WEBVTT

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Good morning. (item:0.1:Chairman Lake calls meeting to order) This meeting of the Public Utility Commission

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of Texas will come to order. To consider matters have

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been duly posted with the Secretary of State of Texas

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for March 23, 2023. For the record, my name is Peter

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Lake. With me today are Will McAdams, Lori Cobos, Jimmy

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Glotfelty and Kathleen Jackson. Mr. Journeay, could you

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please walk us through the consent items on today's

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agenda? (item:0.1:Mr. Journeay describes consent agenda items) Good morning Commissioners. By individual ballot,

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the following items were placed on your consent

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agenda 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 14, 15, 17, 27 and 30. Thank you

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sir. (item:0.1:Consent items approved) Do we have a motion to approve the items just described

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by Mr. Journeay? So moved. Second. Got a motion and a second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Non

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opposed, motion passes. Uh, we will not be taking up

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Item 25 today. And in terms of order of business, we

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will go, uh we will start with Public Comment as always.

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But then start with uh, items 20, 21, and 22 at the top of

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our agenda. And then proceed uh, as usual with the remainder

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of the agenda. So public comments. Oral comments related

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to a specific agenda item will be heard when that item

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is taken up. This segment is for general comments only.

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When we do get to oral comments on specific items. Stakeholders

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should not approach the table unless oral argument has

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been granted or they've been invited by a Commissioner.

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As always, speakers will be limited to 3 minutes

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each. Mr. Journeay, do we have anybody signed up for public

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comment? Uh yes, sir. Three people have signed up this

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morning. Um, although it appears that they perhaps are signing

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up to talk to an item.

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Well if they have, call them out. If they have general

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comments, they're welcome to approach. The first person

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on the list is Brandon Shelby.

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(item:1:Brandon Shelby's public comment) Uh, Mr. Chairman. I am uh here to for Adam (inaudible)

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(inaudible) agenda. Uh, just here if the

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Commission had any questions. And since it's passed, I

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guess we don't. Thank you, and good chat. Thank you. Thank

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you for being here. (item:1:Chad Dannheim's public comment) Um, perhaps that's true for Chad

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Dannheim who's also. Yeah, same? Correct, exact same.

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And then uh,

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Maddie Isturis. (item:1:Maddie Isturis' public comment) Yes. Good morning. I don't have

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any general comments. I'm just available if there's

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any questions for Item 9 and

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(inaudible) Morgan Acres. Thank you. That's good to know. That uh, concludes the sign up list. Public comment is

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now closed. Uh, appreciate everybody being here and

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we'll keep you in mind for Item 9. Uh, let's start

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out with Item No. 20. Could you please lay that

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out for us, Mr. Journeay?

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(item:20:54739, Luminant Energy's request for amended voluntary mitigation plan) Item 20 is Docket 54739 is the request for approval

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of the amended uh, voluntary mitigation plan for Luminant.

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Commission Staff filed a settlement agreement and an

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application to approve an amended voluntary mitigation

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plan. Thank you, sir. Uh this is, (item:20:54739, Chairman Lake's initial thoughts on Mitigation Plan) this is a similar

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topic for all 3 of these items. Um, and this is

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in some ways um

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an administrative change resulting from operational

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changes. That were made to ensure reliability back in

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2021. Um, appreciate the folks and this goes for all

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the all of the, the VMPs we're gonna be discussing.

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I appreciate the folks that work with Staff to come

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to a new agreement. Uh and certainly understand uh,

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there, there's could be some logic for folks who did

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not. And each of those different outcomes has, has guard

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rails in place. Uh, so the bottom line is what we're considering

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today will be an enhancement for our consumers, uh is the

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bottom line. And also I want to note that I mean,

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these should be, these VMPs were established a previous

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time and place in the history of the grid, that's changed.

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And as uh Commissioner Cobos and several others have

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pointed out these, the grid is changing rapidly. And

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these should be visited uh, revisited more regularly.

