All right. Good morning
I'm gonna call to order. I'm gonna call to order docket
52321. This is the ERCOT Subchapter M case
M is in money. Lots of money. This a pre hearing
conference being held on August 23, 2021. My name
is Hunter Burkholder. Let me begin by taking appearances,
and let's start with ERCOT please. Good morning. Your
honor. Ron Moss and Elliott Clark on behalf of ERCOT. And
I'll just, rather than, I'll just call folks out.
TAIEC. Good morning your honor, Katie Coleman, Michael
Macmillan and John Harvard for TAEIC
Just Energy and associated companies. Good morning
your honor. Kathy Webking and Stephanie Cover for Just
Energy.
NRG
Good morning. Your honor. Andrea Stover, Christina Rollins
Patrick Leahy and London Low for NRG. City of Garland.
D. C. Energy
City of Austin. Good morning your honor. Thomas Mercado on behalf of
City of Austin.
Coalition of Competitive Reps. Good morning. Your honor
(indistinct) Coalition of Competitive Reps.
L. C. R. A. Lee Sebastian and Emily Jolly for LCRA
Aggregate Renewables.
Excelon. Good morning. Your honor. Megan Brookes
for Excelon.
Shell.
I don't know how you say it, Jexa? Gexa Energy?
Good morning. I'm Tracey Davis here on behalf of Gexa.
And is it Gexa? Okay, thank you.
Energy Trading Institute. City of Denton
Good morning. Your honor. (indistinct) from the city.
City of Georgetown. Your honor, (indistinct) Barnes.
City of Lubbock.
Also here for Garland. For who? Garland. Okay.
BP Energy.
E. D. F. Energy
CitiGroup. Your honor did you say EDF Energy Services?e
Yes sir. James Guy.
Citigroup. Texas Retail Energy?
Luminant. Good morning, your honor. Bill Moore and Melissa
Lorber, Mike Ryan and Chris Kirby for Luminant Energy
Tenaska Power Services and associated companies.
Good morning, your honor. Barton Ford and Tim Miller for Tenaska.
Advanced Power Alliance
Golden Spread. Yes, your honor. Good morning, Todd Kimbrough.
Here for Goldenspread.
Texpo Power. Good morning your honor, James Guy on behalf of
Texpo Power.
Saracen Energy West?
Tara Foreign Power Operating. Carrie Collier Brown
and Matt Art for Tera Foreign.
Calpine. Morning, Chris Reader and Miguel Suazo
from Blackwell for Calpine and also Diana Woodman Hammett
with Calpine (indistinct). Rayburn country? Good morning
your honor. Emma Hand, Justin Mirrorball and Grace Dixon
for Raburn Country Electrical Cooperative. East Texas Electric
Co op. Good morning, your honor. Jacob Lawler for East Texas
Electric Cooperative. OPA.
Office of Public Utility Council?
Ennel Trading North America.
Gary Coleman Brown and Matt Heart for Ennel.
NG Resources and NG Energy Marketing. Good
morning, your honor. Stephen Mack for NG.
South Texas Electric co op. Good morning your
honor, Jennifer Littlefield and Carlos Carrasco on
behalf of South Texas Electric. Morgan Stanley.
Vital Inc.
RWE Renewables America? Texas Treasury Safekeeping Trust?
Good morning your honor. Whitney Blanton and
Mike Rice on behalf of Texas Treasury.
AEP Energy partners.
Staff. Good morning your honor. Eleanor D. Ambrosio
and Floyd Walker for Commission staff. And have I missed
anybody who's here and who I didn't call on?
All right, thank you. All Good morning. Welcome. Thanks
for being here bright and early.
I want to talk about admission of exhibits. I don't
think I have any objections. I'm just gonna go through
each set of exhibits. And the only ones that I think
that the deadline for objecting has not passed are ERCOT
rebuttal exhibits 8, 9, and 10. So, let's
start with the ERCOT exhibit. Is there any objection
to ERCOT exhibits 1 through 10?
They're all admitted.
And I'm assuming you were all offering him. I'm treating
it as if you were all offering them. NRG Energy
Yes, sir. Jsut want to clarify that there is an
objection to the (indistinct) the testimony.
