came up with, 00:23:03.904 --> 00:23:08.005 again, to be more inclusive of other forms of gases. 00:23:08.030 --> 00:23:12.115 Now, I'll talk about the interconnection 00:23:12.127 --> 00:23:15.321 process. The very first step is for a request 00:23:15.333 --> 00:23:18.730 to be made by the potential interconnector. This 00:23:18.742 --> 00:23:22.428 needs to be done in writing. The utility will have a 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.972 fact sheet that will need to be filled out. You'll 00:23:25.984 --> 00:23:29.459 need to put in there the volumes you can deliver, 00:23:29.471 --> 00:23:32.870 what type of gas quality standards you have, any 00:23:32.882 --> 00:23:36.781 seasonal flow rates and things. It'll be, you know, the 00:23:36.793 --> 00:23:40.463 information will be on the fact sheet, and you'll be 00:23:40.475 --> 00:23:43.948 able to follow that. The first step the utilities 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.567 will do, we'll perform an interconnection screening 00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:51.406 study. This is kind of just a feasibility check. We'll 00:23:51.418 --> 00:23:55.091 determine like what is the nearest pipeline that has 00:23:55.103 --> 00:23:58.858 sufficient takeaway capacity to move the gas? And any 00:23:58.870 --> 00:24:02.618 type of pipeline requirements that would be necessary 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:06.182 to get from the interconnector's site to where the 00:24:06.194 --> 00:24:09.790 pipeline is. And the pressure requirements would go 00:24:09.802 --> 00:24:13.548 along with that as well. Next step, after that, would 00:24:13.560 --> 00:24:17.579 be a preliminary engineering study. If the interconnector 00:24:17.591 --> 00:24:20.996 is interested in moving forward. The preliminary 00:24:21.008 --> 00:24:24.745 engineering study, then, we can get into a little bit 00:24:24.757 --> 00:24:28.228 more detail, more specifics on the exact location 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.914 where the receipt point would occur. We'll do a site 00:24:31.926 --> 00:24:35.473 visit to develop a cost estimate, at this point in 00:24:35.485 --> 00:24:38.943 time, a very preliminary design and cost estimate 00:24:38.955 --> 00:24:42.703 would go along with that. The type of facilities that 00:24:42.715 --> 00:24:46.596 would need be installed, how much that would cost, look 00:24:46.608 --> 00:24:50.223 into any type of special conditions that may impact 00:24:50.235 --> 00:24:54.183 the cost. You know, the costs would include design work, 00:24:54.195 --> 00:24:57.876 environmental studies, the cost of the installation, 00:24:57.888 --> 00:25:01.216 and it's kind of a plus 100% minus 50% range on 00:25:01.228 --> 00:25:04.637 the accuracy of the cost estimate at this stage. 00:25:06.262 --> 00:25:10.947 The next stage after that, after the interconnector, if 00:25:10.959 --> 00:25:15.528 you get cost estimate, and you're still interested and you want to move 00:25:15.540 --> 00:25:20.040 forward, then, the detail engineering study, at this point time, after 00:25:20.052 --> 00:25:24.692 that is requested, then utilities can actually put a design together and 00:25:24.704 --> 00:25:29.201 give a more in depth, more accurate cost estimate. That'd be more plus 00:25:29.213 --> 00:25:33.849 50% minus 30%. Get into the, you know, the actual details of the design. 00:25:33.861 --> 00:25:38.364 So when we get to the detailed engineering studies, I see it, you know 00:25:38.376 --> 00:25:42.827 most, for the most part, we're moving forward with the project. We're 00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:47.335 actually spend the money, collecting. The money is collected up front. 00:25:47.347 --> 00:25:51.727 I should have mentioned, with the preliminary engineering study, the 00:25:51.739 --> 00:25:56.558 interconnector's responsible to pay for that. There's a True Up at the end. 00:25:56.570 --> 00:26:01.084 If that, you know, the estimate is not exact on how much that'll cost. 00:26:01.096 --> 00:26:03.112 And same thing with the detailed 00:26:03.124 --> 00:26:05.912 engineering study. You know, there's money 00:26:05.924 --> 00:26:10.499 up front that the interconnector has to pay, to pay for the procurement 00:26:10.511 --> 00:26:15.015 of materials, design costs, engineering costs, other studies and costs 00:26:15.027 --> 00:26:19.289 like that. When we're done with the engineering study, then pretty 00:26:19.301 --> 00:26:23.919 much everything is ready to go, to move forward with construction, which 00:26:23.931 --> 00:26:28.116 is the next step, would be to move forward with construction. The 00:26:28.128 --> 00:26:32.942 rule has the options in there for either the utility to install the receipt 00:26:32.954 --> 00:26:37.209 point, any pipelines, etcetera, or for the interconnector to do it 00:26:37.221 --> 00:26:39.045 themselves. Of course, if the 00:26:39.057 --> 00:26:41.905 interconnecter wants to it themselves, then 00:26:41.917 --> 00:26:46.360 there are certain standards you need to follow, you need to obviously 00:26:46.372 --> 00:26:50.999 work with the utility closely. They'll review the design, have to accept 00:26:51.011 --> 00:26:55.777 the design. The materials will have to be from approved vendors, that sort 00:26:55.789 --> 00:27:00.154 of thing. But ultimately, the utility has to take ownership of these 00:27:00.166 --> 00:27:04.861 facilities. So you know, we need to make sure we're comfortable with what 00:27:04.873 --> 00:27:09.498 is installed by the interconnector. If they choose that option. And then 00:27:09.510 --> 00:27:14.084 last of all is the interconnector may withdraw the request at any time, 00:27:14.096 --> 00:27:18.718 along the process, anywhere along here, before actually flowing gas, you 00:27:18.730 --> 00:27:23.174 can withdraw. At the point of withdrawl, then any money that has been 00:27:23.186 --> 00:27:27.624 given to the utility that has not been spent would be returned to the 00:27:27.636 --> 00:27:32.022 interconnector, that type of thing. So that's basically the process. 00:28:00.201 --> 00:28:05.623 First, I should mention that I'm also representing 00:28:05.635 --> 00:28:10.371 San Diego Gas and Electric as well as SoCal Gas. I forgot to 00:28:10.383 --> 00:28:15.423 mention that on the introductions, as well as Ivan. Section I of 00:28:15.435 --> 00:28:20.643 the interconnection rule addresses cost and the incentive programs 00:28:20.655 --> 00:28:26.003 that are available to help encourage renewable gas interconnections. 00:28:26.015 --> 00:28:30.831 But as Brian mentioned, the interconnector is responsible for 00:28:30.843 --> 00:28:35.575 the installation costs, any expansions, repairs, upgrades or 00:28:35.587 --> 00:28:41.186 modifications that are necessary to accommodate their gas initially and 00:28:41.198 --> 00:28:46.302 throughout the term of the agreement, they're responsible for the 00:28:46.314 --> 00:28:51.507 operation and maintenance cost, but the utility incurs to maintain 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:56.939 interconnector access. Currently, there are two unique O&M, operation 00:28:56.951 --> 00:29:01.840 and maintenance, cost recovery mechanisms. PG&E recovers there 00:29:01.852 --> 00:29:07.269 cost in their backbone shipper rates, SoCal Gas and San Diego recover 00:29:07.281 --> 00:29:12.012 their costs directly from each interconnector, pursuant to a 00:29:12.024 --> 00:29:17.059 schedule is called CPS, California Producer Service, and I think 00:29:17.071 --> 00:29:22.040 Southwest Gas is developing their O&M cost recovery mechanisms. 00:29:24.930 --> 00:29:28.966 The existing incentive programs, that the 00:29:28.978 --> 00:29:33.823 Commissioner mentioned at the beginning that have been extended for five 00:29:33.835 --> 00:29:38.076 years, are in this rule, and you know, will be removed from the 00:29:38.088 --> 00:29:42.674 existing utility rules. The addition that we've proposed, as part of 00:29:42.686 --> 00:29:47.106 this interconnection rule, is that the incentive be made available 00:29:47.118 --> 00:29:51.551 to third party pipelines. We think that provides an opportunity to 00:29:51.563 --> 00:29:55.990 maximize the existing infrastructure and to more cost, effectively 00:29:56.002 --> 00:30:00.574 increase utility receipts of bio-gas, bio-methane and renewable gas. 00:30:11.975 --> 00:30:16.444 On the gas quality side. After our 00:30:16.456 --> 00:30:20.579 discussions and conclusions we made since the 00:30:20.591 --> 00:30:24.976 last update, we decided to keep our Unique Place 00:30:24.988 --> 00:30:29.566 Utility Gas Specifications and, the system, due to 00:30:29.578 --> 00:30:33.871 the following reasons, our system and customers 00:30:33.883 --> 00:30:38.457 equipment are set differently. We have a different 00:30:38.469 --> 00:30:42.678 historical gas, different air district limits, 00:30:42.690 --> 00:30:47.090 and also sulfur or odor limits are different, as 00:30:47.102 --> 00:30:51.483 well as our appliance and set up. We also do not 00:30:51.495 --> 00:30:55.889 want to limit the producers, the local producers 00:30:55.901 --> 00:31:00.737 in California, and ask these different specifications 00:31:00.749 --> 00:31:04.609 will require them to make changes to their 00:31:04.621 --> 00:31:09.005 processes. We also updated some of the renewable 00:31:09.017 --> 00:31:13.503 gas constituents, and we added on carbon monoxide 00:31:13.515 --> 00:31:18.085 as, considered of concern. And we added the carbon 00:31:18.097 --> 00:31:22.499 monoxide trigger level at 0.3%. So it is a limit 00:31:22.511 --> 00:31:26.885 to protect for strength, stress crack corrosion. 00:31:26.897 --> 00:31:30.657 Finally, we have our Renewable Gas Source 00:31:30.669 --> 00:31:35.229 Certification for siloxanes and testing and, in it 00:31:35.241 --> 00:31:39.903 our utilities may do additional siloxane testing at 00:31:39.915 --> 00:31:44.203 their own discretion and cost. So that's one of 00:31:44.215 --> 00:31:48.515 the things that we have in there, also siloxane 00:31:48.527 --> 00:31:52.821 results lower action levels. Um, I'm sorry, any 00:31:52.833 --> 00:31:57.588 siloxane results above lower, above the lower action 00:31:57.600 --> 00:32:01.976 level will not result in reduced siloxane tests. 00:32:01.988 --> 00:32:06.556 Yes, and the Integrity Protective Constituents are 00:32:06.568 --> 00:32:10.860 tested quarterly if above the trigger level and 00:32:10.872 --> 00:32:15.536 reduced to annually when there are four consecutive 00:32:15.548 --> 00:32:19.927 tests below the trigger level. We also added the 00:32:19.939 --> 00:32:24.240 that if Integrity Protected Constituent results 00:32:24.252 --> 00:32:28.548 are above the Lower Action Level three times in 00:32:28.560 --> 00:32:32.688 12 months, then the producer will be shut-in. 00:32:48.513 --> 00:32:54.709 This is a little preview of the work that's been ongoing 00:32:54.721 --> 00:33:00.439 to develop a joint interconnection agreement. We've been, in parallel 00:33:00.451 --> 00:33:06.163 with the development of this interconnection rule, we've been working 00:33:06.175 --> 00:33:12.063 on developing a joint interconnection agreement. Some of the challenges 00:33:12.075 --> 00:33:17.866 are gas quality differences, that Ivan discussed, different regulatory 00:33:17.878 --> 00:33:23.926 backgrounds, as an example, PG&E has a background system that was created 00:33:23.938 --> 00:33:29.571 through separate and unique regulatory process that governs cost and 00:33:29.583 --> 00:33:35.391 allocations. SoCal Gas in San Diego have a separate regulatory history 00:33:35.403 --> 00:33:37.752 that established our backbone 00:33:37.764 --> 00:33:41.427 transportation system. We all had different 00:33:41.439 --> 00:33:47.149 forms and processes for doing the capacity studies of preliminary and 00:33:47.161 --> 00:33:53.436 detailed engineering studies, and the interconnection agreements themselves. 00:33:53.448 --> 00:33:59.163 We had different processes in terms of the interconnector self-build. 00:33:59.175 --> 00:34:05.039 Some utilities allow engineering procurement in construction and others 00:34:05.051 --> 00:34:10.763 just a procurement and construction. So the approval of the extension 00:34:10.775 --> 00:34:16.400 is really going to give us the time that we need to work through all 00:34:16.412 --> 00:34:22.130 those differences and come up with a joint interconnection agreement. 00:34:31.830 --> 00:34:36.434 I'm not done yet. So, as part of the 00:34:36.446 --> 00:34:41.310 interconnection rule and the interconnection agreement, we 00:34:41.322 --> 00:34:46.097 envisioned that there will need to be some changes to the 00:34:46.109 --> 00:34:50.649 other existing rules. First and foremost, the existing 00:34:50.661 --> 00:34:55.350 bio-methane provisions and some of the other rules would 00:34:55.362 --> 00:34:59.817 be removed and consolidated into this interconnection 00:34:59.829 --> 00:35:04.111 rule and agreement. Their updates to each utilities 00:35:04.123 --> 00:35:09.327 definitions. As an example, SoCal Gas in San Diego have a Rule 00:35:09.339 --> 00:35:14.346 One California producer definition that needs to be expanded 00:35:14.358 --> 00:35:18.965 to include renewable gas. It's that California producer 00:35:18.977 --> 00:35:23.084 definition that gives interconnectors a set aside 00:35:23.096 --> 00:35:27.875 preference, and the SoCal Gas in San Diego Triannual Open 00:35:27.887 --> 00:35:32.732 Season Process where takeaway capacity rights are secured. 00:35:32.744 --> 00:35:37.355 And as we work through the interconnection rule, we may 00:35:37.367 --> 00:35:42.136 discover that there are other changes that may need to be 00:35:42.148 --> 00:35:46.682 made as we come to a common interconnection agreement. 00:35:57.445 --> 00:35:58.638 That's our presentation, 00:35:58.650 --> 00:35:59.445 so we can take questions now. 00:36:00.570 --> 00:36:03.770 All right, thank you very 00:36:03.782 --> 00:36:07.070 much. That was a lot of information again, 00:36:07.082 --> 00:36:09.675 I encourage, if you don't have the 00:36:09.687 --> 00:36:13.058 document, the draft tariff in front of you 00:36:13.070 --> 00:36:19.117 and the language in front of you, there are copies on the back table, so that, 00:36:19.129 --> 00:36:21.877 as we're going through questions and 00:36:21.889 --> 00:36:25.264 answers, you're gonna be able to reference 00:36:25.276 --> 00:36:28.554 the part in the tariff where we're talking 00:36:28.566 --> 00:36:31.703 about. Because it is the language itself 00:36:31.715 --> 00:36:37.617 of the tariff that we are going to be discussing right now. This part of the 00:36:37.629 --> 00:36:40.833 workshop is the robust conversation about 00:36:40.845 --> 00:36:43.755 the tariff. And if you have questions 00:36:43.767 --> 00:36:47.054 about how it would apply to your project's 00:36:47.066 --> 00:36:49.905 interconnection process, should this 00:36:49.917 --> 00:36:55.873 tariff get adopted, now is the time to come to the microphones and bring your 00:36:55.885 --> 00:36:59.239 questions to the front. We have the experts 00:36:59.251 --> 00:37:02.159 who know the answers in the room, and 00:37:02.171 --> 00:37:05.446 we should not miss this opportunity to ask 00:37:05.458 --> 00:37:08.439 them why they did what they did. So in 00:37:08.451 --> 00:37:14.501 this presentation, we have gone through all the different parts of the tariff, 00:37:14.513 --> 00:37:20.395 including the gas quality standards, costs, interconnection process, who can 00:37:20.407 --> 00:37:23.610 construct, how to apply, how to withdraw. 00:37:23.622 --> 00:37:26.302 I am sure you have huge numbers of 00:37:26.314 --> 00:37:29.590 questions, and this is the time that we're 00:37:29.602 --> 00:37:32.661 going to set aside to talk about it. So 00:37:32.673 --> 00:37:38.880 who is the first industrious individual who has a question? Thank you very much. 00:37:38.905 --> 00:37:42.685 Is this working? Oh, very good. Hi. My 00:37:42.697 --> 00:37:46.489 name is Jared Smenk. I'm with San Joaquin Renewables. 00:37:46.501 --> 00:37:49.935 We're a project development company developing a 00:37:49.947 --> 00:37:53.815 renewable natural gas project, but based on the use of 00:37:53.827 --> 00:37:57.452 biomass via thermal gasification. So first question 00:37:57.464 --> 00:38:01.241 is does the new rule here allow and accept the use of 00:38:01.253 --> 00:38:05.375 thermal gasification as a conversion process or production 00:38:05.387 --> 00:38:08.890 of renewable gas for injection into the pipeline? 00:38:12.815 --> 00:38:17.888 i'll let Ivan speak to the specifics of the 00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:22.581 gas quality provisions, but it was our intent to open up, 00:38:22.593 --> 00:38:27.673 even more so than the existing rules, thermal gasification and 00:38:27.685 --> 00:38:32.614 other forms of gasification of organic waste that would meet 00:38:32.626 --> 00:38:37.440 the renewable gas definition. So, that's why we propose the 00:38:37.452 --> 00:38:42.519 carbon monoxide limit. And we requested that, in our pleading, 00:38:42.531 --> 00:38:47.189 that carbon weha established some figure limits for other 00:38:47.201 --> 00:38:51.952 constituents. So that's certainly our intent and our hope. 00:38:52.977 --> 00:38:55.976 That sounds very encouraging. 00:38:55.988 --> 00:38:58.797 A follow up question, if I may. Are there 00:38:58.809 --> 00:39:01.881 any additional California rules, definitions, 00:39:01.893 --> 00:39:04.441 potential, for example, in the health 00:39:04.453 --> 00:39:07.503 and safety code, pertaining to definitions of 00:39:07.515 --> 00:39:10.378 bio-methane or bio-gas, that might somehow 00:39:10.390 --> 00:39:13.180 come into conflict or be problematic with 00:39:13.192 --> 00:39:15.727 the rule that you are proposing here? 00:39:22.552 --> 00:39:26.911 We've had some discussions about the 00:39:26.923 --> 00:39:31.762 health and safety codes. I can't give you a definitive answer 00:39:31.774 --> 00:39:36.333 on that issue, but it's something we're gonna have to work 00:39:36.345 --> 00:39:40.684 through. I don't, anyone else has any comments on that? 00:39:40.709 --> 00:39:45.099 Yeah, I would say those codes don't impact 00:39:45.111 --> 00:39:49.801 your ability to interconnect into the utility pipeline with this 00:39:49.813 --> 00:39:54.209 rule. They may impact you in other ways, but we will, we can 00:39:54.221 --> 00:39:58.990 accept the gas as long as it meets the specifications that are in 00:39:59.002 --> 00:40:03.521 the proposed rule. The Health and Safety codes have some stuff 00:40:03.533 --> 00:40:08.137 about what's considered, what could be considered for different 00:40:08.149 --> 00:40:12.458 incentives and things like that, but it's not a barrier for 00:40:12.470 --> 00:40:17.223 actually interconnecting and accepting the gas into the pipeline. 00:40:17.248 --> 00:40:19.573 Okay. Is the extent of the 00:40:19.585 --> 00:40:22.144 impacts related to the incentive programs, or 00:40:22.156 --> 00:40:24.569 are there other potential impacts of health 00:40:24.581 --> 00:40:26.841 and safety code definitions beyond that? 00:40:26.866 --> 00:40:28.593 I'm not aware of any other impacts 00:40:28.618 --> 00:40:31.060 Okay, okay, very good. Thank you. 00:40:31.060 --> 00:40:36.561 I have a follow up question. Can you talk about the 00:40:36.573 --> 00:40:42.329 process that you went through to come up with the additional rules for 00:40:42.341 --> 00:40:47.809 gasification and why all the utilities determined to put this, that 00:40:47.821 --> 00:40:53.703 additional carbon monoxide standard in this tariff, please. And go deep. 00:40:57.428 --> 00:41:00.630 Yes, within the gas company, we 00:41:00.642 --> 00:41:03.857 have previous studies that were done on carbon 00:41:03.869 --> 00:41:06.940 monoxide for gasification. So within the gas 00:41:06.952 --> 00:41:10.378 company, we had previous studies on gasification, 00:41:10.390 --> 00:41:13.714 and they identify carbon outside of one of those 00:41:13.726 --> 00:41:16.722 components that could cause stress, cracks, 00:41:16.734 --> 00:41:20.133 corrosion and therefore the limit of points .03%. 00:41:20.145 --> 00:41:23.420 is just to prevent that stress crack corrosion. 00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:29.514 Would you say that that new addition of carbon monoxide 00:41:29.526 --> 00:41:35.208 specifications in any way limits new projects from interconnecting 00:41:35.220 --> 00:41:40.516 to the pipeline? Or is more of a formal guidance about how the 00:41:40.528 --> 00:41:46.510 interconnection process would work for projects that use gasification? 00:41:46.510 --> 00:41:51.778 I'm not aware of the normal or the average concentrations 00:41:51.790 --> 00:41:56.000 of carbon monoxide that may be present in new gasification 00:41:56.012 --> 00:42:01.106 projects, but definitely those limits are set to protect our pipelines. 00:42:01.118 --> 00:42:05.728 And there may be different limits set by Health and Safety code. 00:42:10.353 --> 00:42:13.550 Can you talk about how, oh, go ahead. 00:42:13.575 --> 00:42:19.078 Jared can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding 00:42:19.090 --> 00:42:23.429 is that carbon monoxide limit is not going to be a problem. 00:42:26.854 --> 00:42:30.838 Okay, This is still on. I just want to 00:42:30.850 --> 00:42:34.686 share with everybody, this is detachable. So if 00:42:34.698 --> 00:42:38.848 you like to just raise your hand, I could bring the 00:42:38.860 --> 00:42:42.702 mic to you. But I do have one question. At 0.3% 00:42:42.714 --> 00:42:46.282 is when you measure it for stress cracks. At 00:42:46.294 --> 00:42:50.192 what percentage of carbon monoxide does it start 00:42:50.204 --> 00:42:54.177 presenting stress in the infrastructure? At 0.3%? 00:42:54.189 --> 00:42:58.253 0.2%? When does it become dangerous to the public? 00:42:59.878 --> 00:43:02.844 So based on the information 00:43:02.856 --> 00:43:05.764 that we have, 0.03% is the level at which 00:43:05.776 --> 00:43:08.642 it will represent a risk to our pipeline. 00:43:08.654 --> 00:43:11.258 Below those levels, it would be okay. 00:43:11.883 --> 00:43:17.360 Yeah, Jerry, just to answer your question. It isn't possible 00:43:17.372 --> 00:43:22.861 for CO to be present, but as long as we know what the maximum when it is or 00:43:22.873 --> 00:43:28.105 trigger levels are we can absolutely adjust the gas to meet the pipeline 00:43:28.117 --> 00:43:31.265 specifications. So that's a very achievable 00:43:31.277 --> 00:43:33.647 objective for us in our project. 00:43:40.672 --> 00:43:43.763 Come on down. 00:43:43.788 --> 00:43:48.814 It's better than the stands. I can look at their eyes. Dr Tom Henze, 00:43:48.826 --> 00:43:51.426 Seal Team Bio Gas. I just want to applaud 00:43:51.438 --> 00:43:53.677 the effort that you guys have done, 00:43:53.689 --> 00:43:58.596 having many of the pioneering scars of the initial interconnection challenges. 00:43:58.608 --> 00:44:01.212 It's come a long way, and I want to thank 00:44:01.224 --> 00:44:03.590 you the IOUs for that, and especially 00:44:03.602 --> 00:44:08.693 applaud the Commission, but I have a few questions. I want to make sure and clear 00:44:08.705 --> 00:44:11.369 up, first of all, I'd like the Commission, 00:44:11.381 --> 00:44:13.372 and I don't know if this is the 00:44:13.384 --> 00:44:18.357 proper forum, to consider increasing and expanding the incentive tariff program 00:44:18.369 --> 00:44:22.917 and make it $400 million. Then, also carefully reconsider looking at the 00:44:22.929 --> 00:44:25.524 reservation system and just make the fund 00:44:25.536 --> 00:44:27.957 large enough, whether it's business or 00:44:27.969 --> 00:44:32.946 government managing for results. We want more bio-methane in the system. That's 00:44:32.958 --> 00:44:37.742 going to impact greenhouse gases today a lot faster if we do that. So if the 00:44:37.754 --> 00:44:42.800 fund is all about getting interconnected and it's large enough, you don't need a 00:44:42.812 --> 00:44:47.531 reservation system that could be gamed. Let's face it, that's happened with 00:44:47.543 --> 00:44:50.083 electric in the past. So that's just one 00:44:50.095 --> 00:44:52.710 comment, but I do like the idea of having 00:44:52.722 --> 00:44:57.509 an opportunity that the projects are gonna have some known funding. I'd also 00:44:57.521 --> 00:45:02.507 like to have the Commission to carefully consider increasing the funding on the 00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:05.176 incentives from 50 to 100% for many of the 00:45:05.188 --> 00:45:07.608 project's because, first of all, there 00:45:07.620 --> 00:45:12.534 are many dairies out there that have the opportunity to interconnect and those 00:45:12.546 --> 00:45:17.205 are clearly identified in the IOU infrastructure. However, in the state of 00:45:17.217 --> 00:45:19.572 California, there hundreds of miles of 00:45:19.584 --> 00:45:22.387 mid-market player pipelines, third parties, 00:45:22.399 --> 00:45:27.304 and I want to applaud the Commission and all the IOUs and changing language in 00:45:27.316 --> 00:45:29.731 Section, I believe It's H, it's on page 00:45:29.743 --> 00:45:32.420 19H, and then section D III, successfully 00:45:32.432 --> 00:45:37.343 interconnect the utility or third party California pipeline system. Leveraging 00:45:37.355 --> 00:45:42.278 installed infrastructure in the state of California can make a huge difference 00:45:42.290 --> 00:45:44.575 for projects to happen today. All the 00:45:44.587 --> 00:45:47.505 existing third party interconnections already 00:45:47.517 --> 00:45:52.433 have a capacity allocation and are ready to take gas. They were taking the gas 00:45:52.445 --> 00:45:55.105 in through the existing gas infrastructure 00:45:55.117 --> 00:45:57.479 in the state and in state production. 00:45:57.491 --> 00:46:02.288 The reach of these third parties could dramatically increase the eligibility 00:46:02.300 --> 00:46:07.020 of dairies that weren't ever even likely or possible to do gas injection or 00:46:07.032 --> 00:46:12.013 maybe even possibly electric because of the ability to uptake either the energy 00:46:12.025 --> 00:46:16.688 or the fuel. I would like the Commission to applaud that change that third 00:46:16.700 --> 00:46:19.306 party interconnects, and they are already 00:46:19.318 --> 00:46:21.562 meeting or will meet, specifically, 00:46:21.574 --> 00:46:24.479 the gas quality standard by having the revised 00:46:24.491 --> 00:46:26.849 COPAC, the agreements to interconnect 00:46:26.861 --> 00:46:28.715 and the gas quality standards, 00:46:28.727 --> 00:46:31.402 specifically the PG&E interconnect in the 00:46:31.414 --> 00:46:36.259 state. So there is this infrastructure out there, and that needs to be looked 00:46:36.271 --> 00:46:38.937 at very carefully because we're not really 00:46:38.949 --> 00:46:41.191 being as ambitious as we could. The 00:46:41.203 --> 00:46:43.799 dairies are out there. The biomass is out 00:46:43.811 --> 00:46:46.419 there. The previous speaker had mentioned 00:46:46.431 --> 00:46:51.223 taking in the taken it from bio-gas, changing the definition, or better yet, 00:46:51.235 --> 00:46:56.084 clarifying it to biomass and biogenic resources. Biomass has to go somewhere. 00:46:56.096 --> 00:47:01.081 We've been facing an all-electric mantra from some of the opponents to all this 00:47:01.093 --> 00:47:03.812 legislation, and the truth is, the organics 00:47:03.824 --> 00:47:06.058 are gonna be here as long as people 00:47:06.070 --> 00:47:10.923 eat, drink and defecate in California. We've got a biomass problem. So if the 00:47:10.935 --> 00:47:13.222 all-electrical people want to not eat 00:47:13.234 --> 00:47:15.907 food grown in California, not defecate in 00:47:15.919 --> 00:47:18.274 California, they're welcome to live in 00:47:18.286 --> 00:47:20.964 California. The air quality will improve, 00:47:20.976 --> 00:47:25.758 and alls I want to see is common sense prevail. Manage for results. Create a 00:47:25.770 --> 00:47:30.501 big fund, not a reservation system. Break the tape, flow the gas. Get paid. 00:47:30.513 --> 00:47:33.175 That's what you would do with an employee. 00:47:33.187 --> 00:47:35.737 That's what you do with your government. 00:47:35.749 --> 00:47:40.299 You're aligning this ?????? with greenhouse gas reduction. You want more 00:47:40.311 --> 00:47:45.152 projects? Make a big enough fund. The reservation system is just gonna end up 00:47:45.164 --> 00:47:50.140 being another instance where it's gonna be gamed, and again, more access to the 00:47:50.152 --> 00:47:52.812 third party pipelines with the streamlined 00:47:52.824 --> 00:47:55.248 rules is fantastic. The utilities have 00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:57.365 done a great job. You've gone from 00:47:57.377 --> 00:48:00.056 multiple years to interconnect to several 00:48:00.068 --> 00:48:02.788 years. But let's be honest. The third party 00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:05.409 is already out there. They were gathering 00:48:05.421 --> 00:48:08.023 the gas through the state. Let's leverage 00:48:08.035 --> 00:48:10.152 that. We're all on the same team. 00:48:10.164 --> 00:48:12.763 Utilities aren't there, the utilities are 00:48:12.775 --> 00:48:15.138 aligned, the state policy is aligned. 00:48:15.150 --> 00:48:17.818 Now we can achieve rateholder, stakeholder 00:48:17.830 --> 00:48:19.824 and citizen benefits that can't 00:48:19.836 --> 00:48:22.431 be accrued. Essentially, what we're doing 00:48:22.443 --> 00:48:24.740 is we're finding a better pathway to 00:48:24.752 --> 00:48:27.105 return money to the dairies, to the Ag 00:48:27.117 --> 00:48:29.917 community, to internalize the externalities 00:48:29.929 --> 00:48:32.590 of production of these materials, of their 00:48:32.602 --> 00:48:35.151 products. You can't do it in a commodity 00:48:35.163 --> 00:48:39.711 driven market. I'm sorry for getting into the economic argument, but the 00:48:39.723 --> 00:48:42.382 all-electric has said there's no guarantee 00:48:42.394 --> 00:48:44.692 any of these tariffs or any of these 00:48:44.704 --> 00:48:49.623 things are gonna increase demand. The truth is, is if you create a demand, you 00:48:49.635 --> 00:48:52.359 will create a supply. It's basic economics. 00:48:52.371 --> 00:48:54.486 All these other arguments against 00:48:54.498 --> 00:48:59.485 the opponents, they're just economically unsound. That's my comment. Thank you. 00:49:00.810 --> 00:49:05.569 Thanks, Tom. Let me just say that I encourage you to please 00:49:05.581 --> 00:49:09.912 submit your comments in writing to the proceeding so that they could 00:49:09.924 --> 00:49:12.044 be taken into consideration by the 00:49:12.056 --> 00:49:14.814 Commission. As we know here in a workshop, 00:49:14.826 --> 00:49:17.454 we're here to discuss the interconnection 00:49:17.466 --> 00:49:19.038 tariff and ask questions 00:49:19.050 --> 00:49:23.356 about why we did certain things in certain ways. And then throughout 00:49:23.368 --> 00:49:27.812 the day, I'm going to continue to request that you take your comments, 00:49:27.824 --> 00:49:32.449 write them down and submit them into the procedding as comments and reply 00:49:32.461 --> 00:49:36.723 comments on the docket for consideration. Thank you. Next question. 00:49:37.448 --> 00:49:41.157 Ken Brennen, speaking for PG&E, not the 00:49:41.169 --> 00:49:44.957 joint utilities. I'd like to support what Tom Henz just 00:49:44.969 --> 00:49:48.683 said. Utility pipelines are built to serve demand, and 00:49:48.695 --> 00:49:52.219 our pipelines are not located in the outlying areas 00:49:52.231 --> 00:49:55.874 where a lot of these dairy projects and landfills and 00:49:55.886 --> 00:49:59.339 some wastewater plants may be located. Third party 00:49:59.351 --> 00:50:02.933 pipes have a reach that PG&E's pipes do not. Back in 00:50:02.945 --> 00:50:06.607 2017 and '18, we developed our interconnect agreement 00:50:06.619 --> 00:50:10.252 with this in mind for a third party interconnect. The 00:50:10.264 --> 00:50:14.113 goals of AB1900 and this rulemaking were put forth prior 00:50:14.125 --> 00:50:17.494 to the contract being developed. So this is a new 00:50:17.506 --> 00:50:21.293 concept, and it would really facilitate these projects, 00:50:21.305 --> 00:50:24.671 I think dramatically, if we could have that third 00:50:24.683 --> 00:50:28.332 party incentive actually become a reality. Because we 00:50:28.344 --> 00:50:31.851 just don't have pipes everywhere. And third parties 00:50:31.863 --> 00:50:35.450 are places where we are not. So it's a good benefit. 00:50:35.450 --> 00:50:39.211 Thank you, Ken. I encourage you to put your 00:50:39.223 --> 00:50:42.807 comments in writing and submit them to the Commission so 00:50:42.819 --> 00:50:46.587 that they could be considered in the proceeding. Utilities, 00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:50.189 can I ask, while we're on the topic, obviously, Ken just 00:50:50.201 --> 00:50:53.949 discussed why PG&E thought it was a good idea to extend the 00:50:53.961 --> 00:50:57.597 incentive dollars to third party pipelines. Can the other 00:50:57.609 --> 00:51:01.489 utilities chime in as to why you agreed so that we could make 00:51:01.501 --> 00:51:05.330 this part of the statewide tariff that you proposed? Please. 00:51:12.255 --> 00:51:16.269 The same statewide goals that we all have 00:51:16.281 --> 00:51:20.108 to increase the amount of renewable gas in our system, to 00:51:20.120 --> 00:51:24.206 help us meet our greenhouse gas goals. We probably don't have 00:51:24.218 --> 00:51:27.986 that third party pipeline infrastructure that PG&E does. 00:51:27.998 --> 00:51:31.800 But there is some. There are some merchants, conventional 00:51:31.812 --> 00:51:35.955 fossil fuel gas plants, that have their own gathering systems. 00:51:35.967 --> 00:51:39.644 And that may create the opportunity for some additional 00:51:39.656 --> 00:51:43.542 bio-gas in our system that we would not otherwise realize. 00:51:48.167 --> 00:51:50.274 Thank you. I think for 00:51:50.286 --> 00:51:52.934 Southwest Gas, we can echo what was already 00:51:52.946 --> 00:51:55.530 been said and realize that, we're a smaller 00:51:55.542 --> 00:51:57.784 player in the state, but we you know, 00:51:57.796 --> 00:52:02.479 whatever works, whatever is working for PG&E right now, you know, we're not, we 00:52:02.491 --> 00:52:04.945 don't want to stand in the way. We really 00:52:04.957 --> 00:52:07.011 support this renewable gas effort. 