WEBVTT
00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:10.210
All right.
00:00:10.210 --> 00:00:12.290
We will now reconvene this meeting
00:00:12.290 --> 00:00:14.393
of the Public Utility
Commission of Texas.
00:00:19.138 --> 00:00:20.930
We are gonna bring up again,
00:00:20.930 --> 00:00:25.930
docket 51023 for one more public speaker
00:00:27.200 --> 00:00:31.233
to present oral
testimony, three minutes,
00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:33.050
as with all the others.
00:00:33.050 --> 00:00:34.880
Three minutes, please, sir.
00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:38.649
Please state your name and
who you're with for the record.
00:00:38.649 --> 00:00:39.482
All right.
00:00:39.482 --> 00:00:40.920
My name is Raul Figueroa.
00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:44.380
Last name is spelled F-I-G-U-E-R-O-A
00:00:44.380 --> 00:00:49.130
and I live at 26670 Karsch
Road in High Country Ranch
00:00:49.130 --> 00:00:51.270
and I'm habitable structure umber 16
00:00:51.270 --> 00:00:52.823
on the CPS inventory map.
00:00:54.510 --> 00:00:56.267
I oppose recommended Route C2
00:00:56.267 --> 00:00:58.660
and the proposal for a decision.
00:00:58.660 --> 00:01:01.110
The PFD is flawed in my opinion,
00:01:01.110 --> 00:01:04.270
because it has errors regarding my home
00:01:04.270 --> 00:01:06.580
and the High Country Ranch neighborhood.
00:01:06.580 --> 00:01:09.100
As I stated in my exception, AOJ
00:01:09.100 --> 00:01:12.650
described me as a landowner,
close to High Country Ranch.
00:01:12.650 --> 00:01:15.700
This is incorrect as I am
a home and landowner
00:01:15.700 --> 00:01:18.350
inside High Country Ranch.
00:01:18.350 --> 00:01:21.390
The AOJ's also a state
in the PFD that Route C2
00:01:21.390 --> 00:01:24.800
does not cross a neighborhood.
00:01:24.800 --> 00:01:27.610
This is another incorrect
statement as Route C2
00:01:27.610 --> 00:01:30.810
segment 46B runs across
the High Country Ranch
00:01:30.810 --> 00:01:32.080
neighborhood.
00:01:32.080 --> 00:01:34.250
Route C2 segment 46B,
00:01:34.250 --> 00:01:37.533
which surrounds my home
and property on three sides.
00:01:38.410 --> 00:01:41.260
When my wife and I
purchased our home in 2014,
00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:43.390
one of the deciding factor was whether
00:01:43.390 --> 00:01:46.000
we could spend the
rest of our lives in it.
00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.500
And the answer was a definite yes.
00:01:47.500 --> 00:01:49.350
We consider it our forever home.
00:01:49.350 --> 00:01:51.653
It has a 20 mile view to the west.
00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:54.890
It has the 20 mile view to the east
00:01:54.890 --> 00:01:56.993
and a beautiful view to the west.
00:01:57.910 --> 00:02:00.070
I asked the Commission
to imagine stepping out
00:02:00.070 --> 00:02:02.460
of your home and seeing
a transmission line segment
00:02:02.460 --> 00:02:05.250
from three sides of it
ranging from 162 feet
00:02:05.250 --> 00:02:07.320
to approximately 300 feet.
00:02:07.320 --> 00:02:09.750
This is exactly what my
family and I would experience
00:02:09.750 --> 00:02:13.347
every single day should
recommend Route C2
00:02:13.347 --> 00:02:15.010
and the PFD get approved.
00:02:15.010 --> 00:02:17.240
My wife's stepdaughter
and I will not have
00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:19.240
one single enjoyable
area around our home
00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:21.670
without staring directly
at a transmission line.
00:02:21.670 --> 00:02:23.730
The only side of our
home that will not face
00:02:23.730 --> 00:02:24.963
a transmission line,
00:02:27.130 --> 00:02:29.490
sits a garage and a
fence line that separates
00:02:29.490 --> 00:02:31.393
my property and my neighbors.
00:02:32.390 --> 00:02:35.210
My wife suffers from a
condition called bipolar II,
00:02:35.210 --> 00:02:37.830
for which she must take
medication on daily basis.
00:02:37.830 --> 00:02:40.510
She keeps this health issue private,
00:02:40.510 --> 00:02:44.900
but authorized me to
go ahead and mention it
00:02:44.900 --> 00:02:48.093
in order to emphasize the
importance of a serene view,
00:02:49.750 --> 00:02:53.500
of a stress-free view and environment.
00:02:53.500 --> 00:02:54.510
You have one minute left, sir.
00:02:54.510 --> 00:02:55.343
Okay.
00:02:56.790 --> 00:02:59.900
The biggest symptom of
this condition is depression,
00:02:59.900 --> 00:03:01.860
which she must take medication for,
00:03:01.860 --> 00:03:04.570
but also the beautiful
view helps her as well.
00:03:04.570 --> 00:03:06.683
That's a natural remedy for it.
00:03:10.570 --> 00:03:12.900
Furthermore, the transmission
lines around my home
00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:15.000
on three sides, there's
a high probability
00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.300
that the transmission line
00:03:17.248 --> 00:03:19.130
that it will cost interference
with my cell phone
00:03:19.130 --> 00:03:21.080
reception and Wi-Fi.
00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.500
The CPS witness could not
guarantee or make assurances
00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:27.550
that my cell phone reception
would not be interrupted.
00:03:27.550 --> 00:03:30.290
I work from home on a full-time basis
00:03:31.365 --> 00:03:32.420
for an out-of-state
employer that provides
00:03:32.420 --> 00:03:35.000
software solutions to
department defense contractors.
00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:36.630
And it's vital that
my cell phone service
00:03:36.630 --> 00:03:37.973
and internet be reliable.
00:03:40.330 --> 00:03:42.320
I am baffled to the fact that
the administrative judges
00:03:42.320 --> 00:03:45.760
did not select Route
P instead of Route C2.
00:03:45.760 --> 00:03:48.860
I urge the Commission
to please consider Route P
00:03:48.860 --> 00:03:53.543
or any Northern route that
does not include segment 46B.
00:03:54.838 --> 00:03:57.193
And I'm also not opposed to Route Y.
00:03:58.330 --> 00:03:59.840
Thank you for being here
00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:01.730
and thank you for
accommodating the delay.
00:04:01.730 --> 00:04:02.700
Sorry, we didn't get you in on that.
00:04:02.700 --> 00:04:03.533
No, not a problem.
00:04:03.533 --> 00:04:04.400
Original sign-up.
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:05.650
Thank you again.
00:04:05.650 --> 00:04:06.483
I appreciate it.
00:04:08.920 --> 00:04:10.279
All right.
00:04:10.279 --> 00:04:14.650
That concludes business
on docket 51023 for the day.
00:04:14.650 --> 00:04:16.823
We'll table that for a
future open meeting.
00:04:18.840 --> 00:04:23.072
Next item I believable
will be docket 53116.
00:04:23.072 --> 00:04:23.905
You may state your name.
00:04:23.905 --> 00:04:24.845
Yes, sir.
00:04:24.845 --> 00:04:27.300
Item 14 is docket 52116.
00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:32.300
It is an agreed NOV between
SWEPCO and Commission staff
00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:36.010
regarding the reliability standards.
00:04:36.010 --> 00:04:39.447
A revised preliminary
order incorporating,
00:04:39.447 --> 00:04:41.550
I mean, proposed order
incorporating corrections
00:04:41.550 --> 00:04:44.063
was filed on September the 14th.
00:04:45.590 --> 00:04:46.423
All right.
00:04:47.890 --> 00:04:50.670
Open up for discussion
if anybody's got thoughts
00:04:50.670 --> 00:04:52.403
or comments or questions.
00:04:53.827 --> 00:04:55.570
Can I make a general statement?
00:04:55.570 --> 00:04:57.230
Absolutely.
00:04:57.230 --> 00:04:59.831
Not that I need your
permission, but thank you.
00:04:59.831 --> 00:05:02.081
(laughing)
00:05:03.150 --> 00:05:06.780
We've seen a lot of these settlements
00:05:06.780 --> 00:05:11.780
come across the dais here since
I've been on the Commission.
00:05:11.950 --> 00:05:14.240
I don't know if that's common or not,
00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.960
but they all deal with
(indistinct) and safety
00:05:16.960 --> 00:05:18.510
and they're all dealing with...
00:05:18.510 --> 00:05:20.700
So that's the frequency and the duration
00:05:20.700 --> 00:05:22.750
of outages and how
they affect consumers.
00:05:24.030 --> 00:05:28.317
I had a discussion with SWEPCO last week
00:05:29.900 --> 00:05:32.520
about a recent outage,
00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:35.610
where they had a 20 foot
tree growing in the right of way.
00:05:35.610 --> 00:05:40.203
And 6,000 to 7,000 residents lost power
00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:43.240
for a certain amount of time.
00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:45.280
They admitted that they made a mistake
00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:46.240
and how it happened.
00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:47.090
And I understand it.
00:05:47.090 --> 00:05:50.920
But again, what I go back
to is vegetation management
00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:52.703
is so key in these issues.
00:05:54.260 --> 00:05:55.810
A 20 foot right of away,
00:05:55.810 --> 00:05:59.763
they claim that they use
insecticide or herbicide
00:06:03.270 --> 00:06:04.103
in the right of way.
00:06:04.103 --> 00:06:06.963
But the plan was to cut
the tree down next year.
00:06:08.822 --> 00:06:12.091
Well, we've gotta do better
than that is what I'm saying.
00:06:12.091 --> 00:06:14.630
We can't let 20 foot trees
go in our rights of away.
00:06:14.630 --> 00:06:17.300
It doesn't matter when we plan,
00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:18.670
we gotta use technology.
00:06:18.670 --> 00:06:20.820
We gotta find ways to make sure
00:06:20.820 --> 00:06:23.963
that these rights of
ways that we've granted,
00:06:26.015 --> 00:06:29.520
that these utilities manage
for the good of consumers
00:06:29.520 --> 00:06:32.340
are kept clean and that, you know,
00:06:32.340 --> 00:06:34.430
trees that are growing like that,
00:06:34.430 --> 00:06:36.930
especially in wet weather
years or the year after.
00:06:37.850 --> 00:06:39.520
These aren't hard issues to resolve.
00:06:39.520 --> 00:06:41.050
They're time-consuming, they're costly.
00:06:41.050 --> 00:06:45.380
But in my opinion, we have
to see better on this space.
00:06:45.380 --> 00:06:48.060
Especially if you know
the problem's there.
00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:48.893
That's right.
00:06:50.306 --> 00:06:52.556
This year, not next year.
00:06:55.723 --> 00:06:57.373
I agree with everything you said.
00:06:58.264 --> 00:07:01.960
I know this is an issue
you've also (indistinct)
00:07:01.960 --> 00:07:05.530
and I appreciate that focus
and support the direction
00:07:05.530 --> 00:07:07.000
both of y'all are taking.
00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:10.890
It's often overlooked,
00:07:10.890 --> 00:07:14.633
but absolutely critical
part of day-to-day reliability.
00:07:15.620 --> 00:07:17.980
Any other thoughts or comments?
00:07:17.980 --> 00:07:19.180
No.
00:07:19.180 --> 00:07:23.540
I was comfortable with
the revised proposed order
00:07:23.540 --> 00:07:28.540
and would make a motion
to approve the revised order.
00:07:34.440 --> 00:07:35.290
So moved.
00:07:35.290 --> 00:07:36.530
Second.
00:07:36.530 --> 00:07:37.646
All in favor, say aye.
00:07:37.646 --> 00:07:38.479
[Commissioners together] Aye.
00:07:38.479 --> 00:07:39.313
Motion passes.
00:07:41.390 --> 00:07:42.990
Next item, please.
00:07:42.990 --> 00:07:44.400
Number 18, I believe.
00:07:44.400 --> 00:07:45.629
Yes, sir.
00:07:45.629 --> 00:07:47.420
Item 18 is docket 52282.
00:07:47.420 --> 00:07:49.510
It's a complainant BHC
property management
00:07:49.510 --> 00:07:51.233
that gets NG Resources.
00:07:52.400 --> 00:07:54.630
Drop preliminary orders
filed on October 19th.
00:07:54.630 --> 00:07:57.143
Commissioner McAdams
has a memo in this matter.
00:07:57.980 --> 00:07:59.580
Would you like to
lay out your memo?
00:07:59.580 --> 00:08:02.840
Well, I was excited
to see this case
00:08:04.110 --> 00:08:06.380
show up on the agenda.
00:08:06.380 --> 00:08:10.790
And it was because this is
sort of our first opportunity
00:08:10.790 --> 00:08:13.680
to take a bite out of
an apple or an issue
00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.201
that we have been talking about
00:08:16.201 --> 00:08:18.280
since I came into the
Commission and you Mr. Chairman,
00:08:18.280 --> 00:08:19.483
and so on.
00:08:25.977 --> 00:08:26.810
Form contracts, mean form contracts.
00:08:26.810 --> 00:08:29.290
And we had this whole conversation
00:08:29.290 --> 00:08:31.520
after Winter Storm Uri
00:08:31.520 --> 00:08:35.470
as the human cry from
the public on their charges
00:08:35.470 --> 00:08:38.343
that they were experiencing
was starting to flare up.
00:08:39.420 --> 00:08:41.770
Well, now we have taken action.
00:08:41.770 --> 00:08:45.480
This Commission has adopted
with legislative guidance
00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:47.010
and legislative tools.
00:08:47.010 --> 00:08:49.540
We have adopted a
securitization framework
00:08:49.540 --> 00:08:50.560
and that's moving forward.
00:08:50.560 --> 00:08:53.200
My memo was designed to
make sure that that is captured
00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:56.220
in the questions that should
absolutely be addressed
00:08:56.220 --> 00:09:00.580
in these preliminary orders
and for ALJ consideration
00:09:00.580 --> 00:09:03.360
as these topics move
through the process.
00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:07.310
And that way we can get a good sightline
00:09:07.310 --> 00:09:09.720
on how these tools will
be used for the benefit
00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:12.240
of the consumers that they
were expressly designed
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:13.073
to affect.
00:09:15.830 --> 00:09:16.750
Commissioner McAdams.
00:09:16.750 --> 00:09:20.090
Thank you so much for
your leadership on this issue.
00:09:20.090 --> 00:09:21.290
This is an important issue.
00:09:21.290 --> 00:09:25.800
I think not just now,
while I'm currently serving
00:09:25.800 --> 00:09:27.570
as a Commissioner here.
00:09:27.570 --> 00:09:29.070
These are issues I experienced
00:09:31.180 --> 00:09:33.914
when I was serving as
public counsel at (indistinct).
00:09:33.914 --> 00:09:35.610
And we received many consumer calls
00:09:35.610 --> 00:09:39.290
from sort of larger
commercial customers.
00:09:39.290 --> 00:09:40.630
Not really the smaller commercial,
00:09:40.630 --> 00:09:43.590
but just bigger than smaller
commercial customers
00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:47.610
throughout the state
that were getting ancillary
00:09:47.610 --> 00:09:49.047
service charges passed on to them.
00:09:49.047 --> 00:09:54.047
And in many times they
were just huge, huge amounts.
00:09:55.832 --> 00:09:58.420
And it was really tough, you know,
00:09:58.420 --> 00:09:59.560
hearing those concerns.
00:09:59.560 --> 00:10:01.483
These were mom and pop businesses,
00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:08.350
that were getting $100,000
bill that no one can file
00:10:08.350 --> 00:10:09.290
for those types of bills.
00:10:09.290 --> 00:10:11.690
And while I recognize
that many of the companies,
00:10:11.690 --> 00:10:14.160
and it was a handful of them
that passed down these costs,
00:10:14.160 --> 00:10:16.110
or at least those are the calls we got,
00:10:17.680 --> 00:10:20.993
per their contract could
pass these costs along.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.529
We've got to close the loopholes.
00:10:24.529 --> 00:10:26.393
And I think, you know,
00:10:27.850 --> 00:10:32.680
4492, house bill 4492
specifically provided
00:10:33.918 --> 00:10:35.920
a pathway for those
customers to get a refund
00:10:35.920 --> 00:10:38.400
and a credit in our
debt obligation order
00:10:38.400 --> 00:10:41.363
in Docket number 52322,
00:10:42.640 --> 00:10:44.010
an approval of a settlement agreement
00:10:44.010 --> 00:10:46.730
that requires the companies
that get securitization
00:10:47.608 --> 00:10:49.270
financing to credit and
refund the customers
00:10:49.270 --> 00:10:51.180
is extremely important.
00:10:51.180 --> 00:10:53.280
We've gotta provide that
relief to those customers
00:10:53.280 --> 00:10:55.220
that got those causes passed on to them.
00:10:55.220 --> 00:10:57.690
And so I commend you
for highlighting this issue
00:10:59.630 --> 00:11:02.780
since we might get more of
these cases come before us.
00:11:02.780 --> 00:11:06.510
'Cause I know we encourage
customers to file complaints
00:11:06.510 --> 00:11:07.730
just so they can get on the record.
00:11:07.730 --> 00:11:10.160
And at some point we can
come up with some framework
00:11:10.160 --> 00:11:12.093
to address these issues.
00:11:12.093 --> 00:11:12.926
And here they are.
00:11:12.926 --> 00:11:16.740
Here's the first one with the
complaint by BHC property
00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:19.200
management versus NG Resources.
00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:23.530
And so I would, if you will,
00:11:23.530 --> 00:11:25.260
ask even more specific questions
00:11:25.260 --> 00:11:30.260
so we can ensure that
we get all of the information
00:11:32.210 --> 00:11:33.690
we need in the record.
00:11:33.690 --> 00:11:36.590
And I think your broader
question is definitely important.
00:11:37.877 --> 00:11:40.170
If you will just kind of, you know,
00:11:40.170 --> 00:11:41.200
bear with me a little bit.
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:42.619
Have at it.
00:11:42.619 --> 00:11:45.250
I would say that I
think the first question
00:11:46.387 --> 00:11:49.390
should be what effect
does the Commission's
00:11:49.390 --> 00:11:53.340
debt obligation order
in docket number 52322
00:11:53.340 --> 00:11:54.260
have on this case?
00:11:54.260 --> 00:11:56.880
So, very similar to your broad question.
00:11:56.880 --> 00:11:59.000
'Cause I wanna tie it to
the debt obligation order.
00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:01.430
'Cause that's where the
requirements to refund
00:12:01.430 --> 00:12:06.430
and credit are specifically
prescribed by the Commission
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:10.367
and per HB 442.
00:12:10.367 --> 00:12:12.740
Second question I would ask is,
00:12:12.740 --> 00:12:17.740
is NG Resources LLC
receiving securitization proceeds
00:12:18.270 --> 00:12:20.620
pursuant to the debt obligation order
00:12:20.620 --> 00:12:22.363
in docket number 52322.
00:12:25.420 --> 00:12:29.990
Third question is if so,
is NG Resources LLC
00:12:29.990 --> 00:12:31.990
required to provide a refund or credit
00:12:31.990 --> 00:12:34.670
to its customers for
ancillary service costs
00:12:34.670 --> 00:12:36.880
in excess of the system-wide offer cap
00:12:37.890 --> 00:12:40.490
and for reliability deployment
price at our charges.
00:12:41.420 --> 00:12:44.373
And what is the amount
of the refunded credit?
00:12:45.420 --> 00:12:48.470
So I wanna make sure that
we get all this information
00:12:48.470 --> 00:12:50.853
in the record and as we get other cases,
00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.280
potentially other
cases that involve reps
00:12:54.280 --> 00:12:55.113
that pass these costs down,
00:12:55.113 --> 00:12:56.220
and we just, you know,
00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:58.150
plug in the other company's name
00:12:58.150 --> 00:12:59.790
and we have these specific questions
00:12:59.790 --> 00:13:01.810
laid out in our preliminary
order going forward
00:13:01.810 --> 00:13:06.810
so that we get the facts in
the record that, you know,
00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:10.930
this rep hasn't opted out of 52322,
00:13:10.930 --> 00:13:14.330
and that they recognize
the requirement to refund
00:13:14.330 --> 00:13:15.540
and credit their customer
00:13:15.540 --> 00:13:17.290
and how much they planned to do so.