Okay, that's in 522. And we'll get to that on the
prehearing for five, I'm aware of that and we'll get
to that. All right. So, if I didn't say at all of
ERCOTs exhibits one through 10 are admitted. NRG
Energy inc has offered NRG exhibits 1 and 2. Is
there any objection to either of those exhibits?
They're all admitted.
City of Austin has offered 1 and 2. Any objection
to either of those? They're all admitted
Calpine Corporation has offered one through 8? Any objections?
Your honor, not objecting to my own exhibits. But
I do want to point out that our exhibit seven and 8
are also duplicative of the NRG exhibits. So you don't
need to clutter the record with duplicated exhibits, I'm happy to
not submit. That was seven and eight. Yes, sir.
Thank you. I have noticed that on some others, so I encourage
everybody to do the same thing you've just done, that's
helpful, thanks. We're striking seven and 8 from
Calpine and then so we just have Calpine exhibits one
through six. Any objection? They're admitted?
Rayburn Country has one exhibit, testimony of Julie
Carey. Any objection? It's admitted.
Commission staff has three exhibits. Is there
any objection to any of them? They are all admitted.
Have I missed anybody's exhibits in 52321?
All right, that takes care of that. Well, I don't think
there's any pending motions. Have I missed anything
there? Anybody have any pending motion?
Okay. I don't know if this realistic or not. But
is it possible that we could reach
an agreement on waving cross on any witnesses. And
so what I'm gonna do is just if you think you wish
to cross examine the witnesses, just raise your
hand. That's fine. I'm just trying to identify if there's
any witnesses we can release, and don't need to
call at the hearing on the merits, I'm assuming probably
not for ERCOT, but fingers crossed. Let's see.
Do folks want to enter a cross examine Mr Ogleman?
Just raise your hand if so. Okay, fair enough. Atkins. Raise
your hand if anybody wants to...? Wow. All right. So are
we free to cut Mr. Atkins loose and we've admitted
his testimony and there's no need for him to appear
on the hearing on the merits?
Yes, your honor. I'm just going to point out the obvious
is that he'll need to be here for 52322.
We have just called 21, and that's what we're
talking about right now. So, as to 52321, Mr Atkins
is done. And need not appear unless you feel
the need to call in for rebuttal. But we will not
present him. You need not swear him in. You need not
have him stand by his direct testimony. It's admitted.
The only question your honor is do we know whether
the Commissioners will have questions of him?
Well, keep him handy. Sean Taylor. Okay, fair enough.
NRG witness Bill Barnes.
Same deal. We will not plan on calling him for
cross examination unless the Commissioners may have
a question for him.
Okay.
City of Austin. No witnesses. Calpine, Steve Schlemmer.
Same deal. No need to call him unless the Commissioners
have questions for him.
Julie Carey for Raburn Country.
We may have a shorter hearing than I thought we were
going to have. Same deal. No need to hear from
her unless the Commissioners want to hear from her.
And then Darrell Tietjen for staff.
All right. Same deal. Have I missed any witnesses?
No witnesses that I'm aware of your honor. But I do
have, Sean Walsh for ERCOT. I do have one issue
that I wanted to present for your consideration. We
have Mr Ogleman and Mr Taylor and I know that there
I guess there's a little, a few questions for them
and maybe for the Commissioners, there's no real easy
demarcation between where one of their testimony ends
and the other begins, the Treasury versus the the settlement.
If you wish for them to appear as a panel, we're happy
for them to do so they can field questions and punt
questions to each other. If you don't wish to that,
that's okay too. But I think it might be more helpful
for the Commissioners if they were able to hear them
at the same time rather than having them come up one
at a time.
Anybody want, does anybody have a strong feeling?
I'm happy to do that. Pronounce Mr.
Ogleman. It's Mr. Ogleman.
It's my understanding, I probably wrong too, but yes.
And Mr Taylor.
So I'm receptive to that. If I forget, don't be
shy about reminding me. Thank you your honor.
All right. So are all the witnesses here in the
room right now? Ours are. Okay. I think I'm just
gonna swear in. I think I'll just swear in everybody
including those folks who cross has been waived so
that if the Commissioners want to talk to them, they'll
be, we'll be able to do that properly. So, Mr Ogleman.