00:52:08.436 --> 00:52:12.188 Thank you. Right. More questions. Come on down. 00:52:12.813 --> 00:52:16.413 Good afternoon. My name is Darryl Moss from Moss 00:52:16.425 --> 00:52:19.867 Energy Works, we are a dairy bio-methane developer. Have one 00:52:19.879 --> 00:52:23.372 facility currently injecting dairy bio-gas into the SoCalpipe 00:52:23.384 --> 00:52:27.002 and other ones on the way, so we appreciate all your support in 00:52:27.014 --> 00:52:30.616 getting that done. I have two questions, I think, for starters, 00:52:30.628 --> 00:52:33.847 at least, in the narrative at the beginning of the draft 00:52:33.859 --> 00:52:37.694 statewide tariff, it says that the utility will engineer the design 00:52:37.706 --> 00:52:41.158 for the bio-methane interconnection, and then a little later 00:52:41.170 --> 00:52:44.594 on, and I could get the reference, if you need it, I grabbed 00:52:44.606 --> 00:52:48.099 it on my phone here, it says that the utility will design and 00:52:48.111 --> 00:52:51.655 engineer or provide specifications, inspection, and oversight, 00:52:51.667 --> 00:52:55.223 if applicable. And my question is, what is your interpretation 00:52:55.235 --> 00:52:58.549 of the way the tariff is currently designed, regarding the 00:52:58.561 --> 00:53:02.114 ability of interconnector to do its own design and engineering 00:53:02.126 --> 00:53:05.559 under the supervision of the utility? Is that something that 00:53:05.571 --> 00:53:09.130 is at the discretion of the interconnector or not? As written. 00:53:10.255 --> 00:53:12.218 Point of clarification. Are 00:53:12.230 --> 00:53:14.115 you talking about the rules as they exist 00:53:14.127 --> 00:53:16.163 today, or the rules as we imagine them should 00:53:16.175 --> 00:53:18.089 this tariff get adopted by the Commission? 00:53:18.089 --> 00:53:20.981 As we imagine them. This is on 00:53:20.993 --> 00:53:24.150 section F2C of the proposed tariff you circulated. 00:53:24.150 --> 00:53:25.460 thank you 00:53:26.785 --> 00:53:29.799 and I should clarify that the current rule, as we 00:53:29.811 --> 00:53:32.884 understand, it is that the interconnector always has the right to 00:53:32.896 --> 00:53:35.662 choose to design and build their own facility under utility 00:53:35.674 --> 00:53:39.007 supervision. And so I'm wondering what the intention is with this rule. 00:53:44.032 --> 00:53:49.476 So, currently, PG&E does not have the option for the 00:53:49.488 --> 00:53:54.637 interconnector to design. Only to construct an install. So PG&E is 00:53:54.649 --> 00:54:00.022 trying to work towards aligning with the other utilities on this, but 00:54:00.034 --> 00:54:05.111 we're hoping to get there so that we can all be on the same page. 00:54:05.123 --> 00:54:10.321 We're working on that internally right now, but the other utilities 00:54:10.333 --> 00:54:15.618 do have that option as far, as I'm aware, to do the whole thing, the 00:54:15.630 --> 00:54:20.757 design, construction, and install by the interconnector within the 00:54:20.769 --> 00:54:25.907 provisions and set forth by the utility. That answer the question? 00:54:25.932 --> 00:54:30.213 I think so. So do you believe the language as written reflects 00:54:30.225 --> 00:54:34.192 that? Is that the intention of the language that your group has drafted? 00:54:34.204 --> 00:54:38.056 Because it's a little bit vague? It's not, it says as applicable. It's 00:54:38.068 --> 00:54:41.986 not quite clear how that is intended to be meant in the draft language. 00:54:44.411 --> 00:54:49.879 Yes, so it's already approved and applicable for the other 00:54:49.891 --> 00:54:52.868 utilities, but not for PG&E. So we wanted 00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:56.011 to, we didn't want to take away any options 00:54:56.023 --> 00:55:01.710 that were already available. But we're still working through, it takes a lot of 00:55:01.722 --> 00:55:04.630 process and people to make sure that you 00:55:04.642 --> 00:55:07.848 have it put together correctly, and we don't 00:55:07.860 --> 00:55:10.965 want a to misstep in that process, since we 00:55:10.977 --> 00:55:13.882 don't have it in place right now. And so 00:55:13.894 --> 00:55:16.934 we're making sure that PG&E get everything 00:55:16.946 --> 00:55:19.786 ready to go so that we can do it safely 00:55:19.798 --> 00:55:25.399 and make sure things are done within the right standards and that everything's 00:55:25.411 --> 00:55:28.099 done properly and we couldn't do it as 00:55:28.111 --> 00:55:31.238 quickly as we were drafting this proposal. 00:55:31.863 --> 00:55:34.844 Okay, that makes sense. So the as 00:55:34.856 --> 00:55:38.337 applicable means as applicable to the existing utilities 00:55:38.349 --> 00:55:41.763 tariffs. I had one more and this is more for SoCal. The 00:55:41.775 --> 00:55:45.018 narrative incorporates by reference the Interconnect 00:55:45.030 --> 00:55:48.136 Collectible System Upgrade agreement, which is the 00:55:48.148 --> 00:55:51.510 agreement, once you begin procuring equipment that the 00:55:51.522 --> 00:55:54.878 interconnector executes with SoCal to begin purchasing 00:55:54.890 --> 00:55:57.891 equipment. That agreement currently has warranty 00:55:57.903 --> 00:56:01.244 language, which was really difficulty, I'll talk about 00:56:01.256 --> 00:56:04.487 a little bit later, requires warranties that are not 00:56:04.499 --> 00:56:07.662 currently offered by the industry, and the question 00:56:07.674 --> 00:56:10.972 is, is that an agreement that since it's incorporated 00:56:10.984 --> 00:56:14.206 by reference, it would tie this new statewide tariff 00:56:14.218 --> 00:56:17.452 to that agreement? Is that an agreement that there's 00:56:17.464 --> 00:56:20.936 also an effort underway to modify? Because the last time 00:56:20.948 --> 00:56:24.188 around, we had to get a, you know, an advice letter. 00:56:27.813 --> 00:56:30.526 Yes. So one modification 00:56:30.538 --> 00:56:32.954 specifically to the warranty agreement 00:56:32.966 --> 00:56:37.436 that were all gonna be collectively working through, but what SoCal Gas 00:56:37.448 --> 00:56:42.253 in San Diego are envisioning is that you attain warranties equivalent to what 00:56:42.265 --> 00:56:46.959 the utility would have received had they procured the materials themselves. 00:56:48.059 --> 00:56:49.132 Excellent. Thank you. 00:56:52.132 --> 00:56:54.132 Next. Sandy. 00:56:59.357 --> 00:57:02.814 Hi. I'm Sandy Goldberg. 00:57:02.826 --> 00:57:05.634 I'm too short, and I'm an adviser 00:57:05.646 --> 00:57:11.439 for Commissioner Rechtschaffen. And, just a couple observations maybe. 00:57:16.369 --> 00:57:21.791 I think it might be helpful to see some due dates, maybe for 00:57:21.803 --> 00:57:26.962 the screening report to be provided to the applicant and the other reports. 00:57:43.550 --> 00:57:50.978 Okay. Thanks. Also, I thought it was confusing where you have 00:57:50.990 --> 00:57:58.616 to document that you did not get any gas from a hazardous waste facility. I mean, 00:57:58.628 --> 00:58:02.518 generally, the gas is gonna come from the 00:58:02.530 --> 00:58:06.154 site where the interconnection is, but 00:58:06.166 --> 00:58:10.156 maybe not always. Anyway, I thought there, 00:58:10.168 --> 00:58:13.705 it's unclear what documentation would 00:58:13.717 --> 00:58:20.754 actually suffice for that. Could this be clarified? Could the, just sign an 00:58:20.766 --> 00:58:24.649 attestation or what was what was meant by 00:58:24.661 --> 00:58:28.649 that? And then I just wondered whether the 00:58:28.661 --> 00:58:35.889 provision in K1, that the renewable gas specifications in Rule 30 and Rule 21 00:58:35.901 --> 00:58:39.695 apply, whether that is currentlyrequired 00:58:39.707 --> 00:58:43.698 for a bio-methane project interconnection. 00:58:45.323 --> 00:58:50.140 You're shaking your head yes? Yes. Okay. Thank you. 00:58:52.640 --> 00:58:55.580 Also, Sandy, the hazardous waste 00:58:55.592 --> 00:58:58.302 facility requirement that is in our existing 00:58:58.314 --> 00:59:00.868 rules. Right now. So that's something that 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:03.566 we brought in from the other existing rules. 00:59:03.591 --> 00:59:05.923 Okay. Do you have any 00:59:05.935 --> 00:59:08.579 experience yet with how that is satisfied? 00:59:14.904 --> 00:59:18.914 We don't have any experience so far, but I 00:59:18.926 --> 00:59:22.753 think we're envisioning a standardized attestation, as you 00:59:22.765 --> 00:59:26.748 mentioned, where the interconnector certifies, you know, that 00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:30.820 their bio-gas doesn't come from any hazardous waste landfills. 00:59:30.845 --> 00:59:35.230 Great. So, actually, maybe that could be 00:59:35.242 --> 00:59:39.340 put right in here. Or in the interconnection agreement. 00:59:52.150 --> 00:59:53.610 Next? Come on down. 00:59:54.635 --> 00:59:57.551 Sean Edmond of Orstead Power. 00:59:57.563 --> 01:00:00.751 Just a question, that looking at your page 22 on 01:00:00.763 --> 01:00:03.524 your table. Can you speak to the renewable 01:00:03.536 --> 01:00:06.825 standards as it would apply to hydrogen injection? 01:00:08.750 --> 01:00:14.391 First, can we make sure that we're, 01:00:14.403 --> 01:00:19.440 is this table to page 22 that you're referencing 01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.674 Page 22. 01:00:22.699 --> 01:00:25.908 Table two. 01:00:25.933 --> 01:00:29.822 Second page. Starts on page, I guess it's 01:00:29.834 --> 01:00:33.599 table one. Starts on page 21. Continues on to page 22. 01:00:33.624 --> 01:00:38.326 Yes. At this point, the only limit that we have on 01:00:38.338 --> 01:00:43.337 hydrogen is 0.1 percent and we're still trying to determine what will 01:00:43.349 --> 01:00:48.092 be the lower action level and the upper action level for hydrogen. 01:00:48.104 --> 01:00:52.859 That is still being research. And we have included other research. 01:00:52.859 --> 01:00:55.530 Any kind of time frame on when you guys 01:00:55.542 --> 01:00:58.030 were starting to make some conclusions around that? 01:00:58.030 --> 01:01:04.190 We're expecting to have that information soon, but maybe 01:01:04.202 --> 01:01:10.117 next year, maybe next year. I'm not sure about the endpoint for that. 01:01:10.142 --> 01:01:13.655 So Commissioner Rechtschaffen, 01:01:13.667 --> 01:01:16.216 in his opening statement today at 01:01:16.228 --> 01:01:19.147 the workshop, did mention that there is 01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:22.465 documentation coming out of the Commission 01:01:22.477 --> 01:01:25.167 at some point, hopefully soon, about 01:01:25.179 --> 01:01:28.482 creating hydrogen injection standards. And 01:01:28.494 --> 01:01:31.340 when that happens, we encourage you to 01:01:31.352 --> 01:01:34.812 participate in that phase of the proceeding. 01:01:34.837 --> 01:01:38.180 Thank you. 01:01:38.180 --> 01:01:43.311 There's more questions. I totally believe that you are all 01:01:43.323 --> 01:01:46.396 thinking, how did the utilities put together 01:01:46.408 --> 01:01:49.014 an entire interconnection tariff that 01:01:49.026 --> 01:01:51.342 would apply to all the natural gas 01:01:51.354 --> 01:01:54.299 pipelines of the state of California? You 01:01:54.311 --> 01:01:56.565 have a question? Well, I'll ask a 01:01:56.577 --> 01:01:59.528 question. We talked about the application 01:01:59.540 --> 01:02:04.863 process, how to apply to the utilities to request an interconnection. Are the 01:02:04.875 --> 01:02:10.414 utilities intending to create a standard application template that's going to be 01:02:10.426 --> 01:02:13.284 available on all of your websites? That's 01:02:13.296 --> 01:02:15.755 gonna have all the same information 01:02:15.767 --> 01:02:18.630 requested to be submitted via some either 01:02:18.642 --> 01:02:21.107 central or utility specific portal? 01:02:21.132 --> 01:02:26.489 We've had conversations about doing that. We have 01:02:26.501 --> 01:02:31.633 not had time to address that yet, trying to get through this and 01:02:31.645 --> 01:02:36.771 working on the interconnection agreement. But we do want to work 01:02:36.783 --> 01:02:42.553 together and have something that's more uniform for that intake process. 01:02:42.578 --> 01:02:46.720 You think that that's gonna be available for the Commission 01:02:46.732 --> 01:02:49.070 to look at by the time the interconnection 01:02:49.082 --> 01:02:50.885 agreements are available in May? 01:02:50.909 --> 01:02:53.543 I'm not sure yet 01:02:53.568 --> 01:02:58.555 I think that that would be a wonderful time to have this 01:02:58.567 --> 01:03:01.532 interconnection application form available, 01:03:01.544 --> 01:03:04.251 if you were gonna ask me. Come on down. 01:03:11.299 --> 01:03:15.967 There we go. Vince Woratmaja with the Wydeman 01:03:15.979 --> 01:03:20.659 Group on behalf of the California Hydrogen Business Council. I'm 01:03:20.671 --> 01:03:25.561 gonna take it back to the hydrogen point for a second. A, we are so 01:03:25.573 --> 01:03:30.259 glad to see all the positive steps being made board on renewable 01:03:30.271 --> 01:03:35.519 gases, period, including the nuanced definition to ensure that renewable 01:03:35.531 --> 01:03:40.214 hydrogen is a part of this. B, very excited to hear Commissioner 01:03:40.226 --> 01:03:45.264 Rechtschaffen's opening comments about a renewable hydrogen injection 01:03:45.276 --> 01:03:49.532 conversation moving forward. We ????? strongly support the 01:03:49.544 --> 01:03:54.358 joint utility renewable gas connection tariff and really hope that 01:03:54.370 --> 01:03:58.979 it moves along speedily and that we adhere to timely processes, 01:03:58.991 --> 01:04:03.450 so that we can boost the renewable gas markets, including for 01:04:03.462 --> 01:04:08.438 renewable hydrogen. At a more high level, when it comes to renewable 01:04:08.450 --> 01:04:13.411 gas policy frameworks, generally, we would love to see the renewable 01:04:13.423 --> 01:04:18.324 gas tariff be used as a critical element to support other renewable 01:04:18.336 --> 01:04:22.581 gas proceedings that ought to be opened in accordance with 01:04:22.593 --> 01:04:27.428 legislative direction, including Ben Waso's SB1440 from last year, 01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:32.321 which should include renewable hydrogen, as well as Nancy Skinner's 01:04:32.333 --> 01:04:37.153 SB1369, from two years ago, which should enable renewable hydrogen 01:04:37.165 --> 01:04:41.763 for uses, energy storage and to meet SB100 golds. More broadly, 01:04:41.775 --> 01:04:46.530 while millions in this state are suffering the challenges of PSPS 01:04:46.542 --> 01:04:51.425 events, we also encourage that renewable gas tariffs be implemented 01:04:51.437 --> 01:04:56.188 to decarbonize backup power generation, including through the use 01:04:56.200 --> 01:05:01.018 of zero emission fuel cells, critical building energy sources that 01:05:01.030 --> 01:05:05.499 don't depend on the power grid, like gas heating and cooking, 01:05:05.511 --> 01:05:10.249 as well as microgrid applications. Along this lines, we hope that 01:05:10.261 --> 01:05:15.082 the PUC will expedite the separate microgrid proceeding, I believe 01:05:15.094 --> 01:05:19.478 it's SB1339, and include demonstration projects that feature 01:05:19.490 --> 01:05:24.318 hydrogen solutions, such as hydrogen fuel cells and electoralizers 01:05:24.330 --> 01:05:29.359 that will optimize renewable generation in microgrids using renewable 01:05:29.371 --> 01:05:33.907 gases. We do have a question with respect to the definition of 01:05:33.919 --> 01:05:38.522 associated with renewable gas. Will the definition of hydrogen, 01:05:38.534 --> 01:05:43.437 renewable hydrogen, include hydrogen derived from biogenic sources? 01:05:48.162 --> 01:05:52.510 Our thinking is that this could be a long lines 01:05:52.522 --> 01:05:56.752 of the eligible renewable resources defined in a PU Code 399.12, 01:05:56.764 --> 01:06:00.825 Little E, or from any other carbon, slash zero, carbon neutral 01:06:00.837 --> 01:06:04.910 slash zero carbon sources that are approved by the Commission. 01:06:10.910 --> 01:06:15.826 At this time, based on the definition that we have, a biogenic 01:06:15.838 --> 01:06:20.323 source is not outside of what is available or possiblity for hydrogen. 01:06:20.348 --> 01:06:21.711 so it is a possibility 01:06:21.710 --> 01:06:25.630 It should be based on the way we handle it. 01:06:25.655 --> 01:06:27.490 Great. And we will put stuff into writing, Jamie. 01:06:27.490 --> 01:06:32.381 Yeah, I was totally just to encourage 01:06:32.393 --> 01:06:36.660 you to write your comments down, so thank you. 01:06:36.685 --> 01:06:40.405 Thank you so much for your work, 01:06:40.430 --> 01:06:47.458 all right. Looking around for more 01:06:47.470 --> 01:06:55.201 questions. Now's the time. The experts are in the room. 01:06:59.226 --> 01:07:03.560 Good afternoon. This is Bill Graham with DBL 01:07:03.572 --> 01:07:07.629 Inc. We're a developer and a provider of interdigestive 01:07:07.641 --> 01:07:11.692 systems, primarily dairies in the state and nationwide. 01:07:11.704 --> 01:07:15.766 I had a question, there was a new provisions that I saw 01:07:15.778 --> 01:07:19.952 about the blending, and it looks pretty general. What you 01:07:19.964 --> 01:07:23.861 presented so far, at least, in my read on it. Can you 01:07:23.873 --> 01:07:27.836 shed more light or really more more detail on just the 01:07:27.848 --> 01:07:32.040 process itself? And then the timing and anticipated cost. 01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:39.339 That's a good question. I think we've talked 01:07:39.351 --> 01:07:44.225 a little bit about timing. I think, we're thinking, it was the 01:07:44.237 --> 01:07:49.028 either 30 days or 45 days. I'm not sure. But we have had some 01:07:49.040 --> 01:07:53.687 discussions about how long it would take. Somewhere in that 01:07:53.699 --> 01:07:58.409 time frame. You know the process will probably vary a little 01:07:58.421 --> 01:08:03.143 bit by utility, utility by utility. I know at Southwest Gas, 01:08:03.155 --> 01:08:07.638 you know, we're gonna look at, basically, we're trying to 01:08:07.650 --> 01:08:12.611 determine what's the gas in the pipelines gonna look like after 01:08:12.623 --> 01:08:17.553 this gas is mixed in and it's kind of one product not two. And, 01:08:17.565 --> 01:08:22.199 you know, there's a lot to look at because, you know, we're 01:08:22.211 --> 01:08:26.915 looking at maximum flow from the interconnector during times 01:08:26.927 --> 01:08:31.490 of our minimum flow. The directionality of the flow is one 01:08:31.502 --> 01:08:36.667 thing that coming into play. We may have a pipeline that sometimes 01:08:36.679 --> 01:08:41.316 it's flowing north to south. Other times it's flowing south 01:08:41.328 --> 01:08:45.881 to north, and there's a lot to take into play there. We're 01:08:45.893 --> 01:08:50.690 also looking at, you know, how close is next customer and so. 01:08:50.690 --> 01:08:54.411 Maybe a function also of 01:08:54.423 --> 01:08:58.539 what interconnectors proposing to put in? 01:08:58.564 --> 01:09:01.803 Yes, it's definitely, the 01:09:01.815 --> 01:09:05.426 closer the, was proposed that we take, the closer 01:09:05.438 --> 01:09:08.755 it is to the standard, more likely it is that 01:09:08.767 --> 01:09:11.878 we can blend it in, effectively. Also, you 01:09:11.890 --> 01:09:14.987 know, the more the demand on the pipeline, 01:09:14.999 --> 01:09:18.252 that's, that may be the most critical thing. 01:09:18.264 --> 01:09:21.656 There's a lot of, you know, a bigger pipeline, 01:09:21.668 --> 01:09:25.072 lots of flow on it. Ability to blend something 01:09:25.084 --> 01:09:28.314 in and everything to look fine downstream is 01:09:28.326 --> 01:09:31.785 much higher than if you have a smaller pipeline 01:09:31.797 --> 01:09:34.745 as well, so there's a lot of things that 01:09:34.757 --> 01:09:37.933 we'll have to consider. And as yet, I don't 01:09:37.945 --> 01:09:40.962 think any of us have, well, Southwest Gas 01:09:40.974 --> 01:09:44.364 hasn't, so, haven't had to do one yet. So when 01:09:44.376 --> 01:09:47.760 that first one comes along, I think, you know, 01:09:47.772 --> 01:09:50.879 in a way, we gotta figure it out as we go. 01:09:50.904 --> 01:09:56.366 So in the actual rule that we propose, on 01:09:56.378 --> 01:10:02.218 Page 29, the end of section L, we have 30 days for the pipeline 01:10:02.230 --> 01:10:07.789 exception study, and that's within either the preliminary or 01:10:07.801 --> 01:10:13.921 detailed engineering study. So it gives us the 30 days to do that. 01:10:13.946 --> 01:10:16.840 How about the cost? Any of you have cost? 01:10:16.840 --> 01:10:20.436 We don't know what the costs are 01:10:20.448 --> 01:10:23.915 quite yet. I think it may vary for the different 01:10:23.927 --> 01:10:27.316 utilities. And so we haven't got that yet since 01:10:27.328 --> 01:10:30.801 this is new for everybody. We're still trying to 01:10:30.813 --> 01:10:34.554 figure that out. We want to be able to encourage the 01:10:34.566 --> 01:10:38.035 renewable gas into the system. So we didn't want 01:10:38.047 --> 01:10:41.723 to, you know, we didn't want to shut down the idea. 01:10:41.735 --> 01:10:45.140 We want to try to see what we can do, but we're 01:10:45.152 --> 01:10:48.669 not sure it depends on each individual situation, 01:10:48.681 --> 01:10:51.929 and some of them may be more complicated than 01:10:51.941 --> 01:10:55.676 others, depending on the gas that's in the pipeline. 01:10:55.688 --> 01:10:59.012 The gas that's being injected, the demand, all 01:10:59.024 --> 01:11:02.474 these different factors, and they can all impact 01:11:02.486 --> 01:11:06.019 the study too. Some of them may be pretty obvious 01:11:06.031 --> 01:11:09.629 right up front and cost less. And some of them may 01:11:09.641 --> 01:11:12.967 take a deeper level of analysis to figure out. 01:11:12.992 --> 01:11:18.747 A couple of questions on cost from sections 4A and 01:11:18.759 --> 01:11:24.700 B, pages 16 and 17, from a finacability perspective. And a utitlity 01:11:24.712 --> 01:11:29.861 could elect to upgrade systems at it's full discretion. An 01:11:29.873 --> 01:11:35.820 interconnector would be obligated to pay for such expenses And this 01:11:35.832 --> 01:11:41.415 question I would have is, are there boundaries set around where 01:11:41.427 --> 01:11:47.372 those cost may occur? Are they downstream? Or are they just for the 01:11:47.384 --> 01:11:53.322 project? Talk about the injection skid, for example, maybe laterals 01:11:53.334 --> 01:11:59.110 into the pipeline. It seems rather broad, my first reading of it. 01:12:02.610 --> 01:12:07.426 Basic mandate is to recoup the costs we incur in 01:12:07.438 --> 01:12:12.267 providing access, so most of the times, those would be at the point 01:12:12.279 --> 01:12:16.745 of receipt. You know, a typical example might be, you know, an 01:12:16.757 --> 01:12:21.734 instrument is no longer supported by the manufacturer, and you can no 01:12:21.746 --> 01:12:26.778 longer get replacement parts or service, and you might have to replace 01:12:26.790 --> 01:12:31.266 the total flow, for example. There's more and more electronics 01:12:31.278 --> 01:12:35.962 at a point of receipts and the life cycle as you're probably well 01:12:35.974 --> 01:12:40.669 aware is what, 3 to 7 years, before the manufacturing moves on to 01:12:40.681 --> 01:12:45.277 the next version of his equipment. But most often is going to be 01:12:45.289 --> 01:12:50.038 at the point of receipt. But it, costs can be incurred downstream, 01:12:50.050 --> 01:12:55.078 ranging from BTU districts. The Lower BTU content that a renewable gas 01:12:55.090 --> 01:12:59.846 interconnector would provide, depending on the volume that they're 01:12:59.858 --> 01:13:04.670 delivering and how variable that is can dramatically impact the BTU 01:13:04.682 --> 01:13:09.292 content that customers receive and therefore the infrastructure, 01:13:09.304 --> 01:13:14.335 both hardware and software, that's needed to accurately bill customers 01:13:14.347 --> 01:13:18.680 for the reduced BTU content. Those are a couple of examples. 01:13:18.705 --> 01:13:23.369 Another question I had is, on page 17, it says utility 01:13:23.381 --> 01:13:27.727 abandonment shall be an interconnecter's sole expense. Is that at 01:13:27.739 --> 01:13:32.113 the end of the project or anywhere along the way a utlity decides, 01:13:32.125 --> 01:13:36.510 we're abandoning this, by the way, here's a check for, what is it? 01:13:36.510 --> 01:13:40.728 Termination conditions there clearly spelled 01:13:40.740 --> 01:13:44.771 out and will be spelled up in the interconnection agreement. 01:13:44.783 --> 01:13:49.139 But typically it's at the end of the life cycle or an unfortunate 01:13:49.151 --> 01:13:53.056 circumstances. You know, when the interconnector goes into 01:13:53.068 --> 01:13:57.207 bankruptcy or the project's not viable. That site needs to be, 01:13:57.219 --> 01:14:01.369 um, restored to the original site conditions, usually pursuant 01:14:01.381 --> 01:14:05.459 to the easement rights that are associated with it, which are 01:14:05.471 --> 01:14:09.693 sometimes in the hands of the interconnector and sometimes not. 01:14:09.718 --> 01:14:12.760 The states of the utility, it 01:14:12.772 --> 01:14:15.690 looks like it until the election til then, 01:14:15.715 --> 01:14:18.158 Again, those rights 01:14:18.170 --> 01:14:21.003 will be spelled out, and there's, a utility 01:14:21.015 --> 01:14:25.937 is not generally gonna have a right to abandon absent some of non performance 01:14:25.949 --> 01:14:30.770 by the interconnector or some other extenuating circumstance that would make 01:14:30.782 --> 01:14:33.469 it untenable for the utilities to continue 01:14:33.481 --> 01:14:35.615 to operate that point of receipt. 01:14:35.640 --> 01:14:37.870 Might help, be more helpful 01:14:37.882 --> 01:14:39.916 to have more language make that clear. 01:14:39.941 --> 01:14:44.188 I think the interconnection agreements 01:14:44.200 --> 01:14:47.651 will do that, and the current versions of each 01:14:47.663 --> 01:14:51.916 utilities' interconnection agreement really clearly spell 01:14:51.928 --> 01:14:55.679 that out. I can't speak to PG&E's or Southwest Gas 01:14:55.691 --> 01:14:59.336 agreement, but I know the SoCal Gas and San Diego 01:14:59.348 --> 01:15:03.591 agreements, for example, typically have a 15-year primary 01:15:03.603 --> 01:15:07.547 term and the utility has very few rights to terminate 01:15:07.559 --> 01:15:11.735 after the interconnection agreement is up and operating. 01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:15.637 Thank you very much. Thank 01:15:15.649 --> 01:15:18.889 you for the work to appreciate it. 01:15:18.889 --> 01:15:23.603 Hi, Jared Smenk with San Joaquin Renewables, 01:15:23.615 --> 01:15:27.412 again, my question is relevant to section K, the 01:15:27.424 --> 01:15:31.756 renewable gas quality specifications, and specifically, 01:15:31.768 --> 01:15:35.570 table one, where it speaks about the testing for 01:15:35.582 --> 01:15:39.737 gas source. So are these gonna be applicable for, for 01:15:39.749 --> 01:15:43.762 example, gasification projects, right? Nonhazardous 01:15:43.774 --> 01:15:48.167 landfill, dairies and then other, I assumed gasification 01:15:48.179 --> 01:15:52.120 and fall in that other category. Is that accurate? 01:15:52.145 --> 01:15:53.608 Yes, that is correct. 01:15:53.620 --> 01:15:55.588 Gasification will fall under the yellow column. 01:15:55.613 --> 01:15:57.809 Okay. Can you speak to the 01:15:57.821 --> 01:15:59.871 frequency of testing? Is this periodic 01:15:59.883 --> 01:16:03.678 testing or is continuous testing required for these various components? 01:16:03.703 --> 01:16:08.343 It depends on the levels found on the periodic testing. 01:16:08.355 --> 01:16:13.139 So I could be quarterly. And, so it may be quarterly, may be extended to 01:16:13.151 --> 01:16:18.059 semi-annual, to annual. It depends on what constituents are we testing? If 01:16:18.071 --> 01:16:22.795 it's going to be for health constituents or pipleline ???? constituents 01:16:22.820 --> 01:16:26.620 All the testing requirements 01:16:26.632 --> 01:16:29.714 are in section five. Of that section. 01:16:29.726 --> 01:16:35.981 So you can read about that there. It's a couple of pages. A few pages worth. 01:16:36.005 --> 01:16:38.005 Very good. Thank you. 01:16:48.325 --> 01:16:53.072 As I'm looking out into the audience for more 01:16:53.084 --> 01:16:57.920 questions. Tom, you have a question this time? Yes, Excellent. 01:16:57.920 --> 01:17:02.371 Is there a question in that? That should be the 01:17:02.383 --> 01:17:06.697 first question. Section C. Section I. Number five, and C, 01:17:06.709 --> 01:17:11.167 under eligible interconnection. In the dairy pilot program, 01:17:11.179 --> 01:17:15.722 they had a very helpful. In the Section three, they included 01:17:15.734 --> 01:17:20.486 the cost of compression and the Cap X and Op X for compression. 01:17:20.498 --> 01:17:24.517 Was that considered for also maybe extending into the 01:17:24.529 --> 01:17:28.841 new tarrif? That would expand project opportunity, and if 01:17:28.853 --> 01:17:33.101 there's a possibility to include making in the incentive 01:17:33.113 --> 01:17:37.705 portion of the tarrif the eligibility for the same categories 01:17:37.717 --> 01:17:42.024 for reimbursement for the developer, a little bit broader 01:17:42.036 --> 01:17:46.188 category, it would enable some of the projects that are 01:17:46.200 --> 01:17:50.884 smaller, smaller producers, to have an ability to put together 01:17:50.896 --> 01:17:55.417 a cluster. So were those things considered that we could add 01:17:55.429 --> 01:17:59.813 that to it? And the second part of the question is, if the 01:17:59.825 --> 01:18:04.426 answer is yes, then there will be no follow up questions. But 01:18:04.438 --> 01:18:08.679 if the answer is no, then I've got a follow up question. 01:18:12.304 --> 01:18:16.683 I can only answer yes to that. We 01:18:16.695 --> 01:18:21.169 didn't propose any change to the existing legislative 01:18:21.181 --> 01:18:25.649 incentive program. The only change we proposed to the 01:18:25.661 --> 01:18:30.639 existing program was to extend that to third-party pipeline 01:18:30.651 --> 01:18:35.428 interconnections. So under the existing tariffs that were 01:18:35.440 --> 01:18:40.475 mandated by Commission decisions and directed by legislative 01:18:40.487 --> 01:18:45.104 acts, dairy clusters have more costs that are eligible, 01:18:45.116 --> 01:18:49.414 and they have a higher cap. Was that your question? 01:18:49.439 --> 01:18:53.504 Yes. Well, actually, a lot of the biomass 01:18:53.516 --> 01:18:57.141 conversion facilities or the, and the gathering 01:18:57.153 --> 01:19:01.451 systems, I would envision an opportunity where you could 01:19:01.463 --> 01:19:05.396 take biomass, dairy bio mass, have a gathering line 01:19:05.408 --> 01:19:09.779 system that takes bio methane or gas that is sufficiently 01:19:09.791 --> 01:19:13.494 able to be upgraded safely and being injected at 01:19:13.506 --> 01:19:17.656 an injection point safely. And that would, you know, a 01:19:17.668 --> 01:19:21.679 dairy now is more or less located closer to nut or a 01:19:21.691 --> 01:19:25.683 tree or some other biogenic source of materials. You 01:19:25.695 --> 01:19:29.774 could envision more than one technology and more than 01:19:29.786 --> 01:19:33.860 one development sharing a gathering line. And that is 01:19:33.872 --> 01:19:37.806 really again, another leverage of the investment of 01:19:37.818 --> 01:19:41.737 the state. And some of the smaller facilities could 01:19:41.749 --> 01:19:45.982 access that with more ease, especially with compression 01:19:45.994 --> 01:19:49.995 costs and things like that and so, if the answer is, 01:19:50.007 --> 01:19:54.020 I know, it, maybe it wasn't, could it be considered? 01:19:54.032 --> 01:19:58.093 And then alternatively, can the rules, I know this is 01:19:58.105 --> 01:20:02.330 gas, but it is the CPUC, the, our brethren on the other 01:20:02.342 --> 01:20:06.334 side of the table that produce fossil fuels, they're 01:20:06.346 --> 01:20:10.124 allowed the energy production tariff, which under 01:20:10.136 --> 01:20:14.049 PG&E is very valuable in the sense that it's a very 01:20:14.061 --> 01:20:17.911 good price for the electricity for production. And 01:20:17.923 --> 01:20:21.994 the other utilities have their tariffs. I know SDG&E, 01:20:22.006 --> 01:20:25.862 possibly and SCE has, and Edison has their tarrifs 01:20:25.874 --> 01:20:30.088 So make a energy production credit on equal footing for 01:20:30.100 --> 01:20:34.024 the renewable fuels. That's something that probably 01:20:34.036 --> 01:20:38.029 have to be added to a comment later. But it's a good 01:20:38.041 --> 01:20:41.820 one because it puts the fossil fuel and renewable 01:20:41.832 --> 01:20:45.898 fuels on equal footing. Let's subsidize what we want. 01:20:45.910 --> 01:20:49.838 And that's what we need to do. We want to subsidize 01:20:49.850 --> 01:20:53.771 renewable fuels. Okay, so we have to submit another 01:20:53.783 --> 01:20:57.716 written comment to the Commission. Okay. Thank you. 01:20:57.741 --> 01:21:04.955 Did the utilties want to talk about your process 01:21:04.967 --> 01:21:11.192 about considering out adding changes to cost allocation 01:21:11.204 --> 01:21:17.921 to this tariff? And why or why not? Why you may or obviously 01:21:17.933 --> 01:21:23.889 you did not decide to put them into this tariff here. 01:21:28.340 --> 01:21:32.637 More specifically, the question 01:21:32.649 --> 01:21:36.149 is, Tom was asking, sort of about cost 01:21:36.161 --> 01:21:40.015 allocation. We definitely have legislation 01:21:40.027 --> 01:21:43.533 that has requested that the Commission 01:21:43.545 --> 01:21:47.641 look into cost allocation for interconnection 01:21:47.653 --> 01:21:51.136 issues. Is there a reason that you, in 01:21:51.148 --> 01:21:54.803 developing this tariff, didn't just also 01:21:54.815 --> 01:21:58.930 include cost allocation ideas in your filing? 