00:13:18.140 --> 00:13:22.410
Can we edit your last
question to include refund
00:13:22.410 --> 00:13:27.410
and/or provide long-term
financing for any
00:13:28.290 --> 00:13:29.773
remaining obligations.
00:13:31.410 --> 00:13:33.310
If they put them up on a payment plan.
00:13:34.230 --> 00:13:36.823
Sure, however we
wanna capture that.
00:13:38.430 --> 00:13:42.843
So, what is the amount
of the refund or credit or...
00:13:45.470 --> 00:13:50.470
Any long-term financing or
payment plan made available.
00:13:54.044 --> 00:13:54.877
Does that work?
00:13:54.877 --> 00:13:56.047
Yeah, I think so.
00:13:56.047 --> 00:13:58.209
So I would say just to
help Steven a little bit is,
00:13:58.209 --> 00:14:00.063
what is the amount
of the refund or credit,
00:14:02.130 --> 00:14:06.370
and also provide us with information
00:14:06.370 --> 00:14:10.170
on whether they are
entering into payment plans
00:14:10.170 --> 00:14:12.190
with their customers
that are owed a refund
00:14:12.190 --> 00:14:13.090
or credit as well.
00:14:13.090 --> 00:14:14.090
Or something along those lines.
00:14:14.090 --> 00:14:16.100
We can work with you offline.
00:14:16.100 --> 00:14:18.700
So I think we would
ask are they required
00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:20.280
to provide a refund or a credit,
00:14:20.280 --> 00:14:22.680
that's the statutory directive.
00:14:22.680 --> 00:14:27.343
And then we could say,
if so, what is this amount?
00:14:30.822 --> 00:14:34.440
And are you using a long-term financing
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:38.510
or payment plan to recoup these amounts?
00:14:38.510 --> 00:14:39.798
Something like that?
00:14:39.798 --> 00:14:43.150
Making a long-term financing
plan available to customers,
00:14:43.150 --> 00:14:44.710
or the customer.
00:14:44.710 --> 00:14:47.253
We may have to just make
that a separate question.
00:14:48.194 --> 00:14:49.540
A sub-question.
00:14:49.540 --> 00:14:50.373
Sure.
00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:56.030
Yeah, that'd be
good information.
00:14:56.030 --> 00:14:58.743
Yeah, both of y'all are
asking important questions.
00:14:59.809 --> 00:15:03.510
Are you comfortable adding
the association to the dead order
00:15:05.910 --> 00:15:07.610
to our question with her question?
00:15:09.601 --> 00:15:10.570
Tighten that up.
00:15:10.570 --> 00:15:11.894
Yep.
00:15:11.894 --> 00:15:13.050
And thank you for
your consideration,
00:15:13.050 --> 00:15:13.980
Commissioner McAdams.
00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:16.560
Again, I really do thank
you for raising this issue.
00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:19.930
It is a very important
issue and for being open
00:15:19.930 --> 00:15:23.330
to my additional specific
questions and Chairman Lake
00:15:23.330 --> 00:15:25.040
for your additional question.
00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:26.560
Thanks, Commissioner.
00:15:30.706 --> 00:15:31.539
All right.
00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:32.440
Is there a motion to
approve the preliminary order
00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.210
with the addition of
the questions outlined
00:15:35.210 --> 00:15:37.220
from the dias today?
00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:38.053
So moved.
00:15:38.053 --> 00:15:38.886
Second.
00:15:38.886 --> 00:15:40.118
All in favor, say aye.
00:15:40.118 --> 00:15:40.951
[Commissioners together] Aye.
00:15:40.951 --> 00:15:41.784
Motion passes.
00:15:44.380 --> 00:15:47.100
That brings us to item 19.
00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:49.916
I believe Commissioner Glotfelty,
00:15:49.916 --> 00:15:52.800
you've got a few things
to discuss on this one.
00:15:52.800 --> 00:15:55.080
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.740
I did request that project number 46304
00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:01.080
be added to the docket today.
00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:04.150
As a little background,
00:16:04.150 --> 00:16:07.083
one of my first meetings
a few months ago.
00:16:08.430 --> 00:16:11.150
So Commissioner Cobos
was talking about the expansion
00:16:11.150 --> 00:16:12.550
of transmission.
00:16:12.550 --> 00:16:14.960
One of the issues that
what was brought up
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:19.650
that we discussed during
that open meeting was
00:16:19.650 --> 00:16:21.513
the Southern cross-transmission line.
00:16:24.836 --> 00:16:26.160
The chairman suggested
that I do a little bit
00:16:26.160 --> 00:16:28.340
of research into this and
try to figure something out.
00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:31.790
And I'm happy to report
that I've kind of figured
00:16:31.790 --> 00:16:34.240
a little bit of it out,
but not the entire thing.
00:16:35.390 --> 00:16:38.013
Thus, I have a path forward.
00:16:39.670 --> 00:16:42.490
So this project has
been in regulatory review
00:16:42.490 --> 00:16:45.760
for seven years, which is a long time.
00:16:45.760 --> 00:16:47.760
I'm not saying that we
have all of the information
00:16:47.760 --> 00:16:49.013
to make decisions yet.
00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:50.873
ERCOT hasn't completed
00:16:50.873 --> 00:16:54.240
their review of all of the
directives that we gave them
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.120
in the original order.
00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:57.110
There are four remaining.
00:16:57.110 --> 00:16:59.801
I think two of those can be done now
00:16:59.801 --> 00:17:02.201
and two of them have
to be done at a later time.
00:17:03.182 --> 00:17:06.530
And I think there are
other areas that parties
00:17:06.530 --> 00:17:10.090
have suggested that need
some attention from us,
00:17:10.090 --> 00:17:14.420
including a revision or
a look at the export tariff
00:17:14.420 --> 00:17:18.323
and the cost of that as
well as more in general,
00:17:21.580 --> 00:17:23.593
the transmission planning for DC ties.
00:17:26.521 --> 00:17:29.930
What I propose is that we ask parties
00:17:33.410 --> 00:17:36.720
that are in this docket
to come and tell us
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.150
what the path forward is.
00:17:38.150 --> 00:17:39.310
There are a lot of things
00:17:39.310 --> 00:17:41.480
that are actually going on on this.
00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.630
ERCOT has given us
their ninth status report
00:17:45.630 --> 00:17:46.723
a few weeks ago.
00:17:48.140 --> 00:17:52.670
The committees at ERCOT
are working through the issues.
00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:57.670
But I don't yet have a
path forward that I can say,
00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.900
this is what we need to do, A, B and C.
00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:02.800
I think we need to do that together.
00:18:02.800 --> 00:18:05.520
But I think if we can
get the parties to file
00:18:05.520 --> 00:18:07.680
what they think the next steps are,
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.020
it will let us narrow down
that funnel of the issues
00:18:10.020 --> 00:18:12.320
that we absolutely have to address.
00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:16.160
Projects like this that are
not rate-based projects,
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.683
kind of live and die
in regulatory limbo.
00:18:20.670 --> 00:18:22.540
It's private capital that's being spent.
00:18:22.540 --> 00:18:24.023
And it's my view that,
00:18:26.930 --> 00:18:28.200
if it's in the public interest,
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.060
we should ensure that
we resolve our issues
00:18:32.060 --> 00:18:34.840
so that the private capital can be spent
00:18:34.840 --> 00:18:37.030
or the private capital
will go somewhere else.
00:18:37.030 --> 00:18:38.830
And either one of those is okay.
00:18:38.830 --> 00:18:41.000
That's the market, that's
supposed to decide that,
00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:46.000
but the regulatory responsibility
and the ERCOT review
00:18:46.780 --> 00:18:51.130
are things that we can speed
up finalize, and be done with.
00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:54.090
And so it's my recommendation, again,
00:18:54.090 --> 00:18:56.500
that we ask parties to come forth,
00:18:56.500 --> 00:18:58.560
tell us what the steps
are that have to be done
00:18:58.560 --> 00:19:00.190
to be completed.
00:19:00.190 --> 00:19:02.830
And then we can not
take action on those,
00:19:02.830 --> 00:19:03.993
whatever's proposed.
00:19:05.650 --> 00:19:07.490
Makes sense to me.
00:19:07.490 --> 00:19:09.400
Yeah, no, thank
you, Mr. Chairman.
00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:12.750
If I may ask a question
just to crystallize that.
00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:14.240
And frankly, on his face,
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:16.400
I think this is gonna be helpful.
00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:20.407
So the update, you know,
00:19:20.407 --> 00:19:21.770
and we've all received updates
00:19:21.770 --> 00:19:24.980
and we've received
updates officially, but again,
00:19:24.980 --> 00:19:29.060
I think we are very
close to ERCOT finalizing
00:19:29.060 --> 00:19:31.270
their portion of the review.
00:19:31.270 --> 00:19:34.400
And there's an ERCOT
responsibility portion
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:36.560
as per the directives that
the Commission adopt,
00:19:36.560 --> 00:19:38.080
a statutorily authorized.
00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:40.530
And then there's sort
of also a non-ERCOT,
00:19:40.530 --> 00:19:42.370
the other side of the border portion.
00:19:42.370 --> 00:19:46.750
So your intent is that the
update could help clarify
00:19:46.750 --> 00:19:48.810
what is remaining on
our side of the border,
00:19:48.810 --> 00:19:50.820
and then what is up
to those counterparties
00:19:50.820 --> 00:19:52.400
on the other side?
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:53.340
Absolutely.
00:19:53.340 --> 00:19:55.560
So, what I want to do is make sure
00:19:55.560 --> 00:19:58.880
that it's crystal clear
what ERCOT has to do,
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:00.270
what the applicant has to do,
00:20:00.270 --> 00:20:01.190
and what we have to do.
00:20:01.190 --> 00:20:02.140
I'm all for that.
00:20:03.460 --> 00:20:04.293
Sure, yeah.
00:20:04.293 --> 00:20:05.980
And timeframes
to get them resolved.
00:20:08.170 --> 00:20:10.890
No, I just, you know,
thank you for the update
00:20:10.890 --> 00:20:12.690
and your diligence on this issue.
00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:13.900
I think it's important.
00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:15.340
I mean, it has been several years
00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:17.980
and to maybe level set
to see where we're at
00:20:17.980 --> 00:20:19.780
and, you know, have
a roadmap of anything
00:20:19.780 --> 00:20:24.690
that ERCOT or the Commission
could do to, you know,
00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:29.473
at least do our end of doing
the due diligence on this tie.
00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.250
What form would
this take in practice?
00:20:33.250 --> 00:20:35.760
The form would
be for them to file
00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:39.433
within the existing
docket, which is 46304.
00:20:40.690 --> 00:20:43.960
They would file information
within that docket.
00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:47.250
And since it's already open--
00:20:47.250 --> 00:20:50.900
Do you want to file a
list of specific questions
00:20:50.900 --> 00:20:53.520
or scope of questions, or
you wanna just have them
00:20:53.520 --> 00:20:54.353
respond to your--
00:20:54.353 --> 00:20:56.120
I think the record is clear.
00:20:56.120 --> 00:20:58.450
They know what needs
to happen between now
00:20:58.450 --> 00:21:00.490
and when they're finally approved.
00:21:00.490 --> 00:21:01.833
Just let us know that.
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:03.970
Again, all three parties.
00:21:03.970 --> 00:21:04.820
Keep it simple.
00:21:05.990 --> 00:21:07.323
All right.
00:21:07.323 --> 00:21:08.390
So you just wanna
leave it this informal
00:21:08.390 --> 00:21:09.680
then file when they want to,
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:12.100
or do you wanna issue an
order of this got timelines
00:21:12.100 --> 00:21:13.013
and requirements?
00:21:14.600 --> 00:21:15.433
I'd rather--
00:21:15.433 --> 00:21:16.340
Strong guidance from the dais.
00:21:16.340 --> 00:21:17.930
I'd like it before
the end of the year.
00:21:17.930 --> 00:21:20.200
I mean, this all plays into
market redesign as well.
00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:22.830
I would like it sooner
than the end of the year.
00:21:22.830 --> 00:21:25.530
I'd like it within 30
days, if we can get it.
00:21:25.530 --> 00:21:28.210
I think a lot of the stuff
they're working on now,
00:21:28.210 --> 00:21:30.580
so having something
filed with the Commission
00:21:30.580 --> 00:21:32.563
shouldn't be a huge lift.
00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:38.620
Does that require an order
or does that require a...
00:21:38.620 --> 00:21:40.370
Take an order might be useful.
00:21:40.370 --> 00:21:42.650
'Cause it'd be nice to
know 3000 megawatts
00:21:42.650 --> 00:21:45.310
of DC capability we're gonna
play in this whole market
00:21:45.310 --> 00:21:46.660
as we start moving forward.
00:21:48.858 --> 00:21:52.543
So, how would I propose
an order to do that?
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:57.470
We order what we just discussed?
00:21:57.470 --> 00:22:02.470
Yes, tell me to go draft you
in order and make a motion
00:22:02.690 --> 00:22:05.768
to so do so and then vote on it.
00:22:05.768 --> 00:22:06.601
And we'll go do so.
00:22:06.601 --> 00:22:09.053
I would suggest
that you draft a memo.
00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:11.170
Can you make a motion?
00:22:11.170 --> 00:22:14.120
I make a motion that
Stephen drafts a memo,
00:22:14.120 --> 00:22:18.173
the staff drafts a memo,
an order, excuse me,
00:22:19.337 --> 00:22:22.660
an order outlining the issues
that we just discussed here
00:22:22.660 --> 00:22:26.340
and that parties file comments
back, answering the issues
00:22:26.340 --> 00:22:28.308
we discussed within 30 days.
00:22:28.308 --> 00:22:29.896
And I would second.
00:22:29.896 --> 00:22:31.388
30 days of today.
00:22:31.388 --> 00:22:34.925
So we've got a motion and a second.
00:22:34.925 --> 00:22:36.370
30 days of the date
the order goes out.
00:22:36.370 --> 00:22:38.070
30 days from the
date the order goes out.
00:22:38.070 --> 00:22:40.313
Okay, you got a
motion and a second.
00:22:41.870 --> 00:22:43.449
All in favor, say aye.
00:22:43.449 --> 00:22:44.282
[Commissioners together] Aye.
00:22:44.282 --> 00:22:45.410
Motion passes.
00:22:45.410 --> 00:22:46.243
There we go.
00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:53.610
Next item 20 and 21.
00:22:53.610 --> 00:22:55.410
I don't have anything on those items.
00:22:55.410 --> 00:22:56.633
Do y'all?
I don't think so.
00:22:57.709 --> 00:23:01.410
It brings us to item 22.
00:23:01.410 --> 00:23:03.023
We've got a staff memo.
00:23:05.370 --> 00:23:07.610
So 22 is project 52307.
00:23:07.610 --> 00:23:09.950
It's a review of the rules of ERCOT.
00:23:09.950 --> 00:23:12.810
Staff filed up a memo
00:23:12.810 --> 00:23:14.540
discussing some actions of ERCOT
00:23:14.540 --> 00:23:17.340
with a proposed order for the Commission
00:23:17.340 --> 00:23:20.440
to approve those actions
of the ERCOT board.
00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:22.900
And for background for
those folks watching at home,
00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:25.560
these are the items that were approved
00:23:25.560 --> 00:23:28.640
with the most recent
ERCOT board meeting.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:30.358
I think it's pretty straight forward
00:23:30.358 --> 00:23:31.490
and it's been well vetted.
00:23:31.490 --> 00:23:33.610
At this point, the only
thing I would mention
00:23:33.610 --> 00:23:37.547
is that in addition to
NPR 1093 and OBDER,
00:23:45.050 --> 00:23:46.810
sorry, NPR 1093.
00:23:46.810 --> 00:23:50.870
In addition to that
bringing more load into play
00:23:50.870 --> 00:23:53.114
for our non spend resources
00:23:53.114 --> 00:23:58.100
would emphasize the
importance of NPR 1101
00:23:58.100 --> 00:23:59.750
as a follow-up on that
00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:02.850
to ensure that those
resources are deployed
00:24:02.850 --> 00:24:04.320
in a resource agnostic way
00:24:05.750 --> 00:24:08.040
as soon as possible after implementation
00:24:08.040 --> 00:24:10.440
of that new load resource.
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.700
So we will be enhancing
our margin of safety
00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:16.630
and doing it in a resource neutral way,
00:24:16.630 --> 00:24:21.630
encouraged stakeholders to
continue moving NPR 1101
00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:26.003
through the process with all alacrity.
00:24:27.860 --> 00:24:30.330
Is there a motion to, or any
other thoughts or questions
00:24:30.330 --> 00:24:32.140
or a motion to approve
the proposed order?
00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:33.170
So moved.
00:24:33.170 --> 00:24:34.003
Second.
00:24:34.003 --> 00:24:35.401
All in favor, say aye.
00:24:35.401 --> 00:24:36.440
[Commissioner together] Aye.
00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:37.785
None opposed.
00:24:37.785 --> 00:24:38.950
Motion passes.
00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:43.950
Item 23 regarding statutory definitions.
00:24:45.840 --> 00:24:48.133
Would Mr. Smelser please approach?
00:24:57.800 --> 00:24:58.650
Chairman, Commissioners,
00:24:58.650 --> 00:25:00.250
David Smelser, Commission staff.
00:25:02.060 --> 00:25:03.380
Today we have a simple PFP.
00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:06.030
This is just a box-checking rulemaking
00:25:06.030 --> 00:25:07.730
where there's a number of statutes
00:25:07.730 --> 00:25:10.580
that were passed that
can be implemented by us
00:25:10.580 --> 00:25:12.820
just updating our definitions
to match the definitions
00:25:12.820 --> 00:25:13.653
and statute.
00:25:15.271 --> 00:25:16.440
An example of the sorts
of things that are involved
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:18.660
is for instance, if
you're a electric vehicle
00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:22.470
charging station, you no
longer gotta have a rep certificate
00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:23.303
or electric utility.
00:25:23.303 --> 00:25:24.573
It's stuff like that.
00:25:24.573 --> 00:25:27.610
And then there's some code cleanup items
00:25:27.610 --> 00:25:29.190
that we just do whenever
we open these roles.
00:25:29.190 --> 00:25:32.790
So it's a pretty simple,
generally non-substantive
00:25:32.790 --> 00:25:36.293
rulemaking just to move
forward on some of this legislation.
00:25:37.290 --> 00:25:38.620
Appreciate your
diligence on it.
00:25:38.620 --> 00:25:40.280
Any questions, comments?
00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:42.643
Well done, copy and
pasting from the statute.
00:25:43.610 --> 00:25:44.460
Happy to do it.
00:25:47.140 --> 00:25:49.983
You're very diligent and
thorough copying and pasting.
00:25:51.450 --> 00:25:53.950
I actually made Christine
do it before she left.
00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:56.830
I needed a little help
on the copy-paste.
00:25:56.830 --> 00:25:57.870
There you go.
00:25:57.870 --> 00:26:00.400
Is there a motion to approve
the proposal for publications.
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:01.233
So moved.
00:26:01.233 --> 00:26:02.558
Second.
00:26:02.558 --> 00:26:03.391
All in favor, say aye.
00:26:03.391 --> 00:26:04.224
[Commissioners together] Aye.
00:26:04.224 --> 00:26:05.057
Mr. Chairman.
00:26:05.057 --> 00:26:05.890
Yes.
00:26:05.890 --> 00:26:06.930
This is an item
that we didn't include
00:26:06.930 --> 00:26:09.950
in our list of issues to deal
with the Consent Agenda.
00:26:09.950 --> 00:26:12.720
Is this the type of item
you'd like us to add to that?
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.320
I can do a revision to
that, bring it back to y'all.
00:26:16.874 --> 00:26:18.143
I certainly wouldn't
be opposed to that.
00:26:19.186 --> 00:26:20.140
Would not be opposed.
00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:20.990
Did I lose money?
00:26:22.678 --> 00:26:24.728
I had a bet going on
with Steven on this.
00:26:28.012 --> 00:26:30.089
Not a bet about me asking
y'all if y'all wanted to do it,
00:26:30.089 --> 00:26:30.922
but...
00:26:30.922 --> 00:26:32.933
I'm sure we can
take that offline.
00:26:37.770 --> 00:26:42.250
I appreciate a revision
as described to that.
00:26:42.250 --> 00:26:45.773
I will bring it to
you as time allows.
00:26:46.940 --> 00:26:47.773
Appreciate it.
00:26:49.150 --> 00:26:49.983
All right.