I'm just going to ask you each to stand up as I
call your name. Thank you. Okay, you know better than anybody.
How do you pronounce your name? Okay, thank
you. Atkins. Good morning. Thank you. Mr Taylor. Morning.
Morning.
And oh, I missed Mr Reisig before.
Anybody wish to cross examine Mr Reisig.
All right, well, you're sort of kind of off the hook
Mr Reisig, but I'm gonna ask you to go ahead and stand
up anyway, I'll swear you in case the Commissioners
need to hear from you. Mr Barnes for NRG. Good morning.
Mr Schlemmer. Good morning.
Ms. Carey.
Good morning. Mr Tietjen. Good morning.
Raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear and
affirm that the testimony you've given in this proceeding
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth. I do. Thank you all, you may be seated.
Let's see you have been given the order of cross
by ERCOT. Thanks for putting that together, Mr Moss.
So you'll know which order will go in when that time
comes. Time allotments. You know, we're really crunched
on both of these cases. Although we may be less crunched
on this particular case. I don't know. I don't generally
like doing time allotments but I think it's unavoidable.
So here's what I have come up with. Ercot 2 1⁄2 hours.
TIEC 15 minutes. OPUC, 30 minutes. Staff, 40 minutes.
E-Tech, 10 minutes. EDF, five minutes. Austin Energy,
five minutes. Golden Spread, 10, TexBo, five. NL
and Terraform, 10. South Texas, 10. L. C. R. A., 20. Tenaska
15. Calpine, 30. Nrg, 30. Excelon, 15. Luminant, 20. Rayburn
Country, 45. And if anybody else has anything to say,
they get, that's everybody's submitted time allotment,
everybody else is five minutes. Yes ma'am. Your honor
for Raburn country. After reviewing the rebuttal
testimony that came in Friday, we do not need 45 minutes.
And in light of the waiver of cross on Ms. Carey.
I would only reserve maybe five for redirect if the Commissioners
have any questions? Music to my ears. Thank you. Okay
so we'll give you 10.
All right. In 52321 is anything else we need to talk
about? Your honor, Ron Moss for ERCOT. The only other
thing was that you had asked us, the applicants which
is ERCOT, to put together the information about who
is entitled to review confidential and highly sensitive
protecting information. Let me stop you. Is my
memory...? I don't think there is any confidential information
in this case. Well, there is not as of this time. If
someone tried to offer it and cross then it might
be relevant at that time. As you say, we don't think
there is any at this time. If anyone has any, then
we need not go through this right now. Does
anybody have any?
That's solves that. Solves that problem. Thank you
All right. Anything else when you talk about in this
case 21?
We are adjourned. Thank you very much. Give me just
a minute. We'll start the second one.
(indistinct chatter)
Okay. Good morning again I'll call to order docket
52322. This is the ERCOT case involving
Subchapter N as in Nancy. This pre hearing conference is
being held August 23, 2021. And again I'm Hunter
Burkholder. As we did before with the other case, I'll
take appearances and I'll start with ERCOT, please.
Ron Moss and Elliott Clark on behalf of ERCOT. TIEC. Good morning, your honot.
Katie Coleman, Michael Macmillan and John Hubbard
for TIEC. Just Energy and Associated companies. Good morning
your honor Kathy Webb and Stephanie Coburn on behalf of Just Energy.
NRG Energy. Morning your honor. Andrea Starbrook, Christina
Roland, Patrick Lake, and (indistinct)
City of Garland. Good morning, your honor,
Reed Barnes for the City of Garland.
And Mr Barnes, you are also?
City of Georgetown. City of Denton. And the city of Lubbock.
Thank you.
D. C. Energy Texas.
City of Austin. Good morning, your honor.
Thomas Mercado, the city of Austin.
Coalition of Competitive Retail, the Competitive
Reps. Good morning your honor. Miguel (indistinct) for
the Coalition of Competitive Reps. Luminan. Good morning
your honor. Bill Moore, Melissa Lorber, Chris Kirby,
and Mike Rife for Lumina.t We're also appearing for
the Texas Load Serving Entities.