01:22:01.735 --> 01:22:05.025 I don't have a good answer for that. Other than 01:22:05.037 --> 01:22:08.489 we're on a time limit, trying to do we could in the time that we had 01:22:08.514 --> 01:22:12.909 Ah, the time limit answer. That's a fine answer. 01:22:12.921 --> 01:22:17.668 Therefore, parties, if this is something that you want to bring up, I 01:22:17.680 --> 01:22:22.556 encourage you to file comments with the Commission, with your ideas and 01:22:22.568 --> 01:22:27.117 suggestions so that the Commission can take it into consideration. 01:22:27.129 --> 01:22:31.935 Again, this is a living document, but the intention is that this would 01:22:31.947 --> 01:22:36.628 be a living document that could be amended and updated in the future 01:22:36.640 --> 01:22:41.044 as we continue to progress through renewable gas proceedings and 01:22:41.056 --> 01:22:45.880 processes. All right. More questions. Rich. Do you have any questions? 01:22:48.680 --> 01:22:53.828 Okay. Come on. Ask your questions. Sure. You 01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:58.830 definitely can add the comment. Please introduce yourself. 01:22:56.030 --> 01:23:00.802 My name's Carol Burke. I'm with PG&E doing gas 01:23:00.814 --> 01:23:05.443 quality. And there are a couple of things that came up that 01:23:05.455 --> 01:23:10.078 I wanted to talk about. One, there were questions about our 01:23:10.090 --> 01:23:14.494 hydrogen limit. And, when we're developing these limits, 01:23:14.506 --> 01:23:19.204 it was, the assumption, of course, is that this gas is gonna 01:23:19.216 --> 01:23:23.693 be replacing gas that's already within our system. So, we 01:23:23.705 --> 01:23:28.564 have to look at, you know, whether somebody could be receiving 01:23:28.576 --> 01:23:32.827 gas that basically comes from Canada, one day, or this 01:23:32.839 --> 01:23:37.613 other gas the next day. So our limits for hydrogen, you know, 01:23:37.625 --> 01:23:42.178 not only do we have to look at something that's protective 01:23:42.190 --> 01:23:46.893 of our system, but obviously, that your typical consumer can 01:23:46.905 --> 01:23:51.310 actually accommodate this gas without having to make any 01:23:51.322 --> 01:23:56.098 adjustments to their, any of their appliances. So that's one. 01:23:56.110 --> 01:24:00.667 So looking at much greater allowance of hydrogen, like you 01:24:00.679 --> 01:24:05.384 said, that has to be dealt with elsewhere because, you know, 01:24:05.396 --> 01:24:09.804 I can't imagine us, you know, giving huge amounts to, of 01:24:09.816 --> 01:24:14.660 hydrogen to people just are not prepared to take it. So that's 01:24:14.672 --> 01:24:19.143 one. There was also a question about the costs associated 01:24:19.155 --> 01:24:23.852 with taking gas. That might be, we have to blend. So I would 01:24:23.864 --> 01:24:28.263 say basically, if we're taking gas that's not conforming 01:24:28.275 --> 01:24:33.277 to our standards and we have to watch our system more carefully, 01:24:33.289 --> 01:24:37.455 whatever that might mean, whether it means monitoring 01:24:37.467 --> 01:24:42.320 additional, whether that means physical changes to our system, 01:24:42.332 --> 01:24:46.581 those are the costs I think we're talking about having 01:24:46.593 --> 01:24:51.130 to recoup. And then there was one more about the design of 01:24:51.142 --> 01:24:55.692 our our own design of our interconnects. Because I believe 01:24:55.704 --> 01:25:00.710 those interconnects, once they're built, then we take possession 01:25:00.722 --> 01:25:04.969 of them. So, we want to make sure that, and of course, 01:25:04.981 --> 01:25:09.367 at least with the first couple, we're going to make sure 01:25:09.379 --> 01:25:14.009 those are designed according to our standards, though, that 01:25:14.021 --> 01:25:18.722 whatever we're accepting is as if we did build it, design it 01:25:18.734 --> 01:25:23.524 and build it our own. Anyway, that's my only finally comment. 01:25:23.549 --> 01:25:26.849 Thank you. Very helpful. All 01:25:26.861 --> 01:25:29.806 right, I'm gonna ask for more questions 01:25:29.818 --> 01:25:35.570 twice more, and then we're gonna have a, come to a vote and determine whether 01:25:35.582 --> 01:25:41.402 or not I'm gonna give you a 20 minute stretch break now because we're ahead of 01:25:41.414 --> 01:25:44.650 schedule, which is great. That means we are 01:25:44.662 --> 01:25:47.763 presentations can have more time and more 01:25:47.775 --> 01:25:50.487 questions. So this is the second last 01:25:50.499 --> 01:25:53.666 call for questions because we have all of 01:25:53.678 --> 01:25:56.469 our experts in the room and people who 01:25:56.481 --> 01:25:59.654 actually worked on this tariff can answer 01:25:59.666 --> 01:26:02.971 your questions live and in person, right now 01:26:02.983 --> 01:26:05.932 to help inform the comments that you're 01:26:05.944 --> 01:26:11.779 going to draft, write up and file with the Commission by the 21st of November. 01:26:11.804 --> 01:26:14.742 Hi, at the risk of delaying our early 01:26:14.754 --> 01:26:18.039 departure. I had a couple more follow ups. Maybe you could 01:26:18.051 --> 01:26:21.107 help me just a little bit. As I understand it. So what 01:26:21.119 --> 01:26:23.907 we're doing is we're building a statewide, Darryl 01:26:23.919 --> 01:26:27.195 Moss again, Moss Energy Works. We have a statewide tariff, 01:26:27.207 --> 01:26:29.993 but that tarrif is turning around and pointing to 01:26:30.005 --> 01:26:33.287 the existing SoCal, PG&E, Southwest, other interconnection 01:26:33.299 --> 01:26:36.146 tariffs, which so really, we have two tarrifs that 01:26:36.158 --> 01:26:38.875 we will be under because, I guess, the follow-up 01:26:38.887 --> 01:26:42.006 question, and I'll combine these, you can answer in any 01:26:42.018 --> 01:26:44.963 way, is for example, PG&E has a $1 million assurance 01:26:44.975 --> 01:26:48.100 deposit that we'd love to talk about that and have that 01:26:48.112 --> 01:26:51.501 removed. But that's not even really part of this discussion, 01:26:51.513 --> 01:26:54.244 because this tarrif is merely pointing at PG&E's 01:26:54.256 --> 01:26:57.261 tariff, which would be modified via separate process. 01:26:57.273 --> 01:27:00.345 Could maybe somebody help me out on how that all goes? 01:27:00.370 --> 01:27:03.704 What you were mentioning as 01:27:03.716 --> 01:27:06.989 part of the interconnection agreements. It's 01:27:07.001 --> 01:27:10.268 not actually in the rule that's existing. So 01:27:10.280 --> 01:27:13.704 we are working on those common interconnection 01:27:13.716 --> 01:27:16.888 agreements right now. We had started before 01:27:16.900 --> 01:27:20.012 we filed this, but that's what we're gonna 01:27:20.024 --> 01:27:23.203 be coming out with the beginning of May, so 01:27:23.215 --> 01:27:26.260 we'll be addressing that in that process. 01:27:26.260 --> 01:27:30.676 Thank you. This is a PUC 300 level college 01:27:30.688 --> 01:27:34.810 course here, so I'm catching up. So is this statewide 01:27:34.822 --> 01:27:39.507 tarrif then directing the construction of new interconnection 01:27:39.519 --> 01:27:43.383 agreements as well? Or is that a separate process? 01:27:43.408 --> 01:27:47.898 I'm not sure what you mean by 01:27:47.910 --> 01:27:52.130 directing, but yes, it gives you the process 01:27:52.142 --> 01:27:55.935 and the guidance for how to interconnect 01:27:55.947 --> 01:27:59.938 with a utility pipeline for renewable gas. 01:27:59.963 --> 01:28:02.836 Okay, I think you've mentioned a 01:28:02.848 --> 01:28:05.673 couple times that PG&E is working on revising, 01:28:05.685 --> 01:28:08.504 harmonizing it's interconnection agreements. I 01:28:08.516 --> 01:28:11.527 guess my question is, when it's doing that, is it 01:28:11.539 --> 01:28:14.475 receiving guidance from this process, or is that 01:28:14.487 --> 01:28:17.315 a totally separate process that will then take 01:28:17.327 --> 01:28:20.149 public comment and generate and, you know, I'm 01:28:20.161 --> 01:28:23.055 just trying to site. That question makes sense? 01:28:23.080 --> 01:28:27.100 yes. It's part of this process. 01:28:27.112 --> 01:28:30.499 It's the next step in this process. So we 01:28:30.511 --> 01:28:34.376 are, the interconnection agreement should align 01:28:34.388 --> 01:28:37.941 with what's in this rule, and it will align 01:28:37.953 --> 01:28:41.634 across the utilities, which right now they're 01:28:41.646 --> 01:28:45.660 different. So you, when we submit that, that will 01:28:45.672 --> 01:28:49.198 be open for comments. Just as this is right 01:28:49.210 --> 01:28:53.069 now. Once that submitted. Is that the question? 01:28:53.094 --> 01:28:57.318 I think so. So I think what you're saying is that the 01:28:57.330 --> 01:29:01.690 individual utilities' interconnection agreements have to be consistent 01:29:01.702 --> 01:29:05.778 with this tariff. But this tarrif is not directing utilities to do 01:29:05.790 --> 01:29:09.695 anything in their interconnection agreements. Is that accurate? 01:29:09.720 --> 01:29:13.443 Yes. And no. We're gonna have 01:29:13.455 --> 01:29:16.802 a joint interconnection agreement that was 01:29:16.814 --> 01:29:20.154 the same for all of the utilities. Once we 01:29:20.166 --> 01:29:23.596 come out with it. That will be aligned with 01:29:23.608 --> 01:29:27.101 us. So it's not. We're not going to be using 01:29:27.113 --> 01:29:30.773 the ones that are existing today for renewable 01:29:30.785 --> 01:29:34.050 gas interconnections. There will be a new 01:29:34.062 --> 01:29:37.417 one that we're going to draft and propose, 01:29:37.429 --> 01:29:40.453 so, and it will be aligned with what is 01:29:40.465 --> 01:29:44.124 proposed in this proposed rule. So if there's 01:29:44.136 --> 01:29:47.867 comments or questions about the interconnection 01:29:47.879 --> 01:29:51.389 agreements, or you want to get some thoughts 01:29:51.401 --> 01:29:54.895 about those, you know, we welcome your ideas 01:29:54.907 --> 01:29:58.179 as we're in the process of drafting those 01:29:58.191 --> 01:30:01.379 right now, But you also have opportunity 01:30:01.391 --> 01:30:04.670 after we file it to provide your comment. 01:30:04.695 --> 01:30:06.264 Okay. Thank you. 01:30:06.289 --> 01:30:09.793 I can give a little more color to 01:30:09.805 --> 01:30:13.250 that. Just so you know. This is a very big lift, 01:30:13.262 --> 01:30:16.843 taking 4 utilities that have never worked together 01:30:16.855 --> 01:30:20.588 to create something together. The first was aligning 01:30:20.600 --> 01:30:23.966 the interconnection process piece. And then the 01:30:23.978 --> 01:30:27.567 second piece, as our utilities have just described 01:30:27.579 --> 01:30:31.163 aptly, is the agreement piece. And the reason that 01:30:31.175 --> 01:30:34.629 we did it, that it was done in this fashion, was 01:30:34.641 --> 01:30:38.147 because prior to their quest to make a harmonized 01:30:38.159 --> 01:30:41.887 standard process, as you know, it was all different. 01:30:41.899 --> 01:30:45.693 So this is a step by step movement into this standard 01:30:45.705 --> 01:30:48.946 platform for renewable gas. And the utilities 01:30:48.958 --> 01:30:52.607 just filed a request for an extension on the end of 01:30:52.619 --> 01:30:56.210 October, the 22nd, I think, which is on the docket 01:30:56.222 --> 01:30:59.807 card. And the Commission accepted that request for 01:30:59.819 --> 01:31:03.416 an extension in a filing that was submitted to the 01:31:03.428 --> 01:31:07.140 docket card on November 1st. That said, yes, we will 01:31:07.152 --> 01:31:10.805 accept your May 1st filing. So I envision, although 01:31:10.817 --> 01:31:14.394 I'm sure there will be more guidance on the formal 01:31:14.406 --> 01:31:17.924 record, I envision that we will do something sort 01:31:17.936 --> 01:31:21.791 of similar to this when the interconnection agreements 01:31:21.803 --> 01:31:25.248 come out, which will be, there will be a filing. 01:31:25.260 --> 01:31:28.629 There will be a workshop to have a conversation 01:31:28.641 --> 01:31:32.092 about filing. Then there'll be an opportunity to 01:31:32.104 --> 01:31:35.535 provide comments or replies on the docket, which 01:31:35.547 --> 01:31:39.061 is this except for the next piece, so that you'll 01:31:39.073 --> 01:31:42.792 have an opportunity to provide input. I'll echo what 01:31:42.804 --> 01:31:46.253 Jamie said, which is, if you have forethought on 01:31:46.265 --> 01:31:49.770 what you'd like to see, there is a opportunity to 01:31:49.782 --> 01:31:53.651 provide comment here. And you might consider a section 01:31:53.663 --> 01:31:57.526 in that comment because the utilities read everything. 01:31:57.538 --> 01:32:00.708 We read it. They also read it. That helpful? 01:32:00.733 --> 01:32:02.668 Yeah, that's very helpful. Thank 01:32:02.680 --> 01:32:04.587 you. I understand it's a big lift, and I think 01:32:04.599 --> 01:32:06.377 it's more, I'm not, please don't take it as 01:32:06.389 --> 01:32:08.220 criticism. I'm just trying to understand the 01:32:08.232 --> 01:32:10.129 process that someone who doesn't do this every 01:32:10.141 --> 01:32:11.929 day, so it sounds like that's the direction 01:32:11.941 --> 01:32:14.007 we're hoping the effort will go. And we appreciate 01:32:14.019 --> 01:32:15.690 that's where that's where you're headed. 01:32:15.690 --> 01:32:23.380 Thank you. All right. Final final call. Questions. 01:32:23.380 --> 01:32:26.640 Come on. Oh, Yes. More questions. Questions are good. 01:32:26.665 --> 01:32:29.943 Bill Graham, DBL again, just to follow 01:32:29.955 --> 01:32:33.185 on Darryl's question. So I think I have the answers. 01:32:33.197 --> 01:32:36.664 Might ask it anyway. So there's an existing interconnect 01:32:36.676 --> 01:32:39.362 agreement in place. Would this supplant it? 01:32:39.387 --> 01:32:44.312 Yes. So once we have the common interconnection 01:32:44.324 --> 01:32:49.410 agreement, that will be the one that will be used for renewable gas 01:32:49.410 --> 01:32:51.984 Say there's already an a interconnect in place. 01:32:52.009 --> 01:32:54.112 If you already have one signed and 01:32:54.124 --> 01:32:56.080 in place that will most likely be grandfathered. 01:32:56.105 --> 01:33:01.805 (inaudible from off-mic) 01:33:01.830 --> 01:33:06.640 I don't know what that process is going to be for sure. 01:33:06.640 --> 01:33:10.524 Usually you have the option to be grandfathered in. 01:33:10.548 --> 01:33:13.472 Okay. Thank you. 01:33:17.905 --> 01:33:21.665 If you have thoughts about that, please don't hesitate 01:33:21.677 --> 01:33:25.130 to provide them as comments to the proceeding. We will read them 01:33:25.130 --> 01:33:30.901 Are there any additional questions to the interconnection 01:33:30.913 --> 01:33:36.931 process tariff draft before us? It's 135. So we are quite ahead of schedule, 01:33:36.943 --> 01:33:42.955 which is amazing, because that means we're doing a good job. So I would like 01:33:42.967 --> 01:33:48.913 to propose that we all come back and start immediately at two o'clock. That 01:33:48.925 --> 01:33:54.856 would give you 25 minutes to either go grab a little food in our cafeteria. 01:33:54.868 --> 01:34:00.811 Don't stray too far from the Commission. Anything can happen. But if I give 01:34:00.823 --> 01:34:03.545 you 25 minutes, that's your stretch 01:34:03.557 --> 01:34:06.916 break, coffee break, and then we're gonna 01:34:06.928 --> 01:34:12.799 hit our presentations, and then we will get through them all, have all our 01:34:12.811 --> 01:34:18.965 additional questions and answers, and then, let you out when that is done. Can 01:34:18.977 --> 01:34:24.908 I get a raise of hands if we are okay with the two o'clock return? Starting 01:34:24.920 --> 01:34:30.846 on the nose. Two o'clock? Okay. No objections. All right. I'll see you back 01:34:30.858 --> 01:34:36.795 here at two o'clock on the dot. Thank you very much to our utilities. Thank 01:34:36.807 --> 01:34:39.523 you very much to our commenters and 01:34:39.535 --> 01:34:42.964 questioners. Please. Your comments are due 01:34:42.976 --> 01:34:48.755 into the Commission on November 21st. Headings are great. Make them clear 01:34:48.767 --> 01:34:54.461 and concise. Cite tariff language, cite tariff sections. We look forward 01:34:54.473 --> 01:35:00.335 to receiving your comments, and we hope that this informed those comments. 01:37:34.190 --> 01:37:37.979 And pull it together for the next 01:37:37.991 --> 01:37:41.868 part of our workshop in a calm, collected fashion. 01:37:41.880 --> 01:37:45.446 We're gonna move into the interesting, another 01:37:45.458 --> 01:37:49.798 interesting part of today's workshop. We're going to get 01:37:49.810 --> 01:37:53.754 to discuss some really cool projects that are going 01:37:53.766 --> 01:37:57.874 to be working to decarbonize our natural gas pipeline 01:37:57.886 --> 01:38:01.455 system and all of the end uses in the state of 01:38:01.467 --> 01:38:05.429 California. And as we're coming back together, just 01:38:05.441 --> 01:38:09.308 to make sure, you know, we got everybody before we 01:38:09.320 --> 01:38:13.426 start, I'll just give you a few thoughts on renewable 01:38:13.438 --> 01:38:17.311 gas from the Commission. So one of the things that 01:38:17.323 --> 01:38:20.978 I talk about a lot is that California is at the 01:38:20.990 --> 01:38:24.784 very end of the line for our natural gas pipeline 01:38:24.796 --> 01:38:28.601 system. We import 90 to 95, more like 95%, of the 01:38:28.613 --> 01:38:32.564 natural gas, fossil natural gas, that we use in the 01:38:32.576 --> 01:38:36.387 state of California every single day. On average, 01:38:36.399 --> 01:38:40.189 5.6 billion cubic feet of fossil fuel natural gas 01:38:40.201 --> 01:38:44.002 imported from out of state, which means we have a 01:38:44.014 --> 01:38:48.038 large opportunity here in the state of California to 01:38:48.050 --> 01:38:51.934 do something different. The role of the California 01:38:51.946 --> 01:38:55.662 Public Utilities Commission is we make sure that 01:38:55.674 --> 01:38:59.631 natural gas, renewable or otherwise, that gets into 01:38:59.643 --> 01:39:03.441 the pipeline is safe and interchangeable with the 01:39:03.453 --> 01:39:07.416 gas that's already there, so that the end uses, all 01:39:07.428 --> 01:39:11.371 of them, aren't disrupted by the new source of gas. 01:39:11.383 --> 01:39:15.872 Renewable natural gas can come from all sorts of pollution 01:39:15.884 --> 01:39:19.376 sources. Pollution from our dairies, from our 01:39:19.388 --> 01:39:23.502 landfills, from our waste water treatment facilities, 01:39:23.514 --> 01:39:27.307 from our piles of agricultural wastes that aren't 01:39:27.319 --> 01:39:30.973 consumed. I've learned about, I've learned from 01:39:30.985 --> 01:39:34.785 some growers in Central Valley, that about 10% of 01:39:34.797 --> 01:39:38.609 every crop cycle gets put into a pile to rot, and 01:39:38.621 --> 01:39:42.560 all these varieties of waste methane gas, CH4, that 01:39:42.572 --> 01:39:46.522 goes directly into the atmosphere as an atmospheric 01:39:46.534 --> 01:39:50.251 warming pollutant, waste gas, could be captured, 01:39:50.263 --> 01:39:54.220 cleaned up and shoved into our natural gas pipeline 01:39:54.232 --> 01:39:58.098 system and used in all of the applications instead 01:39:58.110 --> 01:40:01.988 of the fossil fuel natural gas that we import from 01:40:02.000 --> 01:40:05.795 out of state. So the renewable natural gas docket 01:40:05.807 --> 01:40:09.691 is a place where we get to talk about all this and 01:40:09.703 --> 01:40:13.719 we get to think about how renewable natural gas from 01:40:13.731 --> 01:40:17.456 all of its variety of sources can be cleaned up, 01:40:17.468 --> 01:40:21.338 injected into the pipeline system, decarbonize our 01:40:21.350 --> 01:40:25.004 natural gas pipeline system, and a lower carbon 01:40:25.016 --> 01:40:28.503 intensity natural gas system is gonna help to 01:40:28.515 --> 01:40:32.622 decarbonize the sector, which is totally in line with 01:40:32.634 --> 01:40:36.431 SB100, which is the goal of a decarbonized energy 01:40:36.443 --> 01:40:40.633 sector here in the state of California. Now that we're 01:40:40.645 --> 01:40:44.433 back, I'll end my vamp and I'll just let you know 01:40:44.445 --> 01:40:48.397 that, here on my left, we have just the next steps. 01:40:48.409 --> 01:40:52.354 We were gonna do at the end. But I'm gonna put this 01:40:52.366 --> 01:40:56.248 up at the end also. Right now, we have sort of two 01:40:56.260 --> 01:41:00.355 formal dockets moving through the process, two formal 01:41:00.367 --> 01:41:04.322 documents on the docket moving through the process. 01:41:04.334 --> 01:41:08.206 So the draft renewable gas interconnection tariff, 01:41:08.218 --> 01:41:11.951 which we have just talked about done Q & A, that 01:41:11.963 --> 01:41:15.524 was filed on November 1st. Comments are due on 01:41:15.536 --> 01:41:19.641 November 21st. Reply comments are due on the 31st. We 01:41:19.653 --> 01:41:23.600 tried to give a good chunk of time between comments 01:41:23.612 --> 01:41:27.419 and replies because this is a lot of information. 01:41:27.431 --> 01:41:31.527 Also, there is a proposed decision on the reservation 01:41:31.539 --> 01:41:35.267 system. Comments are also due on the 21st. Reply 01:41:35.279 --> 01:41:39.229 comments or due, on that docket, on the 26th. I bet 01:41:39.241 --> 01:41:42.975 you're gonna ask me, could we put them together? 01:41:43.000 --> 01:41:47.936 That's not what you're gonna ask me. Well, I'm gonna 01:41:47.948 --> 01:41:53.112 answer the question that I just asked first. And then, then you can ask 01:41:53.124 --> 01:41:58.497 questions. So you might be asking, can we put our comments together in one 01:41:58.509 --> 01:42:03.822 filing? I'm not in charge, but if I were going to provide any guidance, I 01:42:03.834 --> 01:42:08.971 would say, use the titling of your document wisely to enable the reader 01:42:08.983 --> 01:42:13.988 of your document to know what's in it. Use headings wisely so that we 01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:19.358 know what you're talking about. If you decide to combine. And if you don't 01:42:19.370 --> 01:42:24.453 combine and you want to do separate filings, that's totally fine also. 01:42:24.478 --> 01:42:26.863 Okay, Jamie, you had a question. 01:42:26.875 --> 01:42:28.831 You gotta come to the microphone though. 01:42:42.856 --> 01:42:44.951 November only has 30 days in it, so can we have till 12-3? 01:42:44.976 --> 01:42:51.371 Oh, probably. That's a good point. I didn't even 01:42:51.196 --> 01:42:52.984 and that's Thanksgiving week. 01:42:56.580 --> 01:43:01.578 So I guess it would be December 01:43:01.590 --> 01:43:06.600 1st is not November 31st. So that'll get fixed. 01:43:06.624 --> 01:43:08.524 That's a Sunday. 01:43:08.525 --> 01:43:09.740 Then it's due on Monday. 01:43:09.740 --> 01:43:11.628 Okay. Monday after Thanksgiving? 01:43:11.653 --> 01:43:16.590 Yes. I guess that is. But you have until the end of the day. 01:43:14.990 --> 01:43:18.088 (inaudible response from crowd) 01:43:20.089 --> 01:43:23.735 I would definitely say if you have a request 01:43:23.747 --> 01:43:27.525 on a different filing date, the way that you make that request 01:43:27.537 --> 01:43:31.068 is you email the judge and you CC the entire service list. 01:43:31.080 --> 01:43:34.684 You don't make requests, requests, or ask questions without 01:43:34.696 --> 01:43:38.285 CCing everybody in the service list. And you could find the 01:43:38.297 --> 01:43:42.018 service list on the website, you can go to the CPUC Renewable 01:43:42.030 --> 01:43:45.504 Natural Gas website. You can find the service list tab on 01:43:45.516 --> 01:43:48.822 the right, or you go through the main CPUC website and 01:43:48.834 --> 01:43:52.414 look under Proceedings, then you can go to the service list 01:43:52.426 --> 01:43:56.197 button, and then you can control+F 1302008 to find our service 01:43:56.209 --> 01:43:59.735 list. And then you could pick the comma delimited list for 01:43:59.747 --> 01:44:03.345 all of the email addresses. If you have any questions about 01:44:03.357 --> 01:44:06.879 that, my information is also on the CPUC Renewable Natural 01:44:06.891 --> 01:44:10.306 Gas website. Be more than happy to guide you through the 01:44:10.318 --> 01:44:14.026 process again. Okay. Thank you so much for pointing that out. 01:44:14.038 --> 01:44:17.459 All right, so we're going to get into our presentations. 01:44:17.459 --> 01:44:21.122 Our first presenter today is Darryl Moss from Moss Energy. 01:44:21.134 --> 01:44:24.808 I'm gonna put up your PowerPoint, and whenever you're ready, come on down. 01:44:37.833 --> 01:44:41.975 Good afternoon, everyone. Great work, Jamie, keeping us moving 01:44:41.987 --> 01:44:45.980 forward. This is inspiring to see the speed we're moving. My name's Darryl 01:44:45.992 --> 01:44:50.140 Moss, I'm the CEO of Moss Energy Works. We're a company based out of Redding, 01:44:50.152 --> 01:44:54.312 California. Together with our sister companies, we're about 50 employees that 01:44:54.324 --> 01:44:58.415 do nothing but build, own, and operate manure digesters. So we're here today 01:44:58.427 --> 01:45:00.653 to talk a little bit about our experience 01:45:00.665 --> 01:45:02.530 getting dairy bio-methane into the 01:45:02.542 --> 01:45:04.765 pipeline. While I wait for my slides will 01:45:04.777 --> 01:45:06.746 tell you a little bit more about our 01:45:06.758 --> 01:45:10.868 company. We were founded in 2010. We've been building digesters, starting in 01:45:10.880 --> 01:45:12.936 Washington in 2007, about 25 completed, 01:45:12.948 --> 01:45:15.229 mostly on the West Coast so far, and it's 01:45:15.241 --> 01:45:17.091 been a great experience to get into 01:45:17.103 --> 01:45:19.443 California. When we started in Washington, 01:45:19.455 --> 01:45:23.225 it was kind of a slow, gradually developing industry. But the state of 01:45:23.237 --> 01:45:25.089 California has provided very strong 01:45:25.101 --> 01:45:27.445 incentives and very strong public guidance 01:45:27.457 --> 01:45:31.436 that we want more of these digesters. So that is where our effort has been 01:45:31.448 --> 01:45:33.406 focused and that's where we've grown, 01:45:33.418 --> 01:45:35.760 working with a lot of folks in the various 01:45:35.772 --> 01:45:37.460 utilities industries, regulatory 01:45:37.472 --> 01:45:39.811 departments, that are trying to make these 01:45:39.823 --> 01:45:42.103 projects a reality. Including Jaime, who's 01:45:42.115 --> 01:45:44.140 trying to make our slides of reality. 01:45:48.115 --> 01:45:50.115 (inaudible from audience) 01:45:50.140 --> 01:45:53.236 Yeah, thanks. I don't know any jokes, you 01:45:53.248 --> 01:45:56.302 know? So, I probably can just, I might just start on my 01:45:56.314 --> 01:45:59.362 agenda, so we don't waste all your time. Are we waiting 01:45:59.374 --> 01:46:02.325 for someone? For those of you who don't know, a dairy 01:46:02.337 --> 01:46:05.545 digester is formed by creating an anaerobic environment on 01:46:05.557 --> 01:46:08.614 manure. So dairy farmers are already pretty smart. They 01:46:08.626 --> 01:46:11.458 use the manure from their cows as an irrigation and 01:46:11.470 --> 01:46:14.807 fertilizer for their crops, so I don't have visual aids, but 01:46:14.819 --> 01:46:17.862 if you can picture of a dairy farm works, the cows make 01:46:17.874 --> 01:46:20.874 manure. That manure is stored in large ponds until the 01:46:20.886 --> 01:46:24.100 growing season, the spring or the summer. Then that manure 01:46:24.112 --> 01:46:27.118 is spread on the fields to make the crops grow. It's a 01:46:27.130 --> 01:46:30.341 natural fertilizer, it has nitrogen and phosphorus and, of 01:46:30.353 --> 01:46:33.466 course, water in it. And all those things make the crops 01:46:33.478 --> 01:46:36.475 grow. The crops are harvested and fed back to the cows 01:46:36.487 --> 01:46:39.442 to make milk and, of course, more manure, which makes 01:46:39.454 --> 01:46:42.384 more crops, which makes more milk. So a dairy farm is 01:46:42.396 --> 01:46:45.502 already a fairly well self-contained closed loop, to use 01:46:45.514 --> 01:46:48.559 that physics term, and what we're doing in the digester 01:46:48.571 --> 01:46:51.683 industry is we're capitalizing on that existing nutrient 01:46:51.695 --> 01:46:54.792 handling system that happens at the dairy. The manure is 01:46:54.804 --> 01:46:57.803 already being emitted. It's already being captured and 01:46:57.815 --> 01:47:00.863 stored in a pond, and so in California, very good work. 01:47:00.875 --> 01:47:03.990 The dairy digester technology we use is overwhelmingly a 01:47:04.002 --> 01:47:06.933 covered lagoon digester, which you see in the picture 01:47:06.945 --> 01:47:09.998 there, is essentially in very, in layman's terms, a big 01:47:10.010 --> 01:47:13.220 tarp over a pond. There are other ways to build digesters. 01:47:13.232 --> 01:47:16.182 We built them in colder climates out of concrete, out 01:47:16.194 --> 01:47:19.292 of steel, different designs. But in this situation, this 01:47:19.304 --> 01:47:22.360 is how it's done in California. So what, you see, there 01:47:22.372 --> 01:47:25.421 is a fairly large California dairy with about 5000 cows 01:47:25.433 --> 01:47:28.495 on it, and all of their manure going into the digester. 01:47:28.520 --> 01:47:31.509 Now we'll move through my slides. I'm 01:47:31.521 --> 01:47:34.410 gonna talk a little bit about digesters, some case 01:47:34.422 --> 01:47:37.361 studies of our RNG injection, and then a bit of our 01:47:37.373 --> 01:47:40.323 recommendations on the current PUC process. As I've 01:47:40.335 --> 01:47:43.271 described before, this is a fairly small dairy, not 01:47:43.283 --> 01:47:46.288 far from Sacramento, but it gives you a good visual. 01:47:46.300 --> 01:47:49.355 Barns are built on a slope, the manure runs downhill. 01:47:49.367 --> 01:47:52.378 You all know what runs downhill, and cow manure does 01:47:52.390 --> 01:47:55.324 run downhill. It gets put in that big covered pond, 01:47:55.336 --> 01:47:58.283 and in this case, you see, there's a small building 01:47:58.295 --> 01:48:01.349 where that gas is burned as fuel to make a generator. 01:48:01.361 --> 01:48:04.313 That particular facility supplies power to SMUD, to 01:48:04.325 --> 01:48:07.433 Sacramento. But the industry is becoming more and more 01:48:07.445 --> 01:48:10.451 focused on gas, and you see the crops all around the 01:48:10.463 --> 01:48:13.179 farm. So that's a fairly standard, older, small 01:48:13.191 --> 01:48:16.317 California dairy. When you put the manure from one cow 01:48:16.329 --> 01:48:19.202 into a covered lagoon for two years, so that cow's 01:48:19.214 --> 01:48:22.383 manure over the course of the year, will generate about 01:48:22.395 --> 01:48:25.161 two barrels of oil worth of usable energy in the 01:48:25.173 --> 01:48:28.064 form of natural gas. And we'll also remove about 4 01:48:28.076 --> 01:48:30.952 to 5 tons of CO2 equivalent, which is more or less 01:48:30.964 --> 01:48:33.853 the same as one car. So, in terms of achieving the 01:48:33.865 --> 01:48:36.860 state's greenhouse gas goals, for every time you put 01:48:36.872 --> 01:48:39.880 a dairy digest, a cow, and their manure into a dairy 01:48:39.892 --> 01:48:42.994 digester, you're removing essentially one car from the 01:48:43.006 --> 01:48:45.950 road for the purposes of greenhouse gas accounting. 01:48:45.962 --> 01:48:49.013 This is a little time line of the California digester 01:48:49.025 --> 01:48:51.918 industry. If you start at the bottom, in 2013, you 01:48:51.930 --> 01:48:54.807 can see the history of projects being built in the 01:48:54.819 --> 01:48:57.823 state. On the right side is our company, Moss Energy 01:48:57.835 --> 01:49:00.889 Works. Some of those facilities we own, some of those 01:49:00.901 --> 01:49:03.910 facilities the dairy farmer himself owns or herself. 01:49:03.910 --> 01:49:06.517 And we operate on their behalf. 01:49:06.529 --> 01:49:09.037 On the other side are other companies in the 01:49:09.049 --> 01:49:11.494 industry. What you'll notice is two things. 01:49:11.506 --> 01:49:14.187 First of all, the accelerating pace of digester 01:49:14.199 --> 01:49:16.475 development as you get to the top of the 01:49:16.487 --> 01:49:19.108 graph. Right now, we're bringing a new project 01:49:19.120 --> 01:49:21.737 online about every 60 days. And then the other 01:49:21.749 --> 01:49:24.153 thing you'll notice is the transition from 01:49:24.165 --> 01:49:26.774 power projects, which are the little lightning 01:49:26.786 --> 01:49:29.183 bolts, to gas pipeline projects, which are 01:49:29.195 --> 01:49:31.698 the little pipe symbols. Over three-quarters 01:49:31.710 --> 01:49:34.281 of what our company is currently doing is now 01:49:34.293 --> 01:49:36.793 directed to natural gas. Power made a lot of 01:49:36.805 --> 01:49:39.540 sense. There were long term contracts available, 01:49:39.552 --> 01:49:41.891 but natural gas currently makes even more 01:49:41.903 --> 01:49:44.532 sense. There's a lot of incentives and efforts 01:49:44.544 --> 01:49:46.929 to try to get cow gas for use as a vehicle 01:49:46.941 --> 01:49:49.561 fuel, not least among those the fact that then 01:49:49.573 --> 01:49:52.131 you're offsetting conventional fuel, and that 01:49:52.143 --> 01:49:54.601 is a goal the state has. The first facility 01:49:54.613 --> 01:49:57.112 in the state, and so far the only one that's 01:49:57.124 --> 01:49:59.411 injecting dairy bio-gas into the utility 01:49:59.423 --> 01:50:01.873 pipeline, is located in Pixley, California. 01:50:01.885 --> 01:50:04.514 That's Tulare County. It's actually within the 01:50:04.526 --> 01:50:06.800 boundaries of an ethanol refinery called 01:50:06.812 --> 01:50:09.545 Calgreen Ethanol, our company joint venture with 01:50:09.557 --> 01:50:12.229 Calgreen to build this facility called Calgreen 01:50:12.241 --> 01:50:14.868 Dairy Fuels. And so what we did is build a gas 01:50:14.880 --> 01:50:17.437 cleanup and conditioning facility right there 01:50:17.449 --> 01:50:20.073 in the ethanol plant. That made a lot of sense 01:50:20.085 --> 01:50:22.704 because there was already a SoCal Gas pipeline 01:50:22.716 --> 01:50:25.067 there, and there was already a large need 01:50:25.079 --> 01:50:27.519 for natural gas in other places as well. We 01:50:27.531 --> 01:50:30.094 did that by building a low pressure pipeline. 