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Uh, and uh there's no, nothing we're concerned today

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relates to implies or proves any guilty behavior. Uh, this

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is an oversight change. And so I want to make sure

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everybody understands. Nobody is no parties are being

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accused of, or being

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convicted or uh, a judgment rendered on guilty behavior.

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This is an enhancement to protect consumers and consumer

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prices and importantly, um as our IMM has correctly

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pointed out. This is the change in operations increased

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the demand for Nonspin reserves. To much more closely

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match the available supply. Thus changing the supply

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demand dynamic in that particular marketplace. Uh, which

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precipitated the need for considering some tighter

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guardrails. Which were taken up for consideration today.

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Um, but I will also note that once ECRS

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is up and running in June. As the megawatts increase

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for ECRS, the megawatts procured and Nonspin for ERCOT

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will go back down. From on average, I think 4,000 megawatts

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to 3,000 or even even during some operating period is

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2,500. Uh so 20, yeah, 20, 30, 40% reduction in Nonspin.

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Which will get us back to that previous dynamic of

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of supply exceeding demand in Nonspin. Thus, uh bringing

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back a more potent, I guess pricing dynamic. A more

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competitive dynamic in that particular market. So,

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but those changes again, get back to the point. These

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our grid is changing rapidly and so these need to be

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reconsidered more frequently. Um that being said, um

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happy to love to hear your thoughts, comments.

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Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, I too would like to thank

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um, Barksdale and team, the Staff. Um, Thomas and Cary, IMM

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and, and the companies. (item:20:54739, Commissioner Cobos' thoughts on Mitigation Plan) For um, coming together and

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and um working on taking action to amend or, or agree

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to, to certain conditions. Of the of, of the all three

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of the um the VMPS that are currently in place.

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Um, I think this is important as the Chairman mentioned.

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Um, to ensure continued reliability through this very

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valuable product, but also ensure customers are protected.

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And, and I appreciate all the hard work that went into

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um coming to a resolution on this important matter.

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Well so yeah I, I would echo that Mr. Chairman. And

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congratulate Staff and stakeholders for accommodating

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uh this, this discussion. (item:20:54739, Commissioner McAdams' thoughts on Mitigation Plan) And, and trying to uh adapt

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our agreements to the new posture of ERCOT and the

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new uh market changes. That have come into play in,

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in a fairly expeditious uh, manner. Um I, I would also

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echo your comments and add to. In terms of uh these

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will need to be reviewed more regularly uh, potentially

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more often. Because of what is also what we are continuing

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to do as a part of Phase 1 and now potentially as

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part of Phase 2. Of our market design uh blueprint

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and what could be envisioned there as Nonspin may change

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yet again. Um, considering the bridging recommendations

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that may come forward from uh ERCOT. Because there's

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an opportunity for Nonspin to uh accommodate and potentially

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to repurpose it purpose itself. To accommodate for an

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uncertainty product or some type of framework. That

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uh further allows us to mitigate the need for capacity

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driven rucking. To the extent that it exists today and

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thus lowering the volatility that our consumers are

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subject to over the long term. Um, which lives within

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Phase 2 blueprint, the objectives that we're seeking

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there. So uh as we do that, as ERCOT continues to make

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recommendations. We'll need to be in discussions with

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our um large generators. Uh, so that we can adapt these

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uh mitigation plans to the new environment. Yeah, 30

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minutes start time is a lot, lot less important when

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you have a 10 minute product. Yes, sir. And uh, that changing

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those parameters on existing product or a lot quicker

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than building a new one. And expands that pool of supply

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Uh very, very good point. Um

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Well, I guess I would just like to reiterate. (item:20:54739, Commissioner Jackson's thoughts on Mitigation Plan) I think

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something that you said previously is. Um, you know,

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with the change and management of change, we have a

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process in place. And I think, um you know, it's a

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credit to the process that we have in place. That this

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was recognized and that we had procedures in place.