LCRA? Good morning your honor. Emily Jolly
and Lee Sebastian for LCR. Excelon? Good
morning your honor. Megan Griffiths and Linda Font
for Excelon and Constellation New Energ. Avengrid?
Shell energy?
Gexa? Morning, your honor. Tracey Davis on behalf of
Gexa Energy LP. Energy trading Institute?
Bp Energy?
EDF Energy Services? Good morning again,
James Guy on behalf of EDF. City of Seguin.
Ap gas and Electric? Good morning your honor. Kathy
Webb King for AP Gas and Electric. Also for Southern Federal
Power.
Thank you Texas Retail Energy.
Tanaska and associated companies. Good morning your
honor, Martin Ford and Tim Mueller for Tanaska Power
Services Co, not to Tanaska generally, just Tanaska
Power Services Co. Thank you. Citigroup.
Golden Spread. Morning, your honor. Todd Kimbrough
here for Golden Spread.
TexBo power. Good morning, James guy on behalf of TexBo.
Calpine? First reader, in Valparaiso, with Josh Blackwell
for Calpine and also joined by Diana Woodman Hammett
and for tomorrow, Catherine Piper, both with CalPine.
Thank you. 174 Power Global Retail Texas. Morning, your honor.
Jennifer Littlefield and Carlos Carrasco on behalf
of 174 Power.
We are also here on behalf of South Texas Electric
Cooperative.
Thank you.
You said you said South Texas Electric co op, right?
Yes. Okay.
Rayburn Country Electric Co Op. Good morning your honor.
Emma Hand, Justin Miracle and Grace Dixon on behalf
of Rayburn Country Electric Cooperative. East Texas
Electric Co op? Good morning your honor. Jacob Roller
on behalf of East Texas Cooperative. Office of Public
Utility council?
NG Resources and NGEnergy marketing.
Good morning your honor. (indistinct)
Morgan Stanley Capital?
Vital Inc?
AEP Energy Partners?
Commission staff? Good morning your honor. Eleanor D
Ambrosio and Floyd Walker on behalf of Commission staff.
Have I missed anybody? I'm sorry I don't think I heard you.
Adam Goodman, Tucker Pirlo with the office of
Public Utility Counsel.
Thank you.
Anybody else?
Welcome to you all.
I have a pending motion from the TXULSEs
and Luminant. A very reasonable request. That
unfortunately we can't honor. The request was to see
if we could conditionally start at 9:00 tomorrow morning
if 21 finishes early. Could we start 22 early?
And after talking with Commission counsel.
This is an open meeting with Commission. It's posted
for a certain time and we can't change that time. So
unfortunately we can't, we're gonna start at 1:00 tomorrow.
We can't deviate from that so that motion
is denied. Understood. Thank you. Are there,
I know I have a discovery motion. I'll get to that
Evidentiary motion. I'll get to that when we
deal with the exhibits. Is there any other pending
motion? I don't think there is. But have I missed anything?
All right, let's go to the admission of exhibits. ERCOT
has offered one through nine. Is there any objection
to those? Any of those exhibits? They're all admitted.
TIEC Exhibit one. Any objection.?
Let's admit it.
Just Energy exhibits 1 through 4, 5A, 5B, annd 6 through
7. Any objections?
They're all admitted.
NRG energy INC. has offered NRG one and
2. Is there any objection? They're admitted
City of Austin 1. Any objection?
It's admitted.
Alright. TXU, LSEs, and Luminant Energy. I have
read the objections. I've read the responses. I've
read the case law. I've reac the SOAH orders. I've given
a great deal of thought and I'm going to sustain the
objections to the, all of the objections to the testimony
of Ms. Fraiser because the exhibits are only referenced
in the portions of Ms. Frasier's testimony that I'm
striking. I'm also striking the exhibits and I'm striking
the testimony of Mr, I guess it's Dr Spindler. I
think all that reads as a legal brief. It's not evidence,
it's the discussion of law. And so I'm sustaining the
objection, so with that Exhibit 3 is not admitted.