01:50:30.106 --> 01:50:32.664 In fact, here's the map. That is, so far, how 01:50:32.676 --> 01:50:35.246 big the project is. What we're doing is we're 01:50:35.258 --> 01:50:37.756 building individual covered lagoon digesters 01:50:37.768 --> 01:50:40.223 on individual dairies. So I showed you that 01:50:40.235 --> 01:50:42.908 picture early on. I believe we have nine up and 01:50:42.920 --> 01:50:45.437 running as of today. We have at least 18 are 01:50:45.449 --> 01:50:48.114 gonna be online by the end of next year. And we 01:50:48.126 --> 01:50:50.859 think this group will grow to over 20 digesters, 01:50:50.871 --> 01:50:53.318 all of which produce their raw gas and then 01:50:53.330 --> 01:50:55.678 deliver the gas through that low pressure 01:50:55.690 --> 01:50:58.190 pipeline to the central cleanup facility. So 01:50:58.202 --> 01:51:00.602 the red there is the completed pipeline. I 01:51:00.614 --> 01:51:03.121 think we're up a little bit over 20 miles of 01:51:03.133 --> 01:51:05.539 pipe all across Tulare County and the blue 01:51:05.551 --> 01:51:08.159 is all the expansions being planned because we 01:51:08.171 --> 01:51:10.736 found that once you have an RNG facility that 01:51:10.748 --> 01:51:13.474 is successfully interconnected with the utility. 01:51:13.486 --> 01:51:15.889 That's the hard part is getting that done. 01:51:15.901 --> 01:51:18.568 Getting the sequence done, getting it financed, 01:51:18.580 --> 01:51:21.260 getting through the bio-methane interconnection 01:51:21.272 --> 01:51:23.777 process. Building the gas cleanup equipment. 01:51:23.789 --> 01:51:26.027 Once you have that, the marginal effort 01:51:26.039 --> 01:51:28.593 to add more dairy digesters is fairly modest, 01:51:28.605 --> 01:51:31.003 particularly the covered lagoons which are 01:51:31.015 --> 01:51:33.575 very cheap and easy to build pretty fast. And 01:51:33.587 --> 01:51:36.159 so we are expanding this cluster very rapidly 01:51:36.171 --> 01:51:38.784 while we're trying to also build new injection 01:51:38.796 --> 01:51:40.973 points. But as I'm gonna describe, the 01:51:40.985 --> 01:51:43.548 timeline for building new injection points is 01:51:43.560 --> 01:51:46.135 really the key on how fast we can deploy more 01:51:46.147 --> 01:51:48.587 dairy bio-gas. So this project, it'll be at 01:51:48.599 --> 01:51:51.163 least four million gallons equivalent of CNG, 01:51:51.175 --> 01:51:53.620 probably much more than that by the time we 01:51:53.632 --> 01:51:56.202 expand it. Cost of something like that, about 01:51:56.214 --> 01:51:58.824 51 million. You'll note that the digesters are 01:51:58.836 --> 01:52:01.291 the most expensive part because this budget 01:52:01.303 --> 01:52:03.696 is for 12 digesters, then you got a lot of 01:52:03.708 --> 01:52:06.336 bio-gas cleanup. You have some pipeline costs. 01:52:06.348 --> 01:52:08.845 The interconnection is actually the smallest 01:52:08.857 --> 01:52:11.366 cost. The cost is still millions of dollars, 01:52:11.378 --> 01:52:13.993 but the timeline is the key here. That is what 01:52:14.005 --> 01:52:16.465 the interconnection impacts on our industry 01:52:16.477 --> 01:52:19.088 are, the cost is less important than the time. 01:52:19.100 --> 01:52:21.669 One of the ways we've been able to expand the 01:52:21.681 --> 01:52:24.243 Calgreen Dairy Fuels project and we expect to 01:52:24.255 --> 01:52:26.661 do others, is to, once you have a facility 01:52:26.673 --> 01:52:29.225 where you can receive gas and get it into the 01:52:29.237 --> 01:52:31.913 utility pipeline, is to truck gas from isolated 01:52:31.925 --> 01:52:34.316 dairies that are too far away to pipe. And 01:52:34.328 --> 01:52:36.730 so a few months ago, we brought online the 01:52:36.742 --> 01:52:39.297 state's first virtual dairy bio gas pipeline, 01:52:39.309 --> 01:52:41.709 where we're hauling compressed gas from an 01:52:41.721 --> 01:52:44.394 isolated farm back into the central hub of this 01:52:44.406 --> 01:52:47.035 cluster, and we expect to have four or five of 01:52:47.047 --> 01:52:49.489 those running by the end of next year. It's 01:52:49.501 --> 01:52:51.899 a little faster to develop. There are some 01:52:51.911 --> 01:52:54.248 inefficiencies, of course, of hauling and 01:52:54.260 --> 01:52:57.167 compressing gas, so it's not ideal. We would rather 01:52:57.179 --> 01:53:00.015 connect everything by pipeline, but the technology 01:53:00.027 --> 01:53:02.260 exists to haul that gas, trucks are all 01:53:02.272 --> 01:53:04.723 powered by CNG, hauling CNG to put into the 01:53:04.735 --> 01:53:07.310 pipeline, so it's a great option. It may even 01:53:07.322 --> 01:53:09.986 be that we end up delivering more gas via truck 01:53:09.998 --> 01:53:12.562 than by pipeline simply because you can build 01:53:12.574 --> 01:53:15.020 it faster. Building pipelines in California 01:53:15.032 --> 01:53:17.602 takes a long time. There's a sequence issues. 01:53:17.614 --> 01:53:20.225 There's union issues. They're just things that 01:53:20.237 --> 01:53:22.748 slow you down. It results in a good project, 01:53:22.760 --> 01:53:25.209 but it's not fast. Next slide. Just to step 01:53:25.221 --> 01:53:27.626 back a little bit. This map is showing all 01:53:27.638 --> 01:53:30.079 the current dairy digester injection points 01:53:30.091 --> 01:53:32.545 in the country that are injecting renewable 01:53:32.557 --> 01:53:35.228 natural gas from dairy or swine. And as you can 01:53:35.240 --> 01:53:37.644 see, there's five or six of them. Not that 01:53:37.656 --> 01:53:40.156 many. And the blue, and I'm sure I'm missing 01:53:40.168 --> 01:53:42.569 a lot. Blue and yellow are the planned and 01:53:42.581 --> 01:53:45.311 imminent projects. As you can see, there's a ton 01:53:45.323 --> 01:53:47.786 of them planned in the Central Valley, some 01:53:47.798 --> 01:53:50.350 from my company, some from others. But you'll 01:53:50.362 --> 01:53:52.983 notice that most of these are out of the state 01:53:52.995 --> 01:53:55.442 and that is because of that time structure. 01:53:55.454 --> 01:53:57.968 You might hear this theme, speed. It is much 01:53:57.980 --> 01:54:00.591 faster to build a project in many other states 01:54:00.603 --> 01:54:02.836 than here in California, but we do have 01:54:02.848 --> 01:54:05.577 other advantages in the state that we're working 01:54:05.589 --> 01:54:07.939 together to improve. Obviously, getting a 01:54:07.951 --> 01:54:10.561 standardized tariff might be one of the things 01:54:10.573 --> 01:54:13.195 that would help us speed up, so I'm glad we're 01:54:13.207 --> 01:54:15.712 undertaking this. But all these projects, by 01:54:15.724 --> 01:54:18.072 the way, shipped their gas to California. 01:54:18.084 --> 01:54:20.697 That's where it goes. Finally, my thoughts and 01:54:20.709 --> 01:54:23.223 recommendations on tariff and the preceding, 01:54:23.235 --> 01:54:25.742 really, we have two of them. One of them was 01:54:25.754 --> 01:54:28.329 mentioned a little earlier. It's not specific 01:54:28.341 --> 01:54:30.947 to this proceeding, but one of the things that 01:54:30.959 --> 01:54:33.299 California has done a very good job of is 01:54:33.311 --> 01:54:35.701 incentivizing financial incentives to make 01:54:35.713 --> 01:54:38.561 projects move away from doing nothing or move away 01:54:38.573 --> 01:54:41.294 from generating power and instead try to produce 01:54:41.306 --> 01:54:43.705 renewable natural gas which five years ago 01:54:43.717 --> 01:54:46.165 was kind of a high risk, somewhat uncertain 01:54:46.177 --> 01:54:48.637 endeavor for those of our industry, and now 01:54:48.649 --> 01:54:50.978 it's become the main thing we want to do. 01:54:50.990 --> 01:54:53.387 Part of that's because of the AB 2313 CPUC 01:54:53.399 --> 01:54:56.237 reimbursement program, which is mentioned earlier. 01:54:56.249 --> 01:54:58.596 That is a reimbursement of after you have 01:54:58.608 --> 01:55:01.108 incurred your costs and gone online. A dairy 01:55:01.120 --> 01:55:03.799 digester can apply for $3 million or a group of 01:55:03.811 --> 01:55:06.428 Dairy Digest can apply for $5 million of their 01:55:06.440 --> 01:55:09.014 costs. And that is the funds that we received 01:55:09.026 --> 01:55:11.689 from SoCal for the Calgreen Dairy Fuels project 01:55:11.701 --> 01:55:14.097 that we completed last year. It's based on 01:55:14.109 --> 01:55:16.835 injection date, but there's a couple of problems 01:55:16.847 --> 01:55:19.137 with that. It's a limited pool of funds, 01:55:19.149 --> 01:55:21.648 which, of course, all funds are limited, but 01:55:21.660 --> 01:55:24.059 it does limit how much projects can get in 01:55:24.071 --> 01:55:26.743 there. And the proposed decision, which we will 01:55:26.755 --> 01:55:29.328 be commenting on in writing, does set the bar 01:55:29.340 --> 01:55:31.837 very low for a new program to reserve funds. 01:55:31.849 --> 01:55:34.415 So I think an earlier gentleman discussed the 01:55:34.427 --> 01:55:36.986 danger of gaming that system, which we agree. 01:55:36.998 --> 01:55:39.345 If you make it too easy to reserve funds, 01:55:39.357 --> 01:55:41.970 then the funds just all get tied up by whoever 01:55:41.982 --> 01:55:44.494 is the fastest draw reserving them. And then 01:55:44.506 --> 01:55:46.956 nothing happens. And that is something that 01:55:46.968 --> 01:55:49.487 happens all the time in our industry is that 01:55:49.499 --> 01:55:52.273 public funds are secured and held and go nowhere. 01:55:52.285 --> 01:55:54.681 And so we will always be in favor and will 01:55:54.693 --> 01:55:57.362 be submitting comments to try to make sure that 01:55:57.374 --> 01:55:59.776 the program incentivizes projects, getting 01:55:59.788 --> 01:56:02.454 online, getting built, getting gas in the line. 01:56:02.466 --> 01:56:04.865 And that's what we're all looking for. The 01:56:04.877 --> 01:56:07.605 second program, which is run here by Miss Ormand 01:56:07.617 --> 01:56:09.966 is the pilot project, well her and others 01:56:09.978 --> 01:56:12.419 I'm sure. The pilot projects was a one time 01:56:12.431 --> 01:56:14.772 system that has a lot of benefits for us. 01:56:14.784 --> 01:56:17.175 Instead of a reimbursement for some of our 01:56:17.187 --> 01:56:19.926 interconnection costs. It just means the utility 01:56:19.938 --> 01:56:22.438 pays them directly and then rate bases them. 01:56:22.450 --> 01:56:25.018 So obviously it's, that's nice. We don't have 01:56:25.030 --> 01:56:27.424 to raise the funds for it. Of course, it's 01:56:27.436 --> 01:56:30.065 problems. It's a one time cycle. So there were 01:56:30.077 --> 01:56:32.518 six projects selected, and that's great for 01:56:32.530 --> 01:56:35.206 those six projects. But then after that we have 01:56:35.218 --> 01:56:37.664 to go back to something else. So one of the 01:56:37.676 --> 01:56:40.134 things we would like to continue discussing 01:56:40.146 --> 01:56:42.813 as a community is when you get a pilot project, 01:56:42.825 --> 01:56:45.169 and our company received two of them, the 01:56:45.181 --> 01:56:47.630 size of that pilot project is fixed in time 01:56:47.642 --> 01:56:50.159 to the date you applied, two years ago, now, 01:56:50.171 --> 01:56:52.725 almost. And so if you later expand that pilot 01:56:52.737 --> 01:56:55.302 project, there is no provision in the program 01:56:55.314 --> 01:56:57.986 to allow you to get more pilot project funding. 01:56:57.998 --> 01:57:00.234 So of course you'll have to come out of 01:57:00.246 --> 01:57:02.858 pocket for that, which is fair. But one of the 01:57:02.870 --> 01:57:05.327 things we think the industry or perhaps the 01:57:05.339 --> 01:57:08.070 PUC should clarify is that if a developer invest 01:57:08.082 --> 01:57:10.488 additional funds in expanding that private 01:57:10.500 --> 01:57:12.940 project that those investments are eligible 01:57:12.952 --> 01:57:15.459 for reimbursement under AB 2313. So we would 01:57:15.471 --> 01:57:18.252 love to see a proceeding on that someday, perhaps 01:57:18.264 --> 01:57:20.609 work together on it because it appears to 01:57:20.621 --> 01:57:23.176 us is the key is we're not gonna develop five 01:57:23.188 --> 01:57:25.698 clusters and five new injection points every 01:57:25.710 --> 01:57:28.326 year. That's just not gonna happen. But we can 01:57:28.338 --> 01:57:30.854 expand the ones we have, and we can grow the 01:57:30.866 --> 01:57:33.251 industry that way. So we think that's key. 01:57:33.263 --> 01:57:35.772 Last slide, second to last slide. I promised 01:57:35.784 --> 01:57:38.343 you some case studies. This is three projects 01:57:38.355 --> 01:57:40.813 that our company either has developed or is 01:57:40.825 --> 01:57:43.437 developing. On the far left is Calgreeen Dairy 01:57:43.449 --> 01:57:45.849 Fuels, which began processing some gas and 01:57:45.861 --> 01:57:48.199 2018 and injecting some in early 2019. It 01:57:48.211 --> 01:57:51.120 interconnected with SoCal gas under Rule 39 the old 01:57:51.132 --> 01:57:53.684 standard before the BTU standard was changed. 01:57:53.696 --> 01:57:56.316 It was not a pilot project. That system didn't 01:57:56.328 --> 01:57:58.606 exist yet. You can see the standards for 01:57:58.618 --> 01:58:01.300 injection. It was a 990 BTU standard, which was 01:58:01.312 --> 01:58:03.755 very difficult. But we achieved it. And the 01:58:03.767 --> 01:58:06.334 critical point of the Calgreen facility is it 01:58:06.346 --> 01:58:08.739 was both engineered and constructed by the 01:58:08.751 --> 01:58:11.380 owner. So although the obviously SoCal gas was 01:58:11.392 --> 01:58:13.946 supervising, providing standards, inspecting, 01:58:13.958 --> 01:58:16.635 collaborating all the time, the actual work was 01:58:16.647 --> 01:58:19.262 performed by a private engineer and by private 01:58:19.274 --> 01:58:21.622 contractors installing equipment that was 01:58:21.634 --> 01:58:24.246 approved by the utility. A total time from the 01:58:24.258 --> 01:58:26.827 first application of the first piece of paper 01:58:26.839 --> 01:58:29.234 to the approved finalized injection was 23 01:58:29.246 --> 01:58:31.652 months. If it hadn't been for some startup 01:58:31.664 --> 01:58:34.104 issues about sampling, for Siloxane test we 01:58:34.116 --> 01:58:36.679 had a very weird thing. If you didn't already 01:58:36.691 --> 01:58:39.025 know this, if you have the tiniest bit of 01:58:39.037 --> 01:58:41.719 silicone based oil in one piece of equipment on 01:58:41.731 --> 01:58:44.452 one part of your project, you will fail Siloxane 01:58:44.464 --> 01:58:46.696 test. That's all it takes, a little bit 01:58:46.708 --> 01:58:49.436 getting past to seal. So it took us a few months 01:58:49.448 --> 01:58:51.853 to figure that out. We had to stop out the 01:58:51.865 --> 01:58:54.362 silicone based oil for natural oil, and then 01:58:54.374 --> 01:58:56.771 we were able to pass the siloxane test and 01:58:56.783 --> 01:58:59.454 otherwise it would have been perhaps 19 months. 01:58:59.466 --> 01:59:01.814 Something like that. And you see the cost 01:59:01.826 --> 01:59:04.549 there, a million seven. Moving one column to the 01:59:04.561 --> 01:59:07.074 right, Lakeside pipeline is a facility we're 01:59:07.086 --> 01:59:09.424 developing in near Hanford, Kings County, 01:59:09.436 --> 01:59:11.954 California, that is also connecting to SoCal 01:59:11.966 --> 01:59:14.574 Gas under the newer version of Rule 39. It has 01:59:14.586 --> 01:59:17.151 been selected as a pilot project. Now you see 01:59:17.163 --> 01:59:19.777 the standards there are more or less the same, 01:59:19.789 --> 01:59:22.135 although there's been a new change in the 01:59:22.147 --> 01:59:24.758 BTU requirement. That project's engineered and 01:59:24.770 --> 01:59:27.170 constructed by the utility, and that is no 01:59:27.182 --> 01:59:29.799 fault of anybody. But just the nature of these 01:59:29.811 --> 01:59:32.105 things is they take time. It looks to us 01:59:32.117 --> 01:59:34.727 like it's gonna be 35 months between the first 01:59:34.739 --> 01:59:37.193 application of the first piece of paper and 01:59:37.205 --> 01:59:39.877 the date we go online Commission installed. Now 01:59:39.889 --> 01:59:42.404 they're all things were all working together 01:59:42.416 --> 01:59:44.806 on improving, but that looks like what the 01:59:44.818 --> 01:59:47.330 schedule's gonna be. Some of that is because 01:59:47.342 --> 01:59:49.849 the project originally started without pilot 01:59:49.861 --> 01:59:52.380 project funding and then had to switch over. 01:59:52.380 --> 01:59:55.604 And so we were pushing the project as hard as 01:59:55.616 --> 01:59:58.905 we possibly could. We're paying all the fees, signing all the 01:59:58.917 --> 02:00:02.254 contracts, even though we knew it Might get selected for Pilot 02:00:02.266 --> 02:00:05.349 project. We were hoping that that would cause the project 02:00:05.361 --> 02:00:08.481 to move faster once it was selected for pilot project, and 02:00:08.493 --> 02:00:11.573 perhaps it did. But it's all brand new program, brand new 02:00:11.585 --> 02:00:14.659 standing up, so hard to accelerate that. We'll see how it 02:00:14.671 --> 02:00:17.863 does. Finally, Merced Pipeline on the far right. That is in 02:00:17.875 --> 02:00:21.146 Southern merced County. That's connecting with PG&E. And it's 02:00:21.158 --> 02:00:24.230 actually connecting to PG&E through a third party private 02:00:24.242 --> 02:00:27.520 pipeline run by California Energy Exchange. So that's kind of 02:00:27.532 --> 02:00:30.769 all three of us working on that one. That's also under their 02:00:30.781 --> 02:00:34.110 newer version, Rule 21. It's also selected as a pilot project. 02:00:34.122 --> 02:00:37.356 You can see the standards there. It appears that we're about 02:00:37.368 --> 02:00:40.383 on the same schedule, 35 months. It's hard to say. We're 02:00:40.395 --> 02:00:43.582 waiting for someone to impress us and speed up the process. 02:00:43.607 --> 02:00:46.598 It had the same issue that we had initially 02:00:46.610 --> 02:00:50.020 applied, under this standard Rule 21, and then later transition to 02:00:50.032 --> 02:00:53.335 pilot projects, so that may have delayed some of the process. So 02:00:53.347 --> 02:00:56.559 but we love these programs. They're very excellent for helping 02:00:56.571 --> 02:00:59.819 us deploy more and more of these projects. But the speed is the 02:00:59.831 --> 02:01:03.041 key. Questions on this before I go to the last slide? Or maybe 02:01:03.053 --> 02:01:06.257 I'll hit my last slide and then you can ask questions. You see 02:01:06.269 --> 02:01:09.382 the project costs are similar between the two utilities. The 02:01:09.394 --> 02:01:12.743 standards are similar between the two utilities. It's really just 02:01:12.755 --> 02:01:16.116 a question of, you know, working through the process and everyone 02:01:16.128 --> 02:01:19.279 learning as fast as they can. Our two recommendations for the 02:01:19.291 --> 02:01:22.403 tariff and I mentioned them earlier during the robust Q&A, I 02:01:22.415 --> 02:01:25.920 believe it was called, was first of all, the standard, the narrative 02:01:25.932 --> 02:01:29.194 section, says that we're gonna use the interconnect collectible 02:01:29.206 --> 02:01:32.411 system upgrade agreement. That caused us significant delays on 02:01:32.423 --> 02:01:35.487 our first project at Calgreen. First of all, establishing a 02:01:35.499 --> 02:01:38.898 collective, or a what did you call it, a collectible takes months. 02:01:38.910 --> 02:01:42.067 I don't know why it just does. Perhaps that could be sped up, 02:01:42.079 --> 02:01:45.178 but we just couldn't get that paperwork done, which meant we 02:01:45.190 --> 02:01:48.607 couldn't procure equipment, which means we couldn't know the whole 02:01:48.619 --> 02:01:51.971 daisy chain of cause and effect. And so that system works slowly. 02:01:51.983 --> 02:01:55.244 Perhaps it could be improved, and then the warranty provisions, 02:01:55.256 --> 02:01:58.511 as written, were not possible. They couldn't be achieved. There 02:01:58.523 --> 02:02:01.535 were no warranties available anywhere in the industry that 02:02:01.547 --> 02:02:04.897 would meet the requirements in that. And so that was fixed by one 02:02:04.909 --> 02:02:08.016 time advice letter from the CPUC, which we're very grateful. 02:02:08.028 --> 02:02:11.435 Everyone worked diligently to make that happen. As I heard it from 02:02:11.447 --> 02:02:14.611 Jamie earlier, it sounds like PG&E is working on changing the 02:02:14.623 --> 02:02:17.976 standards where the warranty requirements for a self build, which 02:02:17.988 --> 02:02:21.404 is what this was, would be the same as the utilities' own warranty 02:02:21.416 --> 02:02:24.672 requirements. And if that's done, that would work perfectly. So 02:02:24.684 --> 02:02:27.800 we think that's a great idea, just needs to get implemented. 02:02:27.800 --> 02:02:30.798 So we're all heading the right direction 02:02:30.810 --> 02:02:33.389 here, finally, on self designed, as I mentioned 02:02:33.401 --> 02:02:36.405 earlier, it seems to us not every project is gonna want 02:02:36.417 --> 02:02:39.218 a self design. It may not even be the best way, and 02:02:39.230 --> 02:02:42.015 maybe in the future, that the utility design option 02:02:42.027 --> 02:02:44.825 is superior in every way. But all I can say is from 02:02:44.837 --> 02:02:47.628 the one project we've done that was faster and we'd 02:02:47.640 --> 02:02:50.444 like to make sure we keep that option very brightly 02:02:50.456 --> 02:02:53.078 highlighted as an option that the interconnector 02:02:53.090 --> 02:02:55.994 always has. We had to push fairly hard to insist that 02:02:56.006 --> 02:02:58.903 we did have the right to self design and a self built 02:02:58.915 --> 02:03:01.502 because there were some folks at the utility of 02:03:01.514 --> 02:03:04.301 said No, you don't have that right And we had to go 02:03:04.313 --> 02:03:07.004 back to seep You decision, 07 to 8 to nine there, 02:03:07.016 --> 02:03:09.917 which says we do, regardless of what the tariff says, 02:03:09.929 --> 02:03:12.680 that is the right of the interconnector. And so it 02:03:12.692 --> 02:03:15.690 ultimately that got done and that was done well and the 02:03:15.702 --> 02:03:18.444 team worked well together. But we think it will be 02:03:18.456 --> 02:03:21.137 very important, particularly in Section F, to see 02:03:21.149 --> 02:03:24.166 there, that it's very clear that I know we have to work 02:03:24.178 --> 02:03:27.018 on these interconnection agreements and everyone has 02:03:27.030 --> 02:03:29.721 to publish them. But there has to be no ambiguity 02:03:29.733 --> 02:03:32.849 that that is a right of the of the utility interconnector 02:03:32.861 --> 02:03:35.395 the customer provided they followed the design 02:03:35.407 --> 02:03:38.300 specifications, oversight inspections, et cetera that 02:03:38.312 --> 02:03:41.162 that has to be a right open to them, if for no other 02:03:41.174 --> 02:03:43.857 reason than it gives people a choice, which keeps 02:03:43.869 --> 02:03:46.780 everyone motivated to move quickly. So that's ah, say 02:03:46.792 --> 02:03:49.580 at the bottom interconnector sole discretion toe to 02:03:49.592 --> 02:03:52.338 select the self build self design option should be 02:03:52.350 --> 02:03:55.197 explicit in this state white terror. And that is the 02:03:55.209 --> 02:03:57.907 end of my presentation. Don't take any questions. 02:04:02.432 --> 02:04:09.043 Go ahead. Question and answer time. 02:04:09.068 --> 02:04:17.992 One of your previous slide that showed the three columns? Yes, that 02:04:18.004 --> 02:04:22.630 one, on the Merced pipeline oxygen is at 02:04:22.642 --> 02:04:27.393 0.10%, the other is at 0.2%. Why is that? 02:04:27.418 --> 02:04:31.281 Those are the pre existing tarrifs the 02:04:31.293 --> 02:04:34.881 two utilities have. It's not a killer. Obviously, 02:04:34.893 --> 02:04:38.547 we would like to see it 0.2 I don't know if that's 02:04:38.559 --> 02:04:42.153 under consideration, but we can meet 0.1 as well. 02:04:42.178 --> 02:04:46.021 Anybody from the utility? You 02:04:46.033 --> 02:04:50.056 wanna have a comment on that for thinking about 02:04:50.068 --> 02:04:54.253 how the future could look. You're all still here. 02:04:54.265 --> 02:04:57.958 Everyone is moving very quickly. All right, 02:04:57.983 --> 02:05:01.327 Come on down, Tom. All right. 02:05:01.352 --> 02:05:06.263 Congratulations on the speed and getting all those installed and 02:05:06.275 --> 02:05:09.012 getting the injection point. On the Merced 02:05:09.024 --> 02:05:11.581 one for the dairy Pilot. If you had the 02:05:11.593 --> 02:05:16.829 third party interconnection in place and all the rules clear, how much time would 02:05:16.841 --> 02:05:21.706 have been saved, do you think it would be directly through the third party? 02:05:21.730 --> 02:05:24.490 Great question. Our process, 02:05:24.502 --> 02:05:27.211 if there was no utility involvement, takes 02:05:27.223 --> 02:05:30.179 at least 18 months to build. So simply because 02:05:30.191 --> 02:05:32.590 SEQA takes that long, gas procurement 02:05:32.602 --> 02:05:35.302 takes that long. And that's from the first 02:05:35.314 --> 02:05:37.963 piece of paper, not from construction and 02:05:37.975 --> 02:05:40.745 contracting. If we have been able to inject 02:05:40.757 --> 02:05:43.475 directly into the third party pipeline and 02:05:43.487 --> 02:05:46.500 they'd have been able to receive it immediately 02:05:46.512 --> 02:05:48.718 on day one, we probably could have 02:05:48.730 --> 02:05:51.624 shaved a year or more off the timeline. As it 02:05:51.636 --> 02:05:54.353 is, their facility needs to be upgraded to 02:05:54.365 --> 02:05:57.130 meet the latest biomethane standards, which 02:05:57.142 --> 02:05:59.855 is gonna be paid for by the pilot project, 02:05:59.867 --> 02:06:02.765 which is awesome. The pilot program is great. 02:06:02.777 --> 02:06:05.243 Just the speed, speed is what matters. 02:06:05.268 --> 02:06:09.146 And also, even though the the current pilot program 02:06:09.158 --> 02:06:12.500 doesn't appear to allow expansion after you submitted, 02:06:12.512 --> 02:06:15.909 would you not be able to apply also for the bio methane 02:06:15.921 --> 02:06:19.452 incentive as well? Or there Is there a conflict with that 02:06:19.488 --> 02:06:21.831 as we read the bio methane 02:06:21.843 --> 02:06:23.918 and send it there is not a conflict, 02:06:23.930 --> 02:06:28.484 but it's not entirely clear. It would be nice if someone were to clarify that as 02:06:28.496 --> 02:06:30.995 we see it, any expansions would be eligible. 02:06:31.007 --> 02:06:32.960 But I'm not the expert. And I'm at 02:06:32.972 --> 02:06:35.310 risk unless someone clarifies that for us 02:06:35.322 --> 02:06:37.560 that speaks with the voice of the CPUC. 02:06:39.784 --> 02:06:41.784 Thank you very much. 02:06:45.085 --> 02:06:47.400 This is Jamie Randolph from 02:06:47.412 --> 02:06:49.890 PG&E. So I want to go back to the question about 02:06:49.902 --> 02:06:52.249 the different quality. In the pleading that we 02:06:52.261 --> 02:06:54.720 submitted with the draft rule, the proposed rule 02:06:56.945 --> 02:07:01.594 if you go to, there's a section that talked about, Section 02:07:01.606 --> 02:07:06.188 B, little D, renewable gas quality specifications update, 02:07:06.200 --> 02:07:10.697 in the section of retention of each utilities historical 02:07:10.709 --> 02:07:15.376 gas quality specifications. We talk a little bit about why 02:07:15.388 --> 02:07:20.020 it is that we have different quality specifications and it 02:07:20.032 --> 02:07:24.598 has to do with the California production that has been in 02:07:24.610 --> 02:07:29.248 place for a long time, and the gas that we get from in the 02:07:29.260 --> 02:07:33.673 different territories, it has different specifications. 02:07:33.699 --> 02:07:37.622 And so we have to protect our 02:07:37.634 --> 02:07:41.569 pipeline based on what's coming into the system 02:07:41.581 --> 02:07:45.592 to make sure that the safety of the pipeline is, 02:07:45.604 --> 02:07:49.544 the integrity of the pipeline is still. Carol ? 02:07:54.169 --> 02:07:57.024 Carol, you want to come down, please? 02:07:57.048 --> 02:08:01.509 The oxygen in the C02 specifications. 02:08:03.557 --> 02:08:06.590 Where you asking about the oxygen just or CO2? 02:08:06.614 --> 02:08:08.614 (inaudible from audience) 02:08:20.500 --> 02:08:24.577 Yeah, the oxygen, too. Both of 02:08:24.589 --> 02:08:28.678 those are gonna in the presence of water. 02:08:28.690 --> 02:08:32.969 They're gonna accentuate any corrosion? So, 02:08:32.981 --> 02:08:37.368 um, and CO2, that limits been, both of those 02:08:37.380 --> 02:08:41.727 have been in place for many, many years, and 02:08:41.739 --> 02:08:45.710 those were to protect our pipelines from 02:08:45.722 --> 02:08:53.675 corrosion. We do have areas where we had more moisture. California has. So you're 02:08:53.615 --> 02:08:58.142 setting these limits for that reason? So why they're 02:08:58.154 --> 02:09:02.976 different? The oxygen, I can't speak to that, really, why it's 0.1. 02:09:02.988 --> 02:09:07.627 And theirs is 0.2, they might argue they wish theirs was a 0.1. I 02:09:07.639 --> 02:09:12.361 really don't know. Um, the CO2, though, that protected our system. 02:09:12.386 --> 02:09:17.034 And by not allowing more two in than we 02:09:17.046 --> 02:09:21.706 already had, we were keeping, minimizing the risk. 02:09:21.731 --> 02:09:23.997 I should say that. You know, the 9 02:09:24.009 --> 02:09:26.287 90 The old standard was pretty tough, but the 02:09:26.299 --> 02:09:28.546 current standards, both of those standards as 02:09:28.558 --> 02:09:30.718 shown there, I mean, they're not that high. 02:09:30.743 --> 02:09:33.047 A lot of people say California, just 02:09:33.059 --> 02:09:35.279 these impossible standards for gas. But we do 02:09:35.291 --> 02:09:37.650 some work out of state to0. We work with private 02:09:37.662 --> 02:09:39.839 pipelines. We work with municipal pipelines. 02:09:39.851 --> 02:09:42.256 It's, if I had a point to an issue, I'm repeating 02:09:42.268 --> 02:09:44.732 myself, it's the speed. The standard is achievable 02:09:44.744 --> 02:09:46.913 by good technology. It's always nice to have 02:09:46.925 --> 02:09:49.105 the standards be a little lower. It's always 02:09:49.117 --> 02:09:51.465 nice to have a little more flexibility, but each 02:09:51.477 --> 02:09:53.837 utility has to work out their own system and how 02:09:53.849 --> 02:09:56.155 they operate it. I'm not an expert on that. The 02:09:56.167 --> 02:09:58.485 standards are not the biggest problem. It would 02:09:58.497 --> 02:10:00.655 be nice if we had a little more headroom. We 02:10:00.667 --> 02:10:03.030 could build these projects a little bit cheaper. 02:10:03.042 --> 02:10:05.254 But what we're really looking for as a system 02:10:05.266 --> 02:10:07.587 is streamlining, at least from our perspectives 02:10:07.612 --> 02:10:13.779 As far as the BTU limit, PG&E really doesn't have one, but we 02:10:13.791 --> 02:10:19.716 back into a number, using calculations from all the other limits. So, 02:10:19.728 --> 02:10:26.071 980. If you were that sort of say, what would be our typical range allowed 02:10:26.083 --> 02:10:31.929 would be 980 to 1080. But that's not a limit we have in our tarrifs. 02:10:31.954 --> 02:10:36.463 Thank you. All right. Any additional questions for Mr Moss? 02:10:41.388 --> 02:10:42.045 Thank you very much. 02:10:42.070 --> 02:10:47.488 Thank you very much. All right. Moving on, 02:10:47.500 --> 02:10:52.471 our next speaker today is Mr Paul Schultz from LADWP. 02:10:57.396 --> 02:11:02.011 Get ready, everybody, this is happening. 02:11:09.736 --> 02:11:12.934 And the slides are gonna happen 02:11:12.946 --> 02:11:15.888 too Here we go. All right. You're not Paul. 02:11:15.917 --> 02:11:20.465 I'm not Paul, but Paul is sitting in the audience here. 02:11:20.477 --> 02:11:24.835 So we're both with the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power 02:11:24.847 --> 02:11:29.334 again. I'm not Paul Schulz, but if this goes really well, you give 02:11:29.346 --> 02:11:33.711 all the credit to Mr Paul Scholes. If it doesn't go well, let me 02:11:33.723 --> 02:11:38.005 introduce myself. My name is Greg Win. I'm with the Los Angeles 02:11:38.017 --> 02:11:42.513 Department of Water and Power. I am part of a team that is working 02:11:42.525 --> 02:11:47.015 on 100% clean energy innovations, as well as part of the team that 02:11:47.027 --> 02:11:51.327 helps run the operations at the Intermountain Power Project. So 02:11:51.339 --> 02:11:55.620 I got this great opportunity to kind of look at two things. The 02:11:55.632 --> 02:12:00.126 100% clean energy innovations, at the same time, having this great 02:12:00.138 --> 02:12:04.559 resource called the Intermountain Power Project that's located in 02:12:04.571 --> 02:12:09.004 the state of Utah. That helps bring energy to California and also 02:12:09.016 --> 02:12:13.367 all the different parts of Utah. So again, lucky to be part of a 02:12:13.379 --> 02:12:17.877 project like this. And I want to just thank everyone for giving me 02:12:17.889 --> 02:12:22.447 this opportunity to highlight what we can do at Intermountain Power 02:12:22.459 --> 02:12:26.694 Project in terms of renewable green hydrogen. And it was great 02:12:26.706 --> 02:12:31.183 to hear the conversations this morning about renewable gas and how 02:12:31.195 --> 02:12:35.416 that includes green hydrogen and how we can inject it into the 02:12:35.428 --> 02:12:39.844 pipelines. And I want to thank the joint committee for putting in 02:12:39.856 --> 02:12:44.418 that effort. So with that, I will just go ahead and get started. So 02:12:44.430 --> 02:12:48.844 what we're here to talk about today is with the passage of Senate 02:12:48.856 --> 02:12:53.147 Bill 100 in California, the state mandated a transition to 100% 02:12:53.159 --> 02:12:57.443 clean energy. So at DWP, we're now faced with this challenge of 02:12:57.455 --> 02:13:01.954 providing this clean, zero carbon, reliable power to our customers 02:13:01.966 --> 02:13:06.377 by 2045. So the Intermountain Power Project, we feel, is going to 02:13:06.389 --> 02:13:10.679 be essential to reaching that goal. And that's what I'm here to 02:13:10.691 --> 02:13:15.176 talk to you about. How is it that this project, which is currently 02:13:15.188 --> 02:13:19.550 a coal project, how is this gonna help get us to that 100% clean 02:13:19.562 --> 02:13:24.178 energy future that we're all envisioning? So before we get into what 02:13:24.190 --> 02:13:28.483 the Intermountain Power Project is, I just wanted to talk about 02:13:28.495 --> 02:13:32.915 the two big initiatives that we're looking at in Los Angeles, one 02:13:32.927 --> 02:13:37.091 of them being the Clean Grid LA Initiative, and then also the 02:13:37.116 --> 02:13:41.689 LA100 study that we are currently involved in to get 02:13:41.701 --> 02:13:46.074 us to what it's gonna look like in 2045 and how we can get to 02:13:46.086 --> 02:13:50.594 that clean energy future. So first thing I wanted to talk about 02:13:50.606 --> 02:13:55.056 is what is the LA100 study? So we were tasked as a department, 02:13:55.068 --> 02:13:59.573 in July 2017, to begin a research partnership with the National 02:13:59.585 --> 02:14:03.891 Renewable Energy Laboratory, NREL, to see what it would take 02:14:03.903 --> 02:14:08.131 for us, as a utility, to get to 100% renewable energy, what 02:14:08.143 --> 02:14:12.454 investments we would have to make what, looking at different 02:14:12.466 --> 02:14:16.688 scenarios, different load profiles to get us to that point. 