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:52.790
That will bring us to item number 24.
00:26:54.190 --> 00:26:58.723
We have a couple items
Commissioner McAdams filed in memos.
00:26:59.741 --> 00:27:01.500
So I'll ask him to lay that out fo us.
00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:02.660
Yes, sir.
00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:05.340
And welcome feedback.
00:27:05.340 --> 00:27:07.103
This memo is again,
00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:11.200
I'm very proud of my staff.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:13.173
They keep it concise,
00:27:14.750 --> 00:27:16.240
and that's intentional.
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:19.478
This memo is the product
of stakeholder conversations,
00:27:19.478 --> 00:27:22.610
conversations from this
dais in previous workgroups
00:27:22.610 --> 00:27:27.610
about the concept of prioritizing
dispatchable resources
00:27:27.930 --> 00:27:30.703
within the transmission
interconnection queue.
00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:36.660
I will highlight a
couple of concepts here
00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:42.988
and note that it is...
00:27:42.988 --> 00:27:43.920
And my memo can speak for itself,
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:48.210
but it is my belief
that this prioritization
00:27:48.210 --> 00:27:53.210
does not necessarily push
any resource to a back of a line
00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:57.513
or cause them to restart a process.
00:27:59.520 --> 00:28:01.240
This is policy is designed frankly,
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:05.410
to provide guidance to
transmission service providers
00:28:05.410 --> 00:28:10.140
in the event of a real land rush,
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:11.890
for lack of better words,
00:28:11.890 --> 00:28:15.453
in resource interconnection interests.
00:28:18.140 --> 00:28:20.973
Scenarios, like when Chris was built,
00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:23.253
always present themselves.
00:28:23.253 --> 00:28:25.930
Whenever new transmission
lines are built that open up
00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:28.750
vast territories that
offer good resources
00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:31.540
for Texas consumers and ERCOT
00:28:31.540 --> 00:28:33.633
to gain new resources for the system.
00:28:34.681 --> 00:28:37.480
There's always a surge of
interest in interconnection.
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:39.280
To be ahead of that,
00:28:39.280 --> 00:28:41.740
as in case and point,
we've discussed before
00:28:41.740 --> 00:28:43.200
the lower Rio Grande valley,
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.220
whenever that area becomes available
00:28:46.220 --> 00:28:49.540
to developers, resource
developers, generators.
00:28:49.540 --> 00:28:51.790
There's gonna be
strong interest in that area
00:28:52.731 --> 00:28:53.580
to deploy quickly.
00:28:53.580 --> 00:28:56.330
And our transmission service providers
00:28:56.330 --> 00:29:00.150
need to have some type of
guidance from this Commission
00:29:00.150 --> 00:29:03.283
on what is important to take up first.
00:29:05.527 --> 00:29:08.488
And that's the overarching
policy of the memo.
00:29:08.488 --> 00:29:13.488
It prioritizes in steps what
you should look at first,
00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:15.533
second, and then third.
00:29:16.410 --> 00:29:20.590
It also allows flexibility for ERCOT.
00:29:20.590 --> 00:29:23.090
Again, I'm trying to
keep this policy high level
00:29:23.090 --> 00:29:25.790
so that we don't have any
unintended consequences
00:29:25.790 --> 00:29:28.480
of being too specific
in our instruction,
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:31.030
but I would like the experts at ERCOT
00:29:31.030 --> 00:29:33.300
to have the flexibility to determine
00:29:34.630 --> 00:29:39.630
how a battery within that
two-hour dispatchability parameter
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.230
can play into that.
00:29:42.230 --> 00:29:45.910
As you've said, Mr. Chairman,
you can tie them together.
00:29:45.910 --> 00:29:46.930
You can scale them up.
00:29:46.930 --> 00:29:49.900
You can use them in a modular way.
00:29:49.900 --> 00:29:51.010
Physically or financially.
00:29:51.010 --> 00:29:51.850
That's right.
00:29:51.850 --> 00:29:56.410
I do not wanna discourage
battery deployment
00:29:58.132 --> 00:30:00.160
to not request the full extent
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.710
of their technical capabilities
in their interconnection.
00:30:02.710 --> 00:30:04.703
We want the full megawatts.
00:30:05.580 --> 00:30:08.620
But ultimately we also want
them to be able to cover,
00:30:08.620 --> 00:30:11.550
which is in our interest
over the next several years
00:30:11.550 --> 00:30:13.560
to cover a full two-hour period,
00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:15.290
because that's what ERCOT is telling us
00:30:15.290 --> 00:30:18.650
that we're desperately going
to need in the near future.
00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:22.530
And so from a standpoint
of giving the engineers
00:30:22.530 --> 00:30:23.877
at ERCOT the ability to say,
00:30:23.877 --> 00:30:26.620
"All right two hour capability."
00:30:26.620 --> 00:30:29.930
But and your applying for 100 megawatt
00:30:29.930 --> 00:30:32.129
battery interconnection,
00:30:32.129 --> 00:30:33.530
'cause that's what you
think you're gonna need
00:30:33.530 --> 00:30:35.110
on this project,
00:30:35.110 --> 00:30:39.180
but we're talking about a
two hour discharge capability
00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:41.920
of 50 megawatts for two hours.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.030
Then I want them to have
the flexibility to front-load that
00:30:45.030 --> 00:30:47.870
'cause 50 megawatts for
two hours is gonna come in
00:30:47.870 --> 00:30:50.530
real handy in 2023, I'm sure.
00:30:50.530 --> 00:30:52.620
Hopefully or 2024.
00:30:52.620 --> 00:30:55.510
So again, I wanna
allow that flexibility,
00:30:55.510 --> 00:30:59.080
but still prioritize on
a reasonable basis
00:30:59.080 --> 00:31:01.170
in the event that we have a panacea
00:31:02.020 --> 00:31:04.760
of generators wanting to
get into the ERCOT market
00:31:04.760 --> 00:31:07.653
after our market reforms go into effect.
00:31:09.190 --> 00:31:11.780
I realized there's been some discussion
00:31:11.780 --> 00:31:16.780
about TAC and our governing rules.
00:31:18.470 --> 00:31:23.470
I still having reviewed TAC
Chapter 25, 196 and so on.
00:31:25.210 --> 00:31:28.700
I believe that we have
the flexibility to prioritize still
00:31:28.700 --> 00:31:33.317
in interconnection
and I'll leave it at that,
00:31:33.317 --> 00:31:36.580
but I welcome any
conversation on this topic.
00:31:36.580 --> 00:31:39.550
Sure, I've got a couple
questions on there.
00:31:39.550 --> 00:31:41.070
I'm sure colleagues do as well.
00:31:41.070 --> 00:31:43.320
So I'll open it up for
questions or comments.
00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:46.137
Go ahead, Mr. Chair.
00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:53.280
I like what you laid out
here and I'm very grateful
00:31:53.280 --> 00:31:55.250
for you grabbing this bull by the horns.
00:31:55.250 --> 00:31:57.200
It's something that
needs to be addressed
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:01.053
and is an important step forward.
00:32:03.210 --> 00:32:05.200
More on the more logistical side.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:06.033
Yes, sir.
00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:08.920
On your second bullet point
00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:11.550
and I agree philosophically
with your sequencing
00:32:12.760 --> 00:32:14.560
of everybody's resources and projects,
00:32:14.560 --> 00:32:16.390
co-located with inverter based resources
00:32:16.390 --> 00:32:19.963
that maybe dispatch
for two or more hours.
00:32:23.435 --> 00:32:25.970
Is the entire project gonna be included
00:32:25.970 --> 00:32:28.410
in that second traunch of prioritization
00:32:28.410 --> 00:32:31.820
or just the capacity that is associated
00:32:31.820 --> 00:32:33.400
with dispatchability?
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:34.810
No, sir, the entire project.
00:32:34.810 --> 00:32:37.100
Again, we want, in my view
00:32:37.100 --> 00:32:41.163
and this is where we need
to iron out the logistics of that.
00:32:43.370 --> 00:32:46.200
The intent is to give a
market signal of desirability
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:47.520
of performance.
00:32:47.520 --> 00:32:50.160
And again, a market
signal that those resources
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:53.040
that are in queue should
have every reason to go out
00:32:53.040 --> 00:32:57.530
and procure a dispatchable
component to their project,
00:32:58.740 --> 00:33:00.800
either a wind farm or a solar farm.
00:33:00.800 --> 00:33:05.150
And so in my view, it's
in our interest to insent
00:33:05.150 --> 00:33:06.500
every bit that we can get.
00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:09.900
And so it should be able
to qualify that entire project
00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:13.150
under the dispatchability
of that battery.
00:33:14.087 --> 00:33:17.680
In anticipation
of gamesmanship.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:18.513
Yes, sir.
00:33:19.833 --> 00:33:23.600
Along the lines of a
one megawatt two hour
00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:26.070
dispatchable battery
attached to 100 megawatt
00:33:26.070 --> 00:33:27.830
or 1,000 megawatt wind farm.
00:33:27.830 --> 00:33:28.663
Yes, sir.
00:33:28.663 --> 00:33:30.653
Doesn't really solve
what we're aiming for.
00:33:32.271 --> 00:33:34.940
Would you consider some
sort of minimum hurdle
00:33:34.940 --> 00:33:39.940
of associated two hour or
more storage, like 30, 50,
00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:42.290
60% thing to say that you can't just
00:33:43.270 --> 00:33:45.710
put a battery in the corner and qualify.
00:33:45.710 --> 00:33:48.310
So it's gotta be real, real numbers.
00:33:48.310 --> 00:33:50.010
It's gotta be real dispatchability.
00:33:50.010 --> 00:33:55.010
Yeah, if we were to
consider that the ITC,
00:33:55.505 --> 00:33:59.040
the investment tax credit
has a threshold for solar
00:33:59.040 --> 00:34:04.040
and it's 75% of the
energy produced from that,
00:34:05.930 --> 00:34:10.630
I believe that might be
the recoupment threshold.
00:34:10.630 --> 00:34:13.067
They take at least 75% of the energy
00:34:13.067 --> 00:34:15.870
that's gonna be
discharged from that battery
00:34:15.870 --> 00:34:18.833
from that project that
it's co located with.
00:34:20.750 --> 00:34:22.030
I don't know off
the top of my head.
00:34:22.030 --> 00:34:25.093
Yeah, my understanding
of the ITC is just basically,
00:34:26.822 --> 00:34:28.480
it's a tax credit and the
last time I looked at it,
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:33.480
which has been a little while
it was 30% out of the project.
00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:35.910
So like if you had a $100,000 project,
00:34:35.910 --> 00:34:38.280
30% tax credit so that
you wouldn't be giving
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.820
to the federal government.
00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:40.680
Offsetting other income.
00:34:40.680 --> 00:34:42.350
But my point is that
the federal government
00:34:42.350 --> 00:34:47.350
will pay for the battery
if they take up to 75%
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:52.040
of the energy that's
dispatched from that battery
00:34:52.040 --> 00:34:54.120
from the co-located solar farm.
00:34:54.120 --> 00:34:56.130
So it gets bundled in.
00:34:56.130 --> 00:34:58.370
And so in order to have a
consistent policy approach
00:34:58.370 --> 00:34:59.900
and thus get more.
00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:00.810
Yes, sir.
00:35:00.810 --> 00:35:01.984
Very good.
00:35:01.984 --> 00:35:04.660
So you qualifies for bullet
point to the second level
00:35:04.660 --> 00:35:06.440
of prioritization if...
00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:09.813
It's not working well.
00:35:09.813 --> 00:35:13.070
The batteries total capacity
equals 75% of the project
00:35:13.070 --> 00:35:15.460
or more of the project
that is co-located.
00:35:15.460 --> 00:35:16.293
Okay.
00:35:18.030 --> 00:35:21.320
That makes a lot of sense
and appreciate your consistency
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:22.550
with federal policy.
00:35:22.550 --> 00:35:25.110
I'm trying to line
this up somehow.
00:35:25.110 --> 00:35:28.200
The second question is
both a question and a comment
00:35:30.240 --> 00:35:35.240
about the two hour or more
dispatchability requirement.
00:35:38.028 --> 00:35:41.210
If you're comfortable
and the operations team
00:35:41.210 --> 00:35:42.785
at ERCOT is comfortable with that,
00:35:42.785 --> 00:35:44.730
there's been a debate about that.
00:35:44.730 --> 00:35:48.410
Then I'll defer to the
operational experts on that,
00:35:48.410 --> 00:35:50.770
but I wanna make
sure that we are putting
00:35:50.770 --> 00:35:55.060
the operational need
first and we're not letting
00:35:55.060 --> 00:35:59.780
the current available technology
just because we've got it,
00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:04.593
let's make that fit into a wag
the dog or operational need,
00:36:06.540 --> 00:36:07.980
because first and foremost,
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:11.970
we can't sacrifice
operational reliability
00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:16.263
just so we can fit a round
peg into a square hole.
00:36:18.080 --> 00:36:21.300
And secondly and just as importantly,
00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:24.730
is that the way to incentive...
00:36:24.730 --> 00:36:28.650
I mean, the way to incentivize continued
00:36:28.650 --> 00:36:33.330
and more aggressive
development of these technologies
00:36:33.330 --> 00:36:38.300
is to set the higher standard
and put the incentives there
00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:41.053
so the technology needs to
match our operational needs,
00:36:43.017 --> 00:36:44.140
not matching the incentive
00:36:44.140 --> 00:36:46.673
to what the market already provides.
00:36:47.620 --> 00:36:50.220
I'll defer to you in the
operational team at ERCOT
00:36:50.220 --> 00:36:53.943
on what that hour requirement,
minimum hour requirement is.
00:36:55.160 --> 00:36:58.600
But I certainly do not
want in a year or two
00:36:58.600 --> 00:37:02.970
to be hearing about how
we don't our dispatchability
00:37:02.970 --> 00:37:04.763
doesn't cover the full duck curve.
00:37:06.730 --> 00:37:08.540
And that's not a comment to you,
00:37:08.540 --> 00:37:12.000
that's a comment that
the battery industry.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.970
I don't think any of us
wanna be getting those calls
00:37:13.970 --> 00:37:18.970
saying we're dangerously
tight in our grid conditions today
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.820
because two hours turns
out not to be long enough.
00:37:24.290 --> 00:37:26.230
So let's maintain that
operational reliability
00:37:26.230 --> 00:37:28.530
principle first and work
backwards from there.
00:37:30.870 --> 00:37:33.323
We don't need to solve
it today, but like I said,
00:37:33.323 --> 00:37:34.156
I just wanna...
00:37:34.156 --> 00:37:36.790
Philosophically, if you're
looking for another vote
00:37:36.790 --> 00:37:39.967
on any type of concept,
I would vote for that.
00:37:39.967 --> 00:37:41.370
I support that.
00:37:41.370 --> 00:37:44.070
That is the basis for
this entire prioritization.
00:37:44.070 --> 00:37:46.140
Again, we're trying
to give a market signal
00:37:46.140 --> 00:37:49.840
that supports our operational
reliability on the system.
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.900
So at this time anecdote,
00:37:52.900 --> 00:37:54.840
I mean, that's what we've heard we need,
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:58.020
but again, that's not a statement
00:37:58.020 --> 00:38:00.400
that this isn't gonna evolve.
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:02.640
I mean, it needs to be able to evolve
00:38:02.640 --> 00:38:05.990
and we have to be
able to adapt with that.
00:38:07.967 --> 00:38:08.800
And Commissioner McAdams,
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:10.500
thank you for your update on the memo.
00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:14.340
We had several
discussions about this topic
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:16.420
at our work session and over the course
00:38:16.420 --> 00:38:19.163
of the last couple of work
sessions and now today,
00:38:20.550 --> 00:38:23.900
I think your updated
memo is really trying
00:38:23.900 --> 00:38:27.640
to move in a direction
that that does send
00:38:27.640 --> 00:38:30.500
the appropriate market
signal and is more tailored
00:38:30.500 --> 00:38:34.050
to what, just setting that
bar just a little bit higher
00:38:34.050 --> 00:38:37.360
so that we can drive
that on to our batteries.
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:39.190
My understanding is
that most of the batteries
00:38:39.190 --> 00:38:41.730
that are in are ERCOT
right now in the queue
00:38:41.730 --> 00:38:45.440
are one hour, one and a half hour.
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:47.090
The duck curve that we're
gonna be experiencing
00:38:47.090 --> 00:38:50.140
in the next one or two
years, at least initially,
00:38:50.140 --> 00:38:51.910
maybe about two hours.
00:38:51.910 --> 00:38:56.910
So I'm taking all of those
issues into consideration
00:38:58.010 --> 00:39:00.170
and certainly appreciate,
00:39:00.170 --> 00:39:03.180
I'm not as well versed
on the storage ITC portion,
00:39:03.180 --> 00:39:05.250
but staying consistent
with federal policy,
00:39:05.250 --> 00:39:08.860
I think makes sense so that
you can drive that innovation
00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:10.140
and send the right price signal.
00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:11.760
And we're getting those
technologies in there.
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:16.400
But Chairman Lake, I see
what you're saying as well
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.343
on the operational end of it.
00:39:19.350 --> 00:39:21.450
My thought process has been,
00:39:21.450 --> 00:39:25.780
we're gonna get these resources,
solar resources in Texas.
00:39:25.780 --> 00:39:28.620
Let's try to figure out a way
to encourage them to show up
00:39:28.620 --> 00:39:31.990
with storage as best as we can.
00:39:31.990 --> 00:39:35.450
And I understand your comments about,
00:39:35.450 --> 00:39:39.030
well, let's just not like,
you know, get everything
00:39:39.030 --> 00:39:41.050
sort of custom tailored to provide...
00:39:41.990 --> 00:39:44.890
To fit that need for
the solar plus storage.
00:39:44.890 --> 00:39:46.080
I certainly understand that.
00:39:46.080 --> 00:39:48.280
My understanding my
discussions with ERCOT
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:52.620
is that they'll have a set of tools
00:39:52.620 --> 00:39:53.920
to address the duct curve,
00:39:55.080 --> 00:39:57.743
whether it be online
generation resources,
00:39:59.050 --> 00:40:04.010
potentially some
modification to non spin
00:40:04.010 --> 00:40:08.300
or just non spin period,
and then eventually ECRs.
00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:13.300
So I think your updated
memo moves it closer
00:40:14.828 --> 00:40:18.490
to the line of trying
to drive that innovation
00:40:18.490 --> 00:40:22.330
and that drive that
innovation to provide
00:40:22.330 --> 00:40:25.740
some of the
reliability/operational benefits
00:40:25.740 --> 00:40:29.920
that we're looking for as we
have a significant increase
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:31.473
in solar in the next few years.
00:40:34.428 --> 00:40:38.207
I, myself looked at
(indistinct), looked at the roles.
00:40:39.130 --> 00:40:43.760
And I think the fact
that you're not stopping
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.710
any resources from
interconnecting, if they're ready to go.
00:40:49.460 --> 00:40:51.270
They won't be stopped
from being interconnected.
00:40:51.270 --> 00:40:54.040
But if there is a situation
where prioritization
00:40:54.040 --> 00:40:57.270
needs to take place,
then ERCOT will prioritize
00:40:57.270 --> 00:41:02.270
based on what resources
would be available
00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:07.010
to provide the
dispatchable reliability need
00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:08.323
or service that we need.
00:41:09.700 --> 00:41:11.900
My understanding is that perhaps ERCOT
00:41:11.900 --> 00:41:14.410
already does some of this already.
00:41:14.410 --> 00:41:18.320
And if that is the case, I
mean, I would love to hear
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:19.960
from you know, if Woody,
00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:22.150
is this something y'all
normally do already
00:41:22.150 --> 00:41:24.970
with respect to like when
you have a mass amount
00:41:24.970 --> 00:41:29.700
of say projects, so that are
looking to be interconnected
00:41:29.700 --> 00:41:32.140
and you have to do
some kind of prioritization.
00:41:32.140 --> 00:41:34.093
Is this something you look at today?
00:41:40.890 --> 00:41:43.130
Woody Rickerson with ERCOT.
00:41:43.130 --> 00:41:44.980
So today through the screening process,
00:41:44.980 --> 00:41:48.900
we do not take into
consideration multiple units
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:50.490
connecting the same place.
00:41:50.490 --> 00:41:52.700
We know we don't tell the other people
00:41:52.700 --> 00:41:54.363
there's other competitors there.