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That we could move forward and make these changes and

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then depend on that in the future. So, um I think that's

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also an important point to be made. Is that in management

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of change, you need a process and we very much have

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that process in place that's working. Agreed. Yeah well, well put.

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Again, to Commissioner Cobos' point and commendation to Staff.

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They uh we, utilized an existing process and Staff did an excellent

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job moving quickly. And, and again, appreciate the stakeholders

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working with Staff. To get this done very, very quickly.

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Very, very important point. All right. Yes, sir. If

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you don't mind me saying something here. Oh, sure. So um I, I, I'm just gonna

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echo everything that y'all said. (item:20:54739, Commissioner Glotfelty's thoughts on Mitigation Plan) Staff did a great

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job when they were totally, uh burdened by everything

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else we've given them. Uh, but they stepped up to do

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this, uh and they continually do that. Um, we continually

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give them projects, on top of the projects, on top of

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the project. So, this was an important one obviously.

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Taking to heart what the IMM says about potential

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challenges in the market. Us protecting consumers is

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the right thing for us to do. And I think to be

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honest with you, I don't have the least understanding

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of what the formula means by in those orders. But I

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trust Barksdale does and the companies do, and certainty

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in this time of uncertainty is critical. So giving

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these companies some certainty is critical. And I think

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the process has worked smoothly. And you know, hopefully

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we will address it only when it needs to be addressed

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in the future. But at least rules are now established

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that are in alignment with the overall framework. That

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we are pursuing and that gives us comfort. Absolutely.

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And I mean these we need, we need generators. We need,

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we need more dispatchable electricity. We just need

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to make sure it's a level playing field for everybody

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involved. And the rules, rules of the marketplace are

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adhered to and welcome, welcome all comers. Uh, what

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would you entertain a motion? Yes, sir. Um one at a

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time, I assume. Yes, sir. We only have the one item. Yeah, let's just do to Item 20.

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(item:20:54739, Motion for VMP approved) Mr. Chairman, I would move to adopt the uh VMP.

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Got a motion to approve the party proposed order. Second. And a second.

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All in favor, say aye. Aye. Unopposed, motion passes. Next

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item, please sir. (item:21:54740, Request to Ratify Partial Termination VMP for NRG) Next item is 21, Docket 54740. Its

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request for ratification of Commission Staff's termination

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in part of the amended voluntary mitigation plan for

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NRG. Thoughts, comments or a motion to ratify

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partial termination? (item:21:54740, Motion is approved to ratify partial termination) I would so

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move Mr. Chairman. Second. Got a motion and a second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Non opposed,

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motion passes. Next item, please sir. (item:22:54741, requesting approval of VMP for Calpine) Next item

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is 22. Docket 54741, request for approval of an amended

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voluntary mitigation plan for Calpine. Thoughts, comments or a

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motion to approve the proposed order? I would so move. Second. Got a motion and a second. All 

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in favor, say aye. Aye.

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Uh non opposed, motion passes. Thank y'all very much.

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Uh, we will return to the regular order of business

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with Item No. 3.

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(item:3:53109, Undine Dev for System Improvement Charge) Item 3 is Docket 53109. It's the application Undine

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Development for a System Improvement Charge. SOAH ALJ

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has certified 5 issues to the Commission regarding

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uh that excludes the jurisdiction of the Commission over

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water and sewer rates.

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Um this is a regular uh, visitor to the Commission um,

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with another unique issue. Uh any thoughts or comments?

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(item:3:53109, Commissioner Cobos' thoughts on Undine Dev) I personally feel like we need more information. And

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how we get there, I think we have a couple of ways.