02:14:16.700 --> 02:14:21.074 And so we're engaged in this study. As it stands today, we're 02:14:21.086 --> 02:14:25.455 working towards getting that study out, and seeing what it is 02:14:25.467 --> 02:14:30.130 actually going to take for us, as a city, as a utility, to get to 02:14:30.142 --> 02:14:34.507 the 100%. So some pretty exciting stuff here and it's, that's 02:14:34.519 --> 02:14:39.179 part of our responsibility now, to get us to that goal. The other 02:14:39.191 --> 02:14:43.634 part of it, which was the Clean Grid L. A. is back in February 02:14:43.646 --> 02:14:47.888 of this year, 2019, our mayor, Eric Garcetti, announced his 02:14:47.900 --> 02:14:52.398 decision to accelerate DWP's transition away from fossil fuels. 02:14:52.410 --> 02:14:56.568 So that meant, so several of our our ocean or once through 02:14:56.580 --> 02:15:00.731 cooling units, which are ocean side units would have to be 02:15:00.743 --> 02:15:05.401 replaced or offset. That generation coming from those units would 02:15:05.413 --> 02:15:09.914 have to be replaced or offset by 2030. And so that accounts for 02:15:09.926 --> 02:15:14.158 approximately 1600 megawatts of natural gas generation that 02:15:14.170 --> 02:15:18.536 we're gonna have to now replace. And so where we now have two 02:15:18.548 --> 02:15:23.138 things that we're looking to do here, we can no longer be on the 02:15:23.150 --> 02:15:27.438 natural gas units that we have along our shores, and we also 02:15:27.450 --> 02:15:31.751 have to figure out the investments without those units there 02:15:31.763 --> 02:15:36.198 and how to get to that clean energy future in 2045. So you see 02:15:36.210 --> 02:15:40.516 in this little visual here. It's the confluence of these two 02:15:40.528 --> 02:15:45.313 initiatives that's gonna take us to our target of 100% clean energy 02:15:45.325 --> 02:15:49.629 by 2045 as well as a carbon-free utility by 2050. So now how 02:15:49.641 --> 02:15:54.221 is it that the Intermountain Power Project, IPP, can help us get 02:15:54.233 --> 02:15:58.471 to that? Before I get into that, lets, what is IPP? So it's 02:15:58.497 --> 02:16:02.965 the Intermountain Power Project. A lot of people like 02:16:02.977 --> 02:16:07.185 to call it the Intermountain Power Plant, but it's actually a 02:16:07.197 --> 02:16:11.806 project consisting of three things. So it's located in central Utah 02:16:11.818 --> 02:16:16.168 in a city called Delta. It's about two hours south of Salt Lake 02:16:16.180 --> 02:16:20.787 City, so it was originally built in and put into operation in 1986. 02:16:20.799 --> 02:16:25.146 It was two coal fire units with the capacity of 1800 megawatts. 02:16:25.158 --> 02:16:29.634 So that's part number one of the InterMountain Power Project. The 02:16:29.646 --> 02:16:33.795 other two parts of the project are its transmission systems. 02:16:33.807 --> 02:16:38.208 We have two transmission systems that are connected to the power 02:16:38.220 --> 02:16:42.565 plant, the STS, which is the Southern Transmission System, that 02:16:42.577 --> 02:16:47.189 brings power into Southern California through an HVDC, high voltage 02:16:47.201 --> 02:16:51.348 direct current system, capacity of 2400 megawatts, from Utah 02:16:51.360 --> 02:16:55.492 into Southern California. And then there's also the Northern 02:16:55.504 --> 02:17:00.192 Transmission system, which is the NTS, that wheels power from Nevada 02:17:00.204 --> 02:17:04.615 to Utah, and vice versa. Currently we're interconnected with 370 02:17:04.627 --> 02:17:09.049 megawatts of wind generation. So there is some renewables that's 02:17:09.061 --> 02:17:13.389 coming down from that area, as it stands today, coming down the 02:17:13.401 --> 02:17:17.742 STS. The project itself is not just LADWP. It's also made up of 02:17:17.754 --> 02:17:22.292 different participants in both Utah and Southern California. 35 in 02:17:22.304 --> 02:17:26.854 total. Six of those participants are from Southern California, and 02:17:26.866 --> 02:17:30.994 today the plan is, in 2025, these coal units are going to be 02:17:31.006 --> 02:17:35.756 dedommissioned replaced with a natural gas system that we're planning 02:17:35.768 --> 02:17:40.241 to put in at the same time in 2025. So going into what it's going 02:17:40.253 --> 02:17:44.535 to look like, it's called, we call it the IPP renewed, Renewal 02:17:44.547 --> 02:17:49.012 Project. That project is going to be 840 megawatts of natural gas 02:17:49.024 --> 02:17:53.230 combined cycle generation. Was originally 1200. We decided to 02:17:53.242 --> 02:17:57.510 pull it back because for various reasons, we decided to reduce 02:17:57.522 --> 02:18:01.802 to 840. We have an estimated capacity factor of 68% that we're 02:18:01.814 --> 02:18:06.282 shooting for. Construction is supposed to start in January 1st of 02:18:06.294 --> 02:18:10.707 next year, with the completion, commercial operation in July 1st 02:18:10.719 --> 02:18:14.922 of 2025. In addition to replacing the natural, the coal units 02:18:14.934 --> 02:18:19.421 with the natural gas combined cycle generator, we're also looking 02:18:19.446 --> 02:18:23.952 at replacing part of the Southern Transmission System, 02:18:23.964 --> 02:18:28.213 which is the 2400 megawatt high voltage direct current system, 02:18:28.225 --> 02:18:32.805 and replacing the converter stations on either side. And so we have 02:18:32.817 --> 02:18:37.139 completion. We're looking at April 1, 2026. So with the upgrade 02:18:37.151 --> 02:18:41.660 of the gas plant, we also have to do some upgrades on the two ends 02:18:41.672 --> 02:18:45.991 of the transmission system to ensure reliable operation of that 02:18:46.003 --> 02:18:50.384 plant. We decided to put this this project in place for a couple 02:18:50.396 --> 02:18:54.856 of reasons. We know that we have to get to this 100% goal, but we 02:18:54.868 --> 02:18:59.443 also understand that there's reliability. That's part of our duties 02:18:59.455 --> 02:19:03.638 as a utility. So reliability, having dispatched energy coming 02:19:03.650 --> 02:19:08.164 from this and from that generator, less reliance on the issues, on 02:19:08.176 --> 02:19:12.499 some of the facilities that we have, are having issues with, in 02:19:12.511 --> 02:19:17.022 Southern California, namely Alisso Canyon. And you know that first 02:19:17.034 --> 02:19:21.558 point here, it's, we're gonna need it, and I'll show you why we're 02:19:21.570 --> 02:19:26.019 gonna need this plant to help us get to that 100% renewable goal. 02:19:26.031 --> 02:19:30.357 So at Intermountain Power. we have a lot of different resources 02:19:30.369 --> 02:19:34.738 that are going to help us unlock this potential that we have for 02:19:34.750 --> 02:19:39.332 green hydrogen. So I've named them really quickly here. We're going 02:19:39.344 --> 02:19:43.920 to need renewables, of course. But that's the only way you're gonna 02:19:43.932 --> 02:19:48.183 be able to generate this green hydrogen. We need transmission. 02:19:48.195 --> 02:19:52.566 We need a way to push that energy. We have that. Land and water. 02:19:52.578 --> 02:19:56.691 We need land to build these facilities for electrolysis, for 02:19:56.703 --> 02:20:01.013 storage, and the water associated with the electrolysis. And we 02:20:01.025 --> 02:20:05.616 also have something that's very unique, which is our salt dome. The 02:20:05.628 --> 02:20:10.200 Intermountain Power Project, the piece of land that we sit on, sits 02:20:10.212 --> 02:20:14.526 on top of this unique geologic feature of a salt cavern. We can 02:20:14.538 --> 02:20:18.779 utilize that salt cavern for storage of green hydrogen. And of 02:20:18.791 --> 02:20:23.111 course, we have our people there. We have a very talented, very 02:20:23.123 --> 02:20:27.293 technically sound group of people that run that plant. And it 02:20:27.305 --> 02:20:31.756 would be great if we could utilize that expertise because they've 02:20:31.768 --> 02:20:36.282 been running the plant for so long and been doing such a great job 02:20:36.294 --> 02:20:40.617 doing it. So as I go into this a little more into detail. Where 02:20:40.641 --> 02:20:45.011 IIPP sits currently is this confluence of renewable 02:20:45.023 --> 02:20:49.474 energies. We have solar in the area. We have geothermal, we have 02:20:49.486 --> 02:20:53.931 wind resources. And so we all have all these renewables now that 02:20:53.943 --> 02:20:58.126 we can utilize to help with the production of hydrogen. As I 02:20:58.138 --> 02:21:02.168 mentioned earlier, we're currently interconnected with 370 02:21:02.180 --> 02:21:06.634 megawatts of wind generation. We also have a path for geothermal 02:21:06.646 --> 02:21:11.162 projects. Currently, in our own interconnection requests, we have 02:21:11.174 --> 02:21:15.634 2300 megawatts worth of solar interconnection requests. And then 02:21:15.646 --> 02:21:20.086 also, there is some talk of going into a project, a wind project 02:21:20.098 --> 02:21:24.414 in Wyoming, for 1500 megawatts. That's currently on the books. 02:21:24.426 --> 02:21:28.666 So with that renewable energy and with the potential of green 02:21:28.678 --> 02:21:33.274 hydrogen and generation from that green hydrogen as a fuel source, 02:21:33.286 --> 02:21:37.592 we have to have a way of transmitting that energy. Luckily, we 02:21:37.604 --> 02:21:41.785 do. We have the Southern Transmission System, as I mentioned 02:21:41.797 --> 02:21:46.246 earlier, and the Northern Transmission System. So we can utilize 02:21:46.258 --> 02:21:50.582 these two systems to move that energy into Southern California 02:21:50.594 --> 02:21:54.961 and different parts of Nevada and Utah. One of the key features 02:21:54.973 --> 02:21:59.146 of these transmission systems is that they're bidirectional, 02:21:59.158 --> 02:22:03.257 meaning we can move it from Utah to Southern California and 02:22:03.269 --> 02:22:07.928 Southern California to Utah, meaning if there is over generation of 02:22:07.940 --> 02:22:12.446 renewables in Southern California, we can bring that back up into 02:22:12.458 --> 02:22:16.634 Utah to help with the generation of renewable hydrogen. As I 02:22:16.646 --> 02:22:20.953 mentioned again, earlier, land and water. We have an abundance 02:22:20.965 --> 02:22:25.285 of land on our property, with the about 4000 acres of land, we 02:22:25.297 --> 02:22:29.733 currently have a coal plant that's sitting there that's gonna be 02:22:29.745 --> 02:22:33.988 replaced by a gas plant, which takes significantly less land. 02:22:34.000 --> 02:22:38.306 So we'll even have even more for additional projects like this 02:22:38.318 --> 02:22:42.704 green hydrogen project. The site is fed by Utah's Severe River, 02:22:42.716 --> 02:22:47.156 and so originally when this, when the coal plant was planned, it 02:22:47.168 --> 02:22:51.483 was planned for four units, and it's right now, currently, two 02:22:51.495 --> 02:22:55.941 units, but when the water rights were secured, we secured enough 02:22:55.953 --> 02:23:00.205 for four units. So there's there's abundance of water that we 02:23:00.230 --> 02:23:04.830 can use in the production of Green Hydrogen. So we have 02:23:04.842 --> 02:23:09.115 that as well. And then we also have this one of a kind feature 02:23:09.127 --> 02:23:13.598 that we sit on top of, which is the salt domes that we can use to 02:23:13.610 --> 02:23:17.889 store hydrogen. It's been shown to be an ideal medium to store 02:23:17.901 --> 02:23:22.369 hydrogen. It's something that's been shown in the Gulf Coast, the 02:23:22.381 --> 02:23:26.521 Gulf of Mexico, and so we're lucky enough to have one in the 02:23:26.533 --> 02:23:30.871 Western United States so we can utilize storage on site instead 02:23:30.883 --> 02:23:35.096 of having to deal with the issues of transportation. And then 02:23:35.108 --> 02:23:39.371 again, as I mentioned, we have our Intermountain Power Service 02:23:39.383 --> 02:23:43.725 Corporation, which is a group of people, engineers, operations, 02:23:43.737 --> 02:23:48.073 maintenance and technical staff that have been running the coal 02:23:48.085 --> 02:23:52.638 plant for 30 years, have the experience, not only in coal but have 02:23:52.650 --> 02:23:57.051 been, have enough of skill sets and technical ability to help us 02:23:57.063 --> 02:24:01.340 push forward into the gas plant and hopefully into a renewable 02:24:01.352 --> 02:24:05.964 future on that site. So currently we have over 350 employees there. 02:24:05.976 --> 02:24:10.191 They helped put IPP as one of the best run coal plants in the 02:24:10.203 --> 02:24:14.528 country. And we expect that doesn't, that's not going to change 02:24:14.540 --> 02:24:18.945 when we change to a gas plant or something else on that site. So 02:24:18.957 --> 02:24:23.289 to summarize some of the things that, you know, in terms of our 02:24:23.301 --> 02:24:27.712 resources at IPP. How it is that we can get to that green energy 02:24:27.724 --> 02:24:32.120 future. I've just listed here what are the challenges with green 02:24:32.132 --> 02:24:36.472 hydrogen? It's the availability of renewables. The transmission 02:24:36.484 --> 02:24:40.751 resources. Transmission, as you all know, is very difficult to 02:24:40.763 --> 02:24:45.177 build anywhere. And speaking about California, it's really gonna 02:24:45.189 --> 02:24:49.448 be difficult to build more transmission here. Luckily, we have 02:24:49.460 --> 02:24:54.002 that. Land water needs, storage and transportation, and the threat 02:24:54.014 --> 02:24:58.076 of these emerging technologies, and how they're changing so 02:24:58.088 --> 02:25:02.500 quickly. Solutions to all five of these we have at IPP. We have, 02:25:02.512 --> 02:25:06.910 we're centrally located in what we call the renewable hub on the 02:25:06.922 --> 02:25:11.604 western, the Western energy grid. We have the two large transmission 02:25:11.616 --> 02:25:15.544 systems. We have abundance of land and water. We have the 02:25:15.556 --> 02:25:19.836 underground salt caverns for storage. So to alleviate the need 02:25:19.860 --> 02:25:24.408 for transportation. And of course, we have our great 02:25:24.420 --> 02:25:28.840 people at Intermountain Power Service Corporation. So in terms 02:25:28.852 --> 02:25:33.266 of what we can do at IPP. We have a great opportunity here and 02:25:33.278 --> 02:25:37.704 something that we would like to capitalize as a utility to get 02:25:37.716 --> 02:25:42.408 us to that green energy future. Some of the projects that I wanted 02:25:42.420 --> 02:25:46.843 to highlight that we're currently looking at at IPP to utilize 02:25:46.855 --> 02:25:51.131 those resources, we have a couple that I wanted to highlight 02:25:51.143 --> 02:25:55.642 today out that I think are gonna be be essential for us. Number 02:25:55.654 --> 02:25:59.923 one. We have something called Compressed Air Energy Storage. 02:25:59.935 --> 02:26:04.357 So this is basically, we're taking the renewables, of the over 02:26:04.369 --> 02:26:09.206 generation of renewables, taking that and storing that as compressed 02:26:09.218 --> 02:26:13.575 air within our, within the salt cavern, and then running them 02:26:13.587 --> 02:26:18.210 through on an expander on a generator to create energy using that 02:26:18.222 --> 02:26:22.576 compressed air. Currently, the technology is natural gas, but 02:26:22.588 --> 02:26:27.007 there is a vision for this project to go to 100% hydrogen. And 02:26:27.019 --> 02:26:31.379 so this is one of the projects that we're looking at, a pilot 02:26:31.391 --> 02:26:35.799 project that we have, that we're currently looking at, for 160 02:26:35.811 --> 02:26:40.232 megawatts of compressed air energy storage. The one that we're 02:26:40.244 --> 02:26:44.729 also very excited about is this hydrogen fire generation. So if 02:26:44.741 --> 02:26:49.378 we if we can produce hydrogen on site, what can we do? We can run 02:26:49.390 --> 02:26:53.872 it through those new combined cycle units that we're looking to 02:26:53.884 --> 02:26:58.308 put in place in 2025. And so we're looking towards the future, 02:26:58.320 --> 02:27:02.597 and day one of commercial operation, we will be able to burn 02:27:02.609 --> 02:27:07.109 hydrogen through those generators, a blend of that with natural 02:27:07.121 --> 02:27:11.601 gas based on the responses to our request for proposal from our 02:27:11.613 --> 02:27:16.106 manufacturers. So something that we're also, we're very excited 02:27:16.118 --> 02:27:20.463 about. So going that, going into that a little bit more, when 02:27:20.475 --> 02:27:24.974 we had originally come up with this project, we weren't looking 02:27:24.986 --> 02:27:29.329 into hydrogen. It was something we were going through what we 02:27:29.341 --> 02:27:33.766 would call, at that time back in the early part of the decade, 02:27:33.778 --> 02:27:38.337 was a conventional REpower. We're gonna take down the coal unit. 02:27:38.349 --> 02:27:42.570 We were gonna replace it with a combined cycle unit. As the 02:27:42.595 --> 02:27:47.024 project progressed and as we saw more and more, 02:27:47.036 --> 02:27:51.551 this push towards getting to the renewable future, we saw an 02:27:51.563 --> 02:27:56.295 opportunity to take what we were doing at IPP and change course 02:27:56.307 --> 02:28:00.828 a little bit, so that we could add the capability of burning 02:28:00.840 --> 02:28:05.420 hydrogen in these advanced class combined cycle units. So the 02:28:05.432 --> 02:28:10.025 three manufacturers that we do have now, that we're currently 02:28:10.037 --> 02:28:14.475 in negotiations with, and have responded to our RFP are GE, 02:28:14.487 --> 02:28:18.566 Mitsubishi and Siemens, and so we've listed the models 02:28:18.578 --> 02:28:23.305 of their advanced class combined cycle technology. All of these 02:28:23.317 --> 02:28:27.685 units will be compliant with SP1368 in terms of emissions. 02:28:27.697 --> 02:28:32.356 We actually got approval from the California Energy Commission 02:28:32.368 --> 02:28:36.594 in November of 2018 to proceed with this project. So all 02:28:36.606 --> 02:28:41.040 three of these manufacturers have the capability of burning 02:28:41.052 --> 02:28:45.646 hydrogen through their units. So we saw an opportunity to ask 02:28:45.658 --> 02:28:50.023 them to provide information when they responded to our RFP 02:28:50.035 --> 02:28:54.338 so that they could showcase to us what their capabilities 02:28:54.350 --> 02:28:58.923 would be in terms of burning hydrogen through their machines. 02:28:58.935 --> 02:29:03.298 So in our RFP, we outlined a lot of requirements for them. 02:29:03.310 --> 02:29:07.963 How would they help us get to that renewable future. How would 02:29:07.975 --> 02:29:12.122 we, how would they help us get to burning 100% hydrogen 02:29:12.134 --> 02:29:16.636 in those machines? So we wanted to start. We wanted to start 02:29:16.648 --> 02:29:21.311 first, what do you have now? What's your capability of burning 02:29:21.323 --> 02:29:25.608 hydrogen in your machines today? And we gave them a blend 02:29:25.620 --> 02:29:29.844 of 20%. We didn't want to go too far beyond that because 02:29:29.856 --> 02:29:34.357 it might be too difficult. We thought 20% was reasonable. So 02:29:34.369 --> 02:29:38.956 tell us, GE, Mitsubishi, Siemens, what can you do to operate? 02:29:38.968 --> 02:29:43.252 Describe to us the capability of your equipment to burn a 02:29:43.264 --> 02:29:47.486 blend of hydrogen through your system. Secondly, develop 02:29:47.498 --> 02:29:51.928 a plan for us to show us how to get to 100% renewable, 100% 02:29:51.940 --> 02:29:56.233 hydrogen by 2040. And not only how do you get there? What 02:29:56.245 --> 02:30:00.606 modifications are needed to get us all the way through the 02:30:00.618 --> 02:30:05.066 balance of plant and provide us with some value engineering 02:30:05.090 --> 02:30:08.291 so that we can avoid any major 02:30:08.303 --> 02:30:11.591 modifications in the future. What can we do 02:30:11.603 --> 02:30:14.960 today to avoid cost later knowing that we're 02:30:14.972 --> 02:30:17.967 trying to get to that burn of 100%. And 02:30:17.979 --> 02:30:21.108 then, you know, being that this is new to 02:30:21.120 --> 02:30:24.336 everybody, what are the tests that we need 02:30:24.348 --> 02:30:27.558 to demonstrate that we can get to that 20% 02:30:27.570 --> 02:30:30.642 at least when we install these machines? 02:30:30.654 --> 02:30:33.857 The project now, well, the renewal project 02:30:33.869 --> 02:30:37.233 that we have for the gas, for the gas plants 02:30:37.245 --> 02:30:40.304 is going to require fuel transportation. 02:30:40.316 --> 02:30:43.537 So I know it's a little hard to see on the 02:30:43.549 --> 02:30:46.829 screen here, but, does this have a pointer? 02:30:46.841 --> 02:30:50.134 So Intermountain Power sits right here. And 02:30:50.146 --> 02:30:53.433 so this red is is an existing gas pipeline, 02:30:53.445 --> 02:30:56.368 so we would need a lateral off of this 02:30:56.380 --> 02:30:59.428 system to get into into our plant. So as 02:30:59.440 --> 02:31:02.724 part of the project, fuel transportation is 02:31:02.736 --> 02:31:05.640 something that we're looking at as part 02:31:05.652 --> 02:31:08.867 of the project. And so right now we're in 02:31:08.879 --> 02:31:12.453 negotiations with a fuel transporter, and we're 02:31:12.465 --> 02:31:15.603 hoping to get that approval by the end of 02:31:15.615 --> 02:31:18.821 this month. So part of that transportation 02:31:18.833 --> 02:31:22.201 agreement is to provide a minimum of 140,000 02:31:22.213 --> 02:31:25.561 deca therms per day until 2045. And so this, 02:31:25.573 --> 02:31:28.709 for us, is a minimum that we have to take 02:31:28.721 --> 02:31:31.552 knowing that in the future we're still 02:31:31.564 --> 02:31:35.005 trying to get to hydrogen and blend hydrogen 02:31:35.017 --> 02:31:38.592 on site. This is something that we're committed 02:31:38.604 --> 02:31:41.519 to, both on the minimum transportation 02:31:41.531 --> 02:31:44.664 side and on the hydrogen side. So this is 02:31:44.676 --> 02:31:47.596 going to be part of a challenge for us 02:31:47.621 --> 02:31:51.085 because, you know, as we blend hydrogen, 02:31:51.097 --> 02:31:53.983 we still have to take this 140 decathemrs a 02:31:53.995 --> 02:31:57.136 day, as part of our agreement. And so as we get 02:31:57.148 --> 02:32:00.171 into, as we get into the plant where this is, 02:32:00.183 --> 02:32:03.256 this is where we're planning on connecting to, 02:32:03.268 --> 02:32:06.485 I'll point this one on this too, for you on this 02:32:06.497 --> 02:32:09.773 side, that's our interconnection points. And, you 02:32:09.785 --> 02:32:12.876 know, this is the current plant, as it's as it 02:32:12.888 --> 02:32:16.092 stands today, the generating units are here, and 02:32:16.104 --> 02:32:19.319 then the additional infrastructure with the coal 02:32:19.331 --> 02:32:22.474 plant is here. So, as you can see, much of this 02:32:22.486 --> 02:32:25.773 is not going to be needed anymore. In the future, 02:32:25.785 --> 02:32:28.926 our footprint is gonna be much smaller. So does 02:32:28.938 --> 02:32:32.353 again provide opportunity for new projects on site. 02:32:32.365 --> 02:32:35.380 So part of the reason why we're here today is 02:32:35.392 --> 02:32:38.551 we wanted to talk about, you know, if renewable 02:32:38.563 --> 02:32:41.761 hydrogen is being expanded through external fuel 02:32:41.773 --> 02:32:45.049 supplies, this will be a significant impact on us 02:32:45.061 --> 02:32:48.397 as an end user because it's going to affect how we 02:32:48.409 --> 02:32:51.625 run our generators. And it's going to affect how 02:32:51.637 --> 02:32:55.035 we, how much we can blend of our own hydrogen, what 02:32:55.047 --> 02:32:58.261 affects those might have on, on our performance, 02:32:58.273 --> 02:33:01.480 on operations, and even on the warranties on the 02:33:01.492 --> 02:33:04.449 machine. So I wanted to run through a little 02:33:04.461 --> 02:33:07.464 bit of, and this is, I'm sorry. This is a bit 02:33:07.476 --> 02:33:10.556 hard to see because of the gray, but this is a 02:33:10.568 --> 02:33:13.708 normal flow of gas flow. If you were looking at 02:33:13.720 --> 02:33:16.938 100% natural gas through our system. So you have 02:33:16.950 --> 02:33:20.022 natural, this is, this is what I'll say is our 02:33:20.034 --> 02:33:23.445 meter. This is IPP. And this is on the left side is 02:33:23.457 --> 02:33:26.798 the supply side. So once it gets through our meter 02:33:26.810 --> 02:33:29.965 and once it gets to us, we have to go through a 02:33:29.990 --> 02:33:33.269 fuel fuel gas treatment, which is to 02:33:33.281 --> 02:33:36.505 get the gas at the right quality. So we can burn 02:33:36.517 --> 02:33:39.736 it through machines. This year I know is, again, 02:33:39.748 --> 02:33:42.715 sorry that this is a little hard to see, but 02:33:42.727 --> 02:33:45.943 this is basically the turbine. So you would take 02:33:45.955 --> 02:33:49.248 the gas, go through fuel treatment, and then burn 02:33:49.260 --> 02:33:52.350 it. Simple stuff. But when you add hydrogen to 02:33:52.362 --> 02:33:55.530 the mix, it's not as simple as just blending it 02:33:55.542 --> 02:33:59.020 and then pushing it through, pushing it through into 02:33:59.032 --> 02:34:02.258 the turbines. It takes a bit more infrastructure 02:34:02.270 --> 02:34:05.292 that we have to put in to be able to do that. 02:34:05.304 --> 02:34:08.207 And so again, this is if the supply is 100% 02:34:08.219 --> 02:34:11.172 natural gas, we would bring our own blend of 02:34:11.184 --> 02:34:14.677 hydrogen, whatever percentage that is by volume into 02:34:14.689 --> 02:34:17.715 the mix. Going from here in the mixer, having 02:34:17.727 --> 02:34:20.896 it sit in the gas holder, and then here the gas 02:34:20.908 --> 02:34:24.516 chromatography. This is basically a piece of equipment 02:34:24.528 --> 02:34:27.425 that will tell us what that mix actually is 02:34:27.437 --> 02:34:30.788 to verify that we do have a mix that's safe. We're 02:34:30.800 --> 02:34:33.966 going 20%. This will help verify that we are at 02:34:33.978 --> 02:34:37.524 20%. Same thing, going through a gas field treatment, 02:34:37.536 --> 02:34:40.633 field gas treatment, and then here the calorie 02:34:40.645 --> 02:34:43.603 meter to verify the heat content of our fuel 02:34:43.615 --> 02:34:46.850 before it goes into the generator. So it's a bit 02:34:46.862 --> 02:34:50.143 more involved in just adding hydrogen to the mix. 02:34:50.155 --> 02:34:53.316 So there is some extra work that we have to do, 02:34:53.328 --> 02:34:56.351 which is again, what we had asked for when we 02:34:56.363 --> 02:34:59.596 talked to the manufacturers. The tricky part now 02:34:59.608 --> 02:35:02.958 comes in when you have to, when you have a natural 02:35:02.970 --> 02:35:06.200 gas blend with hydrogen coming from the external 02:35:06.212 --> 02:35:09.304 source. So if we're talking about what we were 02:35:09.316 --> 02:35:12.552 talking about earlier, if there was a gas blend, 02:35:12.577 --> 02:35:16.021 what it's gonna take and how, What? 02:35:16.033 --> 02:35:19.136 How do we verify that, you know, what we're 02:35:19.148 --> 02:35:22.457 getting is going to be adequate for us to burn 02:35:22.469 --> 02:35:25.578 through? If it's outside of the ranges, the 02:35:25.590 --> 02:35:28.613 operational ranges. You know, that's gonna 02:35:28.625 --> 02:35:31.801 have, again, some significant impacts on our 02:35:31.813 --> 02:35:35.125 burn. So one of the things that we do ask from 02:35:35.137 --> 02:35:38.320 the CPUC is to really start, we want to just 02:35:38.332 --> 02:35:41.565 have the idea brought up today that it has to 02:35:41.577 --> 02:35:44.611 be verified what we're putting through the 02:35:44.623 --> 02:35:47.933 system and, because it's going to have a major 02:35:47.945 --> 02:35:50.985 effect on the end user. So, you know, I'll 02:35:50.997 --> 02:35:54.375 just kind of quickly go through this, you know, 02:35:54.387 --> 02:35:57.636 we have storage. Storage is one of the unique 02:35:57.648 --> 02:36:00.678 features that we have at IPP. Not only can 02:36:00.690 --> 02:36:03.804 we burn renewable hydrogen, but we can also 02:36:03.816 --> 02:36:07.044 do something we're calling seasonal shifting. 02:36:07.056 --> 02:36:10.085 Now we have energy storage that we can, we 02:36:10.097 --> 02:36:13.190 take the renewables, we store it within the 02:36:13.202 --> 02:36:16.448 caverns, and we can have it there, for a burn 02:36:16.460 --> 02:36:20.044 later and we can shift that energy that we curtail 02:36:20.056 --> 02:36:23.088 one day and use it through burning through 02:36:23.100 --> 02:36:26.267 the generators further down the road. So, in 02:36:26.279 --> 02:36:29.387 terms of the scale of what we could do with 02:36:29.399 --> 02:36:32.700 hydrogen, you know, hydrogen has a much larger 02:36:32.712 --> 02:36:35.671 energy storage potential then, let's say, 02:36:35.683 --> 02:36:38.566 batteries and compressed air. So this is 02:36:38.578 --> 02:36:41.897 something that we think is unique and and very 02:36:41.909 --> 02:36:45.212 exciting for us in terms of storage. You know, 02:36:45.224 --> 02:36:48.540 if we have a four million barrel cavern, which 02:36:48.552 --> 02:36:51.791 is a typical size. That's the size of, that's 02:36:51.803 --> 02:36:54.771 equivalent to 200,000 hydrogen buses, one 02:36:54.771 --> 02:37:00.315 million fuel cell cars and 14,000 truck trailers for delivery. So 02:37:00.327 --> 02:37:05.812 because we don't have to deliver, we don't have to move the hydrogen. That's 02:37:05.824 --> 02:37:11.160 a big plus for us. You know, this is really just to highlight the scale of 02:37:11.172 --> 02:37:16.592 the storage, you know, if we're looking at the combined cycle at a capacity 02:37:16.604 --> 02:37:22.079 factor of 50%, it gives us about 10 days of storage that we can burn through 02:37:22.091 --> 02:37:27.223 the system. So it gives us 10 days of hydrogen that we can use if we're 02:37:27.235 --> 02:37:32.360 talking about 100%. So to give you a scale, that's 84 times the storage 02:37:32.372 --> 02:37:37.794 capacity of a 1200 megawatt hour battery system. So some pretty big, pretty 02:37:37.806 --> 02:37:43.343 big stuff there. You know, this is just a quick example. You know, if we were 02:37:43.355 --> 02:37:48.547 gonna burn 30% hydrogen through the generators how much renewable energy 02:37:48.559 --> 02:37:53.959 we would need. So this is just some numbers that I just wanted to throw out 02:37:53.971 --> 02:37:59.312 there. But bottom line, we need about 538 megawatts of renewable energy at 02:37:59.324 --> 02:38:04.721 the capacity factor of 32% to get us to that 30% by volume Natural gas fuel 02:38:04.733 --> 02:38:10.213 mix. This here just really talking about what, one of the resources required 02:38:10.225 --> 02:38:15.771 something. According to that example, before, if you have, you need 27 acres, 02:38:15.783 --> 02:38:20.842 which is really not much for us. In terms of land, the amount of water 02:38:20.867 --> 02:38:23.718 required again, we have plenty 02:38:23.730 --> 02:38:26.327 of water to do it. So that's not gonna 02:38:26.339 --> 02:38:31.677 be an issue. You know, the example that I gave was 30%. This is you know, as we 02:38:31.689 --> 02:38:34.277 get 200% it's gonna be, as a technology 02:38:34.289 --> 02:38:37.155 progresses, we'll have a better idea what 02:38:37.167 --> 02:38:39.694 that's gonna take, but again, that was 02:38:39.706 --> 02:38:42.645 just a quick example of what it would take 02:38:42.657 --> 02:38:45.110 for something as small as 30% for our 02:38:45.122 --> 02:38:47.987 system. This here is just a timeline that 02:38:47.999 --> 02:38:50.858 we're looking at 2045 is the big date that 02:38:50.870 --> 02:38:53.540 we're looking for. So, you know, that's 02:38:53.552 --> 02:38:58.754 that's really what we're shooting for. There's a couple more details in here. 02:38:58.766 --> 02:39:01.561 2025 is when we shut down the coal plant, 02:39:01.573 --> 02:39:04.113 we bring natural gas on online. Here, 02:39:04.125 --> 02:39:09.512 we're talking about emissions. You know, this is the red of the coal. As we move 02:39:09.524 --> 02:39:14.788 forward, we're gonna see this sharp drop in 2025. Because, of course, the cold 02:39:14.800 --> 02:39:17.584 comes off line then we enter into natural 02:39:17.596 --> 02:39:20.193 gas, which is this blue line, and then 02:39:20.205 --> 02:39:25.609 natural gas combined with hydrogen. This is what we're projecting is, of course, 02:39:25.621 --> 02:39:28.403 gonna be less. So you know, as we explore 02:39:28.415 --> 02:39:31.010 the different opportunities with green 02:39:31.022 --> 02:39:33.878 hydrogen and the other technologies around 02:39:33.890 --> 02:39:36.490 it, again, Intermountain Power Project 02:39:36.502 --> 02:39:39.288 becomes an essential piece of the overall 02:39:39.300 --> 02:39:41.697 future. And so again, excited to be 02:39:41.709 --> 02:39:44.301 showcasing the capabilities at IPP And, 02:39:44.313 --> 02:39:47.183 at this point, I will take any questions. 