00:41:56.971 --> 00:41:57.804
Is that what you were asking?
00:41:57.804 --> 00:42:00.860
Well, like If you already
had projects ready to go,
00:42:00.860 --> 00:42:04.950
and do you do any
prioritization right now?
00:42:04.950 --> 00:42:05.783
Oh, I'm sorry.
00:42:05.783 --> 00:42:08.120
So on the interconnection process.
00:42:08.120 --> 00:42:13.120
So a month ago we've
made a change in the way we,
00:42:13.510 --> 00:42:17.160
within the protocol guidelines
that we currently have,
00:42:17.160 --> 00:42:19.543
we moved dispatchable
generator to the top.
00:42:20.470 --> 00:42:23.150
So if we had a dispatchable generator
00:42:23.150 --> 00:42:25.920
and a non dispatchable generator,
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:28.120
our part of the interconnection process,
00:42:28.120 --> 00:42:31.610
we already moved that
dispatchable one to the top
00:42:31.610 --> 00:42:33.040
while at the same time,
00:42:33.040 --> 00:42:37.163
maintaining all the required protocol.
00:42:38.090 --> 00:42:40.440
So everyone in the queue will still meet
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.230
all the protocol timelines,
00:42:42.230 --> 00:42:46.483
but we're getting to
prioritize the dispatchable unit.
00:42:48.740 --> 00:42:51.050
So in other words, Woody,
00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:54.380
nobody slides to the
bottom or anything like that.
00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:58.242
It's a question of when
you have five projects
00:42:58.242 --> 00:43:00.900
in a given area and you're
trying to sort bandwidth
00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:04.450
and get the necessary studies complete,
00:43:04.450 --> 00:43:06.230
all those phases of studies,
00:43:06.230 --> 00:43:08.480
concurrent with
transmission service providers
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:11.040
who are doing their studies,
00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:12.940
their portions of the studies as well.
00:43:15.483 --> 00:43:17.370
This concept that you've
heard from the dais
00:43:17.370 --> 00:43:20.640
simply provides some
sort of order of merit
00:43:20.640 --> 00:43:23.290
in terms of prioritizing manpower
00:43:24.980 --> 00:43:28.010
when you have five projects.
00:43:28.010 --> 00:43:29.640
You take that dispatchable first
00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:32.210
and then you get to the intermittent.
00:43:32.210 --> 00:43:34.520
Yeah, we're not compromising
any of the timelines
00:43:34.520 --> 00:43:38.690
that we're mandated to meet for anyone.
00:43:38.690 --> 00:43:41.300
Anyone that has a generation
interconnection project,
00:43:41.300 --> 00:43:45.770
we're meeting all the
protocol timelines for everyone.
00:43:45.770 --> 00:43:49.699
The only difference is
now we have prioritized
00:43:49.699 --> 00:43:51.439
the dispatchable.
00:43:51.439 --> 00:43:52.637
And I think it's important
to keep in mind--
00:43:52.637 --> 00:43:54.850
And what was the
discussion about that?
00:43:54.850 --> 00:43:58.850
I mean, it internally
about why you did it
00:43:58.850 --> 00:44:00.030
about how you did it.
00:44:00.030 --> 00:44:02.090
Was there broad discussion
amongst the stakeholders
00:44:02.090 --> 00:44:04.000
at ERCOT or was that...
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:05.350
Can you fill me in on that?
00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:10.970
Well, I think the context
there is that ERCOT
00:44:10.970 --> 00:44:13.313
is just one piece,
one link in that chain.
00:44:14.750 --> 00:44:17.830
So if you think about this
chain of events that has to occur
00:44:17.830 --> 00:44:20.209
for a generator to be interconnected,
00:44:20.209 --> 00:44:23.320
ERCOT has a piece here and
a piece here and a piece here.
00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:24.993
So when we get to our piece,
00:44:26.010 --> 00:44:27.820
we're moving the
dispatchable stuff to the top.
00:44:27.820 --> 00:44:30.850
Now there may be a
way that we can decrease
00:44:30.850 --> 00:44:32.583
the length of the chain also,
00:44:33.610 --> 00:44:36.110
but for the guidelines
that we currently have
00:44:36.110 --> 00:44:38.760
and the protocol
requirements we currently have,
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:40.930
we're just prioritizing
the dispatchable.
00:44:40.930 --> 00:44:43.430
Now, all these other links in the chain
00:44:43.430 --> 00:44:45.830
that occur with TSPs,
00:44:45.830 --> 00:44:48.780
I mean, that's a lot of what
the discussion has been about.
00:44:51.460 --> 00:44:52.900
I'm still a little
unclear on it.
00:44:52.900 --> 00:44:57.287
I mean, it's my understanding
that when a generator files
00:45:00.380 --> 00:45:02.050
in the interconnection cube,
00:45:02.050 --> 00:45:04.963
they go to the
transmission provider first.
00:45:06.290 --> 00:45:08.283
They pay an application fee.
00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:12.360
And in fact, there's
a process right there
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:13.670
where they can expedite
00:45:14.829 --> 00:45:15.700
with many of the transmission providers
00:45:15.700 --> 00:45:17.930
where they can expedite using something
00:45:17.930 --> 00:45:20.563
called a discretionary spending account,
00:45:21.450 --> 00:45:25.490
where if they pre-fund the
discretionary spending account,
00:45:25.490 --> 00:45:30.390
then the transmission service provider
00:45:30.390 --> 00:45:33.910
can not only do the
studies, but they can also do
00:45:33.910 --> 00:45:36.020
engineering work perhaps on a substation
00:45:36.020 --> 00:45:38.313
or an interconnecting substation.
00:45:39.750 --> 00:45:43.120
And that is allowed by every resource.
00:45:43.120 --> 00:45:48.120
And if that's the case, do
we even need to do this?
00:45:49.080 --> 00:45:53.480
Because, I mean, again, my view,
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:56.293
I'm worried about those
that are in the queue today,
00:45:57.620 --> 00:45:59.360
Queue in ERCOT is
different from the queue
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.360
in every other region
because of the cost allocation
00:46:04.540 --> 00:46:07.660
component of transmission upgrades,
00:46:07.660 --> 00:46:10.630
which a lot easier here
in ERCOT, obviously.
00:46:10.630 --> 00:46:15.630
But I'm worried about those
projects that have site control,
00:46:18.270 --> 00:46:20.873
that have PPAs associated
with their projects.
00:46:21.950 --> 00:46:24.313
They have contractual
delivery timeframes,
00:46:26.971 --> 00:46:27.929
they have ordered equipment,
00:46:27.929 --> 00:46:29.990
all of these things that bind them.
00:46:29.990 --> 00:46:33.440
And most of those in this
day and age are renewables.
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:36.173
Sure, does the
grandfathering clause address
00:46:36.173 --> 00:46:37.690
in (indistinct) address that concern?
00:46:37.690 --> 00:46:39.410
Well, I don't think
we've explored that.
00:46:39.410 --> 00:46:41.630
And I mean, that's where I would say
00:46:42.660 --> 00:46:45.330
I would wanna have a deeper
discussion about how we...
00:46:45.330 --> 00:46:48.070
Because this is substantial capital.
00:46:48.070 --> 00:46:51.130
This is not 45 grand or 50 grand.
00:46:51.130 --> 00:46:53.470
These are millions and
millions and millions of dollars
00:46:53.470 --> 00:46:56.900
that are being tied up
in these capital projects.
00:46:56.900 --> 00:47:01.900
And that if we just
arbitrarily jigger them around,
00:47:02.060 --> 00:47:06.040
because we want to, that's
not a good signal to the market.
00:47:06.040 --> 00:47:07.240
It doesn't incent.
00:47:07.240 --> 00:47:08.073
Sure.
00:47:08.073 --> 00:47:10.300
It does not insent
dispatchable either
00:47:11.720 --> 00:47:13.880
because we could change the rules again
00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:16.110
and just go back and
prioritize renewables
00:47:16.110 --> 00:47:17.520
and then dispatchables fall.
00:47:17.520 --> 00:47:20.540
So we have to be
careful about what we do
00:47:20.540 --> 00:47:25.540
and that we need to
make sure that it is fair.
00:47:26.410 --> 00:47:30.500
And those that are
existing in the process...
00:47:30.500 --> 00:47:31.333
Absolutely.
00:47:31.333 --> 00:47:36.330
Have a method to
stay in the process.
00:47:37.220 --> 00:47:39.140
I know also if I...
00:47:39.140 --> 00:47:40.600
Actually, I don't know, here in ERCOT,
00:47:40.600 --> 00:47:45.360
if I submitted an interconnection
for 100 megawatt project
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.030
and then have the ability
to come back and add
00:47:50.865 --> 00:47:52.690
75 megawatt battery storage,
00:47:52.690 --> 00:47:54.830
I suspect I would fall out of the queue
00:47:54.830 --> 00:47:56.730
and I'd have to re enter the queue.
00:47:56.730 --> 00:47:57.730
Is that correct?
00:47:57.730 --> 00:48:00.443
Depending on where you
were in the process, yes.
00:48:01.830 --> 00:48:04.000
Well, what technology
you're talking about?
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:05.200
Well, any change...
00:48:05.200 --> 00:48:06.833
If the change in a turbine type,
00:48:07.994 --> 00:48:10.080
it will require different studies,
00:48:10.080 --> 00:48:11.080
different stability studies--
00:48:11.080 --> 00:48:12.983
Sure, absolutely.
Different SSR study.
00:48:13.864 --> 00:48:17.840
So the purpose of the
generation interconnection process
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:21.460
is to safely and reliably
interconnect new generation.
00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:22.293
Absolutely.
00:48:22.293 --> 00:48:24.110
I don't think there's
anything in the process
00:48:24.110 --> 00:48:25.590
that isn't needed.
00:48:25.590 --> 00:48:27.760
We can't just go in
and cut some fat out.
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:28.860
There's not any fat there.
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:30.630
Everything that's there is for purpose,
00:48:30.630 --> 00:48:34.434
whether it's the TSP doing
it, whether it's ERCOT doing it
00:48:34.434 --> 00:48:35.570
or the review that you guys do,
00:48:35.570 --> 00:48:38.113
it's all there for a reason so
that when we do interconnect
00:48:38.113 --> 00:48:40.487
that generation it's
reliably interconnected
00:48:40.487 --> 00:48:42.733
and we don't have to worry about it
00:48:42.733 --> 00:48:43.566
causing a stability problem
00:48:43.566 --> 00:48:45.450
or an SSR problem or overload of line
00:48:45.450 --> 00:48:47.010
or something like that.
00:48:47.010 --> 00:48:48.480
So that's the...
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:52.930
I think the background for
all this is that all these things
00:48:52.930 --> 00:48:53.763
are needed.
00:48:53.763 --> 00:48:56.720
Maybe there's a way of lining them up
00:48:56.720 --> 00:48:59.980
so that we can decrease
the interconnection time
00:48:59.980 --> 00:49:01.194
essentially.
00:49:01.194 --> 00:49:02.100
Maybe there's something we can do,
00:49:02.100 --> 00:49:03.840
but these engineering studies are needed
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.740
and they do take time.
00:49:05.740 --> 00:49:08.190
And the timeframe
now is about two years
00:49:08.190 --> 00:49:09.580
to go from start to finish.
00:49:09.580 --> 00:49:12.070
So if you were put in
a year and a half ago
00:49:12.070 --> 00:49:14.973
and then we've rejiggered this,
00:49:15.890 --> 00:49:18.860
'cause you're just a wind
farm with nothing else.
00:49:18.860 --> 00:49:20.610
I mean, that's where I'm concerned.
00:49:21.806 --> 00:49:24.940
And what I would say
Commissioner McAdams
00:49:24.940 --> 00:49:29.550
is I would, if you wanna, I guess,
00:49:29.550 --> 00:49:30.500
let me just say it this way.
00:49:30.500 --> 00:49:31.640
I'd be happy to work with you
00:49:31.640 --> 00:49:33.730
on what these grandfathers are.
00:49:33.730 --> 00:49:35.930
I would be happy to have that discussion
00:49:35.930 --> 00:49:39.010
about real examples,
00:49:39.010 --> 00:49:41.610
not just talking with
the transmission owners
00:49:41.610 --> 00:49:43.090
and what their
interconnection process is,
00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:46.870
but understanding some of
the real life PPAs associated
00:49:46.870 --> 00:49:50.090
with some of these farms
with some of these projects,
00:49:50.090 --> 00:49:51.890
wind farms and solar farms and such.
00:49:53.680 --> 00:49:56.920
Yeah, no, I'm fully
sensitive to that.
00:49:56.920 --> 00:50:01.480
And I'd welcome working
through it, but I'll say this,
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:05.340
there is 100,000
megawatts of solar in queue
00:50:06.290 --> 00:50:08.020
ballpark right now.
00:50:08.020 --> 00:50:11.920
And power is no different
than any other market.
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:13.090
The costs are no different.
00:50:13.090 --> 00:50:16.560
If I go out and buy a lot
down the street from my house
00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:19.650
on a speculative basis
and just hold the lot,
00:50:19.650 --> 00:50:24.370
and then I get into some
type of weird permit process
00:50:24.370 --> 00:50:27.130
on like, but again, it's
just a matter of fact case
00:50:27.130 --> 00:50:29.790
in point, I know I'll get a
call from an HEB lobbyist.
00:50:29.790 --> 00:50:32.000
HEB in my neighborhood
00:50:32.890 --> 00:50:35.130
has been talking about
putting in a grocery store
00:50:35.130 --> 00:50:36.460
for 10 years.
00:50:36.460 --> 00:50:39.430
And they've got preferential
treatment from the developer
00:50:39.430 --> 00:50:42.340
or from the city in that neighbor
00:50:42.340 --> 00:50:45.240
to get that thing permitted
and put in that grocery store.
00:50:47.137 --> 00:50:49.980
And they're holding this
property, which is quite valuable
00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:53.480
to possibly put in that store.
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:56.200
But at the end they might
flip that to somebody else.
00:50:56.200 --> 00:50:58.330
So they put in the
bare minimum of capital
00:50:58.330 --> 00:51:00.830
and they're holding
their place in a permit line
00:51:00.830 --> 00:51:02.890
to get fast tracked through.
00:51:02.890 --> 00:51:05.120
And at the end of the day,
00:51:05.120 --> 00:51:07.170
we've gotta overcome those barriers.
00:51:07.170 --> 00:51:09.140
And I get they've got capital invested
00:51:09.140 --> 00:51:11.240
somewhere in their model.
00:51:11.240 --> 00:51:14.660
But for our view again,
00:51:14.660 --> 00:51:17.840
when we look at what only we can see,
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:20.780
and again, I can't see what
arrangements they've made
00:51:20.780 --> 00:51:24.480
so far in advance to hold
that speculative position in line,
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:29.241
but I can see when they
collateralize with ERCOT
00:51:29.241 --> 00:51:33.320
and the TSPs and then they
pay those interconnection amounts
00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:34.850
so that the studies can proceed
00:51:34.850 --> 00:51:36.550
and they're paying their way.
00:51:36.550 --> 00:51:39.820
We see that and we
see that point in the line
00:51:39.820 --> 00:51:42.720
where they progress enough
to where it's a financially
00:51:42.720 --> 00:51:44.510
and technically viable project.
00:51:44.510 --> 00:51:45.890
So that's, again, the--
00:51:45.890 --> 00:51:47.170
Agreed.
00:51:47.170 --> 00:51:49.520
There are a lot of projects in the queue
00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:51.320
that do not wanna be studied
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:53.230
in the interconnection process today.
00:51:53.230 --> 00:51:54.810
Yes, sir.
00:51:54.810 --> 00:51:58.763
Because there are companies
that have limited resources.
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:04.840
Their turbines may not come
for 24 months or for four years.
00:52:06.220 --> 00:52:08.560
And you wouldn't want
to spend your capital
00:52:08.560 --> 00:52:11.670
on the interconnection process today
00:52:11.670 --> 00:52:14.180
on a project that you know is so far off
00:52:14.180 --> 00:52:15.470
because of some of the examples,
00:52:15.470 --> 00:52:17.010
they may sell it to somebody else,
00:52:17.010 --> 00:52:18.460
let somebody else take the capital risk.
00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:19.990
So with that...
00:52:19.990 --> 00:52:22.570
But the question, you know,
00:52:22.570 --> 00:52:25.020
so that's not the issue
that I'm trying to solve.
00:52:26.130 --> 00:52:28.900
I'm just trying to say
that we have to figure out.
00:52:28.900 --> 00:52:31.320
Well, first of all, the
problem that we're solving
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:36.320
is not that I'm aware of
that dispatchable plants
00:52:36.430 --> 00:52:39.160
aren't getting their
interconnection studies.
00:52:39.160 --> 00:52:41.720
I have never heard a single company
00:52:41.720 --> 00:52:44.597
that has a dispatchable
plant come in and say,
00:52:44.597 --> 00:52:47.357
"My interconnection
cost is way too long.
00:52:47.357 --> 00:52:49.427
"I'm sorry, timeframe is way too long.
00:52:49.427 --> 00:52:51.027
"Please help me get through it."
00:52:52.210 --> 00:52:53.520
So, yes, sir.
00:52:53.520 --> 00:52:55.960
And I agree and that's
why I don't believe
00:52:55.960 --> 00:52:57.770
this is gonna be an issue for those
00:52:57.770 --> 00:52:59.950
who have committed
capital to buy equipment
00:52:59.950 --> 00:53:02.380
that are gonna deploy
over the next two years.
00:53:02.380 --> 00:53:05.150
Nobody has told me that
this is gonna be an issue.
00:53:05.150 --> 00:53:08.100
They worry about the
signal that this sends
00:53:08.100 --> 00:53:09.470
to their financiers.
00:53:09.470 --> 00:53:11.520
And frankly, if their financiers
have already given them
00:53:11.520 --> 00:53:13.230
money, they're kind of in bed with,
00:53:13.230 --> 00:53:15.230
I mean, they're committed.
00:53:15.230 --> 00:53:20.230
And so what I would say
is that this doesn't put them
00:53:22.210 --> 00:53:25.190
to the bottom of any list, it
does create an opportunity
00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:27.570
that if somebody goes
out and gets a two hour
00:53:27.570 --> 00:53:32.570
megawatt battery, that a
nameplate is 75% of the project
00:53:34.080 --> 00:53:36.020
that they're co locating with,
00:53:36.020 --> 00:53:38.200
they might get jumped in line
00:53:38.200 --> 00:53:41.800
in terms of that engineer
focusing on that project next
00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:45.320
and getting it done, which
is in the system's interest.
00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:46.710
I hear what you're saying,
00:53:46.710 --> 00:53:48.510
but I think a megawatt is a megawatt
00:53:50.810 --> 00:53:55.330
and that if you're telling
people that they have to go buy
00:53:55.330 --> 00:53:57.890
put a 75 megawatt battery on a wind farm
00:53:57.890 --> 00:54:00.520
in order to get through
the interconnection queue,
00:54:00.520 --> 00:54:03.480
this is a very massive transformation
00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:05.790
of what we're asking for in ERCOT.
00:54:05.790 --> 00:54:08.310
And economics may not work.
00:54:08.310 --> 00:54:10.260
But the federal government
has said that a megawatt
00:54:10.260 --> 00:54:13.303
is not a megawatt on the
basis that you're talking about.
00:54:14.517 --> 00:54:17.860
It funds it to a degree
that it's different.
00:54:17.860 --> 00:54:20.073
It's fully funded by
the federal government.
00:54:20.995 --> 00:54:21.863
You believe
everything they say?
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:25.590
Oh, no, I've seen
it and I'm impressed.
00:54:25.590 --> 00:54:27.870
I'll say a megawatts
is a megawatt,
00:54:27.870 --> 00:54:30.093
but every source of
megawatt is not equal.
00:54:32.306 --> 00:54:37.306
And I think we all wanna
welcome all generating resources
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:44.360
to ERCOT given the
strained situation we're in.
00:54:45.750 --> 00:54:50.470
But I will say that we've
got that a firm dispatchable
00:54:50.470 --> 00:54:55.220
source of megawatts
provides more value tomorrow
00:54:55.220 --> 00:54:59.553
than the 40th fourth out,
00:55:03.463 --> 00:55:07.670
you know, the 357th in plus
one intermittent resource.
00:55:07.670 --> 00:55:11.880
We like all of them, but the
value of dispatchability now,
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:16.880
right now is greater than
the value of an intermittent.