Beyond, well also I notice that exhibit 4 is
a duplicate of staff exhibit 4. I'm sorry, where is
Luminant Energy's counsel. I'm sorry. Are you okay
with withdrawing 4? I'm fine. Yeah, we can use 4, we'll
just use staff's 4. Okay, so we'll do that. We're
not gonna admit 4-- Your honor, may we talk about the Amanda
Fraser exhibit-- Sure --and Professor Spindler just
momentarily. Understand your ruling, we would like to
make an offer of proof. We can do that either, we can
do that today for Professor Spindler because that testimony
stands on its own. For Amanda Frazier's testimony since
your honor is striking pieces of it, we will need to
make an offer of proof for those pieces that are stricken.
We can do that tomorrow before the hearing starts so
that we have that exhibit in front of you. I can't
do that today because I don't have that exhibit prepared.
That's fine. I will, just do it. I recommend you work
with court reporter to do that at a time you find
convenient during the break. Thank you. So is
there any objection to the admission of Ms. Frazier's
testimony? Which is one as modified by my ruling?
It's admitted.
Any objection to 2? It's admitted. And so I'm sure
you're aware of it. You'll have to have ready
a modified exhibit that conforms my ruling by the beginning
of the hearing tomorrow. Yes, correct.
All right. Coalition of Competitive Reps, exhibit one.
Any objection?
It's admitted.
LCRA and LCRA WSC Energies exhibit
one. Any objection? It's admitted. Excelon Generation
Companies exhibits one and 2. Any objection? They're
admitted?
Calpine has offered one through eight. Your honor,
similarly to the last docket, our exhibits five through
8 are duplicative of the NRG exhibit two. So we would
withdraw our proferred exhibits fight through 8. Thank
you for that.
So, is there any objection to Calpine one through four?
They are admitted.
Rayburn Country 1 and 2. Any objection? They're admitted
Commission staff exhibits one through 5. Any objections?
They're all admitted. Have I missed anybody's evidence?
Okay, that takes care of that.
Let's do our same exercise on waiver of cross.
Do folks want to cross Mr Ogleman?
I see some hands. Yes. Atkins? Okay. Taylor?
Okay. That's it for them. Your honor, would
it be acceptable for you if we also brought Mr. Ogleman
and Mr Taylor up at the same time in this docket
as well? I think it's going to be the same issue. Maybe
not more. Okay, that's fine with me. And just help
me remember that when the time comes. Thank you. Make
a note of that.
That was Taylor, right? Ogleman and Taylor. Yes
your honor.
All right. Does anybody wish to cross examine the
TIECs witness, Charles Griffey?
All right..
Just Energies witness. Michael Carter?
Okay, thank you.
NRG Energy's witness Bill Barnes.
Thank you.
TXU LSE's and Luminet witness Miss Frasier.
Thank you. And witness Matthew Parker.
Thank you.
Popular. Alright. Coalition of Competitive Reps
Witness, Vanished Priestly. Thanks you. We're not having
the luck in this case.
Excelon Generation's witness, William Berg. Thank
you. And Laurie Simpson? Thank you. Your honor. We would
ask for the same request that ERCOT did, if we could put
our witnesses up on a panel if that's okay.
I'm sorry. And you're Excelon? That's correct. Okay
Berg and Simpson together. Anybody have a problem with
that?
We'll do that. Help me remember please.
For Calpine, Steve Schlammer. Thank you. For Raburn Country
Julie Carey.
We found one. So same deal as before. Unless
Commission has questions of Miss Carey is no need
to present her. David Braun also for Rayburn Country.
Thank you.
For Commission staff, Darryl Tietjen.
Wow. All right then. Same deal for for Mr. Tietjen.
He need only appear if the Commission has questions
for him.
oh and here in this case, we also have her staff Carrie
Bivens.
Rebecca Zerwas. Thank you. All right. Well that
wasn't as good an exercise as before.
Okay.
Let me go ahead and swear those witnessesin. Yes, ma'am? Your
honor. Just for clarity of record and process. ERCOT
has rebuttal, the same witnesses are on direct
and rebuttal. Are we planning to do direct first and
then come back to rebuttal at the end? We're
happy to put our witnesses up just once. If that's
acceptable to others. If you want to put them up twice,
we'll put them up twice.