02:39:47.208 --> 02:39:51.429 Thanks, Greg. All right, Who's got 02:39:51.441 --> 02:39:55.258 questions about IPP? Don't all speak at once. 02:39:55.270 --> 02:39:58.915 Come on, guys. This is the coolest hydrogen 02:39:58.927 --> 02:40:03.083 storage project ever. This is actually happening. 02:40:03.108 --> 02:40:08.644 Hi. My name is Sandy Goldberg. I'm an advisor for 02:40:08.656 --> 02:40:14.530 Commissioner Rechtschaffen. My question's not about hydrogen, though. I 02:40:14.542 --> 02:40:20.002 might have missed this part. Aside from hydrogen, does the project 02:40:20.014 --> 02:40:25.976 include compressed air storage? If you just tell us a little about that. 02:40:26.001 --> 02:40:29.493 Sure. So there there was an RFP 02:40:29.505 --> 02:40:33.009 that was put out from, through the Southern 02:40:33.021 --> 02:40:36.519 California Power Purchase Authority, SCAPA, 02:40:36.531 --> 02:40:39.882 to solicit proposals for a compressed air 02:40:39.894 --> 02:40:43.369 energy system. So, that is the process that 02:40:43.381 --> 02:40:46.789 we're going through in terms of, so let me 02:40:46.801 --> 02:40:50.202 understand your question. You want to know 02:40:50.214 --> 02:40:53.787 more about what air compressor energy is or? 02:40:53.811 --> 02:40:55.211 (inaudible from audience) 02:40:56.781 --> 02:41:02.672 It's closed now, and so we're still in 02:41:02.684 --> 02:41:09.976 negotiations with the selected bidder. And so that is ongoing. 02:41:10.001 --> 02:41:16.426 (inaudible question from audience) 02:41:18.746 --> 02:41:24.410 So the two pieces are not related, so IPP is its own project. 02:41:24.422 --> 02:41:29.644 The compressed air energy system is through a separate, it's through 02:41:29.656 --> 02:41:34.872 a separate power purchase agreement with the different participants, 02:41:34.884 --> 02:41:40.111 so LA, right now, is one of them, so they're not really related. And 02:41:40.123 --> 02:41:45.317 it's, so, they're, it's just a highlight that there's an opportunity 02:41:45.329 --> 02:41:50.686 to use the resources that we have on site for different projects, like 02:41:50.698 --> 02:41:55.898 compressed air energy storage, like hydrogen storage. So that's what 02:41:55.910 --> 02:42:01.046 we're really looking at. They're not really related. In that sense. 02:42:01.071 --> 02:42:03.977 Is this a quick question Tom? 02:42:04.002 --> 02:42:08.246 Tom Henz, Seal Team bio-gas. A couple of questions. 02:42:08.258 --> 02:42:12.380 The hydrogen is clearly produced through hydrolysis, correct? 02:42:12.405 --> 02:42:13.865 Electrolysis, 02:42:13.890 --> 02:42:16.105 Electrolys. My apologies. Uh, is 02:42:16.117 --> 02:42:18.245 that gonna be considered a renewable fuel? 02:42:18.270 --> 02:42:21.973 Yes, because it's coming from a renewable 02:42:21.985 --> 02:42:25.769 source. The electrolysis will be powered by renewables 02:42:25.794 --> 02:42:26.382 All from solar? 02:42:26.407 --> 02:42:28.000 from solar, from wind. 02:42:28.000 --> 02:42:32.104 Solar and wind? And what is the pressure 02:42:32.116 --> 02:42:35.610 that it will be delivered through the system? 02:42:35.610 --> 02:42:40.807 I think I have it on one of these slides here. I think. Or maybe 02:42:40.819 --> 02:42:45.757 I don't have it. But I mean, typical cabin pressure is about 3000 p. S. I 02:42:45.782 --> 02:42:48.343 Okay. So, through the natural gas grid, 02:42:48.355 --> 02:42:50.632 if you deliver it, what will be delivered at? 02:42:50.657 --> 02:42:53.595 if it came through the natural gas system? 02:42:53.620 --> 02:42:54.495 Right. 02:42:54.520 --> 02:42:55.746 that I don't have the answer to that. 02:42:55.758 --> 02:42:57.120 Unfortunately, I don't know what that would look like. 02:42:57.120 --> 02:43:02.453 my question is that would hydrogen long run be able to be shipped 02:43:02.465 --> 02:43:07.398 or transported and be used in the natural gas grid system in the future? 02:43:07.423 --> 02:43:10.896 I hope so. But, I mean, that's, we're the 02:43:10.908 --> 02:43:14.265 end user, so, I mean, it's, if it gets put into the 02:43:14.277 --> 02:43:17.756 natural gas system, I mean, that's, hopefully, it can 02:43:17.768 --> 02:43:21.130 be. I mean, that's something that we would welcome. 02:43:21.130 --> 02:43:22.753 Okay. Thank you. 02:43:22.778 --> 02:43:28.976 All right. Thank you very much, Greg. I appreciate 02:43:28.988 --> 02:43:35.198 your time. Okay. Next. Heidi? Will you please come up? Also, these 02:43:35.210 --> 02:43:41.090 are very fascinating presentations, but as always, your time to 02:43:41.102 --> 02:43:47.271 speak is less than we want, so let's keep it consolidated, please. 02:43:47.296 --> 02:43:50.124 Good afternoon, everyone. All 02:43:50.136 --> 02:43:53.305 right. Oh, thank you, somebody said Good after, 02:43:53.317 --> 02:43:56.349 thank you. I know, it's hopefully, we'll take 02:43:56.361 --> 02:43:59.140 a little turn and talk a little bit about 02:43:59.152 --> 02:44:02.313 carbon dioxide, which is related to the methane 02:44:02.325 --> 02:44:04.968 in our context, in this context. So I'm 02:44:04.980 --> 02:44:07.949 Heidi Lim. I'm the chief of staff at a start 02:44:07.961 --> 02:44:10.809 up in Berkeley called Opus 12, and we have 02:44:10.821 --> 02:44:13.716 developed a technology that recycles carbon 02:44:13.728 --> 02:44:16.370 dioxide into, basically, petro-chemical 02:44:16.382 --> 02:44:19.614 building blocks like methane and others as well. 02:44:19.626 --> 02:44:22.406 And we do that by taking basically carbon 02:44:22.418 --> 02:44:25.514 dioxide and water into our unit and then using 02:44:25.526 --> 02:44:28.171 renewable electricity to split up those 02:44:28.183 --> 02:44:31.153 molecules and rearrange them in the presence 02:44:31.165 --> 02:44:34.015 of a metal catalyst membrane to create new 02:44:34.027 --> 02:44:37.119 chemicals, basic chemical building blocks that 02:44:37.131 --> 02:44:40.037 are carbon based. And oxygen is a byproduct 02:44:40.049 --> 02:44:42.883 of that process. So, I think, so at scale. 02:44:42.895 --> 02:44:45.675 This can address up to three billion tons 02:44:45.687 --> 02:44:48.716 of carbon dioxide every year and touch upon a 02:44:48.728 --> 02:44:51.571 $300 billion petrochemical sector. Just by 02:44:51.583 --> 02:44:54.287 the molecules that we know we can impact 02:44:54.299 --> 02:44:57.413 better today, usually produced from petroleum. 02:44:57.425 --> 02:45:00.189 I know we're talking a lot about reducing 02:45:00.201 --> 02:45:03.439 emissions today, but I encourage you to look and 02:45:03.451 --> 02:45:06.154 think more about also negative emissions 02:45:06.166 --> 02:45:09.212 technologies, like ours, and also considering 02:45:09.224 --> 02:45:12.321 that the IPPCC report, that 1.5 degree report, 02:45:12.333 --> 02:45:15.111 also said that we need negative emissions 02:45:15.123 --> 02:45:18.160 technologies to not just reduce the emissions 02:45:18.172 --> 02:45:20.559 we're putting in the atmosphere but 02:45:20.571 --> 02:45:23.528 also, pull down the CO2 that's already there 02:45:23.540 --> 02:45:26.444 and other greenhouse gases that are already 02:45:26.456 --> 02:45:29.221 in the atmosphere. So we got our start at 02:45:29.233 --> 02:45:32.209 Stanford University. Kendra and Tasha on the 02:45:32.221 --> 02:45:35.380 left and right here are two of our co founders, 02:45:35.392 --> 02:45:37.968 and they were two graduate students at 02:45:37.980 --> 02:45:40.880 the JarameaLab, which is a leading catalyst 02:45:40.892 --> 02:45:43.805 lab at Stanford. And they were the first to 02:45:43.817 --> 02:45:46.842 grad students working on CO2 electrocatalysis 02:45:46.854 --> 02:45:49.627 or using catalysts to turn carbon dioxide 02:45:49.639 --> 02:45:52.406 into new products. And they made some key 02:45:52.418 --> 02:45:55.395 discoveries that are still used in many labs 02:45:55.407 --> 02:45:58.105 across the world today. They published a 02:45:58.117 --> 02:46:01.091 pretty important paper that showed there are 02:46:01.103 --> 02:46:04.071 16 different chemical products that could be 02:46:04.083 --> 02:46:06.931 produced through this process. And you can 02:46:06.943 --> 02:46:09.769 google that report if you're interested in 02:46:09.781 --> 02:46:12.752 looking further into it. They partnered with 02:46:12.764 --> 02:46:15.860 Nicholas Flanders who is our CEO. He was doing 02:46:15.872 --> 02:46:18.783 his MBA at Stanford and getting his Masters 02:46:18.795 --> 02:46:21.690 in Mechanical Engineering, and they decided 02:46:21.702 --> 02:46:24.345 maybe there is something we can do with 02:46:24.357 --> 02:46:27.456 climate. We can address some bigger challenges 02:46:27.468 --> 02:46:30.183 if we can commercialize this technology. 02:46:30.195 --> 02:46:33.221 So back, earlier this decade, we were part of 02:46:33.233 --> 02:46:36.073 the Cyclotron Road Program, which is a DOE 02:46:36.085 --> 02:46:38.852 funded program that enables science-based 02:46:38.864 --> 02:46:41.776 founders to incubate their technologies and 02:46:41.788 --> 02:46:44.619 make their first prototype at the Lawrence 02:46:44.631 --> 02:46:47.672 Berkeley National Lab in Berkeley, gives them 02:46:47.684 --> 02:46:50.786 an ability to continue working on that project 02:46:50.798 --> 02:46:53.448 and have funding for it. And so we were 02:46:53.473 --> 02:46:56.583 able to produce our first prototype. 02:46:56.595 --> 02:46:59.342 Since then, we've grown the team, and we're 02:46:59.354 --> 02:47:02.095 many more people in the lab. We're still in 02:47:02.107 --> 02:47:05.110 Berkeley, California, but we're not at Lawrence 02:47:05.122 --> 02:47:07.985 Berkeley lab anymore. So we are focused right 02:47:07.997 --> 02:47:10.622 now on producing three different chemical 02:47:10.634 --> 02:47:13.690 products from carbon dioxide in one single step. 02:47:13.702 --> 02:47:16.646 And those are carbon monoxide, or sin gas, sin 02:47:16.658 --> 02:47:19.582 gas being a combination of hydrogen and carbon 02:47:19.594 --> 02:47:22.468 monoxide, ethylene, and methane, which is why 02:47:22.480 --> 02:47:25.410 we're here today. And just a quick overview of 02:47:25.422 --> 02:47:28.239 those molecules. Carbon monoxide sounds kind 02:47:28.251 --> 02:47:31.052 of silly, but it's actually a very important 02:47:31.064 --> 02:47:33.878 industrial gas. So if you're wearing glasses 02:47:33.890 --> 02:47:37.011 today, there's a more than half, 50% chance, that 02:47:37.023 --> 02:47:39.906 you're probably wearing polycarbonate lenses. 02:47:39.918 --> 02:47:43.028 If you drive a car, it has polycarbonate all over 02:47:43.040 --> 02:47:45.851 that car and CO is a basic building walk for 02:47:45.863 --> 02:47:48.667 those materials of as well as foams like the 02:47:48.679 --> 02:47:51.621 foam in your running shoe or foam in furniture 02:47:51.633 --> 02:47:54.684 that you're sitting on. And at the large scales, 02:47:54.696 --> 02:47:57.384 we can actually produce jet fuel and other 02:47:57.396 --> 02:48:00.391 fuels from carbon monoxide or more specifically 02:48:00.403 --> 02:48:03.222 sin gas. So that combination of hydrogen and 02:48:03.234 --> 02:48:06.159 carbon monoxide. Ethylene is the basis of most 02:48:06.171 --> 02:48:09.233 modern plastics. So, you know, electric vehicles 02:48:09.245 --> 02:48:12.113 are still gonna continue to use plastics, and 02:48:12.125 --> 02:48:14.818 other applications for plastics will still 02:48:14.830 --> 02:48:17.757 continue on. And so we're gonna have to figure 02:48:17.769 --> 02:48:20.459 out how to displace petroleum and in those 02:48:20.471 --> 02:48:23.530 supply chains. And of course, methane. The major 02:48:23.542 --> 02:48:26.362 case, there, is around bio gas, and bio gas, 02:48:26.374 --> 02:48:29.670 typically for, we're talking about dairy operations, 02:48:29.682 --> 02:48:32.178 but landfills and waste water treatment 02:48:32.190 --> 02:48:35.179 plants and whatnot, they usually will have, the 02:48:35.191 --> 02:48:38.068 bio gas will be 20 to 50% carbon dioxide. And 02:48:38.080 --> 02:48:40.878 so today, often not CO2 is separated out and 02:48:40.890 --> 02:48:43.514 vented. What if we can actually take that 02:48:43.526 --> 02:48:46.456 greenhouse gas that today we are still venting 02:48:46.468 --> 02:48:49.535 and turn into additional methane? Well, that can 02:48:49.547 --> 02:48:52.407 actually be very, it could be very beneficial 02:48:52.419 --> 02:48:55.353 to the producers of the bio gas as well as our 02:48:55.365 --> 02:48:58.231 greenhouse gas emissions. One short way to to 02:48:58.243 --> 02:49:00.933 think about what we're doing is industrial 02:49:00.945 --> 02:49:03.996 photosynthesis. We're doing exactly what a plant 02:49:04.008 --> 02:49:07.008 does where we take CO2 and water in and use the 02:49:07.020 --> 02:49:09.701 sun's energy in some form to make valuable 02:49:09.713 --> 02:49:12.782 chemical products. And release oxygen. Just like 02:49:12.794 --> 02:49:15.965 a plant. So our technology is actually essentially 02:49:15.977 --> 02:49:18.536 an electoraliser that, and today we just 02:49:18.548 --> 02:49:21.538 mentioned water wlectrolysis is one way to make 02:49:21.550 --> 02:49:24.365 hydrogen from electricity. We're taking that 02:49:24.377 --> 02:49:27.177 kind of technology and making it possible to 02:49:27.189 --> 02:49:30.125 take carbon dioxide as an additional input and 02:49:30.137 --> 02:49:32.943 make carbon based products. And so this is a 02:49:32.955 --> 02:49:36.023 technology that's existed for decades, and we're 02:49:36.035 --> 02:49:39.020 able to leverage existing scale up pathways and 02:49:39.032 --> 02:49:41.905 have partnered with the manufacturer, a major 02:49:41.917 --> 02:49:44.721 manufacturer of these technologies, in order 02:49:44.733 --> 02:49:47.675 to build our systems. And so what you see here 02:49:47.687 --> 02:49:50.300 is an actual scale up a pathway for water 02:49:50.312 --> 02:49:53.438 electrolisers, and we are, our core technology is 02:49:53.450 --> 02:49:56.382 the membrane that goes inside of these systems 02:49:56.394 --> 02:49:59.150 and they can drop into an existing pathway. 02:49:59.150 --> 02:50:03.491 So today we're actually at this lab scale. It's about the 02:50:03.503 --> 02:50:07.549 size of a dishwasher, and that's a smaller scale pilot unit. In a 02:50:07.561 --> 02:50:12.031 couple years, we will be scaling up to this industrial unit, which looks 02:50:12.043 --> 02:50:16.279 like a shipping container. It's number three here, and at that size, 02:50:16.291 --> 02:50:20.819 it's the Lego blocks for any larger scale plant, so we can, its a modular 02:50:20.831 --> 02:50:24.880 system. We string a number of them together to meet larger needs, 02:50:24.892 --> 02:50:28.812 similar to like any water electrolysis as well. So our flagship 02:50:28.824 --> 02:50:33.124 molecule is carbon monoxide because there's a lot of lot of things we 02:50:33.136 --> 02:50:35.143 could do with it. And we are also 02:50:35.155 --> 02:50:37.785 developing ethylene and methane products. 02:50:37.797 --> 02:50:41.845 I'll talk a little bit about our CO2 impact. With our technology, 02:50:41.857 --> 02:50:46.083 it's actually possible to make a carbon negative material and carbon 02:50:46.095 --> 02:50:50.332 neutral fuel. Using renewable electricity. So the way we think about 02:50:50.344 --> 02:50:54.444 CO2 impact is in two ways with this darker, with the black part of 02:50:54.456 --> 02:50:58.629 this bar, we're showing that, for every molecule, every ton of that 02:50:58.641 --> 02:51:02.931 molecule that we're producing, how much CO2 is impacted, in the black 02:51:02.943 --> 02:51:07.122 part of the bar is showing how much CO2 is actually consumed in the 02:51:07.134 --> 02:51:11.533 process of making that ton of the product. And the gray part is showing 02:51:11.545 --> 02:51:15.772 how much of that CO2 is avoided because we're not using conventional 02:51:15.784 --> 02:51:19.821 methods of fossil fuel based conventional methods to produce that 02:51:19.833 --> 02:51:24.005 product. So for ethylene, it's three tons and two times, so about a 02:51:24.017 --> 02:51:28.296 five ton benefit, so it's possible to actually make a carbon negative 02:51:28.308 --> 02:51:32.600 material from that ethylene. For sin-gas, if we were using it for jet 02:51:32.612 --> 02:51:36.836 fuel, for instance, it could potentially be carbon neutral fuel. And 02:51:36.848 --> 02:51:40.961 of course, you guys know aviation is very difficult to decarbonize 02:51:40.973 --> 02:51:44.944 industry. So. I just want to talk a little bit about our bio gas 02:51:44.956 --> 02:51:49.430 application. This is a case study. It's not something that we've already 02:51:49.442 --> 02:51:53.664 built, but it is a business plan that we've looked at with a, it's a 02:51:53.676 --> 02:51:57.972 bio gas producer in North Carolina where we'd help them recover about 02:51:57.984 --> 02:52:02.204 $2 million of revenue just because of the additional CO2 that we can 02:52:02.216 --> 02:52:06.570 help them produce if they integrate our technology into their existing 02:52:06.582 --> 02:52:10.685 plant. And so that would be on the order of this kind of megawatts 02:52:10.697 --> 02:52:14.750 system, the shipping containers. And we're currently looking into 02:52:14.775 --> 02:52:18.658 other applications and starting new pilots all 02:52:18.670 --> 02:52:22.695 over California and the rest of the country, so open to other 02:52:22.707 --> 02:52:27.052 collaborations as well. We have been collaborating with SoCal Gas, 02:52:27.064 --> 02:52:31.225 had a lot of support for the past couple years. We successfully 02:52:31.237 --> 02:52:35.643 demonstrated a pathway to turn CO2 into more natural gas, so taking 02:52:35.655 --> 02:52:39.813 bio gas and turning all that CO2 into more methane. And we also 02:52:39.825 --> 02:52:43.978 see it as, of course, a potential to take renewable electricity 02:52:43.990 --> 02:52:48.479 that's at access capacity and actually store it in renewable natural 02:52:48.491 --> 02:52:52.506 gas. Just a little bit about the process. This looks a little 02:52:52.518 --> 02:52:56.740 complex. All it's saying is that you know, there's some CO2 that 02:52:56.752 --> 02:53:01.097 today is wasted because we can't use it as a methane. We can't use 02:53:01.109 --> 02:53:05.207 it as fuel, and we could just turn it into more methane. We're 02:53:05.219 --> 02:53:09.497 continuing this project, now, still with SoCal Gas, but also with 02:53:09.509 --> 02:53:13.864 PG&E. We're looking at ways to increase the conversion efficiency, 02:53:13.876 --> 02:53:17.900 energy efficiency of our technology still in development, and 02:53:17.912 --> 02:53:22.338 looking at other pilots and deployments statewide. And I'm happy to 02:53:22.350 --> 02:53:26.425 talk more about alternatives, ways that we're we're addressing 02:53:26.437 --> 02:53:30.589 the general challenges around CO2 conversion to methane. It's a 02:53:30.601 --> 02:53:35.071 single step process at a lower temperature and pressure to competing 02:53:35.083 --> 02:53:39.111 technologies. It's a little bit about jet fuel. Happy to talk 02:53:39.123 --> 02:53:43.266 about that later. Looks like I'm running on time, so, yeah, our 02:53:43.278 --> 02:53:47.368 customer base is basically companies that need to reduce their 02:53:47.380 --> 02:53:51.594 emissions, as well as companies that want to use products out of 02:53:51.606 --> 02:53:56.092 carbon dioxide, and have a climate impact and large scale renewables 02:53:56.104 --> 02:53:59.791 producers who were looking for new ways to use renewable 02:53:59.803 --> 02:54:04.281 electricity. Our commercialization plan, in a couple years, we'll be 02:54:04.293 --> 02:54:08.571 scaling up to the industrial system and methane and entholene are 02:54:08.583 --> 02:54:12.807 a couple of years. We'll start producing are smaller scale units 02:54:12.819 --> 02:54:17.223 around that time as well. And then it's a pretty, pretty fast scale 02:54:17.235 --> 02:54:21.392 it from there. Thank you for paying attention. And yeah, is one 02:54:21.404 --> 02:54:25.554 of the ways that we're turning CO2 into methane and packing the 02:54:25.566 --> 02:54:29.729 photosynthetic power of 37,000 trees in the size of a suitcase. 02:54:29.754 --> 02:54:34.564 All right, Any questions? 02:54:34.576 --> 02:54:38.595 It's all new cool tech. Go for it. 02:54:38.620 --> 02:54:44.010 Well, that that's really inspiring. To pack 37,000 trees 02:54:44.022 --> 02:54:48.946 in a suitcase. So you're gonna take carbon dioxide and air or 02:54:48.958 --> 02:54:54.275 water? Okay. And where is the water going to come from? And what's 02:54:54.287 --> 02:54:59.456 the source of the electricity that you're gonna use the process? 02:54:59.481 --> 02:55:01.688 Yep. So it's, uh, of course, every 02:55:01.700 --> 02:55:03.641 every like, deployment will be different. 02:55:03.641 --> 02:55:06.896 It'll be water from, it could actually 02:55:06.908 --> 02:55:10.425 capture directly from the air, but it's just generally, 02:55:10.437 --> 02:55:13.886 you know, water for any local system from water or the 02:55:13.898 --> 02:55:17.359 carbon dioxide can also come from, generally, it'll be 02:55:17.371 --> 02:55:20.801 a point source of emission of CO2. Or it could even be 02:55:20.813 --> 02:55:24.068 connected to a, there are new technologies emerging 02:55:24.080 --> 02:55:27.453 called direct air capture plants that are pulling CO2 02:55:27.465 --> 02:55:30.913 directly from the air. And there's also capture water. 02:55:30.938 --> 02:55:35.491 How much water will be used? You don't want a system 02:55:35.503 --> 02:55:40.140 that's gonna be really water intensive. Pardon me? Water per KW? 02:55:40.165 --> 02:55:44.448 I'm happy to talk about that off line. I think 02:55:44.460 --> 02:55:48.899 that's something that, well, yeah, we can address that later. 02:55:48.924 --> 02:55:51.645 Anyone else? Opus 12. Come on down. 02:55:51.669 --> 02:55:54.033 I think another question to 02:55:54.045 --> 02:55:56.652 look at is also, you know, you're looking at 02:55:56.664 --> 02:55:59.324 versus conventional processes that take a lot 02:55:59.336 --> 02:56:01.833 of water as well and so there's, there are 02:56:01.845 --> 02:56:04.386 certainly comparisons to be down there. And 02:56:04.398 --> 02:56:07.066 we are working with experts and LCAs and TEAs 02:56:07.078 --> 02:56:09.683 to look at that full life cycle because that 02:56:09.695 --> 02:56:12.428 is, of course, a very important consideration. 02:56:12.453 --> 02:56:15.283 Daniel Dodd, the CTO with Sierra 02:56:15.295 --> 02:56:18.270 Energy. Are you net producer of oxygen, then? 02:56:18.295 --> 02:56:18.689 Yes. 02:56:18.714 --> 02:56:21.228 Okay, because we're a net user 02:56:21.240 --> 02:56:23.602 of oxygen. So I'll talk to you after this. 02:56:23.627 --> 02:56:32.041 Collaboration in the workshop. All right. Thank you, Heidi. 02:56:32.053 --> 02:56:39.703 We'll be in touch. That's Heidi Lim. Right. Next, Daniel. You're up. 02:56:39.728 --> 02:56:42.273 Yeah. Wonderful. Good 02:56:42.285 --> 02:56:45.694 afternoon. Thank you for inviting me here. I'm 02:56:45.706 --> 02:56:48.755 Daniel Dodd, the CTO with Sierra Energy. I 02:56:48.767 --> 02:56:51.614 have a Master's in Aerospace Mechanical 02:56:51.626 --> 02:56:54.671 Engineering. I've been working with Sierra 02:56:54.683 --> 02:56:57.955 Energy since 2007. And I'm really responsible 02:56:57.967 --> 02:57:00.947 for the R&D and now the commercialization 02:57:00.959 --> 02:57:03.951 efforts of our gasification system. I was 02:57:03.963 --> 02:57:07.291 invited here today by our two project sponsors 02:57:07.303 --> 02:57:10.004 and collaborators, stakeholders, PG&E 02:57:10.016 --> 02:57:13.066 and SoCal Gas, and ultimately here to give 02:57:13.078 --> 02:57:15.926 you another update on a project that we 02:57:15.938 --> 02:57:19.056 just completed for them where we were doing 02:57:19.068 --> 02:57:21.842 a feasibility study, looking at taking 02:57:21.854 --> 02:57:25.050 our technology and a relatively large scales 02:57:25.062 --> 02:57:27.913 deploying it for the production of RNG. 02:57:27.938 --> 02:57:30.526 I'm working on it. 02:57:30.551 --> 02:57:33.190 No problem. Well, I suppose, while 02:57:33.214 --> 02:57:36.605 while they're being brought up, ultimately, 02:57:36.617 --> 02:57:39.905 the motivation of a lot of folks in the room, especially 02:57:39.917 --> 02:57:43.256 that was related to the RNG aspect, know that it's one of 02:57:43.268 --> 02:57:46.504 the best ways for us to green the California economy is 02:57:46.516 --> 02:57:49.737 by actually injecting RNG into the pipeline and forcing 02:57:49.749 --> 02:57:52.982 all of the users to consume green methane without their 02:57:52.994 --> 02:57:56.567 knowledge, without them knowing it. And same with electricity 02:57:56.579 --> 02:57:59.876 as well. If we can push green electrons in the grid, the 02:57:59.888 --> 02:58:03.503 user ultimately isn't going to know it, other than potentially 02:58:03.515 --> 02:58:06.567 an increase in their rates. But. So as a result, the 02:58:06.579 --> 02:58:09.855 main focus for Sierra Energy as part of this feasibility 02:58:09.867 --> 02:58:13.328 study with the SoCal Gas and on PG&E. Again, the motivation 02:58:13.340 --> 02:58:16.613 is production of renewable natural gas. Also focusing on 02:58:16.625 --> 02:58:20.141 taking waste wood materials, forests, residues, agricultural 02:58:20.153 --> 02:58:23.316 biomass, et cetera, that currently maybe open burnt or 02:58:23.328 --> 02:58:26.330 potentially going to co-gen facilities for at least 02:58:26.355 --> 02:58:29.715 some amount of electricity production. So it's 02:58:29.727 --> 02:58:32.881 also gonna help derisk some of the fire issues related to 02:58:32.893 --> 02:58:36.368 biomass buildup in California. For those co-gen facilities that 02:58:36.380 --> 02:58:39.703 have been able to obtain additional PPAs after their initial 02:58:39.715 --> 02:58:43.405 20 year PPAs expired, it's a good opportunity for us to potentially 02:58:43.417 --> 02:58:46.520 retrofit an existing facility, bring back those jobs and 02:58:46.532 --> 02:58:49.628 produce RNG instead of that same location using the same 02:58:49.640 --> 02:58:53.076 infrastructure, almost the same infrastructure, and logistics. 02:58:53.088 --> 02:58:56.388 The main focus on this feasibility study then was, you know, 02:58:56.400 --> 02:58:59.984 selecting a generic California site. We're working with utilities 02:58:59.996 --> 02:59:03.466 in Northern California and Southern. I didn't put this in here, 02:59:03.478 --> 02:59:06.578 but it was 1000 ton a day of wood going into our system. 02:59:06.590 --> 02:59:10.002 So including the moisture, it's probably about 1300 tons a day 02:59:10.014 --> 02:59:13.166 of material received on site. Co-gen facilities can go up 02:59:13.178 --> 02:59:16.378 up to that scale, but they're typically in the 400 to 1500 02:59:16.390 --> 02:59:19.712 ton a day of material received. So we're at the upper end of 02:59:19.737 --> 02:59:22.930 that co-gen siting or sizing, I should 02:59:22.942 --> 02:59:26.322 say. The expectation was that it would be 1000 PSIGs, the 02:59:26.334 --> 02:59:29.592 injection pressure, and that we would obviously have to 02:59:29.604 --> 02:59:33.107 meet Rule 21 and Rule 30. So with, our main focus, as well, 02:59:33.119 --> 02:59:36.607 was this to not just be an academic study. We really wanted 02:59:36.619 --> 02:59:39.827 to make sure that we were working with proven vendors, 02:59:39.839 --> 02:59:43.041 manufacturers of major equipment, and unit operations. 02:59:43.053 --> 02:59:46.092 And so in the end, we actually worked with about 50 02:59:46.104 --> 02:59:49.582 different unit operations and equipment vendors. Especially 02:59:49.594 --> 02:59:52.678 on the backend. We reached out about eight different 02:59:52.690 --> 02:59:56.116 manufacturers of catalytic RNG productions going from send 02:59:56.128 --> 02:59:59.567 gas through to renewable natural gas. We reached out about 02:59:59.579 --> 03:00:03.119 eight. We were only looking at the proven RNG manufacturers. 03:00:03.131 --> 03:00:06.159 So it's mainly catalytic, as opposed to some of the 03:00:06.171 --> 03:00:09.601 new novel electric K, for example, using microbes. And one 03:00:09.613 --> 03:00:12.821 of the core focuses was to evaluate the levelized cost 03:00:12.846 --> 03:00:16.089 of fuel production against various factors so 03:00:16.101 --> 03:00:19.356 ultimately optimizing our plan to really drive down the LCOF 03:00:19.368 --> 03:00:22.510 and provide a baseline study that could go into the future 03:00:22.522 --> 03:00:25.944 project development. So the main deliverables for Sierra Energy 03:00:25.956 --> 03:00:29.202 providing them through to SoCal Gas and PG&E were really the 03:00:29.214 --> 03:00:32.739 feasibility level engineering documents, the standard all the way 03:00:32.751 --> 03:00:36.164 from design basis all way through Cap Ex, OpEx and also a final 03:00:36.176 --> 03:00:39.493 report, including LCOF analysis and optimization. So our core 03:00:39.505 --> 03:00:42.803 IP is really in the gasifier. The unit that basically absorbs 03:00:42.815 --> 03:00:46.072 the solid material and converts it into a gas that cann then 03:00:46.084 --> 03:00:49.495 obviously be upgraded for additional reuse. So we didn't invent 03:00:49.507 --> 03:00:52.877 this technology, it was actually invented by folks from Kaiser 03:00:52.889 --> 03:00:56.297 Steel, down in Fontana in the LA basin. It's basically 100 year 03:00:56.309 --> 03:00:59.782 old blast furnace, which is typically used in the steel industry 03:00:59.794 --> 03:01:03.048 to convert iron ore into liquid hot metal. And the engineers 03:01:03.060 --> 03:01:06.218 basically realized that a large blast furnace is basically 03:01:06.230 --> 03:01:09.795 a gasifier. It consumes solid materials and converts it, typically 03:01:09.807 --> 03:01:12.956 into gas. So we inject oxygen and steam in at the base. We 03:01:12.968 --> 03:01:16.218 raise the temperature of the feed up to a peak of about 4000 03:01:16.230 --> 03:01:19.652 Fahrenheit or 2200 Celsius, and it's a big counter-current heat 03:01:19.664 --> 03:01:22.911 exchanger. As you can, see solid waste is coming in from the 03:01:22.923 --> 03:01:26.289 top, in this case for this study it was biomass ag residue, et 03:01:26.301 --> 03:01:29.447 cetera. It's coming in from the top, the high temperatures 03:01:29.459 --> 03:01:32.937 generated in the base of the gas fire rising up through that bed 03:01:32.949 --> 03:01:36.408 of material. So it's a very thermodynamically efficient process, 03:01:36.420 --> 03:01:39.571 big counter current effectively occurring in the gas fire. 03:01:39.583 --> 03:01:42.941 A large residence time material from the top, reaching the top 03:01:42.953 --> 03:01:46.110 of the bed to it, actually making its way down to where it 03:01:46.122 --> 03:01:49.423 reacts with the oxygen and steam. It takes a couple of hours. 03:01:49.435 --> 03:01:52.910 Quite a large thermal mass, which means it's quite a dynamically 03:01:52.922 --> 03:01:56.497 stable system on technology. And we get to such high temperatures, 03:01:56.509 --> 03:01:59.454 that any inorganic materials, any metals, dirt, glass, 03:01:59.466 --> 03:02:02.870 et cetera, are gonna melt. We're gonna be able to recover those 03:02:02.882 --> 03:02:06.084 as a highly alloyed metal and separately, a inert stone. So 03:02:06.096 --> 03:02:09.399 again, a blast furnace. Very, very simple. No moving parts in 03:02:09.411 --> 03:02:12.780 high temperature zones. So a very robust expectation on the up 03:02:12.792 --> 03:02:16.038 time and availability for these types of systems. So we were 03:02:16.050 --> 03:02:19.576 incorporated as part of the U. S. Army's Renewable Energy Testing 03:02:19.588 --> 03:02:22.894 Center program, which is the former McClellan Air Force base. 03:02:22.906 --> 03:02:26.117 We had about four years of operations, where we had a small 03:02:26.129 --> 03:02:29.694 PDU, process demonstration unit, that operated for about 750 hours 03:02:29.706 --> 03:02:32.910 on a number of different waste materials. We really focused 03:02:32.922 --> 03:02:36.120 on understanding our true heat and mass balance of our core 03:02:36.132 --> 03:02:39.555 equipment, which is the gasifier, again, solids to initial gas. 03:02:39.567 --> 03:02:42.708 We were basically flaring that gas as soon as It was made. 03:02:42.720 --> 03:02:46.087 We're working with UC Davis on actually doing the gas analysis 03:02:46.099 --> 03:02:49.353 and confirming the heat mass balance models. And Ultimately, 03:02:49.365 --> 03:02:52.738 we were driving towards truly understanding what our heat mass 03:02:52.750 --> 03:02:56.261 balances were and emissions profile so that we could actually get 03:02:56.273 --> 03:02:59.529 a first commercial reference facility permitted in the state 03:02:59.541 --> 03:03:02.578 of California. So that activity then lead to funding and 03:03:02.590 --> 03:03:06.012 contracts with the California Energy Commission, the Department 03:03:06.024 --> 03:03:09.271 of Defense. This is the system of Fort Hunter Liggett, which 03:03:09.283 --> 03:03:12.382 is in Southern Monterey County. It's a 10 to 20 ton a day 03:03:12.394 --> 03:03:15.915 gasification system. At the moment, we are producing electricity, 03:03:15.927 --> 03:03:19.353 or there's a generator on site with, I believe, it's a seaman's 03:03:19.365 --> 03:03:22.824 glass core gen, set to take the sing gas, which is mainly carbon 03:03:22.836 --> 03:03:26.041 monoxide and hydrogen and some CO2 as well and convert that 03:03:26.053 --> 03:03:29.518 into electricity. On the back end of the system, there is also a 03:03:29.530 --> 03:03:32.901 Fisher Tropes unit actually supplied by Research Triangle Inc. 03:03:32.913 --> 03:03:36.429 The focus for the military has been more on waste being converted 03:03:36.441 --> 03:03:39.381 all the way across into electricity. The focus for the 03:03:39.393 --> 03:03:42.701 California Energy Commission was waste all the way through to 03:03:42.713 --> 03:03:46.194 liquid fuels, and so that facility, it is a commercial reference 03:03:46.219 --> 03:03:49.447 facility. We've got a one barrel day reactor. 