00:55:18.800 --> 00:55:23.083
Yeah, I think I
agree with 80% of that.
00:55:24.290 --> 00:55:28.960
Not 20, but I think
the price difference,
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:33.330
you know, I think a great
dispatchable resource
00:55:33.330 --> 00:55:38.330
at $12 gas is not as valuable
as a zero cost wind resource.
00:55:38.528 --> 00:55:39.361
Sure.
00:55:39.361 --> 00:55:43.660
Sure, but when we've
got 110, 120,000 megawatts
00:55:44.970 --> 00:55:49.190
of installed capacity, we're
not short on generation,
00:55:49.190 --> 00:55:51.430
installed capacity generation in Texas.
00:55:51.430 --> 00:55:54.620
The problem is a
third of that can vanish.
00:55:54.620 --> 00:55:55.453
I understand.
00:55:55.453 --> 00:55:57.630
Like last week and so that's
the value of dispatchability.
00:55:57.630 --> 00:56:00.800
But I still go back to
this question and that is,
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:04.910
if there are opportunities
for discretionary spending
00:56:04.910 --> 00:56:06.553
agreements already,
00:56:07.630 --> 00:56:10.330
can't we just encourage the
dispatchable to go use those
00:56:10.330 --> 00:56:13.360
and get them done and
go through the process,
00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:15.743
like they're already
going through the process.
00:56:17.710 --> 00:56:20.180
They gotta come
up with more money
00:56:21.420 --> 00:56:23.880
at a time when they're
already on economic
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:26.580
to get them to pay
to play to fast track...
00:56:26.580 --> 00:56:28.710
I'm sorry, I'm dropping
all kinds of things
00:56:28.710 --> 00:56:32.220
you shouldn't say, to get them
fast track through a process
00:56:32.220 --> 00:56:33.330
at a time when the federal government
00:56:33.330 --> 00:56:35.250
is paying the other guy to play.
00:56:35.250 --> 00:56:37.414
And so anyway, it's convoluted.
00:56:37.414 --> 00:56:39.570
Everybody can use a
discretionary spending agreement.
00:56:39.570 --> 00:56:42.550
Everybody can put money
in to fast track the process
00:56:42.550 --> 00:56:44.450
and it doesn't take
money out of your pocket,
00:56:44.450 --> 00:56:48.840
it accelerates right the time
of what you're spending it
00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:51.910
because these are not
dollars that you wouldn't have
00:56:51.910 --> 00:56:53.400
otherwise spent.
00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:56.810
It's fast-tracking
engineering, contractor work,
00:56:56.810 --> 00:56:58.340
other things that are required
00:56:58.340 --> 00:56:59.890
for you to interconnect anyway.
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:03.260
Apparently the economic
signals aren't there
00:57:03.260 --> 00:57:04.610
'cause it's not being used.
00:57:05.758 --> 00:57:06.660
Well, I don't know if
they're not being used.
00:57:06.660 --> 00:57:08.823
I haven't been told
one way or the other.
00:57:13.008 --> 00:57:15.070
The one that goes to
our market design, right.
00:57:15.070 --> 00:57:16.103
Partially, yeah.
00:57:17.320 --> 00:57:20.280
And so I think in the meantime,
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:23.170
until that is decided
upon and implemented,
00:57:23.170 --> 00:57:27.080
anything we can do to clear the way
00:57:27.080 --> 00:57:30.480
for dispatchable sources,
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:33.610
I think is valuable
enhancing our reliability.
00:57:33.610 --> 00:57:38.080
I am very, very, not 100%
in agreement with you.
00:57:38.080 --> 00:57:43.044
I'll go 110% agreement with
you on regulatory certainty.
00:57:43.044 --> 00:57:43.877
Yes.
00:57:45.120 --> 00:57:50.120
And ensuring that we
do not pull the rug out
00:57:51.300 --> 00:57:54.490
from under folks who
put real money to work.
00:57:54.490 --> 00:57:56.520
That's not the way this
Commission should work,
00:57:56.520 --> 00:57:57.470
it's not the way ERCOT should work,
00:57:57.470 --> 00:57:59.260
it's not the way the
state of Texas works.
00:57:59.260 --> 00:58:03.050
But I'm 110% with you on making sure
00:58:03.050 --> 00:58:04.130
that people that put money to work
00:58:04.130 --> 00:58:08.557
don't get cut off at
the knees midstream.
00:58:13.649 --> 00:58:17.190
What if a solar farm that
is number four in the queue
00:58:18.370 --> 00:58:20.120
is a 200 megawatt solar farm,
00:58:20.120 --> 00:58:23.533
and they don't have
storage associated with it.
00:58:24.370 --> 00:58:27.020
Then the solar farm
that does have storage
00:58:27.020 --> 00:58:30.330
associated with it, I'd
rather have a number three
00:58:30.330 --> 00:58:31.250
in the queue.
00:58:31.250 --> 00:58:32.940
I might be in the wrong
place on the system.
00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:34.620
I mean, that's (indistinct)
00:58:34.620 --> 00:58:35.670
Segment by segment.
00:58:36.650 --> 00:58:38.763
Well, I think my point is,
00:58:40.235 --> 00:58:43.047
I hope what I'm getting across is that
00:58:43.987 --> 00:58:46.920
there's not just one issue here,
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:48.880
there are a lot of issues that I think
00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:50.610
if we wanna grandfather things,
00:58:50.610 --> 00:58:55.090
we ought to have a bigger
discussion than just one memo
00:58:55.090 --> 00:58:59.370
and two discussions, is what I'm hoping.
00:58:59.370 --> 00:59:01.890
That would be my plea
is that we could hear
00:59:01.890 --> 00:59:06.410
from all parties, have a
bigger discussion about this
00:59:06.410 --> 00:59:09.940
and see if it doesn't
mean a hill of beans,
00:59:09.940 --> 00:59:11.050
then we'll do it.
00:59:11.050 --> 00:59:15.163
And we need dispatchable
resources, I know that.
00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:17.580
But I'm cognizant of a guy
00:59:17.580 --> 00:59:20.660
who's been in the
interconnection queue before.
00:59:20.660 --> 00:59:25.650
And not fun sitting
there deploying capital,
00:59:25.650 --> 00:59:27.320
never knowing when
you're gonna get something
00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:29.020
and then to have something be modified
00:59:29.020 --> 00:59:33.070
to say that it's gonna
be delayed even more,
00:59:33.070 --> 00:59:35.563
what happens then, your investors leave
00:59:35.563 --> 00:59:37.190
and your project goes away.
00:59:37.190 --> 00:59:38.950
And that's not a good cycle,
00:59:38.950 --> 00:59:43.950
it's not a good signal to
send to the capital markets.
00:59:44.270 --> 00:59:45.387
Sure, but...
00:59:46.250 --> 00:59:50.183
Agreed and on the other
side of that coin though,
00:59:53.110 --> 00:59:56.180
we need to have some
signal or some mechanism
00:59:56.180 --> 00:59:59.680
so that the investor
that's willing to associate
00:59:59.680 --> 01:00:03.290
their intermittent resource
with storage and dispatchability
01:00:03.290 --> 01:00:07.080
is rewarded for that
additional investment
01:00:08.060 --> 01:00:10.113
outside of crisis pricing.
01:00:12.040 --> 01:00:13.990
The question
that I don't know is,
01:00:13.990 --> 01:00:17.810
could they say to a
transmission service provider,
01:00:17.810 --> 01:00:20.467
look, "I'll fully fund my discretionary
01:00:20.467 --> 01:00:21.937
"spending account now."
01:00:22.900 --> 01:00:26.423
And then they go and do it
under existing rules today.
01:00:27.400 --> 01:00:29.220
Very fair question.
01:00:29.220 --> 01:00:31.630
And per your earlier suggestion,
01:00:31.630 --> 01:00:36.140
would you to be willing
to work on ironing out
01:00:36.140 --> 01:00:38.493
those details, but on the grandfather,
01:00:39.885 --> 01:00:43.260
grandfathering provision and clarifying
01:00:43.260 --> 01:00:46.300
what exactly that looks like?
01:00:46.300 --> 01:00:48.720
So we can ensure investment capital
01:00:48.720 --> 01:00:53.720
that has been deployed
is, that it's mandate
01:00:53.820 --> 01:00:58.000
is respected and it's initial course
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:00.210
that was charted can be implemented
01:01:00.210 --> 01:01:05.210
while also building off of
Commissioner McAdams memo
01:01:06.210 --> 01:01:10.370
a framework to signal and incentivize
01:01:10.370 --> 01:01:13.914
and enable folks,
investors who are willing
01:01:13.914 --> 01:01:16.563
to invest in dispatchable storage.
01:01:18.590 --> 01:01:21.010
Build on the principles
he's laid out here
01:01:21.010 --> 01:01:22.453
to find a way to do that.
01:01:23.987 --> 01:01:25.750
These to be the interconnect here.
01:01:25.750 --> 01:01:27.760
If Commissioner
McAdams is willing to do that,
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:29.260
I would be glad to do that, absolutely.
01:01:29.260 --> 01:01:31.600
I am absolutely happy to do it
01:01:31.600 --> 01:01:33.663
and we'll continue to work on it.
01:01:34.530 --> 01:01:38.890
I will say there has
to be a line in the sand
01:01:38.890 --> 01:01:43.890
and we have gigawatts of power
01:01:44.210 --> 01:01:47.580
that are bearing down on our
system in the next two years
01:01:47.580 --> 01:01:50.970
that will have real
reliability consequences.
01:01:50.970 --> 01:01:54.083
And this Commission again,
01:01:55.122 --> 01:01:56.260
and this is good, I enjoy this.
01:01:56.260 --> 01:01:57.820
I mean, this is good
debate, good discussion
01:01:57.820 --> 01:01:59.360
and we will work out the details.
01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:02.450
And it'll be for the
best of our resources
01:02:02.450 --> 01:02:03.290
one way or another.
01:02:03.290 --> 01:02:06.160
But, if there's no give,
01:02:06.160 --> 01:02:10.530
from the intermittent
only community on this.
01:02:10.530 --> 01:02:12.980
If there has to be a
fight, let it begin here.
01:02:12.980 --> 01:02:16.710
And because we've got
to get some dispatchability
01:02:16.710 --> 01:02:18.560
co-located with these projects,
01:02:18.560 --> 01:02:20.590
and they must understand that,
01:02:20.590 --> 01:02:23.603
and their economics
have to start working out.
01:02:24.650 --> 01:02:26.890
Because there's just too
much anecdotal evidence
01:02:26.890 --> 01:02:29.043
to the contrary that it does.
01:02:29.990 --> 01:02:32.140
But I look forward to
working with you on it.
01:02:32.140 --> 01:02:33.780
We'll find a good place.
01:02:33.780 --> 01:02:34.981
Thank you.
01:02:34.981 --> 01:02:35.950
Yes, sir.
01:02:35.950 --> 01:02:37.350
Alright, thank you, Woody.
01:02:38.520 --> 01:02:40.210
We also on this item,
01:02:40.210 --> 01:02:45.210
have a motion filed
by staff regarding ERS.
01:02:50.230 --> 01:02:54.010
The motion is seeking
good cause exception
01:02:54.010 --> 01:02:59.010
allowing ERCOT to deploy
ERS before the EA declaration,
01:02:59.140 --> 01:03:02.190
rather than waiting until we
are in the emergency situation
01:03:02.190 --> 01:03:05.863
to utilize the load resources
that we have paid for.
01:03:07.640 --> 01:03:10.203
I'm sure staff is available
for comments if needed,
01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:14.570
but at this point I'll
open up for thoughts.
01:03:14.570 --> 01:03:17.160
And this is a topic we've discussed
01:03:17.160 --> 01:03:19.860
extensively in our various work sessions
01:03:19.860 --> 01:03:22.667
and open meetings that
open up their thoughts
01:03:22.667 --> 01:03:23.593
and comments.
01:03:25.028 --> 01:03:25.861
(speakers talking over each other)
01:03:25.861 --> 01:03:26.694
It says a lot.
01:03:26.694 --> 01:03:27.527
Good thought.
01:03:28.410 --> 01:03:31.263
Well, first of all, thank
you for laying that out.
01:03:32.713 --> 01:03:35.020
This is a concept and I
have to give some credit
01:03:35.020 --> 01:03:35.910
to Commissioner McAdams.
01:03:35.910 --> 01:03:39.810
He's been putting ERS on
the table for a few months now.
01:03:39.810 --> 01:03:42.743
And so in various memos,
01:03:43.630 --> 01:03:48.630
but after our market design
workshop session that we had,
01:03:48.970 --> 01:03:51.380
not the last one, but the prior one,
01:03:51.380 --> 01:03:54.130
ERCOT highlighted that
there is some (indistinct)
01:03:54.130 --> 01:03:56.610
with the emergency
response service program
01:03:56.610 --> 01:03:57.560
that they run.
01:03:57.560 --> 01:04:02.270
And so as I was looking
for additional near term
01:04:02.270 --> 01:04:05.490
and short term, mid-term
and long-term solutions,
01:04:05.490 --> 01:04:09.170
I zoomed in on what can
we do with the ERS right now
01:04:10.570 --> 01:04:13.900
to help add it as an
additional tool to our toolbox
01:04:13.900 --> 01:04:16.090
or arsenal of actions that we can have
01:04:16.090 --> 01:04:19.023
in place and can take, rather,
01:04:20.265 --> 01:04:22.060
for this upcoming winter season.
01:04:22.060 --> 01:04:25.640
And so I had conversations with ERCOT,
01:04:25.640 --> 01:04:27.240
and really just for the public,
01:04:27.240 --> 01:04:28.460
just to explain once again,
01:04:28.460 --> 01:04:30.840
'cause I think this is important.
01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:34.160
ERCOT emergency response
service program pays load
01:04:34.160 --> 01:04:38.070
and generation resources to
reduce demand on the system
01:04:38.070 --> 01:04:40.210
during emergency events.
01:04:40.210 --> 01:04:43.260
So, in a continued effort to move away
01:04:43.260 --> 01:04:46.530
from a crisis based
operation of the market,
01:04:46.530 --> 01:04:49.960
I had recommended or brought
up as a point of discussion
01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:52.350
last week's work session
that the Commission
01:04:52.350 --> 01:04:54.830
considered directing
ERCOT to add more money
01:04:54.830 --> 01:04:57.820
to the upcoming winter contract period.
01:04:57.820 --> 01:05:00.463
which covers December,
January and February.
01:05:01.387 --> 01:05:06.244
And also consider granting
a good cause waiver,
01:05:06.244 --> 01:05:07.760
a good cause exception to our rules.
01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:09.610
To allow ERCOT, to deploy ERS
01:05:09.610 --> 01:05:12.880
earlier than an emergency event
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:14.260
to help ensure reliability
01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:16.480
during this upcoming winter season.
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:20.240
And so the feedback
that we got from ERCOT,
01:05:20.240 --> 01:05:23.820
was that they would
need to modify their RFP
01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:26.120
before November eighth, to:
01:05:26.120 --> 01:05:28.373
One, add more money and two,
01:05:30.607 --> 01:05:33.880
to allow to basically use ERS
01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:35.663
outside of emergency event earlier.
01:05:36.680 --> 01:05:39.910
So with that being said,
01:05:39.910 --> 01:05:42.070
and thank you staff for drafting
01:05:42.070 --> 01:05:43.933
the good cause exception order.
01:05:45.270 --> 01:05:47.350
Kenan Ogelman is here with ERCOT.
01:05:47.350 --> 01:05:50.260
And I think there's
one sort of clarification
01:05:50.260 --> 01:05:55.260
that I would like to
give ERCOT and Kenan
01:05:55.660 --> 01:05:57.363
about their deployment of ERS.
01:05:59.010 --> 01:05:59.960
I think there was a question,
01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:02.530
I think their good cause order says,
01:06:02.530 --> 01:06:04.760
may deploy before emergency event.
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:08.240
And I think Kenan or ERCOT's intention
01:06:08.240 --> 01:06:13.240
would be to add will
deploy to their RFP,
01:06:13.290 --> 01:06:15.930
the ERS contracts into
the technical documents.
01:06:15.930 --> 01:06:18.920
And so, I wanna make sure
we give that clarification now
01:06:18.920 --> 01:06:22.290
to Kenan and ERCOT so that they can use
01:06:23.889 --> 01:06:28.889
our desired approach in those
three, I guess, documents.
01:06:30.770 --> 01:06:31.603
Yep.
01:06:31.603 --> 01:06:32.436
Well-put.
01:06:33.780 --> 01:06:34.670
What's your name?
01:06:34.670 --> 01:06:36.043
Kenan Ogelman with ERCOT,
01:06:39.330 --> 01:06:44.330
We don't, I mean, we think
that the proposed order,
01:06:45.070 --> 01:06:47.570
or good cause exception would work,
01:06:47.570 --> 01:06:50.990
but I did wanna clarify with y'all
01:06:50.990 --> 01:06:52.690
how we would implement that.
01:06:52.690 --> 01:06:55.130
Which would be that we would implement
01:06:58.020 --> 01:07:02.430
deployment of ERS prior to EEA1
01:07:03.270 --> 01:07:07.170
in order to not enter EEA1 hopefully.
01:07:07.170 --> 01:07:11.980
That was my takeaway
from what y'all had discussed.
01:07:11.980 --> 01:07:15.170
Nothing in the proposed
good cause exception
01:07:15.170 --> 01:07:17.240
prohibits us from doing that.
01:07:17.240 --> 01:07:22.240
But, as we work some
protocol changes through,
01:07:23.553 --> 01:07:27.293
I just wanted to make sure
I read the room correctly.
01:07:28.990 --> 01:07:32.363
And then there was one
other point I did wanna make.
01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:38.320
There was also discussion
around in an increase in budget.
01:07:38.710 --> 01:07:43.710
And I'm curious if there
might need to be some way
01:07:43.740 --> 01:07:47.750
to get the Commission's feedback
01:07:47.750 --> 01:07:50.950
on how much that increase should be.
01:07:50.950 --> 01:07:53.840
Because, if for example,
01:07:53.840 --> 01:07:57.860
I were to increase the
winter budget by 20 million,
01:07:57.860 --> 01:08:00.360
but you only ultimately
wanted to increase
01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:02.430
the overall budget by five.
01:08:02.430 --> 01:08:07.430
I would be shorting the
summer and so forth.
01:08:07.490 --> 01:08:11.330
And then the last point
that Woody will beat me up
01:08:12.466 --> 01:08:15.060
if I don't make this
is, we can, I think,
01:08:15.060 --> 01:08:19.730
get everything done in
a pretty judicious manner
01:08:19.730 --> 01:08:24.700
in terms of the RFP and
issuing other binding documents.
01:08:24.700 --> 01:08:28.020
But there is an operator
training element to this
01:08:28.020 --> 01:08:30.570
that we would also have to incorporate.
01:08:30.570 --> 01:08:33.870
And that might take
a little bit of time.
01:08:33.870 --> 01:08:36.810
We can help you
get that all laid out
01:08:36.810 --> 01:08:40.383
and moving down the tracks
as expeditiously as possible.
01:08:41.670 --> 01:08:45.090
One high-level point of
clarification I wanna make
01:08:45.090 --> 01:08:48.210
is that I think that while
the good cause exception
01:08:48.210 --> 01:08:50.760
is the language is relatively broad,
01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:53.650
in no way do I think are
we intending to adjust
01:08:53.650 --> 01:08:55.130
existing ERS contracts?
01:08:55.130 --> 01:08:57.110
We're gonna honor
the existing contracts.
01:08:57.110 --> 01:08:58.330
That's correct.
01:08:58.330 --> 01:08:59.163
They're in place.
01:08:59.163 --> 01:09:01.693
This would be a going forward effort
01:09:03.650 --> 01:09:06.270
for the new contracts for
the next season of ERS.
01:09:06.270 --> 01:09:08.560
So just want to clarify
that we're not trying
01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:10.180
to retrade contracts.
01:09:10.180 --> 01:09:15.180
On your question of
when it would be deployed
01:09:16.220 --> 01:09:21.220
before EEA is like what you said,
01:09:21.270 --> 01:09:22.180
I'd move that,
01:09:22.180 --> 01:09:23.860
I welcome the comments from others.