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One is we can request the City of Austin to file a

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brief and. But I think if we're going to request for

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briefing from the City of Austin. We may need to request

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for briefing from all the parties in the case. To be

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able to get a robust set of feedback. On some of the

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issues that I believe are important to raise um or

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or to ask the parties with respect to the Commission's

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jurisdiction. Um and, and the cities, municipalities

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jurisdiction in limited purpose, annexed areas. Um and

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what happens when a property or is sitting straddling

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in between. Um a limited purpose and uh the Commission's

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jurisdiction. And there, there's a host of issues of

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questions that we can get into. And, and after I get

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into my another point. Um that we can issue out and

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I think we'd have to issue it out. To request it from

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that feedback from not only the City of Austin, but

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the parties in the, in the case. But my concern there

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is that I think we may get a ton of briefing. And

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we may end up spinning on some of the same issues we're,

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we are potentially grappling with right now. Because

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we're not just dealing with PURA and the water or the

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water code. We're dealing with the Texas government

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code, the local government code, city ordinances. And

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so, um you know, if we're looking for a briefing to

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be more expedient than asking for an Attorney General's

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opinion. Which could take a few months, we may end

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up sort of spinning here too. And with respect to those

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issues. And so the, the other option I think is to

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ask for an Attorney General's opinion. Where the Attorney

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General's Office can then ask for a briefing from the

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parties, the city of Austin including, um included.

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And help us sort of unpack all of these layers of laws

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that are addressing these issues. Now, I recognize

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that this is not um probably what, you know, the company

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wants. Because the company has been looking to get this

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case processed as soon as possible. Right. Um and ultimately

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if we, we find that these um these areas that, that

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that are limited purpose, annexed areas. Fall within the

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city's jurisdiction, they wouldn't have access to a

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system improvement charge. So, and it's in their interest

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to get that to, to have them in over at the Commission.

00:15:36.979 --> 00:15:39.849
Because then they get access to the sick and can get

00:15:39.859 --> 00:15:43.678
interim rate rule. So that's, that's just kind of

00:15:43.690 --> 00:15:46.308
unpacking it with one option. The two options that

00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:49.639
I think are before us. If we want additional information

00:15:49.649 --> 00:15:51.548
which I personally, from my perspective feel like we

00:15:51.558 --> 00:15:55.259
need more information. Its just how we get there and

00:15:55.269 --> 00:15:58.500
um what's the most effective, possibly efficient way

00:15:58.509 --> 00:16:00.408
to do. So I know the company has been waiting for a

00:16:00.418 --> 00:16:02.979
while to get resolution on this case. But this is the

00:16:02.989 --> 00:16:07.690
first SIC case. And we need to make sure that we

00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:10.009
set up a framework going forward. Where we can efficiently

00:16:10.019 --> 00:16:12.570
process these cases. Recognizing that there's all kinds

00:16:12.580 --> 00:16:15.099
of complexities with city law, and local government

00:16:15.109 --> 00:16:17.889
law and government code. And also that the Legislatures

00:16:17.899 --> 00:16:20.428
in town. And if they want to get it, you know, some

00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.629
more clarification sent our way on SIC cases. That

00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.070
might be helpful. Uh that's, that's where I'm starting

00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.750
and I'll open it up for feedback on, on those options

00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:33.548
and thoughts. Mr. Chairman, and unless you wanna jump.

00:16:33.558 --> 00:16:37.168
(item:3:53109, Commissioner McAdams' thoughts on Undine Dev) So I agree with the way you set the table, right now

00:16:37.178 --> 00:16:41.798
uh Commissioner. But I, I would say I've certainly

00:16:41.808 --> 00:16:45.629
got opinions just off the bat. And I, I think I am

00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:47.830
not a lawyer, but here's a lawyer word that you have

00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.428
used repeatedly. This is kind of a case of first impression.

00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:54.469
Because there is a new process by which cities can

00:16:54.678 --> 00:16:59.808
um on a limited basis, annex into these areas. That

00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:05.890
are not necessarily ETJ. Um and so I, I believe on

00:17:05.900 --> 00:17:08.930
a, on an issue by issue basis. The parties agree that

00:17:08.939 --> 00:17:12.809
extra territorial jurisdictions falls within the Commission's

00:17:12.818 --> 00:17:16.509
exclusive original jurisdiction. And that full purpose

00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.150
annexation areas fall within the City of Austin's jurisdiction.