03:03:49.459 --> 03:03:52.752 That will be used to produce liquid fuels as a demonstration, 03:03:52.764 --> 03:03:55.998 certainly not at a commercial scale. So then we move back to 03:03:56.010 --> 03:03:59.362 the study for PG&E and SoCal gas and so some of the additional 03:03:59.374 --> 03:04:02.658 assumptions again, it's a generic California location. So all 03:04:02.670 --> 03:04:06.072 the labor rates were assumed for a blended California rate. The 03:04:06.084 --> 03:04:09.640 feed material, GTI actually completed a very good study early this 03:04:09.652 --> 03:04:13.008 year. Looking at taking a, I think it's a Duke energy or maybe 03:04:13.020 --> 03:04:16.196 DT Energy, even, a facility in Stockton and converting that 03:04:16.208 --> 03:04:19.555 into a gasification site and we use the same material blend so 03:04:19.567 --> 03:04:22.909 that people could draw conclusions directly. Apples to apples. 03:04:22.921 --> 03:04:26.115 So it's 40% forest innings, 40% CND, about 20% agricultural 03:04:26.127 --> 03:04:29.413 residues. Obviously, we could do it for a number of different 03:04:29.425 --> 03:04:32.935 feedstocks all the way through to waste, possibly waste tires, et 03:04:32.947 --> 03:04:36.345 cetera. But again, that was the focus for this study was on the 03:04:36.357 --> 03:04:39.661 material that is gonna make the most difference to California 03:04:39.673 --> 03:04:43.004 from a fire risk element and also from a greening the pipeline 03:04:43.016 --> 03:04:46.413 effort. Approximately 36% weight moisture is what's so received 03:04:46.425 --> 03:04:49.763 at the gate. We actually would pre dry that with waste heat in 03:04:49.775 --> 03:04:53.018 the plant before it goes into our system to an optimum about 03:04:53.030 --> 03:04:56.311 20% moisture content. Before it goes into our core equipment. 03:04:56.323 --> 03:04:59.723 But again, that's all happening within the balance of the plan. 03:04:59.735 --> 03:05:02.863 Utility costs were again working with our stakeholders, we 03:05:02.875 --> 03:05:06.174 assume $3 per mmbtu for any nat gas that is procured over the 03:05:06.186 --> 03:05:09.519 fence for any of scenarios where we are procuring that gasload 03:05:09.531 --> 03:05:12.876 over the fence and any electricity that's required to again be 03:05:12.888 --> 03:05:16.121 procured over the fence would be 12 cents per kilowatt hour. 03:05:16.133 --> 03:05:19.484 So here's a basic plot flow diagram. Solid materials coming in 03:05:19.496 --> 03:05:22.886 top left and ultimately, the renewable energy product, which in 03:05:22.898 --> 03:05:26.246 this case in that is RNG, bottom right. Our core IP, is in the 03:05:26.258 --> 03:05:29.547 two units in the center, the fast-lock gasifier and fast-lock 03:05:29.559 --> 03:05:32.913 polisher. For a system of this scale would probably be looking 03:05:32.938 --> 03:05:36.296 to get in materials down to about four inch 03:05:36.308 --> 03:05:39.565 minus. It would still typically be two sizing separation 03:05:39.577 --> 03:05:42.884 processes like a pre shredding and then a final shredding 03:05:42.896 --> 03:05:46.215 to make sure it's in that 2 to 4 inch size material. Then 03:05:46.227 --> 03:05:49.761 we will go through a waste heat boiler. Funnel some gas clean 03:05:49.773 --> 03:05:53.089 up to meet some of the requirements of the local adboards 03:05:53.101 --> 03:05:56.354 and then also the downstream. Send gas to RNG conversion 03:05:56.366 --> 03:05:59.631 technology equipment. We would have a separation unit on 03:05:59.643 --> 03:06:03.061 site, typically a pays for itself to actually buy that very 03:06:03.073 --> 03:06:06.674 large piece of equipment up front, as opposed to buying oxygen 03:06:06.686 --> 03:06:10.052 over the fence, which is another alternative for a project 03:06:10.064 --> 03:06:13.328 developer in the future. So study execution is mentioned 03:06:13.340 --> 03:06:16.531 before, we're really focused on using true numbers from 03:06:16.543 --> 03:06:19.689 industry rather than pure, purely being an Aspen based 03:06:19.701 --> 03:06:22.784 academic model. And so, yeah, we procured an outsider 03:06:22.796 --> 03:06:26.406 engineering firm based in Chicago, ultimately took about seven 03:06:26.418 --> 03:06:29.888 months to complete this study, where we were driving towards 03:06:29.900 --> 03:06:32.982 detailed specifications sheets and then working with, 03:06:32.994 --> 03:06:36.241 again those 50 different vendors in various areas of the 03:06:36.253 --> 03:06:39.512 plan to get actual bids and budgetary estimates and down 03:06:39.524 --> 03:06:42.940 selecting and optimizing with them. We were able to achieve 03:06:42.952 --> 03:06:46.208 the Rule 21 and Rule 30 requirements. I'll talk a little 03:06:46.220 --> 03:06:49.413 bit towards the end about the hydrogen requirement, but 03:06:49.425 --> 03:06:52.859 that was one of the hardest for us to meet. Just the nature 03:06:52.871 --> 03:06:56.057 of the send gas to RNG conversion, catalytic process on 03:06:56.069 --> 03:06:59.267 the back end. Reaching that 0.1% hydrogen by volume was 03:06:59.279 --> 03:07:02.642 probably the most stringent and most difficult requirement 03:07:02.654 --> 03:07:06.029 for us to meet. But we were able to meet them, at least at 03:07:06.041 --> 03:07:09.459 this feasibility study level. And the downstream technology 03:07:09.471 --> 03:07:13.072 provided was very comfortable. I mean, in those specifications 03:07:13.084 --> 03:07:16.335 as well. So the study results, ultimately, as well, also 03:07:16.347 --> 03:07:19.439 drove us towards a plot plan. Approximately 17 acres. 03:07:19.464 --> 03:07:22.707 Again, it's receiving about 1400 tons a day 03:07:22.719 --> 03:07:26.083 on average. Assuming you're not receiving materials over the 03:07:26.095 --> 03:07:29.289 weekend, you actually receive a little bit more five days 03:07:29.301 --> 03:07:32.506 a week. And there's about 20 days of storage on site, soa 03:07:32.518 --> 03:07:35.929 conventional Cogen facility. It's probably relatively similar 03:07:35.941 --> 03:07:39.199 in terms of footprints. About 17 acres, 60 to 70% of it is 03:07:39.211 --> 03:07:42.573 actually for the feed material reception, handling, storage. 03:07:42.585 --> 03:07:45.848 The other 30% is oxygen generation and then the conversion 03:07:45.860 --> 03:07:49.428 equipment. So high level Capex then and this is actually showing 03:07:49.440 --> 03:07:52.634 a low pressure scenario. I failed to mention at the start 03:07:52.646 --> 03:07:56.000 of this. We were gonna be reviewing high pressure operations 03:07:56.012 --> 03:07:59.323 on a gasification system and low pressure. High pressure is 03:07:59.335 --> 03:08:02.685 operating a gasifier about 150 PSIG. Low pressure was at 15. 03:08:02.697 --> 03:08:06.005 And so these, this is the capex for the low pressure, which 03:08:06.017 --> 03:08:09.263 is actually slightly more expensive than the high pressure 03:08:09.275 --> 03:08:12.699 scenario, but ultimately about $180 million of core motorized 03:08:12.724 --> 03:08:15.988 packaged equipment before actually installation 03:08:16.000 --> 03:08:19.433 inside plus development cost, PC cost, etcetera, so total install 03:08:19.445 --> 03:08:22.976 costs plus or minus 30%, on that, was about $200 million. Obviously 03:08:22.988 --> 03:08:26.270 is very highly dependent on the specific site and the specific 03:08:26.282 --> 03:08:29.705 companies you're working with. as to that additional installation 03:08:29.717 --> 03:08:32.997 costs and project development costs. The core equipment itself 03:08:33.009 --> 03:08:36.595 would be relatively stable in cost across North America. Separately, 03:08:36.607 --> 03:08:39.527 we're working with UC Davis, actually conducting a life 03:08:39.539 --> 03:08:42.954 cycle assessment on our fastox gasification technology. So it was 03:08:42.966 --> 03:08:46.394 separate from this study, but we were able to utilize the results 03:08:46.406 --> 03:08:49.723 of it as part of this feasibility study for PG&E and SoCal gas. 03:08:49.735 --> 03:08:53.012 Ultimately U. C. Davis were looking at a smaller 50 ton today. 03:08:53.024 --> 03:08:56.495 So the system I showed a minute ago at Fort Hunter Ligate is about 03:08:56.507 --> 03:08:59.729 20. We looked at a 50 ton today, which is our next commercial 03:08:59.741 --> 03:09:03.061 scale up expected in the next 24 months or so. We assumed a 90% 03:09:03.073 --> 03:09:06.198 up time. As you go up in scale, typically, your up time can 03:09:06.222 --> 03:09:09.667 actually start driving upwards of north of 90%. 03:09:09.679 --> 03:09:13.026 We're also assuming municipal solid waste where as obviously 03:09:13.038 --> 03:09:16.544 for the PGA&E sample study, we're very much focused on biomass, 03:09:16.556 --> 03:09:19.634 so ultimately, it certainly wasn't directly applicable. 03:09:19.646 --> 03:09:22.929 But we were conservative in using results from it, and even 03:09:22.941 --> 03:09:26.291 on MSW at small scales, so it's less efficient is using MSW, 03:09:26.303 --> 03:09:29.867 which is a higher carbon intensity than obviously biomass, which 03:09:29.879 --> 03:09:33.070 has is almost 100% biogenic carbon. We were still looking 03:09:33.082 --> 03:09:36.357 at about 12 to 15 grams of CO2 equivalent for megajoule. U. 03:09:36.369 --> 03:09:39.601 C. Davis, I think used $185 per ton of carbon for the LCFS 03:09:39.613 --> 03:09:42.894 credit and ultimately that drove towards the LCFS credit of 03:09:42.906 --> 03:09:46.418 about 15 to $16 depending on plan configuration. And I suppose, 03:09:46.430 --> 03:09:49.872 just going back to a point again, ultimately at a larger scale 03:09:49.884 --> 03:09:52.954 and using biomass as a feedstock, carbon intensity, and 03:09:52.966 --> 03:09:56.085 especially if you're looking at carbon sequestration and 03:09:56.097 --> 03:09:59.393 storage or re-utilisation, would most certainly go negative 03:09:59.418 --> 03:10:02.779 as well. If we were to incorporate those technologies 03:10:02.791 --> 03:10:06.213 and the fact that we all be operating at large. Okay, rolling through 03:10:06.225 --> 03:10:09.347 the last few slides, then, quite a difficult slide to really go 03:10:09.359 --> 03:10:12.640 through in detail. But ultimately, the most optimum plant scenario 03:10:12.652 --> 03:10:15.967 for us was running a high pressure, which for our core equipment is 03:10:15.979 --> 03:10:19.355 150 PSI doing sin gas recycle, which means that any heating that has 03:10:19.367 --> 03:10:22.836 to happen within our plant instead of pulling that gas over the fence, 03:10:22.848 --> 03:10:25.985 instead, you'd actually recycle some of your green sin gas back 03:10:25.997 --> 03:10:29.457 into the process, so for the project specifics, that actually made the 03:10:29.469 --> 03:10:32.795 most sense to recycle your sin gas, which would decrease the amount 03:10:32.807 --> 03:10:36.028 of RNG you're actually exporting. But ultimately it made the most 03:10:36.040 --> 03:10:39.470 sense economically. And what this is showing is that at those scales, 03:10:39.482 --> 03:10:42.798 including an LCFS credit about $15 mmbtu, which again is relatively 03:10:42.810 --> 03:10:45.992 low. Assuming we're getting paid to take the material again with 03:10:46.004 --> 03:10:48.044 gasification, especially high temperature 03:10:48.056 --> 03:10:49.474 systems like this, we should 03:10:49.486 --> 03:10:52.771 be able to accept waste materials as opposed to procuring biomass. 03:10:52.771 --> 03:10:56.516 We obviously show the pricing on there, as well, 03:10:56.528 --> 03:10:59.933 if you procure a clean fuel at $30 a ton. But ultimately, 03:10:59.945 --> 03:11:03.344 if we were to get paid $30 a ton to receive the material, 03:11:03.356 --> 03:11:06.355 we can actually pay the utility about $9 per MMBTU 03:11:06.367 --> 03:11:09.468 to take the nat gas away, the RNG away, and we still 03:11:09.480 --> 03:11:12.829 break even over 15 years. If we have to pay for the feed 03:11:12.841 --> 03:11:16.478 material at $30 a ton. If it was a clean fuel. We could still 03:11:16.490 --> 03:11:19.727 pay the utility to take the RNG away at about a dollar 03:11:19.739 --> 03:11:23.302 per mmbtu. Again, that assumes an LCFS credit and some other 03:11:23.314 --> 03:11:26.712 specific assumptions as well that we can go into offline. 03:11:26.724 --> 03:11:30.000 Obviously, conducted a sensitivity analysis on this. So 03:11:30.012 --> 03:11:33.358 that was just the simple calculations that Sierra Energy 03:11:33.370 --> 03:11:36.818 did using our own tables. We also then used the CEC's LCOF 03:11:36.830 --> 03:11:40.291 calculator and ran through a couple of difference specific 03:11:40.303 --> 03:11:43.698 scenarios and looked at the sensitivity analysis on that. 03:11:43.710 --> 03:11:46.766 And ultimately, what this kind of drives towards is 03:11:46.791 --> 03:11:50.169 if we weren't getting any kind of royalty or 03:11:50.181 --> 03:11:53.571 payment for removing CO2 and potentially selling that and if 03:11:53.583 --> 03:11:56.967 we have to procure the feed material, we're looking at about 03:11:56.979 --> 03:12:00.208 $2 per mmbtu to break even over 15 years, so I'm throwing 03:12:00.220 --> 03:12:03.601 a lot of numbers at you there, but ultimately, if we have to 03:12:03.613 --> 03:12:07.006 buy the material instead of us being able to accept a waste, 03:12:07.018 --> 03:12:10.293 if we're not getting any kind of credit for the CO2 that's 03:12:10.305 --> 03:12:13.593 removed from the process for potential utilization. But we 03:12:13.605 --> 03:12:16.699 are receiving that LCFS credit, we would have to charge 03:12:16.711 --> 03:12:20.262 probably about a $1.70 per MMBtu, which again is lower than the 03:12:20.274 --> 03:12:23.875 procurement price that PG&E and Semper are currently paying. So, 03:12:23.887 --> 03:12:27.222 ultimately, conclusion to this, Then, FastOx based projects 03:12:27.234 --> 03:12:30.498 for the conversion of waste wood do exhibit strong project 03:12:30.510 --> 03:12:33.675 economics that potentially don't require carbon credits. 03:12:33.687 --> 03:12:36.790 Obviously, devil's in the details and it depends on the 03:12:36.802 --> 03:12:40.362 specific project. This project was producing about four billion 03:12:40.387 --> 03:12:43.564 cubic feet per annum of RNG and if we were to 03:12:43.576 --> 03:12:47.027 retrofit all of the existing co-gen facilities in California with 03:12:47.039 --> 03:12:50.379 this technology we would probably be able to offset about 2% of 03:12:50.391 --> 03:12:53.691 California's current natural gas usage. Obviously, that's just 03:12:53.703 --> 03:12:57.092 looking at the co-gen facilities. Obviously, there are thousands 03:12:57.104 --> 03:13:00.506 more tons of material out there in California. It's difficult to 03:13:00.518 --> 03:13:03.756 potentially obtain that material because the steepness of the 03:13:03.768 --> 03:13:07.176 hills or just the remote locations, but again, different project 03:13:07.188 --> 03:13:10.621 developers will find specific areas where this technology will be 03:13:10.633 --> 03:13:13.922 able to plug in to make a significant difference on top of the 03:13:13.934 --> 03:13:17.427 feedstock that is currently going to co-gen facilities. The reason 03:13:17.439 --> 03:13:20.838 we support this standard renewable gas interconnection tariff is 03:13:20.850 --> 03:13:24.235 ultimately, simplifying, streamlining red tape and documentation 03:13:24.247 --> 03:13:27.643 requirements is obviously going to make it a lot cheaper for the 03:13:27.655 --> 03:13:30.941 project developer, but also on the utility side as well on. So 03:13:30.953 --> 03:13:34.356 overall, it's gonna decrease our cost of RNG production is gonna 03:13:34.381 --> 03:13:37.898 lower your cost of procurement off the RNG as well, 03:13:37.910 --> 03:13:41.123 which is ultimately gonna drive towards increased project in 03:13:41.135 --> 03:13:44.711 technology adoption, and then one final point, which again, is that 03:13:44.723 --> 03:13:48.047 for us, it was actually quite difficult, not impossible, quite 03:13:48.059 --> 03:13:51.420 difficult to meet that 0.1 percent volume hydrogen requirement. 03:13:51.432 --> 03:13:54.701 And I know it's a potentially different topic of debate for a 03:13:54.713 --> 03:13:57.975 different session. But ultimately, if we were able to see the 03:13:57.987 --> 03:14:01.367 hydrogen requirements increasing, we would be able to see quite 03:14:01.379 --> 03:14:04.837 anincrease in yield available of RNG. So the way that we actually 03:14:04.849 --> 03:14:07.951 drive down towards meeting that requirement is actually by 03:14:07.963 --> 03:14:11.165 oxidizing the hydrogen. But that unfortunately oxidizes some 03:14:11.177 --> 03:14:14.390 of your methane at the same time as well. So it's additional 03:14:14.402 --> 03:14:17.812 equipment. It's additional oxygen. Which again, if we're allowed 03:14:17.824 --> 03:14:21.298 to inject slightly higher hydrogen amounts, up to say 1%, I think 03:14:21.310 --> 03:14:24.672 we would be able to, uh, significantly decrease our overall Cap 03:14:24.684 --> 03:14:27.953 X and Owl X. Thank you for time. Happy to take any questions. 03:14:27.978 --> 03:14:32.400 Thank you very much. Any questions for 03:14:32.412 --> 03:14:36.523 Daniel? As we're considering, whether or not we're 03:14:36.535 --> 03:14:40.559 asking questions for Daniel, I invite you all the 03:14:40.571 --> 03:14:45.172 standup, stretch break for 30 seconds. And then our next 03:14:45.184 --> 03:14:49.427 person we're calling down is Michael. Stretch break. 03:14:49.439 --> 03:14:53.694 30 seconds. Stand up. Get that blood running back to 03:14:53.706 --> 03:14:57.955 your brain. Thank you very much, Daniel. Please talk 03:14:57.967 --> 03:15:02.309 to my intern. He works at UC Davis. He's at UC Davis. 03:15:05.705 --> 03:15:10.447 All right, Stretch Break is concluding, 03:15:10.459 --> 03:15:15.129 and we're going to continue on more cool projects. Low, 03:15:15.141 --> 03:15:19.889 zero, negative carbon-intensity projects interconnecting 03:15:19.901 --> 03:15:24.160 with system, decarbonizingthe natural gas pipeline 03:15:24.172 --> 03:15:28.812 system. More information is coming. Please come back to 03:15:28.824 --> 03:15:33.393 order. We just have a few more left. We'll get through 03:15:33.405 --> 03:15:37.801 our questions and then I'll let you go. James. Thank 03:15:37.813 --> 03:15:42.138 you. Ken. Thank you. All right, Michael, you're up. 03:15:42.163 --> 03:15:44.895 Okay. Thank you guys very much for 03:15:44.907 --> 03:15:47.598 having me today. I wanted to take a, well, first of 03:15:47.610 --> 03:15:50.348 all, my name is Michael Cooper. I'm the manager over 03:15:50.360 --> 03:15:53.109 the Key accounts team for Southwest Gas. If you guys 03:15:53.121 --> 03:15:56.012 have had opportunity to work with me and my team, we're 03:15:56.024 --> 03:15:58.770 responsible for working with all the large customers 03:15:58.782 --> 03:16:01.523 within all of our territories, as far as the account 03:16:01.535 --> 03:16:04.080 management, project inception, as far as project 03:16:04.092 --> 03:16:06.773 management, also, so lots of the innovative and new 03:16:06.785 --> 03:16:09.478 and cool projects come through me and my team. So I 03:16:09.490 --> 03:16:12.073 have a luxury and have been able to see these RNG 03:16:12.085 --> 03:16:14.992 projects through multiple different states and multiple 03:16:15.004 --> 03:16:17.792 different territories. And I want to kind of come and 03:16:17.804 --> 03:16:20.604 talk to you guys today about some of the things we've 03:16:20.616 --> 03:16:23.099 seen here in California and some of the lessons 03:16:23.111 --> 03:16:25.865 learned and how they kind of diverse a little bit. I 03:16:25.877 --> 03:16:28.554 have two different projects that I'm gonna go over, 03:16:28.566 --> 03:16:31.359 very, very briefly, and so there's, the scope of work 03:16:31.371 --> 03:16:34.158 for these projects and Southwest Gas involvement kind 03:16:34.170 --> 03:16:36.917 of very significantly on both of them. I caution you 03:16:36.929 --> 03:16:39.817 now and apologize in advance that I won't be able to go 03:16:39.829 --> 03:16:42.573 into great detail with some of the specifics related 03:16:42.585 --> 03:16:45.271 to the project, as we have in NDA's and some of the 03:16:45.283 --> 03:16:47.929 concepts of still being put together in inception. 03:16:47.941 --> 03:16:50.724 But I think there's enough public information I could 03:16:50.736 --> 03:16:53.323 report on that gives you guys a good flavor about 03:16:53.335 --> 03:16:56.071 some of the things that we're looking at and some of 03:16:56.083 --> 03:16:58.884 the nuances that we've had to deal with. So the first 03:16:58.896 --> 03:17:01.629 project is Rialto Bioenergy Facility, and their kind 03:17:01.641 --> 03:17:04.127 of like a waste recycling facilities in Rialto, 03:17:04.139 --> 03:17:06.931 California. There was a groundbreaking in December of 03:17:06.943 --> 03:17:09.746 last year for new component of this overall site that 03:17:09.771 --> 03:17:12.523 focuses on taking, I mean, 03:17:12.535 --> 03:17:15.359 one of things that was brought up earlier was 03:17:15.371 --> 03:17:18.067 organic waste within the state. And so once 03:17:18.079 --> 03:17:20.910 it's completed, what they anticipate is going 03:17:20.922 --> 03:17:23.800 to be late 2020., This facility here will take 03:17:23.812 --> 03:17:26.455 700 tons, yeah, 700 tons of food waste and 03:17:26.467 --> 03:17:29.166 300 tons of biosolids within the state on a 03:17:29.178 --> 03:17:31.766 daily basis and convert that to renewable 03:17:31.778 --> 03:17:34.531 natural gas, renewable electricity, and also 03:17:34.543 --> 03:17:37.246 class A fertilizer, organic fertilizer. And 03:17:37.258 --> 03:17:39.524 so the way this is set up, it was the 03:17:39.536 --> 03:17:42.738 groundbreaking for it. Southwest Gas's involvement 03:17:42.750 --> 03:17:45.506 wasn't tied to the interconnection for this, 03:17:45.518 --> 03:17:48.225 however, the details of the interconnection 03:17:48.237 --> 03:17:50.875 will tie to like three-quarters of a mile, 03:17:50.887 --> 03:17:53.292 six inche pipeline that was run to the 03:17:53.304 --> 03:17:55.872 upstream provider, and then we have a gas 03:17:55.884 --> 03:17:58.894 procurement arrangement with this facility here. 03:17:58.906 --> 03:18:01.787 So this is something that I think will address 03:18:01.799 --> 03:18:04.446 lots of the issues going on in California, 03:18:04.458 --> 03:18:07.213 but also shows that it's a proof of concept, 03:18:07.225 --> 03:18:09.992 something for the state to be very proud of, 03:18:10.004 --> 03:18:12.704 too. Once it's all said and done, this will 03:18:12.716 --> 03:18:15.304 be the largest facility of this type with 03:18:15.316 --> 03:18:18.070 in North America, something to be very, very 03:18:18.082 --> 03:18:20.848 proud of and hopefully a proof of concept of 03:18:20.860 --> 03:18:23.435 other things that's to come. The next one 03:18:23.447 --> 03:18:26.403 that's in Victor Valley. Or Apple Valley. VVWRA 03:18:26.415 --> 03:18:28.741 Is Victor Valley Waste Water Resources 03:18:28.753 --> 03:18:31.768 association. This is a project that's been much 03:18:31.780 --> 03:18:34.543 more labor intensive on our end because it's 03:18:34.555 --> 03:18:37.329 a much more involved where we're going to be 03:18:37.355 --> 03:18:40.135 doing gas procurement as well as 03:18:40.147 --> 03:18:42.938 interconnection. Currently, they have digesters on 03:18:42.950 --> 03:18:45.845 site as three of the five digesters are operational. 03:18:45.857 --> 03:18:48.436 But there's a extensive remediation that needs 03:18:48.448 --> 03:18:51.121 to take place to get all of the digesters up and 03:18:51.133 --> 03:18:54.037 operational to full capacity, but with those current 03:18:54.049 --> 03:18:56.782 digesters, you can see they push about 11 million 03:18:56.794 --> 03:18:59.485 therms, or 11 million gallons of water that they 03:18:59.497 --> 03:19:02.333 process per day. The full capacity of that facility 03:19:02.345 --> 03:19:05.029 is up to 18 million gallons of water, with their 03:19:05.041 --> 03:19:07.718 three digested that are going through right now, 03:19:07.730 --> 03:19:10.529 they're producing 280 million therms, or 1,000,000 03:19:10.541 --> 03:19:13.380 cubic feet of gas, on the annual basis, or bio gas, 03:19:13.392 --> 03:19:16.023 on an annual basis. They anticipate once you do 03:19:16.035 --> 03:19:18.386 get everything fully remediated and up and 03:19:18.398 --> 03:19:21.365 operational, you're gonna to see about a 33% increase 03:19:21.377 --> 03:19:23.934 in natural production. So that's gonna bump it 03:19:23.946 --> 03:19:26.625 up to about 350 to 370 million cubic feet of bio 03:19:26.637 --> 03:19:29.475 gas. And so our involvement is involved with taking 03:19:29.487 --> 03:19:32.117 the gas away because w're going tie it directly 03:19:32.129 --> 03:19:34.799 into our system. In all the various territories, 03:19:34.811 --> 03:19:37.439 we've seen different hurdles, and you guys have 03:19:37.451 --> 03:19:40.291 been involved with these types of projects. There's 03:19:40.303 --> 03:19:42.991 the financial issues as far as the viability the 03:19:43.003 --> 03:19:46.001 product. So I will echo the same thing that was echoed 03:19:46.013 --> 03:19:48.694 earlier as far as, You know, the additional cost 03:19:48.706 --> 03:19:51.655 funds available for these projects. This is a project 03:19:51.667 --> 03:19:54.189 that we're seeing they're still going through 03:19:54.201 --> 03:19:56.763 getting all of the funding for it, and so that 03:19:56.775 --> 03:19:59.568 will be something a great asset to be able to have 03:19:59.580 --> 03:20:02.367 for these types of projects, not just in the state 03:20:02.379 --> 03:20:05.069 of California, but just in another states. Also, 03:20:05.094 --> 03:20:07.967 Another hurdle we run into is the 03:20:07.979 --> 03:20:10.698 infrastructure and takeaway capacity. And so far 03:20:10.710 --> 03:20:13.422 as this site here, worked out very well, because 03:20:13.434 --> 03:20:16.159 we have a high pressure line already on site and 03:20:16.171 --> 03:20:18.991 we have enough take with capacity to take away all 03:20:19.003 --> 03:20:21.669 of their production they want to be able to do. 03:20:21.681 --> 03:20:24.397 But I've seen facilities where they have a great 03:20:24.409 --> 03:20:27.025 project, but the natural gas infrastructure is 03:20:27.037 --> 03:20:29.967 miles and miles away, and so the economics generally 03:20:29.979 --> 03:20:32.699 doesn't work for those projects, when you factor 03:20:32.711 --> 03:20:35.481 that in on top of all of the other considerations 03:20:35.493 --> 03:20:38.107 that go into that. This is one that we've been 03:20:38.119 --> 03:20:40.775 working on for a while. Anergia is the one that 03:20:40.787 --> 03:20:43.510 they, VVWRA, their board approved for them to be 03:20:43.522 --> 03:20:46.350 able to have the partnership to get everything set 03:20:46.362 --> 03:20:48.924 up. I believe the way it's going to be worked 03:20:48.936 --> 03:20:51.754 out is VVWRA are responsible for the digesters and 03:20:51.766 --> 03:20:54.541 Anergia will be responsible for all the scrubbing 03:20:54.553 --> 03:20:57.210 equipment and we will have an arrangement to be 03:20:57.222 --> 03:20:59.836 able to inject into our pipeline. And so those 03:20:59.848 --> 03:21:02.503 are 2 high level projects that we dealt with in 03:21:02.515 --> 03:21:05.126 the state. One of them is going through, as we 03:21:05.138 --> 03:21:08.076 anticipate having gas flowing into our system within 03:21:08.088 --> 03:21:10.649 the end of next year. And then the other one, 03:21:10.661 --> 03:21:13.370 we're still working through the details on that, 03:21:13.382 --> 03:21:16.047 getting that all squared away, but just want to 03:21:16.059 --> 03:21:18.774 give you a general flavors on the things that we 03:21:18.786 --> 03:21:21.568 deal with. If you guys have any questions, I know 03:21:21.580 --> 03:21:24.570 that we're pressed for time, so I have all my contact 03:21:24.582 --> 03:21:27.083 information, there, phone number, email. But 03:21:27.095 --> 03:21:29.813 feel free to reach out to us If you guys want to 03:21:29.825 --> 03:21:32.554 talk offline. I have cards and we can follow up. 03:21:32.579 --> 03:21:37.797 Thank you, MR. Cooper. That was great. That was 03:21:37.809 --> 03:21:43.203 wonderful. Any question? Southwest Gas. Mr Cooper. Thank you very 03:21:43.215 --> 03:21:48.318 much for coming into town and telling us about this stuff. All 03:21:48.330 --> 03:21:53.688 right. Next, let me call down Andy Foster. Please. And thank you. 03:21:53.713 --> 03:21:59.214 Thank you very much. It's kind of like being the speaker just 03:21:59.226 --> 03:22:04.524 before lunch, where I'm standing between you and your parking validation. 03:22:04.536 --> 03:22:10.115 So we will make this quick. I have the advantage also, that some of the other 03:22:10.127 --> 03:22:15.216 speakers didn't have, which is Daryl Moss went ahead of me, and Darryl 03:22:15.228 --> 03:22:20.661 and I are in very similar places. So some of my slides I could move through 03:22:20.673 --> 03:22:25.831 pretty quickly. Let me start off so quickly with, uh, here we go. AEMET 03:22:25.843 --> 03:22:31.138 is publicly funded, a public company, we were founded in 2006 Eric McAfee 03:22:31.150 --> 03:22:36.600 who has been a venture capitalists in Silicon Valley for a number of years. 03:22:36.612 --> 03:22:41.748 We own currently a 65 million gallon per year ethanol renewable ethanol 03:22:41.760 --> 03:22:47.265 facility in Keys, California. It's the largest ethanol plant in the state of 03:22:47.277 --> 03:22:50.551 California, one of the largest bio-refineries 03:22:50.563 --> 03:22:52.777 in California. We also produce 03:22:52.789 --> 03:22:57.942 about 400,000 tons of animal feed on an, every year, which is sold into 03:22:57.954 --> 03:23:03.379 the local dairies. And so there was our sort of introduction into the whole 03:23:03.391 --> 03:23:08.685 bio gas world. We at the 2018 CDFADDRDP received two grants for our 1st 2 03:23:08.697 --> 03:23:14.271 dairies. We're about 80% completed on those. It was 2018 grants, we're almost 03:23:14.283 --> 03:23:19.368 done, it's 2019, and we'll complete those in January. We're building a 03:23:19.393 --> 03:23:21.822 3.7 mile pipeline from the 03:23:21.834 --> 03:23:24.624 dairies to the ethanol plant where we will have 03:23:24.636 --> 03:23:27.188 cleanup equipment. I'll go into that just a 03:23:27.200 --> 03:23:29.996 second, but we're well underway. Phase two will 03:23:30.008 --> 03:23:32.906 take us, really, by the time it's all done, we're 03:23:32.918 --> 03:23:35.479 gonna have about a 35 mile private pipeline 03:23:35.491 --> 03:23:38.220 out in the Series down to Hilmar area. So it's 03:23:38.232 --> 03:23:40.740 a pretty extensive pipeline process. So at 03:23:40.752 --> 03:23:43.532 AEMETAS, keep remembering to advance my slides. 03:23:43.544 --> 03:23:46.220 Sort of look at things in three stages. First 03:23:46.232 --> 03:23:49.076 generation, second generation, third generation. 03:23:49.088 --> 03:23:51.711 We started off in the corn ethanol business, 03:23:51.723 --> 03:23:54.448 which is a very respectable business to be in. 03:23:54.460 --> 03:23:56.963 Remember, it's a renewable fuel. I know it 03:23:56.975 --> 03:23:59.765 gets a bad rap from a lot of people, but it's a 03:23:59.777 --> 03:24:02.461 good thing and as well as bio diesel. We have 03:24:02.473 --> 03:24:05.248 a 50 million gallon per year biodiesel plant in 03:24:05.260 --> 03:24:07.932 Cacanada, India. Really, where we're starting 03:24:07.944 --> 03:24:10.667 to head in now, as though, as the industry has 03:24:10.679 --> 03:24:13.240 transformed. I've been in this industry for 03:24:13.252 --> 03:24:16.088 now 12 years, and I remember the very beginning, 03:24:16.100 --> 03:24:18.541 everybody said cellulosic Ethanol is just 03:24:18.553 --> 03:24:21.221 two years away, and it's taking us some time, 03:24:21.233 --> 03:24:23.797 but we're actually there. The next phase is 03:24:23.809 --> 03:24:26.295 we start moving into renewable natural gas 03:24:26.307 --> 03:24:28.805 and lower CI ethanol at the corn plant. So 03:24:28.817 --> 03:24:31.600 electrification is a big emphasis for everybody 03:24:31.612 --> 03:24:34.523 in the state of California today. We're probably, 03:24:34.535 --> 03:24:37.141 in the next two years, going to do about $30 03:24:37.153 --> 03:24:40.003 million worth of electrification projects at the 03:24:40.015 --> 03:24:42.451 Keys ethanol plant. We use a lot of steam 03:24:42.463 --> 03:24:45.203 there, so we're gonna be converting that over. 03:24:45.227 --> 03:24:48.030 It's a great thing. I don't want 03:24:48.042 --> 03:24:50.563 to see California kind of go down the path 03:24:50.575 --> 03:24:53.325 that the United States was, in the 1970s, when 03:24:53.337 --> 03:24:56.158 some of you were old enough to remember sitting 03:24:56.170 --> 03:24:58.976 in gasoline lines. So we want to make sure that 03:24:58.988 --> 03:25:01.512 we have a balanced approach to that, which 03:25:01.524 --> 03:25:04.218 is why biofuels plays a real critical role as 03:25:04.230 --> 03:25:06.819 we move forward, and then, third generation 03:25:06.831 --> 03:25:09.693 really is when we start talking about cellulasic 03:25:09.705 --> 03:25:12.052 ethanol. We announced earlier this year 03:25:12.064 --> 03:25:14.580 that we're going to be building a plant in 03:25:14.592 --> 03:25:17.532 Riverbank using a similar thermal technology that 03:25:17.544 --> 03:25:20.116 the gentleman from Sierra was here. There's 03:25:20.128 --> 03:25:23.007 differences, but same general idea to make a low 03:25:23.019 --> 03:25:25.655 below zero bio fuel. So if you look at these 03:25:25.667 --> 03:25:28.316 two things, Heidi talked about this earlier, 03:25:28.328 --> 03:25:31.187 well, it's great to talk about slowing GHG, when 03:25:31.199 --> 03:25:33.952 you talk about biofuels, you're actually going 03:25:33.964 --> 03:25:36.593 below zero. So we're actually taking CO2 out 03:25:36.605 --> 03:25:39.188 of the atmosphere. And that's a distinction 03:25:39.200 --> 03:25:42.120 that is sort of unique to many of these projects, 03:25:42.132 --> 03:25:44.536 that we're all talking about here today, 03:25:44.548 --> 03:25:47.357 and I think it's important to remember, because 03:25:47.369 --> 03:25:49.661 again, electrification is the buzzword 03:25:49.673 --> 03:25:51.770 in California now. Everybody's about 03:25:51.782 --> 03:25:54.888 electrification, electrification. No problem. We're 03:25:54.900 --> 03:25:57.414 on board with that. But if that's the only 03:25:57.426 --> 03:26:00.186 policy that we pursue as a state, policymakers 03:26:00.198 --> 03:26:02.826 are gonna make a huge mistake when there's a 03:26:02.838 --> 03:26:05.655 PSPS, an earthquake, and a fire all at the same 03:26:05.667 --> 03:26:07.948 time. If everybody has an electric car, 03:26:07.960 --> 03:26:10.841 electric utilities of their house, it's kind of 03:26:10.866 --> 03:26:13.385 Armageddon. So we think that 03:26:13.397 --> 03:26:16.330 government should do a really good job of creating 03:26:16.342 --> 03:26:19.039 an atmosphere and a marketplace where the best 03:26:19.051 --> 03:26:21.587 technology, the lowest carbon technologies. 