01:09:23.860 --> 01:09:25.500
I'd move that up even more
01:09:26.520 --> 01:09:31.520
because I certainly don't
want to be asking Texans
01:09:31.810 --> 01:09:33.460
to turn down the lights in their homes
01:09:33.460 --> 01:09:36.360
and businesses and
throttle down their lives
01:09:36.360 --> 01:09:38.790
before we've deployed
the demand response
01:09:38.790 --> 01:09:40.283
that's already been paid for.
01:09:43.130 --> 01:09:45.820
That seems very
straightforward to me, but...
01:09:45.820 --> 01:09:46.670
Absolutely
01:09:46.670 --> 01:09:48.380
To meet the
non-negotiable policy
01:09:48.380 --> 01:09:49.530
that the Commissioners,
01:09:52.300 --> 01:09:54.240
has seemed to establish consensus on
01:09:54.240 --> 01:09:57.133
is EEA needs to be deployed before EEA1.
01:09:58.280 --> 01:09:59.113
ERS
01:09:59.113 --> 01:10:00.338
I'm sorry.
01:10:00.338 --> 01:10:02.070
ERS needs to be deployed before EEA1.
01:10:02.070 --> 01:10:03.083
What did I just say?
01:10:03.083 --> 01:10:04.166
I don't know, it's been a long day.
01:10:04.166 --> 01:10:04.999
It's before the EEA.
01:10:04.999 --> 01:10:06.530
No, before EEA1.
01:10:06.530 --> 01:10:10.400
Thus with the stated
objective of preventing
01:10:10.400 --> 01:10:12.623
having to go into a conservation.
01:10:14.190 --> 01:10:19.190
Now, should ERCOT be
granted the flexibility to do that
01:10:23.660 --> 01:10:26.840
and the MCL thing
that which is kind of tied
01:10:26.840 --> 01:10:29.580
is still kind of moving
pending the studies.
01:10:29.580 --> 01:10:32.960
So at this time I would
suggest allowing them
01:10:32.960 --> 01:10:36.460
the flexibility to deploy before EEA1
01:10:36.460 --> 01:10:39.990
and use the technical and administrative
01:10:39.990 --> 01:10:43.626
discretion to deploy that,
and just give them guidance.
01:10:43.626 --> 01:10:46.226
With the stated goal of
do not go into conservation.
01:10:47.347 --> 01:10:48.535
Sure, absolutely.
01:10:48.535 --> 01:10:51.120
And that's what they're
trying to solve for with ERS.
01:10:51.120 --> 01:10:53.480
I'm happy to defer
operational decision-making
01:10:53.480 --> 01:10:56.640
to the operators on the ground,
01:10:56.640 --> 01:10:59.560
but in no uncertain
terms do I wanna hear
01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:03.150
that we need to ask regular
Texans to turn down their homes
01:11:03.150 --> 01:11:05.920
and businesses before we
fully deployed that resource.
01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:07.840
Where are you, actually...
01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:11.973
What number PRC is
deployed, I'll leave it to y'all,
01:11:14.050 --> 01:11:15.920
but I wanna make that clear.
01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:18.450
We need to use the demand
response load resources
01:11:18.450 --> 01:11:20.820
we've already paid for
before we start asking
01:11:20.820 --> 01:11:23.750
25 million people to
change the way they run
01:11:23.750 --> 01:11:25.390
their daily lives.
01:11:25.390 --> 01:11:26.680
Does that work?
01:11:26.680 --> 01:11:27.520
Absolutely.
Yes.
01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:28.353
Absolutely.
01:11:28.353 --> 01:11:31.700
And with respect to the amount,
01:11:31.700 --> 01:11:33.490
the additional amount that we would add
01:11:33.490 --> 01:11:36.680
to the winter contract period, if I may,
01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:39.920
I would suggest that
maybe ERCOT come back
01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:41.970
to Commission staff with three options
01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:44.710
and dollar figures that we can assess
01:11:44.710 --> 01:11:47.400
and then work with
ERCOT off line to determine
01:11:47.400 --> 01:11:49.750
what is that right balance
of additional money
01:11:49.750 --> 01:11:52.030
we wanna add to the
winter contract period
01:11:52.030 --> 01:11:56.760
to try to get more resources
and or pay for the resources
01:11:56.760 --> 01:11:59.000
that we're gonna be asking
to deploy a little bit earlier,
01:11:59.000 --> 01:12:00.850
that might cost a little bit more money
01:12:00.850 --> 01:12:03.160
and in balance with the
rest of the contract periods
01:12:03.160 --> 01:12:04.920
in 2022, especially the summer.
01:12:04.920 --> 01:12:06.740
So I wanna strike that balance.
01:12:06.740 --> 01:12:09.550
And I think if you can bring
back at least three options
01:12:09.550 --> 01:12:13.080
for staff to review, we can
give you feedback offline
01:12:13.080 --> 01:12:16.005
as to what that appropriate
amount would be.
01:12:16.005 --> 01:12:16.838
that appropriate amount would be.
01:12:16.838 --> 01:12:19.020
Or perhaps we could
include it in the conversation
01:12:19.020 --> 01:12:20.863
for a work session next week.
01:12:21.980 --> 01:12:23.022
next week.
01:12:23.022 --> 01:12:23.855
Sure.
01:12:26.552 --> 01:12:27.901
I believe we can
meet that as well.
01:12:27.901 --> 01:12:28.734
I think we can turn something around
01:12:28.734 --> 01:12:29.567
By next Thursday, okay.
01:12:29.567 --> 01:12:31.333
Yeah, sounds good.
01:12:33.420 --> 01:12:34.747
Yea, sounds good.
01:12:36.560 --> 01:12:39.270
All right, is there
anything else,
01:12:39.270 --> 01:12:42.150
any other questions you
need answered from us?
01:12:42.150 --> 01:12:45.152
No, I think I'm
just wanted to...
01:12:45.152 --> 01:12:46.050
I didn't wanna take you by surprise
01:12:46.050 --> 01:12:51.050
when we were going to
clearly in the RFP state
01:12:51.390 --> 01:12:54.990
that it was gonna happen at a PRC level
01:12:54.990 --> 01:12:56.653
in advance of the EEA1.
01:12:57.680 --> 01:13:00.290
That was definitely
what my takeaway was,
01:13:00.290 --> 01:13:03.840
but just wanted to make that confirmed.
01:13:03.840 --> 01:13:04.673
Absolutely.
01:13:04.673 --> 01:13:09.530
And as always, we will
continue to utilize all of the tools
01:13:11.040 --> 01:13:15.380
available to us, including
a conservation notice,
01:13:15.380 --> 01:13:17.090
hopefully not,
01:13:17.090 --> 01:13:19.900
but it's this standard
reminder that we'll use
01:13:19.900 --> 01:13:21.310
all tools available to us,
01:13:21.310 --> 01:13:23.330
ERS being one that
we would prefer to use
01:13:23.330 --> 01:13:25.360
before conservation notice.
01:13:25.360 --> 01:13:26.193
Understood.
01:13:27.050 --> 01:13:30.670
One just question
something to consider,
01:13:30.670 --> 01:13:34.040
given the fact that
ERCOT is gonna insert
01:13:34.040 --> 01:13:37.700
that they will deploy ERS before EEA1
01:13:37.700 --> 01:13:41.330
in their RFP contracts
for the winter period
01:13:41.330 --> 01:13:42.370
and technical documents.
01:13:42.370 --> 01:13:44.630
Is it makes sense to modify our order
01:13:44.630 --> 01:13:46.420
to change it from may to will.
01:13:51.800 --> 01:13:54.510
I don't know that it
makes a difference.
01:13:54.510 --> 01:13:57.490
I'll defer to Commission council on...
01:13:59.037 --> 01:14:00.330
So I take our order
off of this motion
01:14:00.330 --> 01:14:02.950
is simply waiving the
requirement of the rule
01:14:02.950 --> 01:14:06.380
that requires you to wait
until EEA1 has been declared.
01:14:06.380 --> 01:14:09.660
We're not giving you
any further guidance,
01:14:09.660 --> 01:14:11.230
We're removing a restriction
not providing direction.
01:14:11.230 --> 01:14:12.323
We are removing a restriction
01:14:12.323 --> 01:14:16.990
and that's the good cause
waiver that this motion is.
01:14:16.990 --> 01:14:18.660
Which grants
maximum flexibility.
01:14:18.660 --> 01:14:21.950
Yes, the direction you just
given to ERCOT they've heard
01:14:21.950 --> 01:14:24.380
and it sounds like
that's their intended plan
01:14:24.380 --> 01:14:25.213
moving forward.
01:14:25.213 --> 01:14:26.680
Okay, I just
wanted to ask to see
01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:28.330
if there was any appetite for doing that
01:14:28.330 --> 01:14:29.163
and what the bounds were.
01:14:29.163 --> 01:14:29.996
worked.
01:14:31.360 --> 01:14:34.600
Commissioners, the
language of staff's motion
01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:36.890
includes the word may specifically
01:14:36.890 --> 01:14:40.691
for the reason that you just
discussed with Mr. Junae.
01:14:40.691 --> 01:14:44.410
that you just discussed
with Mr. Journey.
01:14:44.410 --> 01:14:47.553
That we believe it
would be your intention
01:14:47.553 --> 01:14:51.642
and expert discretion regarding
when exactly to employ.
01:14:51.642 --> 01:14:53.142
exactly to employ.
01:14:54.921 --> 01:14:57.361
So you're removing the, excuse me,
01:14:57.361 --> 01:14:58.942
you're removing the restriction.
01:14:58.942 --> 01:14:59.828
It works for me, works for y'all.
01:14:59.828 --> 01:15:01.459
Yes.
Great.
01:15:01.459 --> 01:15:02.292
Yes.
01:15:02.292 --> 01:15:03.507
In that case, the...
01:15:05.331 --> 01:15:06.914
In that case, the..
01:15:08.788 --> 01:15:09.740
I will move to grant the
good cause exception.
01:15:09.740 --> 01:15:11.240
Second.
Second
01:15:12.630 --> 01:15:14.457
Two seconds, outstanding.
01:15:14.457 --> 01:15:15.290
(Laughing)
01:15:15.290 --> 01:15:16.777
All in favor.
01:15:16.777 --> 01:15:19.453
[Commissioners Together] Aye.
01:15:19.453 --> 01:15:22.320
None opposed,
the motion passes.
01:15:22.320 --> 01:15:25.333
I don't have anything on item 25.
01:15:25.333 --> 01:15:26.166
Do y'all?
01:15:27.080 --> 01:15:30.333
No, but I did have something
on 26, just a brief update.
01:15:32.650 --> 01:15:33.510
Tiny brief update.
01:15:33.510 --> 01:15:35.071
Lets go to 26 then.
01:15:35.071 --> 01:15:35.904
(Laughing)
01:15:35.904 --> 01:15:37.670
Oh, I'm sorry, did I do...
01:15:37.670 --> 01:15:38.510
Did I jump around?
01:15:38.510 --> 01:15:39.570
I'm sorry.
01:15:39.570 --> 01:15:42.100
We're all down moving
the train down the trucks.
01:15:42.100 --> 01:15:42.933
Oh, I'm sorry.
01:15:42.933 --> 01:15:44.030
Yes, I skipped a few.
01:15:44.030 --> 01:15:45.486
Sorry.
01:15:45.486 --> 01:15:47.640
Okay, so a few open meetings ago,
01:15:47.640 --> 01:15:51.650
I brought up some MISO related matters,
01:15:51.650 --> 01:15:53.770
and that was that
MISO's currently looking
01:15:53.770 --> 01:15:56.500
at long range transmission planning.
01:15:56.500 --> 01:15:58.370
And in that analysis,
01:15:58.370 --> 01:16:01.743
they are looking to
have cost allocation,
01:16:02.730 --> 01:16:06.860
separate cost allocation
for MISO North Central
01:16:06.860 --> 01:16:09.960
region and a MISO South region.
01:16:09.960 --> 01:16:12.030
So the cost allocation
they're looking at right now
01:16:12.030 --> 01:16:15.050
is separate for the two
pods, the two regions.
01:16:15.050 --> 01:16:19.090
But recently MISO has stated
01:16:19.090 --> 01:16:22.110
that there could be
situations that would trigger
01:16:23.340 --> 01:16:27.270
footprint wide
transmission cost allocation
01:16:27.270 --> 01:16:32.270
and with our Southeast
Texas rate payers.
01:16:32.850 --> 01:16:36.350
And introduce, (indistinct)
Texas service territory,
01:16:36.350 --> 01:16:39.570
or a tiny pod of that
big MISO footprint.
01:16:39.570 --> 01:16:43.580
So to use a phrase that
Commissioner McAdams likes to use,
01:16:43.580 --> 01:16:47.700
I started setting the table with MISO,
01:16:49.690 --> 01:16:54.650
and letting them know that
sending them the message
01:16:54.650 --> 01:16:56.460
that Texas would be strongly opposed
01:16:56.460 --> 01:16:59.413
to the use of a MISO
footprint wide posted stamp
01:16:59.413 --> 01:17:02.120
cost allocation for transmission.
01:17:02.120 --> 01:17:04.100
Texas will not pay
for transmission build
01:17:04.100 --> 01:17:05.750
out in MISO North Central region,
01:17:05.750 --> 01:17:09.110
if Texas rate payers do
not receive a direct benefit
01:17:09.110 --> 01:17:11.003
from that transmission build out.
01:17:12.810 --> 01:17:15.460
And so I think it would
be a very high hurdle.
01:17:15.460 --> 01:17:17.690
And what I'm saying
and what I mean by this
01:17:17.690 --> 01:17:20.260
is that, as I said, you know,
01:17:20.260 --> 01:17:23.210
very small swath of Texas is in MISO.
01:17:23.210 --> 01:17:25.330
And if MISO ultimately decides
01:17:25.330 --> 01:17:28.970
to integrate the
entire footprint and use
01:17:30.985 --> 01:17:33.110
one cost allocation methodology,
01:17:33.110 --> 01:17:36.860
transmission, postage
stamp costs allocation
01:17:36.860 --> 01:17:40.523
as is currently done in
ERCOT for the entire footprint,
01:17:41.724 --> 01:17:43.410
that we're gonna have a high hurdle
01:17:43.410 --> 01:17:46.120
for Texas rate payers in Southeast Texas
01:17:46.120 --> 01:17:48.213
to be paying for transmission up north.
01:17:49.330 --> 01:17:52.150
So I just started setting the table.
01:17:52.150 --> 01:17:54.570
I know that some of
our peer in the Southeast
01:17:54.570 --> 01:17:57.030
have said even stronger words.
01:17:57.030 --> 01:17:58.840
But, about...
01:17:58.840 --> 01:18:00.290
There are other folks who
aren't happy about it either.
01:18:00.290 --> 01:18:02.433
Yes, like Louisiana
and Mississippi.
01:18:03.418 --> 01:18:06.440
And so, I just wanna
start kind of laying,
01:18:06.440 --> 01:18:09.540
I want, one, to notify
y'all of kind of this issue
01:18:09.540 --> 01:18:12.310
that came up and you
might've seen it in SBP2 as well.
01:18:12.310 --> 01:18:13.550
Commissioner McAdams,
01:18:13.550 --> 01:18:16.500
but just to notify you
and to let you know
01:18:16.500 --> 01:18:20.370
that I'm being mindful
of the Texas rate payers
01:18:20.370 --> 01:18:22.180
in Southeast Texas at this time.
01:18:22.180 --> 01:18:24.160
I'm taking them into consideration
01:18:24.160 --> 01:18:26.460
and keeping them in mind is if MISO
01:18:26.460 --> 01:18:28.930
starts moving in that direction.
01:18:28.930 --> 01:18:30.177
Yeah.
01:18:30.177 --> 01:18:34.010
And to echo Commissioner
Cobos comments on MISO.
01:18:34.010 --> 01:18:39.010
SBP has the issues faced in
both regions are very similar.
01:18:40.710 --> 01:18:44.390
The electoral dynamic on decision-making
01:18:44.390 --> 01:18:49.390
is somewhat less volatile
in terms of making a decision
01:18:50.780 --> 01:18:51.670
on the topic.
01:18:51.670 --> 01:18:54.090
It's more entrenched at the moment,
01:18:54.090 --> 01:18:57.570
but it's certainly similar
in terms of those Southern
01:18:57.570 --> 01:19:02.570
more load sensitive states
versus the resource states
01:19:02.570 --> 01:19:03.720
in the Western regions.
01:19:06.698 --> 01:19:08.810
I appreciate you
bringing that to our attention
01:19:08.810 --> 01:19:10.543
and certainly share your concern.
01:19:11.709 --> 01:19:13.020
Please keep us updated as that develops.
01:19:13.020 --> 01:19:16.170
And I suspect since we're talking
01:19:16.170 --> 01:19:19.310
about Southeast Texas and another ISO,
01:19:19.310 --> 01:19:20.820
I suspect Commissioner Glotfelty
01:19:20.820 --> 01:19:22.210
has got a few thoughts on that.
01:19:22.210 --> 01:19:27.210
Well, I appreciate the
efforts in these other regions.
01:19:28.490 --> 01:19:30.837
We still represent those Texans as well.
01:19:30.837 --> 01:19:33.240
So I think it's important.
01:19:33.240 --> 01:19:35.240
To that end again,
01:19:35.240 --> 01:19:39.440
a few meetings ago when we discussed
01:19:39.440 --> 01:19:43.480
a transitioned to competition
payment for energy.
01:19:43.480 --> 01:19:48.480
I had brought up that maybe
we should have looked at,
01:19:50.300 --> 01:19:52.533
if there's a need for
competition down there,
01:19:53.650 --> 01:19:56.310
we oughta hear from
folks who want competition
01:19:56.310 --> 01:19:57.720
down there.
01:19:57.720 --> 01:19:59.050
So to that end,
01:19:59.050 --> 01:20:01.380
I just want to announce
that we've opened
01:20:01.380 --> 01:20:05.580
a project number 52760
for interested stakeholders
01:20:05.580 --> 01:20:08.780
to file comments based on the discussion
01:20:08.780 --> 01:20:10.040
that we had October 7th
01:20:10.040 --> 01:20:13.030
relating to competition and
entered the service territory,
01:20:13.030 --> 01:20:15.460
as well as all other non-ERCOT areas.
01:20:15.460 --> 01:20:20.220
So we'll have that docket opened and--
01:20:20.220 --> 01:20:21.800
Except for the far west.
01:20:21.800 --> 01:20:23.920
Except for the
far west, correct.
01:20:23.920 --> 01:20:27.570
And we'll be able to get input
01:20:27.570 --> 01:20:30.080
and help guide us as we look
01:20:31.310 --> 01:20:33.560
to see if there's is
something we need to do.
01:20:36.220 --> 01:20:37.230
Commissioner,
what was the thinking
01:20:37.230 --> 01:20:41.335
on leaving out the far west on that?
01:20:41.335 --> 01:20:43.840
What was the policy kind
of a lining the sand on that?
01:20:45.580 --> 01:20:49.780
Well, I would put them
all in there the far west.
01:20:54.690 --> 01:20:58.700
I dunno, Mr. Junae,
what I agreed with you
01:20:58.700 --> 01:21:01.650
pretty quickly, but I
didn't really think about it.
01:21:01.650 --> 01:21:04.531
I thought I was
following directions, sir.
01:21:04.531 --> 01:21:05.980
(laughing)
01:21:05.980 --> 01:21:07.180
How about we say this?
01:21:08.650 --> 01:21:10.430
How about we redo this?
01:21:10.430 --> 01:21:11.510
In any of the regions
01:21:13.580 --> 01:21:14.750
let's have folks file,
01:21:14.750 --> 01:21:18.560
and if we end up getting many comments
01:21:18.560 --> 01:21:20.510
into specific areas
01:21:20.510 --> 01:21:23.240
we can bifurcate those
into separate regions
01:21:23.240 --> 01:21:25.260
and have separate proceedings on those.
01:21:25.260 --> 01:21:27.930
But we could think about all of them.
01:21:27.930 --> 01:21:29.090
So thank you for bringing that up.
01:21:29.090 --> 01:21:30.050
Absolutely, sir.
01:21:30.050 --> 01:21:33.550
And so just to recap your
vision for this proceeding
01:21:33.550 --> 01:21:38.350
is to simply act as a
repository for public petition
01:21:39.590 --> 01:21:44.590
and interest, and to
make their interests known
01:21:46.750 --> 01:21:49.210
that competition may
be good for their region,
01:21:49.210 --> 01:21:50.980
but with no preordained...