00:17:20.958 --> 00:17:24.638
Um and they have exclusive jurisdiction. Now where the

00:17:24.648 --> 00:17:29.249
party's dispute um is uh which entities has jurisdiction

00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:32.019
and the limited purpose annexation areas. Constituting

00:17:32.159 --> 00:17:34.567
most of the service area in this proceeding. And that's

00:17:34.577 --> 00:17:38.779
why we're in this new uncharted area. As to the question

00:17:38.789 --> 00:17:43.000
of law. Um we are determining as a part of this case

00:17:43.049 --> 00:17:45.479
uh the Commission's exclusive, original jurisdiction

00:17:45.489 --> 00:17:48.549
outside of the city. Uh one way or another, depending

00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.209
on which way we fall, we're, we're establishing that

00:17:51.239 --> 00:17:55.500
right line. Um if we were up to me today based on

00:17:55.509 --> 00:17:59.838
my reading of the law. Which again may be uh, uh may

00:17:59.848 --> 00:18:03.949
be vague, may be antiquated given this new uh ability

00:18:03.959 --> 00:18:07.449
for cities to annex. Um I would say that all of the

00:18:07.459 --> 00:18:10.689
partial areas in question here would be under our jurisdiction.

00:18:10.969 --> 00:18:13.769
We're affirming our jurisdiction and this is a case

00:18:13.779 --> 00:18:17.699
of first impression. So let's affirm it. Um I feel

00:18:17.709 --> 00:18:20.739
that the most accurate reading of the law and is inconsistent

00:18:20.750 --> 00:18:23.078
with how our powers have been applied in other settings,

00:18:23.088 --> 00:18:27.108
like electricity CCNs. So I'd kind of offer that

00:18:27.118 --> 00:18:30.519
up. However, I can see the value especially since we

00:18:30.529 --> 00:18:33.989
are now, this is another governmental organization.

00:18:34.539 --> 00:18:37.368
The value in seeking the Attorney General's Office

00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:42.009
to come in and help inform the situation. Uh bring

00:18:42.019 --> 00:18:46.108
the parties together uh and offer their input and an

00:18:46.118 --> 00:18:49.219
opinion. So there's certainly value there. But I, I

00:18:49.229 --> 00:18:51.650
know that just at first cut, this is kind of the way

00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:54.449
I'm leaning. I think we need to address what kinds

00:18:54.459 --> 00:18:58.140
of facts we would need to make in this kind of determination.

00:18:58.259 --> 00:19:02.348
And that's where a lot of the sub issues lie. For a

00:19:02.358 --> 00:19:05.539
limited purpose annexation, I would look to the ordinances

00:19:05.549 --> 00:19:08.059
or other municipal actions that affected the limited

00:19:08.068 --> 00:19:11.059
annexation. I would look to the question of whether

00:19:11.068 --> 00:19:14.650
those landowners can vote for the municipality. And

00:19:14.660 --> 00:19:17.009
can run for office in that municipality.

00:19:19.059 --> 00:19:22.949
Secondarily, for the subdivision that is partially incorporated.

00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:26.189
Again, while I am tempted to say that it's all under

00:19:26.199 --> 00:19:28.979
our jurisdiction. I would look to the location of the

00:19:28.989 --> 00:19:32.868
premise. Um the residents, for example to determine

00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:37.239
which uh body has regulatory authority. Um and, and

00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:40.009
again if, if this Commission airs toward an Attorney

00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:44.479
General Opinion. I would move, I would urge us to consider

00:19:44.489 --> 00:19:47.088
a motion. That the Commission grant good cause because

00:19:47.098 --> 00:19:53.019
to our 16 TAC 22127, Subsection D which is the requirement.