03:26:21.599 --> 03:26:24.120 Let the carbon market be the winner in this 03:26:24.132 --> 03:26:26.895 whole process and get out of the way. And don't 03:26:26.907 --> 03:26:29.146 pick winners and losers because anytime 03:26:29.158 --> 03:26:32.216 government's done that in the past, they picked the 03:26:32.228 --> 03:26:34.978 wrong one, not picking on government. It's just 03:26:34.990 --> 03:26:37.637 let the marketplace take care of it, which is 03:26:37.649 --> 03:26:40.232 sort of the point of this whole side, right? 03:26:40.244 --> 03:26:43.070 There's a lot of great things out there. We need 03:26:43.082 --> 03:26:45.547 a balanced approach. Let's keep a balanced 03:26:45.559 --> 03:26:48.382 approach. And so for the folks at the CPUC, I've 03:26:48.394 --> 03:26:50.922 been to a few field hearings where it's all 03:26:50.934 --> 03:26:53.705 gonna be electrification. There's nothing wrong 03:26:53.717 --> 03:26:56.294 with that. But biofuels, other things have a 03:26:56.306 --> 03:26:58.952 critical role in here because we remember the 03:26:58.964 --> 03:27:01.719 renewable natural gas that we're creating has a 03:27:01.731 --> 03:27:04.556 lower CI than a Tesla. So and we're also working 03:27:04.568 --> 03:27:07.320 with a large automobile manufacturer to provide 03:27:07.332 --> 03:27:09.693 renewable natural gas as a feedstock for 03:27:09.705 --> 03:27:12.406 fuel cell technology. So there's just, there's 03:27:12.418 --> 03:27:14.900 a real matrix, a nice way for all of us to 03:27:14.912 --> 03:27:17.605 contribute to this and for the state to really 03:27:17.617 --> 03:27:20.323 level playing field, create a great atmosphere 03:27:20.335 --> 03:27:23.092 out there. I was around when the LCLFS started, 03:27:23.104 --> 03:27:25.642 and there was a lot of people who said this 03:27:25.654 --> 03:27:28.408 was not gonna work. Every single renewable fuel 03:27:28.420 --> 03:27:31.128 provider in the United States wants to sell in 03:27:31.140 --> 03:27:33.611 one place and one place only. The State of 03:27:33.623 --> 03:27:36.511 California. All the ethanol plants in the Midwest 03:27:36.537 --> 03:27:39.436 ship their ethanol to California, 03:27:39.448 --> 03:27:42.181 all the pipeline deals with renewable natural 03:27:42.193 --> 03:27:44.741 gas are shipping it to California. There's 03:27:44.753 --> 03:27:47.373 reason for that. It has become, because the 03:27:47.385 --> 03:27:50.347 carbon market closed at $208 yesterday. So that's 03:27:50.359 --> 03:27:52.916 that's a great endorsement of the policies 03:27:52.928 --> 03:27:55.599 here, so let's keep it up. So we'll quickly, 03:27:55.611 --> 03:27:57.935 Darryl talked about a similar project. 03:27:57.947 --> 03:28:00.848 We are near Turlock between Modesto and Turlock. 03:28:00.860 --> 03:28:03.297 Actually, we're in Series. Right now, we 03:28:03.309 --> 03:28:06.037 have about 20 dairies that are signed up. Our 03:28:06.049 --> 03:28:08.789 first cluster is gonna be 30. As I mentioned, 03:28:08.801 --> 03:28:11.527 we have about a 35 mile private pipeline that 03:28:11.539 --> 03:28:14.097 we're putting in. Unlike some of the other 03:28:14.109 --> 03:28:16.900 projects, we're actually removed, removing the 03:28:16.912 --> 03:28:19.477 H2S at the dairy site. We felt like it was 03:28:19.489 --> 03:28:22.270 a safer way to go. And we're also pressurising 03:28:22.282 --> 03:28:25.015 our pipeline, taking our cue from our friends 03:28:25.027 --> 03:28:27.517 of PG&E and talking to other folks in the 03:28:27.529 --> 03:28:30.268 industry. It was a pretty good consensus that 03:28:30.280 --> 03:28:33.362 transporting hydrogen sulfide through a pressurized 03:28:33.374 --> 03:28:35.694 pipeline is not the thing that's gonna 03:28:35.706 --> 03:28:38.377 make our insurance agent very happy. So, but 03:28:38.389 --> 03:28:40.953 it makes sense in the bigger picture. It's 03:28:40.965 --> 03:28:43.628 a little bit more money for us to do it that 03:28:43.640 --> 03:28:46.137 way, but we feel like, the gas do we then 03:28:46.149 --> 03:28:48.937 deliver to the ethanol plant where we have our 03:28:48.949 --> 03:28:51.571 main cleanup hub will then be giving us the 03:28:51.583 --> 03:28:54.071 optionality of either putting it into the 03:28:54.083 --> 03:28:57.000 pipeline. We're gonna have a PG&E connect. We're 03:28:57.012 --> 03:28:59.744 gonna have a CNG station. And we'll also have 03:28:59.756 --> 03:29:02.202 the optionality of using that bio gas to 03:29:02.214 --> 03:29:05.052 replace carbon based natural gas at our ethanol 03:29:05.064 --> 03:29:07.617 plant. Reduce the C I of our ethanol fuel. 03:29:07.629 --> 03:29:10.176 So it gives us a lot of optionality there. 03:29:10.188 --> 03:29:12.984 This just shows you there are a lot of dairies 03:29:12.996 --> 03:29:15.718 in the Central Valley and this is just a very 03:29:15.730 --> 03:29:18.167 small portion of it. This is kind of the 03:29:18.179 --> 03:29:20.788 northern part of the valley. Mainly, Merced 03:29:20.800 --> 03:29:23.421 and Stanislaus County. I'm gonna skip these 03:29:23.433 --> 03:29:26.035 slides. You all know how digesters work. By 03:29:26.047 --> 03:29:28.780 this point, you've heard a lot about cow poop 03:29:28.792 --> 03:29:31.578 and so we'll sort of go past this. But the one 03:29:31.590 --> 03:29:34.210 thing that I would also encourage everybody 03:29:34.222 --> 03:29:36.529 in this room who's talked about various 03:29:36.541 --> 03:29:39.455 different types of technologies, we're having a 03:29:39.467 --> 03:29:41.899 massive capital infusion in the state of 03:29:41.911 --> 03:29:44.891 California. There's a huge economic impact. We're 03:29:44.903 --> 03:29:47.505 creating jobs all over the place. If you're 03:29:47.517 --> 03:29:50.427 building a project like we are, it's hard to get 03:29:50.439 --> 03:29:52.986 workers. That's a great thing we should be 03:29:52.998 --> 03:29:55.736 talking about that as well. But these are not 03:29:55.748 --> 03:29:58.174 only temporary jobs that are involved in 03:29:58.186 --> 03:30:01.278 construction, but we're also hiring permanent jobs. 03:30:01.290 --> 03:30:03.900 So the the economic impact of green energy. 03:30:03.912 --> 03:30:06.415 Again, it's something that I think we all 03:30:06.427 --> 03:30:09.089 get caught up in the details of our pathways 03:30:09.101 --> 03:30:11.596 and our C I scores, and I think we forget 03:30:11.608 --> 03:30:14.336 sometimes to talk about these things. But our 03:30:14.348 --> 03:30:17.266 project in the Central Valley is having a pretty 03:30:17.278 --> 03:30:19.884 significant, significant impact, along with 03:30:19.896 --> 03:30:22.811 Darryl Moss at Moss Energy and some of the other 03:30:22.823 --> 03:30:25.494 developers. And then we're all familiar with 03:30:25.506 --> 03:30:28.010 the environmental benefits. So just so it 03:30:28.035 --> 03:30:30.701 turns out that many of the many 03:30:30.713 --> 03:30:33.333 of the dairies that we're working with are in 03:30:33.345 --> 03:30:35.960 disadvantaged communities, and so that's also 03:30:35.972 --> 03:30:38.541 providing jobs for folks in areas that don't 03:30:38.553 --> 03:30:40.994 have access to jobs or job training. We're 03:30:41.006 --> 03:30:43.801 working with opportunities in Stanislas, too, to 03:30:43.813 --> 03:30:46.544 create a job training program to help folks who 03:30:46.556 --> 03:30:49.072 want jobs for the future, jobs in their own 03:30:49.084 --> 03:30:51.865 neighborhood, so that they don't have to commute 03:30:51.877 --> 03:30:54.557 to the Bay Area every day. And it's supporting 03:30:54.569 --> 03:30:57.242 agriculture. On the environmental side, one of 03:30:57.254 --> 03:31:00.054 the other things that we're talking about, every 03:31:00.066 --> 03:31:02.850 dairy we work with, we're improving their manure 03:31:02.862 --> 03:31:05.602 management practices and their water practices. 03:31:05.614 --> 03:31:08.462 So the whole package is not just about mitigating 03:31:08.474 --> 03:31:10.819 methane, which is a huge thing. But it's 03:31:10.831 --> 03:31:13.326 also looking at all of their other business 03:31:13.338 --> 03:31:16.188 practices and trying to help them improve. Talked 03:31:16.200 --> 03:31:18.758 about the mitigation. This just gives you an 03:31:18.770 --> 03:31:21.512 overhead view real quickly. This is the ethanol 03:31:21.524 --> 03:31:24.193 plant in Keys. We're bringing our pipeline in. 03:31:24.205 --> 03:31:26.830 We'll have a single fill CNG station and then 03:31:26.842 --> 03:31:29.289 connect with the PG&E Pipeline that exists 03:31:29.301 --> 03:31:32.045 already right in the back. And you saw pictures 03:31:32.057 --> 03:31:34.839 earlier, but various stages. This is the ethanol 03:31:34.851 --> 03:31:37.131 plant over here, and there's a finished 03:31:37.143 --> 03:31:39.589 digester and sort of what it looks like in 03:31:39.601 --> 03:31:42.687 construction. And then, finally, I'll just wrapped up 03:31:42.699 --> 03:31:45.484 with a couple of comments about what the earlier 03:31:45.496 --> 03:31:48.179 panel discussion. I think when it comes to the 03:31:48.191 --> 03:31:50.754 interconnection issue, I view this, as there 03:31:50.766 --> 03:31:53.398 should be a higher bar, and I will submit our 03:31:53.410 --> 03:31:56.245 comments, I know that's important. But my biggest 03:31:56.257 --> 03:31:58.934 concern about this whole reservation processes 03:31:58.946 --> 03:32:01.502 there will be developers who are going to go 03:32:01.514 --> 03:32:04.025 in and grab those spots and do nothing with 03:32:04.037 --> 03:32:06.704 them. Happens with other state grant programs. 03:32:06.716 --> 03:32:09.396 We've seen that, and so I think there ought to 03:32:09.408 --> 03:32:12.138 be a higher bar. I think we should probably put 03:32:12.150 --> 03:32:14.664 some level of completion of your project or 03:32:14.676 --> 03:32:17.399 financing that would require a certain level of 03:32:17.411 --> 03:32:20.146 demonstrating that those projects were going to 03:32:20.158 --> 03:32:22.830 go forward in a timely manner, and I would not 03:32:22.842 --> 03:32:25.526 put three years is not timely to me. Should be 03:32:25.538 --> 03:32:28.264 a year or two. Of course, the utilities have to 03:32:28.276 --> 03:32:30.957 perform better, too. I think Daryll touched on 03:32:30.969 --> 03:32:33.701 it earlier. It's too expensive and it takes too 03:32:33.713 --> 03:32:36.286 long for us to interconnect. Now that I know 03:32:36.298 --> 03:32:38.906 our experience with PG&E, great people. But I 03:32:38.918 --> 03:32:41.766 know that this is only, what three or four in the 03:32:41.778 --> 03:32:44.449 whole state that have happened from bio gas. I 03:32:44.461 --> 03:32:47.316 think there's only three or four interconnections 03:32:47.328 --> 03:32:50.167 that have happened. So the utilities are learning 03:32:50.179 --> 03:32:52.631 how to do this as well. I would say a year 03:32:52.643 --> 03:32:55.374 from now the system is gonna be slammed because 03:32:55.386 --> 03:32:57.844 there are a ton of projects that are gonna 03:32:57.856 --> 03:33:00.408 be coming on, so we have to figure out a way 03:33:00.420 --> 03:33:03.099 to work together in order to make this process 03:33:03.111 --> 03:33:05.898 more repeatable, faster, and cheaper. So I would 03:33:05.910 --> 03:33:08.423 agree with those points and then, as far as 03:33:08.435 --> 03:33:11.275 the CPUC, just continue to support these programs 03:33:11.287 --> 03:33:13.627 that help the developers bring this this 03:33:13.639 --> 03:33:16.314 renewable natural gas into the pipeline and to 03:33:16.326 --> 03:33:19.071 the citizens of the state. Thank you very much. 03:33:19.096 --> 03:33:25.533 Thank you very much. Yeah. Come on down. 03:33:25.558 --> 03:33:28.089 They won't validate your parking. If you 03:33:28.101 --> 03:33:30.371 get your car is still there. Sorry, San Francisco. 03:33:30.370 --> 03:33:34.340 Question. I saw that you were doing your own 03:33:34.352 --> 03:33:38.405 high pressure gathering line. If there's another biomass 03:33:38.417 --> 03:33:42.465 project and it meets the rules and specifications, would 03:33:42.477 --> 03:33:46.536 you allow them to interconnect into your gathering line? 03:33:46.561 --> 03:33:49.929 I certainly think we would entertain that. If 03:33:49.941 --> 03:33:53.265 somebody had in adjacent area that was developing a project, 03:33:53.290 --> 03:33:56.866 Correct. Maybe an alternate feedstock or the same feedstock? 03:33:56.891 --> 03:33:59.682 As long as it meets rule 21, 03:33:59.694 --> 03:34:02.242 which ultimately is where we have to be 03:34:02.254 --> 03:34:04.892 for a specification. I don't see. Yes, of 03:34:04.904 --> 03:34:07.681 course. We would definitely entertain that. 03:34:07.681 --> 03:34:09.271 Thanks. 03:34:09.296 --> 03:34:10.800 Okay. Thank you very much. 03:34:10.825 --> 03:34:15.547 Making more connections. All right. Final 03:34:15.559 --> 03:34:20.456 presentation, Keen, you and your team are up. If you'd like 03:34:20.468 --> 03:34:25.236 to be at the podium. Great. If the team was to come behind 03:34:25.248 --> 03:34:30.110 the desk here and you can all come up, whatever you prefer. 03:34:30.110 --> 03:34:35.476 Please come out. I did, if I look a bit tired, I 03:34:35.488 --> 03:34:41.054 am because I flew about 18 hours to come over to give this 03:34:41.066 --> 03:34:47.004 presentation. First of all, I like to thank, I mean, Jamie and 03:34:47.016 --> 03:34:53.061 the CPUC to give me this opportunity to present. And I think, I 03:34:53.073 --> 03:34:58.796 hope, by the, by the time I finish presentation, of an LADWP 03:34:58.808 --> 03:35:04.637 could be sold on our project. Anyway, I go straight into this 03:35:04.649 --> 03:35:10.660 presentation. What we are trying to do is actually transforming 03:35:10.672 --> 03:35:16.225 fossil fuels to renewable energy. It sounds pretty simple. 03:35:16.250 --> 03:35:20.209 Just let me know when you want 03:35:20.221 --> 03:35:23.944 to do it. It's not sure how to make it work. 03:35:23.969 --> 03:35:31.373 Oh, okay. I think hydrogen is very, very been misunderstood. Hydrogen 03:35:31.385 --> 03:35:34.701 does not, it's not found in natural 03:35:34.713 --> 03:35:38.801 environment as a gas, it exists only as a 03:35:38.813 --> 03:35:46.319 compound. So when we handle hydrogen, we have to produce the hydrogen package, 03:35:46.331 --> 03:35:50.506 contain, transport, and store the hydrogen. 03:35:50.518 --> 03:35:53.848 Currently, the matters to do it is 03:35:53.860 --> 03:36:01.244 basically either liquifiy it or put it in compressed gas. I think we might be 03:36:01.256 --> 03:36:04.562 able to change that. Our company is 03:36:04.574 --> 03:36:08.841 actually a technology company that actually 03:36:08.853 --> 03:36:16.148 the developed the first solid hydrogen carrier. Okay, and what we want to do 03:36:16.160 --> 03:36:23.656 is to supercharge the renewable energy. What we want to do is actually produce 03:36:23.681 --> 03:36:30.323 solid hydrogen in the form of sodium borohydrate, lithium 03:36:30.335 --> 03:36:37.795 borohydrate, aluminium, and we want to have the entire chain to move over 03:36:37.807 --> 03:36:44.959 to solid, so that we can ship them, store them at ambient temperature, 03:36:44.971 --> 03:36:52.033 without any pressure so that we can transport them and safely produce 03:36:52.045 --> 03:36:59.470 the hydrogen gas whenever you need. So hydrogen gas is actually using a ? 03:36:59.482 --> 03:37:06.316 ????? solution will be produced at the point of use. Transportation 03:37:06.328 --> 03:37:13.006 of hydrogen is now solid. Solid material to be transported. Stored 03:37:13.018 --> 03:37:20.208 without temperature control, without pressure. Now, the actual cause of 03:37:20.133 --> 03:37:23.892 hydrogen logistic is actually very 03:37:23.904 --> 03:37:27.412 different from what people think. First 03:37:27.424 --> 03:37:34.275 of all, to produce hydrogen is actually pretty costly. The cheapest way is to 03:37:34.287 --> 03:37:37.874 break natural gas or coal. But that will 03:37:37.886 --> 03:37:41.660 be a brown hydrogen and not green. So what 03:37:41.672 --> 03:37:45.353 I want to do is actually produce hydrogen 03:37:45.365 --> 03:37:48.793 with renewable energy. Which the price 03:37:48.805 --> 03:37:51.942 of the renewable energy has dropped, 03:37:51.954 --> 03:37:55.802 drastically from, I should I say, 38 cents 03:37:55.814 --> 03:37:59.657 down to two cents right now? Now, if we can 03:37:59.669 --> 03:38:03.173 do that, then we would be ever to store 03:38:03.185 --> 03:38:06.937 the hydrogen and transport the hydrogen as 03:38:06.949 --> 03:38:10.451 a solid material. Because when you look 03:38:10.463 --> 03:38:17.302 at liquid or gas hydrogen, you'll find that the production cost is very high. 03:38:17.427 --> 03:38:22.765 The storage cost is very, very high. Transportation 03:38:22.777 --> 03:38:27.504 is high, and the safety and containment cost is also 03:38:27.516 --> 03:38:32.771 high. The upfront K Pax is high, and the end user cause is 03:38:32.783 --> 03:38:37.872 also very, very high. Now, if you transferred that stage 03:38:37.884 --> 03:38:42.757 to a solid, it becomes, production costs is still very 03:38:42.769 --> 03:38:47.744 high. But storage, transportation, safety and upfront K 03:38:47.756 --> 03:38:52.546 pax becomes rather simple because you're dealing with 03:38:52.558 --> 03:38:57.716 solid and without pressure. And also without temperature. 03:39:01.511 --> 03:39:06.107 Now, once you can do that, suddenly the 03:39:06.119 --> 03:39:10.343 reach of renewable energy is not limited to 03:39:10.355 --> 03:39:14.380 wherever you can disappear from the grid. 03:39:14.392 --> 03:39:18.910 Hydrogen can be used for refueling station for 03:39:18.922 --> 03:39:23.329 mobility in trucks, bus, train. I think train 03:39:23.341 --> 03:39:27.760 and ship is going to be a huge market instead 03:39:27.772 --> 03:39:31.992 of just car. ???? leaves UAV. I started off 03:39:32.004 --> 03:39:36.525 this program because I was involved in the UAV 03:39:36.537 --> 03:39:40.846 project in Taiwan. It doesn't work, it's too 03:39:40.858 --> 03:39:45.276 heavy then. 10 years ago. Now emergency power 03:39:45.288 --> 03:39:49.891 can be produced and basically hydrogen produced 03:39:49.903 --> 03:39:54.230 on demand. Remote electrification, renewable 03:39:54.242 --> 03:39:58.555 energy can, we can use every ounce of wasted 03:39:58.567 --> 03:40:02.795 renewable energy and turn it into hydrogen, 03:40:02.807 --> 03:40:07.125 solid hydrogen. And it can be exported, just 03:40:07.137 --> 03:40:11.274 like oy, just like any hydrocarbon, it can 03:40:11.286 --> 03:40:15.589 be transported. There's no restriction. Now, 03:40:15.601 --> 03:40:20.011 there is a very big push in Asia on mixed gas 03:40:20.023 --> 03:40:24.140 which is HCNG. Now, I am just wondering if 03:40:24.152 --> 03:40:29.049 California is actually going towards HCNG, because 03:40:29.061 --> 03:40:33.462 by giving, by mixing 20% in volume, we have a 03:40:33.474 --> 03:40:37.695 clean gas. But that is really 3% in weight. 03:40:37.707 --> 03:40:41.923 The 20% in volume is actually equal into 3% 03:40:41.935 --> 03:40:46.258 of it. Safety. Storage and practically. What 03:40:46.270 --> 03:40:50.478 we have done is actually created a hydrogen 03:40:50.490 --> 03:40:55.190 generator that combine any NEBH4 with is a solid 03:40:55.202 --> 03:40:59.512 material, water, and a waste system, so that 03:40:59.524 --> 03:41:03.750 you can actually receive all the waste. The 03:41:03.762 --> 03:41:08.357 reactor actually will take a solid material and 03:41:08.369 --> 03:41:12.496 inject water and catalyst so that hydrogen 03:41:12.508 --> 03:41:16.533 can be produced. Put in a buffer tank and 03:41:16.545 --> 03:41:21.158 hydrogen can be supplied anytime that you want. 03:41:21.183 --> 03:41:26.069 This is actually a very simple contraption 03:41:26.081 --> 03:41:29.827 that can be produced by anybody in the 03:41:29.839 --> 03:41:33.962 world. Now hydrolysis, which is what we're 03:41:33.974 --> 03:41:38.591 using, is really an idea that has been used for 03:41:38.603 --> 03:41:42.724 more than 100 years. Instead, off breaking 03:41:42.736 --> 03:41:47.445 hydrogen free from water, which is electrolysis, 03:41:47.457 --> 03:41:52.065 we are actually breaking water and the hydrogen 03:41:52.077 --> 03:41:56.023 in the compound, freed by hydrolysis, is 03:41:56.035 --> 03:42:00.731 completely self-generating. I technically do not 03:42:00.743 --> 03:42:05.066 need to put energy when I split the hydrogen 03:42:05.078 --> 03:42:09.107 from chemical and water. Now, the overall 03:42:09.119 --> 03:42:13.545 system of, it's very high because the storage 03:42:13.557 --> 03:42:17.871 of NEBH4 which is solid, you can store it in 03:42:17.883 --> 03:42:21.921 normal temperature, without pressure, not 03:42:21.933 --> 03:42:26.446 flammable. The logistics can be handled by any 03:42:26.458 --> 03:42:30.694 assisting transportation infrastructure. No 03:42:30.706 --> 03:42:35.394 cost because the energy could be stored. No need 03:42:35.406 --> 03:42:39.627 for special equipment, only what they prove 03:42:39.639 --> 03:42:43.662 it. NEBH4 can be used as any ????? at any 03:42:43.674 --> 03:42:47.996 location. We place the reactor regardless of 03:42:48.008 --> 03:42:52.316 whether there is electricity or not. Now the 03:42:52.328 --> 03:42:56.840 generation of the electricity by the renewable 03:42:56.852 --> 03:43:01.070 no longer is restricted by location. We put 03:43:01.082 --> 03:43:05.311 the windmill at the point where the wind is 03:43:05.323 --> 03:43:09.918 strongest, just like we drilling for oil in the 03:43:09.930 --> 03:43:14.440 furthest pit. Maximize the production. Safety. 03:43:14.452 --> 03:43:18.764 Really, there is very little you can do with 03:43:18.776 --> 03:43:23.101 hydrogen. The only way that you can actually 03:43:23.113 --> 03:43:27.421 mitigate safety is to minimize of volume and 03:43:27.433 --> 03:43:31.466 pressure of hydrogen that you're storing. 03:43:31.478 --> 03:43:35.601 Because if you can do that, you reduce the 03:43:35.613 --> 03:43:40.325 chance of an accident. The two kinds of hydrogen 03:43:40.350 --> 03:43:45.082 storage is very, I would say, ????? not 03:43:45.094 --> 03:43:49.344 understood. The reactor that we create can 03:43:49.356 --> 03:43:53.996 be mount or moved into any location. Okay? Low 03:43:54.008 --> 03:43:58.165 cost cecause the cost of the neighborhood 03:43:58.177 --> 03:44:02.516 will not be, should I say ????? discounted. 03:44:02.528 --> 03:44:06.979 Once you put the hydrogen in the solid form, 03:44:06.991 --> 03:44:11.238 long term storage is very, very simple and 03:44:11.250 --> 03:44:15.310 cheap. Large quantity of fuel stores can 03:44:15.322 --> 03:44:19.463 be storewith very, very little additional 03:44:19.475 --> 03:44:24.220 expenses. Now this is the logistics of the last 03:44:24.232 --> 03:44:28.478 mile solution. Safety on gas and liquid is 03:44:28.490 --> 03:44:32.846 going to be difficult. But when once you're 03:44:32.858 --> 03:44:37.001 moving over to a solid, it will be pretty 03:44:37.013 --> 03:44:41.564 much manageable. Upfront K pAx is going to be 03:44:41.576 --> 03:44:46.220 high. But when you are using a solid hydrogen, 03:44:46.232 --> 03:44:50.096 the offering K PAX will be much lower. 03:44:50.121 --> 03:44:52.997 Flexibility. Well, since it's a solid 03:44:53.009 --> 03:44:56.023 material, you can technically move it any place 03:44:56.035 --> 03:44:59.169 that you want. Operation cost is going to be low. 03:44:59.181 --> 03:45:02.075 The reason is because it is a solid material. 03:45:13.700 --> 03:45:19.564 The reason why I came back to California, actually, I'm from Malaysia. 03:45:19.576 --> 03:45:24.932 I mean, some 40 years ago, I actually went back to Asia to develop this 03:45:24.957 --> 03:45:29.217 project. Now the reason why I came back 03:45:29.229 --> 03:45:33.501 to California, actually, California have done a 03:45:33.513 --> 03:45:38.224 great job. This is probably the most robust hydrogen 03:45:38.236 --> 03:45:42.336 economy in the book. A lot of people probably 03:45:42.348 --> 03:45:46.057 never know it because we have the largest 03:45:46.069 --> 03:45:50.676 infrastructure right now in the world for renewable 03:45:50.688 --> 03:45:55.468 hydrogen. We also have the loan was cost in renewable 03:45:55.480 --> 03:45:59.650 energy. Generated of course, right now, mostly 03:45:59.675 --> 03:46:04.736 cartel. We have the ability to go right into an 03:46:04.748 --> 03:46:10.183 HCNG mixed gas, which I think a lots of people is beginning 03:46:10.195 --> 03:46:15.171 to understand. As China and India is moving forward on 03:46:15.183 --> 03:46:20.170 it, we actually can expand the covering infrastructure 03:46:20.182 --> 03:46:25.246 that we're providing for hydrogen. Hydrogen station can 03:46:25.258 --> 03:46:29.971 be put into any gas station. Our unit that released 03:46:29.983 --> 03:46:35.052 the hydrogen is actually very, very small, much smaller 03:46:35.064 --> 03:46:39.420 than what other people are thinking. Now we can 03:46:39.432 --> 03:46:44.222 supplement the assisting hydrogen infrastructure and 03:46:44.234 --> 03:46:49.307 fasttrack California right into the adoptation of green 03:46:49.319 --> 03:46:54.569 energy. We can also be a net hydrogen exportor because we 03:46:54.581 --> 03:46:59.570 can export the hydrogen that we capture from renewable 03:46:59.582 --> 03:47:04.919 and technically exported to any states that we went within 03:47:04.931 --> 03:47:09.918 the United States. Go actually beyond that, California 03:47:09.930 --> 03:47:14.729 can actually export a solid ecosystem and fast track 03:47:14.741 --> 03:47:19.279 the growth of the whole world's renewable energy. 03:47:27.604 --> 03:47:33.802 This is really what we are. We have, actually, there's 03:47:33.814 --> 03:47:40.123 not very, very few people knows about our development until the 03:47:40.135 --> 03:47:46.340 22nd off last month. Because that was the day that we actually 03:47:46.352 --> 03:47:52.667 have a program from PCT for our worldwide patterns. So we are a 03:47:52.679 --> 03:47:58.954 now found patterns throughout China, United States, California, 03:47:58.966 --> 03:48:05.056 the whole, I mean, South America, Japan, Russia and Korea. We 03:48:05.068 --> 03:48:11.349 have a very small company. We need help. We need help to spread 03:48:11.361 --> 03:48:17.556 the fact that solid hydrogen can be done. Thank you very much. 03:48:18.581 --> 03:48:23.064 Thank you, Keen. All right, 03:48:23.076 --> 03:48:27.570 Tom, you jumped up for questions. Questions. 03:48:27.570 --> 03:48:29.966 that's, you have an exothermic 03:48:29.978 --> 03:48:32.611 reaction when you re-release for the hydrogen. 03:48:32.623 --> 03:48:35.362 What is your solvent or what? What are you doing 03:48:35.374 --> 03:48:37.900 to release the hydrogen back in the reactor? 03:48:37.900 --> 03:48:41.134 Well, actually, I've been ????? to reduce 03:48:41.159 --> 03:48:43.884 Do you use like alcohol or? 03:48:43.909 --> 03:48:47.787 In fact, I mean, I simply use heat and a catalyst 03:48:47.812 --> 03:48:51.346 but that's gonna be an exothermic reaction. So 03:48:51.358 --> 03:48:54.783 how do you manage that heat generation with the hydrogen? 03:48:54.808 --> 03:48:58.661 We actually have been process the release 03:48:58.673 --> 03:49:02.461 of hydrogen by measuring the amount of water and 03:49:02.473 --> 03:49:06.294 catalyst that is required, so that I can actually 03:49:06.306 --> 03:49:10.293 extend the duration of the heat. I manage the heat. 03:49:10.318 --> 03:49:15.558 Okay, so you keep, you keep the thermal load and heat 03:49:15.570 --> 03:49:20.345 below what would eventually could cause a fire or explosion. 03:49:20.370 --> 03:49:27.400 No, in fact, I mean, we keep it below 90 degrees, because 03:49:27.412 --> 03:49:33.707 that is really the optimum efficiency for production. Yeah. 03:49:33.732 --> 03:49:35.310 Thank you. 03:49:35.335 --> 03:49:39.573 Thank you. Alright. This is it. 03:49:39.585 --> 03:49:43.393 Final rounds of questions. Thank you, Keen. 03:49:43.418 --> 03:49:45.042 Thank you very much. 03:49:45.068 --> 03:49:48.665 Thank you very much. Okay. So 03:49:48.677 --> 03:49:52.521 according to the agenda, which we are absolutely 03:49:52.533 --> 03:49:56.058 on schedule for, we have made it through the 03:49:56.070 --> 03:49:59.213 question and answer, the presentations, 03:49:59.225 --> 03:50:02.432 and the question and answers. There is a 03:50:02.444 --> 03:50:06.056 section on the agenda for Q&A on other topics 03:50:06.068 --> 03:50:09.674 that we haven't touched on yet, so to review, 03:50:09.686 --> 03:50:12.910 so far, we have touched on the renewable 03:50:12.922 --> 03:50:16.520 natural gas interconnection tariff, the draft 03:50:16.532 --> 03:50:19.828 that was submitted by the Joint Utilities 03:50:19.840 --> 03:50:23.209 on November 1st. We have touched on all of 03:50:23.221 --> 03:50:26.680 the 7 presentations that we have heard this 03:50:26.692 --> 03:50:30.215 afternoon. Yes, the slides will be available 03:50:30.227 --> 03:50:33.683 on the Web site in the next couple of days. 03:50:33.695 --> 03:50:37.538 They only uploaded at the CPUC Renewable Natural 03:50:37.550 --> 03:50:41.013 Gas website. So anybody who wants them just 03:50:41.025 --> 03:50:44.460 give me, like, at least 24 hours so I could 03:50:44.472 --> 03:50:47.920 get them to our IT to get them uploaded. We 03:50:47.932 --> 03:50:51.530 have touched on the next procedural steps for 03:50:51.542 --> 03:50:55.153 comments and reply comments both on the draft 03:50:55.165 --> 03:50:58.682 renewable gas interconnection tariff and the 03:50:58.694 --> 03:51:02.223 proposed decision on the reservation system. 03:51:02.235 --> 03:51:05.601 Before we conclude, I do want to ask Jamie 03:51:05.613 --> 03:51:08.912 one question, which is for your renewable 03:51:08.924 --> 03:51:12.204 natural gas interconnection tariff on the 03:51:12.216 --> 03:51:15.822 page 31, the last section, there's some error 03:51:15.834 --> 03:51:19.277 reference source not found. Not a big deal. 03:51:19.289 --> 03:51:22.823 It probably doesn't mean anything, but I was 03:51:22.835 --> 03:51:26.353 just curious. Is there anything missing from 03:51:26.365 --> 03:51:29.974 the number four and five that we, or four and 03:51:29.986 --> 03:51:33.590 six in Section N, dispute resolution, that we 03:51:33.602 --> 03:51:36.981 should know about? Please. The microphone. 03:51:41.206 --> 03:51:44.849 I believe what that is was we were referencing 03:51:44.861 --> 03:51:47.953 a particular section, and there was, like, a hyperlink 03:51:47.965 --> 03:51:51.192 in there when it got converted to pdf, it just created an 03:51:51.204 --> 03:51:54.611 error. I didn't even notice that until you just pointed out. 03:51:54.636 --> 03:51:58.842 Okay, so we're gonna go with no big deal. 03:51:58.854 --> 03:52:02.781 And if it is a big deal, maybe, in your comments, you 03:52:02.793 --> 03:52:06.786 could just note with that what you mean for that to be 03:52:06.798 --> 03:52:10.804 so that we all have that information, if you please. I 03:52:10.816 --> 03:52:14.861 think we went through all of the questions that came up 03:52:14.873 --> 03:52:18.712 during both sections. Are there additional questions 03:52:18.724 --> 03:52:22.630 that I may or may not be able to answer at this time, 03:52:22.642 --> 03:52:26.923 either on what we've touched on so far or any other topic? 03:52:26.948 --> 03:52:29.862 Oh, that was easy. So we've 03:52:29.874 --> 03:52:32.334 heard a lot of great comments today. 03:52:32.346 --> 03:52:35.067 Workshop comments spoken out loud at the 03:52:35.079 --> 03:52:38.211 Commission are great to socialize information, 03:52:38.223 --> 03:52:41.006 get people talking. In order to influence 03:52:41.018 --> 03:52:43.148 Commission proceeding, we are a 03:52:43.160 --> 03:52:45.950 quasi-legislative agency, which means you 03:52:45.962 --> 03:52:48.631 have to write them down and submit them 03:52:48.643 --> 03:52:53.698 as comments into the proceeding. The people who get to submit comments into 03:52:53.710 --> 03:52:56.565 proceeding are called parties. Parties are 03:52:56.577 --> 03:52:59.311 interested persons or entities that have 03:52:59.323 --> 03:53:04.451 special obligations and rights at the Commission. If you have yet to file to 03:53:04.463 --> 03:53:06.988 become a party and you want to provide 03:53:07.000 --> 03:53:10.004 comments, please file to become a party and 03:53:10.016 --> 03:53:15.328 provide comments. If you are already a party, we appreciate you taking the time 03:53:15.340 --> 03:53:18.257 to write down your comments and then filing 03:53:18.269 --> 03:53:20.798 them. And if you have questions about 03:53:20.810 --> 03:53:23.590 how to do either of those things, my name 03:53:23.602 --> 03:53:26.128 is Jaime Ormand and my information is 03:53:26.140 --> 03:53:28.994 on the CPUC Renewable Natural Gas website. 03:53:29.006 --> 03:53:31.471 All you gotta do is go to Google and 03:53:31.483 --> 03:53:34.261 Google CPUC Renewable Natural Gas and all 03:53:34.273 --> 03:53:36.732 my information is there, and since I 03:53:36.744 --> 03:53:39.329 haven't seen anyone get up to look like 03:53:39.341 --> 03:53:42.271 they want to ask more questions, I am just 03:53:42.283 --> 03:53:45.198 going to say thank you very much for coming 03:53:45.210 --> 03:53:47.738 and attending this afternoon. We look 03:53:47.750 --> 03:53:52.950 forward to working with you and we'll see you next time. Thank you very much.