01:21:50.980 --> 01:21:54.030
And again, just to clarify,
we're not reinitiating
01:21:54.030 --> 01:21:56.470
with the proceeding
like any studies or again,
01:21:56.470 --> 01:21:59.350
not another $200 million
project to study integration
01:21:59.350 --> 01:22:00.683
or anything like that.
01:22:03.000 --> 01:22:03.980
To answer your question.
01:22:03.980 --> 01:22:07.600
I think the chairman on
October 7th said it right,
01:22:07.600 --> 01:22:10.390
which is if you want it,
we should hear from you.
01:22:10.390 --> 01:22:12.340
And this is a method to hear from them.
01:22:14.250 --> 01:22:15.740
And thank you for
asking that question,
01:22:15.740 --> 01:22:16.573
Commissioner McAdams.
01:22:16.573 --> 01:22:17.880
That was gonna be my question
01:22:18.760 --> 01:22:21.183
just in process, what
the project was about.
01:22:23.160 --> 01:22:28.160
Certainly we have four
utilities in the edges of Texas
01:22:29.040 --> 01:22:33.580
that are thriving and
serving important customers
01:22:33.580 --> 01:22:34.723
out there as well.
01:22:36.400 --> 01:22:39.730
The only thing I wanna
say that, you know,
01:22:39.730 --> 01:22:41.380
and I think Commissioner McAdams'
01:22:42.339 --> 01:22:43.172
kind of clarifying questions
01:22:43.172 --> 01:22:45.220
might help alleviate
those concerns out there
01:22:45.220 --> 01:22:48.110
with respect to what is
the goal of this project.
01:22:48.110 --> 01:22:49.483
Are there any next steps?
01:22:50.580 --> 01:22:55.580
So we have the non-ERCOT
utilities that come in here
01:22:55.930 --> 01:23:00.930
from time to time and file
CCNs for generation plans
01:23:01.060 --> 01:23:02.513
and other infrastructure.
01:23:04.080 --> 01:23:07.460
I wanna be mindful and really stress.
01:23:07.460 --> 01:23:10.460
This is an opportunity
for stakeholders out there
01:23:11.570 --> 01:23:12.730
to voice concerns.
01:23:12.730 --> 01:23:16.410
But I also am mindful of
the investment community
01:23:16.410 --> 01:23:17.770
that may be hearing this,
01:23:17.770 --> 01:23:22.440
that is putting up investment
dollars for big plants
01:23:22.440 --> 01:23:24.950
on the edges of Texas
that are expensive.
01:23:24.950 --> 01:23:27.847
And they may be
thinking, "Well, goodness,
01:23:27.847 --> 01:23:30.767
"is our investment gonna still hold
01:23:30.767 --> 01:23:32.757
"with a regulated rate
of return and these
01:23:32.757 --> 01:23:34.187
"vertically integrated utilities?
01:23:34.187 --> 01:23:36.947
"Or will these utilities
ultimately be put in ERCOT?"
01:23:39.453 --> 01:23:40.880
You know, it's survival
of the fittest at that point.
01:23:40.880 --> 01:23:45.880
And so that's the only
sort of cautionary footnote
01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:49.200
I wanna add on this is that, you know,
01:23:49.200 --> 01:23:51.190
we wanna make sure that those areas
01:23:52.250 --> 01:23:55.680
out in El Paso and
Amarillo and, you know,
01:23:55.680 --> 01:23:57.450
Texarkana and Beaumont,
01:23:57.450 --> 01:24:01.200
that all those corners and rate payers
01:24:01.200 --> 01:24:05.630
in those edges of Texas
still get reliable service,
01:24:05.630 --> 01:24:08.000
still get access to all the
services and infrastructure
01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:09.730
these companies are providing.
01:24:09.730 --> 01:24:11.670
And I know that they're diligent
01:24:11.670 --> 01:24:13.970
in making sure all that happens.
01:24:13.970 --> 01:24:18.060
And I just don't want for us
to send regulatory uncertainty,
01:24:18.060 --> 01:24:21.290
shockwaves that ultimately
get in the way of financing
01:24:21.290 --> 01:24:24.490
some of these big
infrastructure projects
01:24:24.490 --> 01:24:28.493
as a result of this forum.
01:24:29.360 --> 01:24:32.391
But that's just the only
thing I wanted to add.
01:24:32.391 --> 01:24:33.224
An important consideration.
01:24:33.224 --> 01:24:34.940
And I'm sure Commissioner Glotfelty,
01:24:34.940 --> 01:24:37.690
like the rest of us, will
welcome commentary from them.
01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:40.632
Those who are investing.
01:24:40.632 --> 01:24:41.715
Absolutely.
01:24:42.710 --> 01:24:44.840
I'm sure they won't be shy.
01:24:44.840 --> 01:24:45.673
I'm sure they won't.
01:24:45.673 --> 01:24:50.650
But I echo Commissioner
Cobos' concerned there.
01:24:50.650 --> 01:24:52.820
And just from my perspective
01:24:52.820 --> 01:24:54.630
for that financial community out there
01:24:54.630 --> 01:24:59.263
who invests in our
non-ERCOT areas of Texas.
01:25:00.440 --> 01:25:01.850
You still have a framework.
01:25:01.850 --> 01:25:04.530
You still have a system to invest in
01:25:04.530 --> 01:25:06.990
that provides reliable,
essential service,
01:25:06.990 --> 01:25:10.060
and that's gonna be there
in the future regardless.
01:25:10.060 --> 01:25:13.770
But again, that's why we
capture this as a repository,
01:25:13.770 --> 01:25:15.870
just for public petition,
01:25:15.870 --> 01:25:20.260
in the interest of assessing
the virtues of competition
01:25:20.260 --> 01:25:21.840
in those unique areas of Texas.
01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:24.880
And as I said before, and
as you know, and we all do,
01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:27.530
the legislature has
spoken to this several times
01:25:27.530 --> 01:25:29.910
over the past two decades
01:25:29.910 --> 01:25:32.070
and they certainly have a voice here.
01:25:32.070 --> 01:25:35.233
So before any letters start rolling in,
01:25:36.260 --> 01:25:37.250
we respect that.
01:25:37.250 --> 01:25:38.083
Well put.
01:25:39.100 --> 01:25:40.670
All right.
01:25:40.670 --> 01:25:44.060
That concludes business on item 26.
01:25:44.060 --> 01:25:47.670
I don't have anything on 27.
01:25:47.670 --> 01:25:49.190
That'll bring us to 28.
01:25:49.190 --> 01:25:51.500
Commissioner Glotfelty
filed a memo on this docket.
01:25:51.500 --> 01:25:53.230
Would you lay that out for us?
01:25:53.230 --> 01:25:55.180
I'm sorry, I'm
talking so much today.
01:25:56.091 --> 01:25:56.957
No, we're glad you--
01:25:58.480 --> 01:26:00.130
I don't like talking this much.
01:26:01.490 --> 01:26:03.776
We can put a three
minute limit on you.
01:26:03.776 --> 01:26:05.726
(laughing)
01:26:05.726 --> 01:26:06.710
That would be great.
01:26:06.710 --> 01:26:07.543
Steven.
01:26:09.930 --> 01:26:11.820
I think again, on October 7th,
01:26:11.820 --> 01:26:14.400
when Commissioner Cobos
was talking about transmission,
01:26:14.400 --> 01:26:15.620
one of the issues that I brought up
01:26:15.620 --> 01:26:18.880
was the use of new
technologies that are out there
01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:20.910
and have been utilized
across the system,
01:26:20.910 --> 01:26:23.525
across the United States
and across the world.
01:26:23.525 --> 01:26:24.358
(beeping)
01:26:24.358 --> 01:26:25.466
(laughing)
01:26:25.466 --> 01:26:26.782
Three seconds or three minutes?
01:26:26.782 --> 01:26:27.615
I'm sorry.
01:26:27.615 --> 01:26:29.303
Thank you,
Commissioner Glotfelty.
01:26:29.303 --> 01:26:30.730
Well put.
01:26:30.730 --> 01:26:31.780
Do I hear a motion?
01:26:34.600 --> 01:26:37.350
These technologies dynamic
line rating technologies
01:26:37.350 --> 01:26:39.510
are proven in the market.
01:26:39.510 --> 01:26:42.710
They're on many transmission
lines around the state.
01:26:42.710 --> 01:26:47.097
What they do is
instead of a static writing
01:26:48.770 --> 01:26:51.110
for a transmission line on throughput,
01:26:51.110 --> 01:26:53.280
how many megawatts
can go through a line?
01:26:53.280 --> 01:26:57.580
They use components that
are actually added to the system,
01:26:57.580 --> 01:27:00.580
which measure temperature, wind speed,
01:27:00.580 --> 01:27:05.300
other things that give a real-time value
01:27:05.300 --> 01:27:07.110
for the amount of megawatts
01:27:07.110 --> 01:27:09.700
that can be put through those lines.
01:27:09.700 --> 01:27:13.890
I know Encore and
others in Texas do use it
01:27:13.890 --> 01:27:14.830
on some areas.
01:27:14.830 --> 01:27:19.830
And other transmission owners
around the state use it less.
01:27:19.980 --> 01:27:24.980
And my point in this
project is to really see,
01:27:25.370 --> 01:27:26.940
is there more need for this?
01:27:26.940 --> 01:27:29.710
Is there an opportunity to utilize this
01:27:29.710 --> 01:27:34.210
as a lower-cost way to get
more megawatts to load centers?
01:27:34.210 --> 01:27:38.210
And it's not an expensive technology.
01:27:38.210 --> 01:27:39.920
It is a proven technology.
01:27:39.920 --> 01:27:41.730
So what I would suggest in the memo
01:27:41.730 --> 01:27:44.020
is that we direct staff
to open a new project
01:27:45.020 --> 01:27:47.030
that deals with dynamic line writing,
01:27:47.030 --> 01:27:50.460
specifically as that
technology and that we direct
01:27:50.460 --> 01:27:54.930
the TDUs in ERCOT to
answer a series of questions
01:27:54.930 --> 01:27:58.150
about their use, not only the positives,
01:27:58.150 --> 01:28:00.560
but the negatives of
these technologies as well.
01:28:00.560 --> 01:28:04.410
I think we need to have
a fair understanding
01:28:04.410 --> 01:28:07.853
of if there are pros to this
and if there are cons to this.
01:28:09.573 --> 01:28:12.050
But it is a technology
that's utilized across the U.S.
01:28:12.050 --> 01:28:13.160
and across the world
01:28:13.160 --> 01:28:15.243
and could have some value here in ERCOT.
01:28:19.320 --> 01:28:20.373
A little more
than three minutes.
01:28:20.373 --> 01:28:21.206
But that's okay.
01:28:21.206 --> 01:28:22.520
However, my three minutes.
01:28:24.070 --> 01:28:27.370
Nicely put, certainly,
if we know anything,
01:28:27.370 --> 01:28:29.870
we know there's room for
improvement in this realm
01:28:31.240 --> 01:28:35.253
and an opportunity to enhance
the resources we've got.
01:28:36.120 --> 01:28:39.040
Certainly, support the
notion of opening a project
01:28:39.040 --> 01:28:42.400
and directing that
segment of our stakeholders
01:28:42.400 --> 01:28:44.033
to provide pros, cons,
01:28:45.250 --> 01:28:50.250
and any more specific
questions you'd want,
01:28:51.000 --> 01:28:52.920
or any of us would wanna include.
01:28:52.920 --> 01:28:55.810
Yeah, I would say that in my...
01:28:55.810 --> 01:28:57.030
I've listed 10 questions,
01:28:57.030 --> 01:28:59.243
but I would surely be
open to other questions
01:28:59.243 --> 01:29:01.420
that other Commissioners would have
01:29:01.420 --> 01:29:03.690
if we want to add other things to that,
01:29:03.690 --> 01:29:05.653
I'd be absolutely open to that.
01:29:07.774 --> 01:29:08.607
Thoughts and comments.
01:29:08.607 --> 01:29:09.820
Thank you for your
leadership on this issue.
01:29:09.820 --> 01:29:11.680
Commissioner Glotfelty.
01:29:11.680 --> 01:29:14.920
I think your questions
are very robust and holistic,
01:29:14.920 --> 01:29:16.550
and I thought they were great questions.
01:29:16.550 --> 01:29:18.033
So I don't have anything to add.
01:29:21.730 --> 01:29:24.960
Yeah and on that Commissioner,
01:29:24.960 --> 01:29:29.370
so given that this would
be an enhancement
01:29:29.370 --> 01:29:33.603
to our transmission systems.
01:29:38.420 --> 01:29:41.530
Do you envision long-term
and should a question
01:29:41.530 --> 01:29:46.520
be posed in this
direction that evaluates it?
01:29:46.520 --> 01:29:49.293
Should there be a cost benefit?
01:29:50.440 --> 01:29:53.440
And they do this
already, a cost-benefit test
01:29:53.440 --> 01:29:54.860
on those enhancements.
01:29:54.860 --> 01:29:57.310
Again, what value do you add?
01:29:57.310 --> 01:29:58.800
And for the system reliability,
01:29:58.800 --> 01:30:03.460
what kind of transmission
level threat mitigation
01:30:04.600 --> 01:30:07.160
performances offset those costs?
01:30:07.160 --> 01:30:08.386
I would be happy to add a
question about how would you see
01:30:08.386 --> 01:30:13.386
a cost-benefit analysis
of this technology...
01:30:16.110 --> 01:30:21.110
Being incorporated into
your infrastructure analysis?
01:30:22.290 --> 01:30:23.580
I think that would be great.
01:30:23.580 --> 01:30:25.653
Okay, I'd like to add that.
01:30:25.653 --> 01:30:26.486
Absolutely.
01:30:26.486 --> 01:30:27.319
That sounds good to me.
01:30:28.990 --> 01:30:30.580
Works for me.
01:30:30.580 --> 01:30:34.620
Do you want to provide a
timeline for those responses?
01:30:34.620 --> 01:30:37.400
I'm just gonna get in front of this.
01:30:37.400 --> 01:30:38.360
Why don't we just...
01:30:38.360 --> 01:30:40.733
I mean, I think it should be...
01:30:40.733 --> 01:30:41.840
I mean, is there a normal timeline?
01:30:41.840 --> 01:30:42.803
60 days?
01:30:43.840 --> 01:30:46.823
We've got a lot going on,
so I don't wanna burden.
01:30:48.770 --> 01:30:51.270
I mean, I was thinking
of talking to Connie
01:30:51.270 --> 01:30:54.690
about finding out how best
to distribute these questions.
01:30:54.690 --> 01:30:56.560
Who do we wanna target them to?
01:30:56.560 --> 01:30:58.680
I'm not seeing
necessarily an order here,
01:30:58.680 --> 01:31:01.850
but maybe a bit more of
like we did in workshops,
01:31:01.850 --> 01:31:03.963
or just proposing questions to parties.
01:31:05.330 --> 01:31:09.383
Typically that would be more
of a 30 to 60 day timeline.
01:31:11.260 --> 01:31:12.093
Yes, I agree.
01:31:12.093 --> 01:31:15.150
And I think this discussion
will go a long way
01:31:15.150 --> 01:31:18.860
towards figuring out who might be
01:31:20.010 --> 01:31:22.210
the best folks to respond to that.
01:31:22.210 --> 01:31:23.860
Who would be the most interested?
01:31:23.860 --> 01:31:25.870
And I think 60 days is fine.
01:31:25.870 --> 01:31:30.400
You know, again, we've
got really big fish to fry early
01:31:30.400 --> 01:31:31.570
in November and December.
01:31:31.570 --> 01:31:35.680
So this is a longer-term
issue that I think we can
01:31:35.680 --> 01:31:37.930
get to a better discussion
launch next year.
01:31:37.930 --> 01:31:39.473
So 60 days would be great.
01:31:40.410 --> 01:31:42.340
All right, do you have
everything you need?
01:31:42.340 --> 01:31:45.543
Or I guess we've taken
instruction from the dais
01:31:45.543 --> 01:31:47.330
when we opened the project
01:31:47.330 --> 01:31:49.770
and consider the guidance from the dais
01:31:49.770 --> 01:31:52.280
of direction to our
relevant stakeholders?
01:31:52.280 --> 01:31:53.832
Correct.
01:31:53.832 --> 01:31:55.020
And some further
guidance about the question
01:31:55.020 --> 01:31:56.213
on benefit costs.
01:31:57.598 --> 01:31:58.623
Yeah, yeah (indistinct).
Yes.
01:31:59.570 --> 01:32:00.790
Okay.
01:32:00.790 --> 01:32:03.260
Would you like to update
your memo with that question?
01:32:03.260 --> 01:32:04.523
Filed under this project?
01:32:06.561 --> 01:32:08.011
There was another question.
01:32:10.510 --> 01:32:11.920
If we open up a project number,
01:32:11.920 --> 01:32:15.023
I would like this memo to be
added to that project number.
01:32:18.832 --> 01:32:20.120
Is it appropriate for me to...
01:32:20.120 --> 01:32:21.320
Why don't I do that?
01:32:21.320 --> 01:32:24.721
I'll update the memo
01:32:24.721 --> 01:32:26.710
with Commissioner McAdam's question
01:32:26.710 --> 01:32:29.080
and re-circulated it.
01:32:29.080 --> 01:32:33.320
Do we have a docket
number or a project number?
01:32:33.320 --> 01:32:35.290
We need to look to see
whether we got something
01:32:35.290 --> 01:32:37.290
existent or we need
to create another one.
01:32:37.290 --> 01:32:41.270
And then if this is sort of like,
01:32:41.270 --> 01:32:43.100
staff's gonna put out questions,
01:32:43.100 --> 01:32:44.730
I don't know that you
need to redo your memo.
01:32:44.730 --> 01:32:47.263
We just need to perform the question.
01:32:48.390 --> 01:32:49.967
Can you work with
staff to figure out...
01:32:49.967 --> 01:32:50.800
Absolutely.
01:32:50.800 --> 01:32:51.920
The best way to
move forward with this
01:32:51.920 --> 01:32:55.130
and staff can update her
individual offices separately?
01:32:55.130 --> 01:32:55.963
Yes.
01:32:57.238 --> 01:32:59.783
All right, there we go.
01:33:00.810 --> 01:33:04.630
I don't have anything on 29, 30, 31.
01:33:08.690 --> 01:33:11.780
Hearing no other topics on those items,
01:33:11.780 --> 01:33:14.433
that brings us to agenda item number 32.
01:33:16.210 --> 01:33:18.460
I think our executive
director has an update.
01:33:21.050 --> 01:33:22.110
Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
Commissioners
01:33:22.110 --> 01:33:25.343
for my two minutes
today that I will take.
01:33:26.780 --> 01:33:27.613
It's not three.
01:33:27.613 --> 01:33:28.730
If you gave Commissioner
Glotfelty three,
01:33:28.730 --> 01:33:31.319
I'll just take two, thank you, chairman.
01:33:31.319 --> 01:33:32.152
I appreciate
the self muzzling.
01:33:32.152 --> 01:33:32.985
Absolutely.
01:33:32.985 --> 01:33:34.260
Yeah, restraint, thank you.
01:33:34.260 --> 01:33:36.520
Just a quick update
on our continued work
01:33:36.520 --> 01:33:39.050
with the railroad Commission
and the oil and gas
01:33:39.050 --> 01:33:40.750
and electric industries to ensure
01:33:41.896 --> 01:33:45.290
that everyone is prepared
for this upcoming winter.
01:33:45.290 --> 01:33:47.070
At the request of Commissioner McAdams,
01:33:47.070 --> 01:33:49.370
we held a meeting last Wednesday
01:33:49.370 --> 01:33:52.160
up in the railroad Commission's offices
01:33:52.160 --> 01:33:55.290
with more than 70
members, representatives
01:33:55.290 --> 01:33:56.550
from the oil and gas industry,
01:33:56.550 --> 01:33:58.770
as well as the electric industry,
railroad Commission staff,
01:33:58.770 --> 01:34:02.940
and our staff to lay out any
issues that are still existing
01:34:02.940 --> 01:34:06.163
going into this winter that
remain needing to be addressed.
01:34:07.170 --> 01:34:09.290
That meeting lasted roughly three hours.
01:34:09.290 --> 01:34:11.540
We had a very robust discussion.