00:19:53.029 --> 00:19:56.170
The decision on a certified questions be made within

00:19:56.180 --> 00:19:57.959
30 days. Because I think we're going to need that extra

00:19:57.969 --> 00:20:00.920
time. It's a matter of fact, we will need that extra

00:20:00.930 --> 00:20:06.449
time. Right. Sure, I agree. (item:3:53109, Chairman Lake's thoughts on Undine
Dev) Commissioner Cobos did a nice job of laying it out and setting the

00:20:06.459 --> 00:20:10.509
table as you said. And I think some of the determinations

00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:14.150
can be made today. Um but I, I also I, I do

00:20:14.618 --> 00:20:20.009
given the multiple governmental entities and uncertainty

00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:23.279
in statute about jurisdiction. I, I do see the value

00:20:23.289 --> 00:20:27.328
and then getting the AG opinion. Both in terms of um

00:20:27.469 --> 00:20:32.219
kind of going, going straight to that authority. And

00:20:32.229 --> 00:20:34.969
not, as you said, like not either either spinning our

00:20:34.979 --> 00:20:38.858
wheels or reinventing the wheel or, or uh doing unnecessary

00:20:38.868 --> 00:20:42.309
briefings or repetitive briefings. Um so I, I can

00:20:42.318 --> 00:20:45.019
see the value there. Uh I think we can make some determinate

00:20:45.029 --> 00:20:48.140
and especially on. And I agree with you looking to the

00:20:48.150 --> 00:20:50.250
code. And like whether people with the residents can

00:20:50.259 --> 00:20:54.348
run and all of those things. I think that's, that gets

00:20:54.358 --> 00:20:59.959
into AG territory. You bet, they would have opinions. More than ours. Uh but

00:20:59.969 --> 00:21:02.118
on the determinations, like you said. Everybody agrees

00:21:02.130 --> 00:21:05.358
about the, you know, the exclusive jurisdiction over

00:21:05.368 --> 00:21:10.459
ETJ uh. For, for the PUC um municipality over

00:21:10.469 --> 00:21:13.219
uh original, you know, original jurisdiction within

00:21:13.229 --> 00:21:16.199
its corporate boundaries. Uh I think those, those are

00:21:16.209 --> 00:21:18.699
clear and we can make those determinations. And the

00:21:19.239 --> 00:21:22.309
um and, and, and I think we can also consider if is

00:21:22.318 --> 00:21:26.358
the, the on split properties. What's the, is it the

00:21:26.368 --> 00:21:31.568
residence? Is it the meter? Is it the uh is it the

00:21:31.578 --> 00:21:35.410
actual square footage of the lot? Um and I mean, that's

00:21:35.420 --> 00:21:38.410
something that's a very water specific and, and waste

00:21:38.420 --> 00:21:42.910
water specific uh question. Uh, my first cut of it was

00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.559
looking at the square footage. Um given enough from

00:21:46.568 --> 00:21:50.328
the, the water world, uh, sprinklers and pools are

00:21:50.338 --> 00:21:53.250
a big factor in Texas water. That may be that are a

00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:57.880
long way from the actual meter and outside of the uh

00:21:57.890 --> 00:22:00.318
the actual residents. Um but that, like I said, that's

00:22:00.328 --> 00:22:04.059
just that's kind of my 1st, 1st thought on that. Um

00:22:04.358 --> 00:22:07.989
so if, if it works for y'all can, can we.

00:22:10.670 --> 00:22:14.229
Uh I guess divide the discussion into AG or not for

00:22:14.239 --> 00:22:17.779
the broader governmental questions? And then second

00:22:17.789 --> 00:22:21.368
of the second part of this discussion. Be about

00:22:21.380 --> 00:22:23.598
the determinations we're comfortable making today.