You have a preference Ms. Webbking? I would go with the
will of the group. I'm just so worried about time that
I just as soon get it all done in one go. If
we can. And if that makes any anybody uncomfortable,
speak now or forever hold your peace. Okay?
We'll do that. We'll just put them up for all. We'll
put them up for direct and rebuttal at the same time. Yes,
your honor for the TXU LSEs, Bill Moore. In the interest
of time. If you want to put our two witnesses up together
as a panel, we're fine with that. I'm gonna stop taking
notes. I'm receptive to the idea. So as a party comea
forward. If they want to do it that way. I'm receptive
to it. Just raise it at that time. We'll handle it
that way. Now I'm gonna swear in all the witnesses
So if you'd stand up as I call your name please. Mr
Ogleman. Mr Atkins.
Mr Taylor
Mr Griffey. Your honor, Mr Griffey is coming in from
out of town, he won't be here until tomorrow. Have a seat
for now. Thank you. Do we have everybody here for this
case? We might not have everybody. If we don't.
Your honor, our witness supposedly is in the building according
to his last text but he's on his way up. So he's not
in the courtroom, but-- All right. I'm not gonna do it
piecemeal. So we'll just handle that tomorrow.
Time allotments. Here you go. ERCOT, 2.5 hours.
TIEC, 10 minutes. Staff, two hours. EDF, 10
minutes. Austin Energy, five minutes. Golden spread, 10
minutes. TexBo, 10. Stack, 10. LCRA, 10. Tamaska,
10. Calpine, 20. NRG, 20. Excelon, 20. Just Energy
30.
NG, 10. 174 Power, 10. Shell, 10. Coalition Competitive
Reps, 10. The TXEs and Luminant, 10. Cities
of Garland, Georgetown, Lubbock, 10.Rayburn Country,
30 Everybody else? 35 minutes.
You have the order of testimony for this case as well? Okay.
Is there anything else we need to talk about on 52?
Yes ma'am? Could you please clarify since we're
doing ERCOTs witnesses on direct and rebuttal if
we're taking them up first or we're taking them up
after cross examination? (indistinct) Just the order. I don't like
this mask thing. I can't hear you. Sorry. Could you
please clarify since we've got ERCOT going up on direct
and rebuttal, If we're taking them first as the applicant
or if we're putting them last, maybe Ron could speak to that.
Well, my intention was first. That's what we assumed
as well, your honor. Thank you. Your honor. One question.
Emily Jolly for LCRA. A number of parties in their requests
for time allotments indicated that they might reserve
or pass their time to other parties. Is your honor
open to that? Absolutely.
And I had a question about the order as well. We have
an order of cross examination. Is that likewise the
order in which witnesses will be called up assuming
that we deal with the ERCOT issue? Yes.
I like most of the parties that are planning to do
cross notice that I have a conflict Wednesday until
11. And I was going to ask you, we could not schedule
Mr Griffin just during that couple hours if possible.
From when to when? Just until 11 in the morning.
Oh you're fine because we're not gonna start till one
tomorrow. No, on Wednesday. On Wednesday. I'm sorry
So we could take him either tomorrow afternoon or after
11 on Wednesday. Sorry who are you representing? TIEC.
Right. just you'll have to remind me. I'm
happy to accommodate that. Thank you.
Anything else? Your honor. One other thing. Some of
the exhibits that were offered into evidence, admitted
into evidence have, at the time the discovery responses
were filed, those were either confidential or highly
sensitive protected material. At this time the information
has lost its protective information status under the
ERCOT protocols. And so we no longer consider
those to be confidential or highly protective. Therefore
from our perspective, it's not necessary for you to
address this issue that I raised earlier. If other
people intend to offer other documents today that are
highly sensitive or confidential, then I'll go through
this document, explain the issues that we have with it.
I believe we admitted one and only one exhibit that is identified
as highly sensitive. Exhibit 7 from Just Energy.
I may be wrong.
So who's counsel for Just Energy? Katherine
Webbking, your honor.
I am happy to circulate a public copy of that marked
as in public exhibit. That'd be great
Thanks for that. Thank you. Okay. Anything else? Thank
you. All were adjourned will start in about 15 minutes