01:34:11.540 --> 01:34:12.640
Coming out of that,
01:34:12.640 --> 01:34:15.370
we have I'd say a
handful of action items
01:34:17.025 --> 01:34:19.375
that PUC staff sent to
the railroad Commission.
01:34:20.290 --> 01:34:23.500
I'm meeting with railroad Commission,
01:34:23.500 --> 01:34:25.920
executive director Wei Wang tomorrow
01:34:25.920 --> 01:34:28.310
to go over that action
item list with the goal
01:34:28.310 --> 01:34:31.970
of getting everything on that
list completed by January one,
01:34:31.970 --> 01:34:34.210
to ensure that we have
done everything we can
01:34:34.210 --> 01:34:36.090
to be prepared for this upcoming winter.
01:34:36.090 --> 01:34:38.410
And once that action
item list is finalized,
01:34:38.410 --> 01:34:40.090
I've already talked to
each of your chiefs of staff,
01:34:40.090 --> 01:34:42.540
will come by and brief
you on those action items.
01:34:45.310 --> 01:34:46.510
Thank you, sir.
01:34:46.510 --> 01:34:51.510
Will, I know you've been
carrying a heavy load on this one.
01:34:52.490 --> 01:34:56.180
It's hard to understate
the importance of this issue
01:34:56.180 --> 01:34:57.520
heading into winter.
01:34:57.520 --> 01:34:58.600
Yes, sir.
01:34:58.600 --> 01:35:02.230
I can affirm what Thomas briefed you on.
01:35:02.230 --> 01:35:04.720
It was a robust discussion.
01:35:04.720 --> 01:35:06.203
It was collaborative.
01:35:07.130 --> 01:35:10.920
I would say that from the...
01:35:10.920 --> 01:35:15.920
The takeaway perspective is
that the analysis and evaluation
01:35:16.930 --> 01:35:19.160
by our transmission service providers
01:35:19.160 --> 01:35:21.933
for the upcoming winter
is absolutely essential.
01:35:22.990 --> 01:35:27.990
It is the guiding star by
which both the Commission,
01:35:30.375 --> 01:35:31.208
the public utility Commission
01:35:31.208 --> 01:35:33.390
and railroad Commission's efforts
01:35:34.570 --> 01:35:37.773
are fully underway and
designed to address.
01:35:39.170 --> 01:35:42.030
We're not there yet, but
we're gonna get there.
01:35:42.030 --> 01:35:46.040
And I appreciate Thomas
and staff's work on this.
01:35:46.040 --> 01:35:47.256
Thank you.
01:35:47.256 --> 01:35:49.650
And I would just add that
the most of the discussion
01:35:49.650 --> 01:35:52.340
centered around
different tiers of criticality
01:35:53.850 --> 01:35:56.750
for different facilities,
communication plans,
01:35:56.750 --> 01:35:59.620
as well as language around force measure
01:35:59.620 --> 01:36:01.563
and from fuel contracting.
01:36:04.900 --> 01:36:06.250
All very, very important.
01:36:07.560 --> 01:36:08.393
Thank you, Thomas.
01:36:08.393 --> 01:36:11.520
And then the second
item is some sad news
01:36:11.520 --> 01:36:12.990
for those who haven't heard,
01:36:12.990 --> 01:36:14.480
our communications director,
01:36:14.480 --> 01:36:18.050
Andrew Barlow will be
leaving us next Friday.
01:36:18.050 --> 01:36:22.000
So I just wanted to publicly
thank him for his service here,
01:36:22.000 --> 01:36:24.780
especially during the
winter storm and thereafter.
01:36:24.780 --> 01:36:27.350
You know, we have a
one-person communications team
01:36:27.350 --> 01:36:29.630
and the amount of
work that he had to do,
01:36:29.630 --> 01:36:32.920
including the number
of interviews he gave
01:36:32.920 --> 01:36:35.260
to different media outlets
during that the week
01:36:35.260 --> 01:36:38.590
of Winter Storm Uri and after that,
01:36:38.590 --> 01:36:41.800
was just incredible and
we're gonna miss him.
01:36:41.800 --> 01:36:43.500
And I wish him all the best.
01:36:43.500 --> 01:36:44.820
I know everyone on staff does.
01:36:44.820 --> 01:36:47.653
And it will be very difficult
to replace him on staff.
01:36:50.390 --> 01:36:52.610
Very, very sorry to see you go.
01:36:52.610 --> 01:36:56.890
We wish you all the best
in your future endeavors.
01:36:56.890 --> 01:37:00.300
And to echo Thomas's sentiment,
01:37:00.300 --> 01:37:04.250
it's incredible how much energy, talent,
01:37:04.250 --> 01:37:08.653
and fun can fit into a
one-person communications team.
01:37:10.150 --> 01:37:12.100
And if you can find
the interview of hidden
01:37:12.100 --> 01:37:14.733
giving us an interview
in Spanish, it's gold.
01:37:17.070 --> 01:37:19.219
Is that one of the
auction items for us?
01:37:19.219 --> 01:37:20.052
(laughter)
01:37:20.052 --> 01:37:23.320
We may have to augment
and add that after he leaves.
01:37:23.320 --> 01:37:24.153
Yeah.
01:37:25.130 --> 01:37:27.370
Certainly bid on that.
01:37:27.370 --> 01:37:28.470
We'll miss you Barlow.
01:37:29.690 --> 01:37:30.523
Thank you.
01:37:30.523 --> 01:37:31.356
We sure are, yeah.
01:37:31.356 --> 01:37:33.510
I mean, I'll never forget
joining this Commission
01:37:34.669 --> 01:37:38.030
almost of six months ago
and spent a long six months.
01:37:38.030 --> 01:37:41.700
But Andrew was what
was living this before that.
01:37:41.700 --> 01:37:44.750
And I think we're gonna
get together years from now.
01:37:44.750 --> 01:37:46.990
It's like this PUC
reunion about everybody
01:37:46.990 --> 01:37:50.040
who either lived through that
event or came in afterwards.
01:37:50.040 --> 01:37:52.840
And Andrew, you're
sure gonna be welcomed.
01:37:52.840 --> 01:37:55.210
And you did good service for the state.
01:37:55.210 --> 01:37:56.710
Thanks for everything you did.
01:37:57.680 --> 01:37:59.580
Thank you, Andrew,
for your service.
01:38:03.210 --> 01:38:05.940
You barely even know
him, you just got here.
01:38:05.940 --> 01:38:07.920
He took my picture though
and it's on the website.
01:38:07.920 --> 01:38:09.329
So, thank you.
01:38:09.329 --> 01:38:10.263
That was a good one.
01:38:11.310 --> 01:38:13.910
Oh yes, before you
leave, your last assignment
01:38:13.910 --> 01:38:15.600
is to put our pictures on the wall.
01:38:15.600 --> 01:38:16.433
Oh yeah.
01:38:19.048 --> 01:38:24.048
All right, that brings us
to agenda item number 33.
01:38:24.230 --> 01:38:27.660
I know Ms. Corona has a few comments
01:38:27.660 --> 01:38:29.420
on customer service.
01:38:29.420 --> 01:38:31.420
Thank you, Commissioners.
01:38:31.420 --> 01:38:32.690
I know it's been a long day,
01:38:32.690 --> 01:38:35.910
but this is a very important
topic that I wanna be sure
01:38:35.910 --> 01:38:37.363
to bring to your attention.
01:38:38.720 --> 01:38:41.840
I'd like to give you an update
on customer complaints.
01:38:41.840 --> 01:38:45.670
As you might imagine, our
complaint investigation workload
01:38:45.670 --> 01:38:48.640
since winter storm Uri
is heavier than it's been
01:38:48.640 --> 01:38:50.040
in quite some time.
01:38:50.040 --> 01:38:53.620
As a point of reference,
we passed our 2020
01:38:53.620 --> 01:38:55.803
total complaint number in August.
01:38:57.680 --> 01:39:01.020
We have a relatively
small team of staff members
01:39:01.020 --> 01:39:04.210
that investigate and respond
to each and every one
01:39:04.210 --> 01:39:06.870
of those complaints and that small team
01:39:06.870 --> 01:39:08.423
is doing a fantastic job.
01:39:09.680 --> 01:39:14.680
However, we do need some
help from our regulated community
01:39:15.420 --> 01:39:18.260
so that our investigators
can work as efficiently
01:39:18.260 --> 01:39:20.683
as possible to help those customers.
01:39:22.550 --> 01:39:24.620
In serving the investigators,
01:39:24.620 --> 01:39:28.313
we found several
opportunities for improvement,
01:39:29.150 --> 01:39:31.003
and we found a couple gold stars.
01:39:32.370 --> 01:39:35.340
So when the regulated community
01:39:35.340 --> 01:39:37.410
is responding to customer complaints
01:39:37.410 --> 01:39:41.170
filed as a Commission,
there are a few things
01:39:41.170 --> 01:39:44.230
that make a timely
resolution for the customer
01:39:44.230 --> 01:39:45.903
particularly challenging.
01:39:46.890 --> 01:39:50.180
I'd like to give you and
the folks in the audience
01:39:51.273 --> 01:39:52.673
and online some examples.
01:39:54.430 --> 01:39:57.160
The top three challenges
for our investigators
01:39:57.160 --> 01:40:01.810
were late responses, late responses
01:40:01.810 --> 01:40:05.420
and late responses.
01:40:05.420 --> 01:40:09.340
Please, please respond on time.
01:40:09.340 --> 01:40:11.963
The investigators waiting,
the customers' waiting.
01:40:13.630 --> 01:40:16.330
That one is followed up pretty quickly
01:40:16.330 --> 01:40:18.520
by not responding at all.
01:40:18.520 --> 01:40:22.970
And that will earn you
a visit from Mr. English,
01:40:22.970 --> 01:40:24.370
our director of enforcement.
01:40:26.390 --> 01:40:28.483
Not a personal visit, but an email.
01:40:34.064 --> 01:40:37.710
He'll do
real games, I'm sure.
01:40:37.710 --> 01:40:42.230
A couple of other things
though were of note,
01:40:42.230 --> 01:40:44.883
missing or incomplete documentation.
01:40:45.860 --> 01:40:49.880
So this includes when improvisor
01:40:49.880 --> 01:40:54.470
sends us a generic
template of correspondence
01:40:54.470 --> 01:40:58.697
that says, "Dear blank,
here's what's happening
01:40:58.697 --> 01:40:59.960
"with your account."
01:40:59.960 --> 01:41:02.930
Now we want to see dear Mr. Gleason
01:41:02.930 --> 01:41:06.210
and the exact letter that
the customer received.
01:41:06.210 --> 01:41:08.720
The generic template out of your files
01:41:08.720 --> 01:41:10.853
is not helpful in the investigation.
01:41:13.220 --> 01:41:15.160
Responding to only one issue
01:41:15.160 --> 01:41:16.940
when the customer actually sites
01:41:16.940 --> 01:41:19.550
multiple problems with their account.
01:41:19.550 --> 01:41:22.310
We'd like to get all of
the issues rounded up
01:41:22.310 --> 01:41:25.513
and dealt with in one fell swoop.
01:41:28.892 --> 01:41:31.520
Here's something that
you might not realize
01:41:31.520 --> 01:41:35.710
is a problem, but is with the
way we process complaints,
01:41:35.710 --> 01:41:38.580
responding in the body of an email
01:41:38.580 --> 01:41:42.070
instead of an attachment
that automatically is fed
01:41:42.070 --> 01:41:45.770
into our database causes
problems and delays for us.
01:41:45.770 --> 01:41:48.640
Staff has to go pull
that out of an email,
01:41:48.640 --> 01:41:52.500
put it in a document and
then load it to the database.
01:41:52.500 --> 01:41:54.163
It's just extra step for them.
01:41:56.293 --> 01:42:01.293
And then the final one
that causes us problems
01:42:02.260 --> 01:42:06.000
is when a provider
gives our investigator
01:42:07.150 --> 01:42:09.290
general company contact information
01:42:09.290 --> 01:42:13.140
like a 1800 number,
rather than providing
01:42:13.140 --> 01:42:16.090
a specific point of
contact for our investigator
01:42:16.090 --> 01:42:18.607
to follow up with on a given complaint.
01:42:19.640 --> 01:42:22.400
So these problems are not specific
01:42:22.400 --> 01:42:25.393
to any particular industry,
but apply across the board.
01:42:26.410 --> 01:42:28.680
I would say in general
that the large providers
01:42:28.680 --> 01:42:29.563
do a good job.
01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:33.500
Many smaller companies
that don't often have
01:42:33.500 --> 01:42:36.110
the occasion to interact
with the Commission
01:42:36.110 --> 01:42:37.480
have more difficulties.
01:42:37.480 --> 01:42:39.683
They just need more practice.
01:42:40.570 --> 01:42:42.930
For that, I'd recommend
that the associations
01:42:42.930 --> 01:42:45.420
that represent these smaller providers
01:42:45.420 --> 01:42:47.170
reach out to them periodically
01:42:47.170 --> 01:42:49.453
with reminders of best practices.
01:42:50.780 --> 01:42:53.640
I'd like to wrap up though
with some good news
01:42:53.640 --> 01:42:56.483
and share a couple of
tips for excellent responses.
01:42:57.320 --> 01:43:00.560
First, reaching out to
the customer promptly
01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:03.523
after a complaint is received
is a great way to start.
01:43:04.710 --> 01:43:08.900
And secondly, when
responding to our investigators,
01:43:08.900 --> 01:43:13.100
the best responses
address the issue or issues
01:43:13.100 --> 01:43:15.600
raised by the customer and also provide
01:43:15.600 --> 01:43:18.530
additional context about
the customer's account
01:43:18.530 --> 01:43:20.950
so that the investigator can understand
01:43:20.950 --> 01:43:22.780
the full resolution and see it
01:43:22.780 --> 01:43:24.660
from the customer's perspective,
01:43:24.660 --> 01:43:27.230
everything that's
happening with their account.
01:43:27.230 --> 01:43:29.230
So thank you for your time.
01:43:29.230 --> 01:43:32.330
We will be reaching out
to the regulated community
01:43:32.330 --> 01:43:36.320
and providing them
with some of these tips,
01:43:36.320 --> 01:43:38.770
but I wanted to bring
you all up-to-date as well.
01:43:40.503 --> 01:43:41.435
Thank you, Connie.
01:43:41.435 --> 01:43:43.760
I think it goes without
saying that you and our staff
01:43:43.760 --> 01:43:46.320
have the full support
of this Commission.
01:43:46.320 --> 01:43:50.970
A number of the failures
that you mentioned
01:43:50.970 --> 01:43:54.230
are I think would categorize
a good chunk of those
01:43:54.230 --> 01:43:56.800
as completely unacceptable,
01:43:56.800 --> 01:44:00.160
and a few of those as
dramatically need improvement,
01:44:00.160 --> 01:44:02.860
but the emphasis on
completely unacceptable
01:44:03.910 --> 01:44:06.783
is not something that I think
any of us wanna tolerate.
01:44:07.910 --> 01:44:08.743
Thank you for the update.
01:44:08.743 --> 01:44:11.070
Yeah and Connie,
I think it's safe to say
01:44:11.070 --> 01:44:13.330
from all of our perspectives,
the competitive system
01:44:13.330 --> 01:44:15.610
is predicated upon our retail community
01:44:15.610 --> 01:44:18.350
and our market participants
doing the right thing
01:44:18.350 --> 01:44:19.420
as a default setting.
01:44:19.420 --> 01:44:21.780
So all of the stipulations you laid out
01:44:21.780 --> 01:44:25.950
in terms of our complaint
resolution system,
01:44:25.950 --> 01:44:28.090
that's predicated around
them doing the right thing
01:44:28.090 --> 01:44:29.970
and complying in the right way.
01:44:29.970 --> 01:44:32.900
So this Commission is dedicated
01:44:32.900 --> 01:44:34.850
to keeping the competitive
marketplace healthy,
01:44:34.850 --> 01:44:36.650
but that means our marketplace
01:44:36.650 --> 01:44:38.220
has to do the right thing
01:44:38.220 --> 01:44:40.030
and serve the consumer as well.
01:44:40.030 --> 01:44:43.500
So please know that
you have our full support.
01:44:43.500 --> 01:44:45.070
Thank you for
support Commissioners.
01:44:45.070 --> 01:44:47.610
And if any member of
the regulated community
01:44:47.610 --> 01:44:51.040
has a question about how to respond
01:44:51.040 --> 01:44:53.230
or the best way to
respond to a complaint,
01:44:53.230 --> 01:44:55.760
they can reach out to
their assigned investigator
01:44:55.760 --> 01:44:58.450
or directly to our customer
protection director,
01:44:58.450 --> 01:44:59.303
Chris Burch.
01:45:00.730 --> 01:45:01.920
Thank you for
this update, Connie.
01:45:01.920 --> 01:45:04.400
And I just wanna echo
the chairman's comments
01:45:04.400 --> 01:45:06.690
and Commissioner McAdams' comments.
01:45:06.690 --> 01:45:09.760
It is critically important
for these companies
01:45:09.760 --> 01:45:13.090
to serve the customers
and to be responsive.
01:45:13.090 --> 01:45:16.670
These customers are
waiting to resolve their issues.
01:45:16.670 --> 01:45:20.750
And it's unacceptable
that they're just kind of left
01:45:20.750 --> 01:45:23.370
to wonder when their
complaints and resolutions
01:45:23.370 --> 01:45:26.530
and investigations
will come to completion.
01:45:26.530 --> 01:45:29.280
So like my Commissioner
McAdams has just said,
01:45:29.280 --> 01:45:33.600
we want a healthy, competitive
retail electricity market.
01:45:33.600 --> 01:45:35.680
But a good component of that
01:45:35.680 --> 01:45:40.680
is to ensure effective
service for the consumers.
01:45:40.820 --> 01:45:42.380
Thank you.
01:45:42.380 --> 01:45:43.213
Well put.
01:45:44.760 --> 01:45:47.240
All right, that brings us to item 34.
01:45:47.240 --> 01:45:49.730
I don't have anything on this item.
01:45:49.730 --> 01:45:51.210
Mr. Glotfelty, any thoughts?
01:45:51.210 --> 01:45:53.450
Just one more
thing, sorry y'all.
01:45:53.450 --> 01:45:54.490
Three minutes.
01:45:54.490 --> 01:45:56.163
No, less than that.
01:45:57.410 --> 01:45:58.740
This deals with cybersecurity,
01:45:58.740 --> 01:46:03.610
obviously it's issue that
every utility is dealing with,
01:46:03.610 --> 01:46:06.210
every generator, every
participant ERCOT deals with.
01:46:07.780 --> 01:46:11.750
I just wanted to make the
reminder or the encouragement
01:46:12.793 --> 01:46:17.793
that NERC is having one of
their major cybersecurity events
01:46:19.860 --> 01:46:21.520
that's coming up called GridEx.
01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:23.140
It's November 16th and 17th.
01:46:24.290 --> 01:46:27.850
It is a distributed play exercise.
01:46:27.850 --> 01:46:32.120
And I think it is valuable
for all of our utilities
01:46:32.120 --> 01:46:36.060
to participate in as many
exercises as they can.
01:46:36.060 --> 01:46:38.923
And that the more we learn about these,
01:46:39.780 --> 01:46:43.403
not only cyber attacks,
but physical attacks,
01:46:44.820 --> 01:46:47.350
we will be prepared if
something, God forbid,
01:46:47.350 --> 01:46:48.840
ever does happen to the ERCOT system.
01:46:48.840 --> 01:46:50.313
So I just wanna bring this up
01:46:50.313 --> 01:46:52.170
that we encourage
everybody to participate
01:46:52.170 --> 01:46:53.440
if they can.
01:46:53.440 --> 01:46:56.293
Absolutely, I'll second that.
01:46:57.710 --> 01:46:59.170
Cyber security is something
01:46:59.170 --> 01:47:01.290
that is an ever expanding threat
01:47:01.290 --> 01:47:04.563
that requires constant diligence.
01:47:05.860 --> 01:47:07.810
Thank you for highlighting that for us.
01:47:09.940 --> 01:47:13.100
All right, it's 3:09 p.m.
01:47:13.100 --> 01:47:14.570
There being no further business to come
01:47:14.570 --> 01:47:15.720
before the Commission,
01:47:15.720 --> 01:47:18.100
this meeting of the Public
Utility Commission of Texas
01:47:18.100 --> 01:47:19.793
is hereby adjourned.