00:22:24.068 --> 00:22:27.410
Yes, I think that's appropriate. I think Kathleen

00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:30.880
do you wanna go? Uh I, I was gonna say um, (item:3:53109, Commissioner Glotfelty's thoughts on  Undine Dev) if

00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:33.170
this was something that we really wanted in terms of

00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:36.858
jurisdiction. I think we would have no doubt that we

00:22:36.868 --> 00:22:40.578
would say this is ours. Well that's why I'm so confident.

00:22:40.588 --> 00:22:44.979
We are not an agency. I think that needs other

00:22:44.989 --> 00:22:47.180
people's opinions to tell us where we have jurisdiction.

00:22:47.309 --> 00:22:49.170
I think the Attorney General is going to get involved

00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:51.358
anyway, at some point in time. I think the courts are

00:22:51.368 --> 00:22:53.338
going to get involved at some point in time. And I'm

00:22:53.348 --> 00:22:55.890
totally comfortable saying we don't need an opinion

00:22:55.900 --> 00:22:57.939
from the Attorney General. We don't need an opinion

00:22:57.949 --> 00:23:01.285
from the City of Austin. And therefore what we do is

00:23:01.295 --> 00:23:04.693
we go and we decide the sub issues. And get this case

00:23:04.703 --> 00:23:07.574
on the way and if it has to be litigated, that's unfortunate.

00:23:07.584 --> 00:23:10.743
But that's the way our law is set up and that's the

00:23:10.934 --> 00:23:13.555
remedy that has to happen. So I'm all ready to go forward

00:23:13.564 --> 00:23:15.973
and just claim our jurisdiction and be done with it.

00:23:15.993 --> 00:23:16.904
Let your flag go.

00:23:19.088 --> 00:23:23.848
Found some fresh territory. That's right. Uh, ok. Well, I appreciate

00:23:23.858 --> 00:23:26.979
that. And I would defer to you on the uh, on the

00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:30.108
the residence or the lot. I mean I, I had initially

00:23:30.118 --> 00:23:33.348
thought it would be the residence. But, you know, um

00:23:34.059 --> 00:23:37.289
I don't have a pool in my residence. So uh, like I'm

00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:41.229
sure you have way on the back lot. I know in

00:23:41.239 --> 00:23:44.019
my staff deliberation. We talked about it's like man, we're glad

00:23:44.029 --> 00:23:46.449
we have some water people with water experience on

00:23:46.459 --> 00:23:49.088
this Commission. So I, I would, I would defer to you

00:23:49.098 --> 00:23:51.368
all on, on some of it. Unfortunately, I don't have

00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:54.549
a pool, uh or sprinklers. Uh,

00:23:56.078 --> 00:23:59.519
but I, I have had uh water conservation beaten into

00:23:59.529 --> 00:24:03.269
me over, over many years. And have a deep appreciation

00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:08.068
of looking at in, in water use and say, holy hell,

00:24:08.078 --> 00:24:11.059
that's a lot of water that goes into sprinklers and

00:24:11.068 --> 00:24:14.838
pools. Uh so I, I have a deep seated appreciation for

00:24:14.848 --> 00:24:20.269
that. Um in, in terms of um and, and that's, that's

00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.858
I mean that I'm not married to that. The square footage

00:24:22.868 --> 00:24:25.390
but I mean that's, that's just my like I said, my

00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:30.588
first cut. Um, but the in terms of claim, claiming

00:24:30.598 --> 00:24:35.150
the jurisdiction now or, or. I mean that's, I mean

00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.150
you put it well, right. We, we, I think we certainly

00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.828
can claim the jurisdiction on that, um, on the, um

00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:47.209
kind of disputed the limited areas. But the question

00:24:47.219 --> 00:24:49.368
is if this is going to end up at the AG

00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:53.420
anyway? We just want to short circuit the process.

00:24:53.469 --> 00:24:56.430
One of the thinking on, on my opinion also that entered

00:24:56.439 --> 00:25:01.640
into this. Is just the the the venues of litigation

00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:05.130
that will be involved in this. And thus the rate case

00:25:05.140 --> 00:25:08.209
expenses that will be involved and the uncertainty

00:25:08.219 --> 00:25:13.150
for the consumers. The consumers that are, they need

00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:15.719
this settled as quickly as possible. So the path we

00:25:15.729 --> 00:25:19.318
determine now. Will determine that kind of time, uh

00:25:19.328 --> 00:25:23.759
lapse uh between ultimate settlement of the issue.

00:25:24.130 --> 00:25:28.469
So um, what do you think? Well I, I think it's uncertain

00:25:28.479 --> 00:25:31.118
for the company, right? The consumers, I think it,

00:25:31.130 --> 00:25:34.420
you know, the company is wanting, has invested in infrastructure.

00:25:34.430 --> 00:25:37.868
That they're wanting to start recouping some rate recovery

00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:40.949
for. And ultimately, the consumers right will end up

00:25:40.959 --> 00:25:44.789
paying this charge. And so, um, the costs are coming

00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.650
anyway, at some point. Whether it's in the sick or

00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:51.420
and eventually the rate case, right? And um, so I

00:25:52.088 --> 00:25:55.858
and that, and I will say. I mean it's, we can, we

00:25:55.868 --> 00:25:58.489
we've gone both ways here. We've gone where, you know

00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:00.838
gone in the direction of asking for an AG opinion.

00:26:00.848 --> 00:26:04.318
When we have a jurisdictional overlap at TCEQ, we've

00:26:04.328 --> 00:26:07.479
also asserted our authority. Um, as Commissioner Glotfelty

00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:10.680
has pointed out. I mean that this case is likely to

00:26:10.689 --> 00:26:14.189
get litigated. Um, you know potentially, um, there's

00:26:14.199 --> 00:26:16.400
a potential for litigation maybe at the back end. Um

00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:18.348
depending on where we come out on this. If we were

00:26:18.358 --> 00:26:22.209
to adjudicate this case today. Um I think there are

00:26:22.219 --> 00:26:25.318
um, issues as the Chairman has pointed out. That we

00:26:25.328 --> 00:26:28.049
can make today and you have too Commissioner McAdams.

00:26:28.059 --> 00:26:32.529
Um but I'm just grappling whether it makes sense to

00:26:32.539 --> 00:26:36.000
get more information. Because I think there's a lot

00:26:36.009 --> 00:26:38.289
of layered information. Sometimes, you know, we're

00:26:38.299 --> 00:26:41.459
not going to be able to get everything that we need

00:26:41.469 --> 00:26:44.880
from the city ordinances. And I mean, imagine some

00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:48.608
cities out there. That may not be as sophisticated in

00:26:48.618 --> 00:26:51.348
spelling out why they've imposed a limited purpose

00:26:51.358 --> 00:26:53.229
annexation. Oh yeah, we're going to be crossing this

00:26:53.239 --> 00:26:56.170
bridge, repeat over and over again. And so that's where

00:26:56.180 --> 00:27:00.088
I leaned on getting more information and having more

00:27:00.098 --> 00:27:02.809
of a defined framework. Um but I'm hoping to continue

00:27:02.818 --> 00:27:05.650
to hear feedback Commissioner Jackson. Yeah, what do they think?

00:27:06.368 --> 00:27:09.068
Well, I mean, to me, (item:3:53109, Commissioner Jackson's thoughts on Undine
Dev) I'm thinking about what's in the

00:27:09.078 --> 00:27:11.479
best interest of the consumer, but also for the companies.

00:27:11.489 --> 00:27:13.680
Because we want to make sure that they're successful.

00:27:13.689 --> 00:27:17.170
So that they can continue to provide water for the

00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:21.818
consumer. Um in terms of the um issue that you brought

00:27:21.828 --> 00:27:24.769
up between about water conservation. And uh whether

00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:26.989
it should be the residents or whether it should be

00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:29.068
on a square footage? Or whether it should be where the

00:27:29.078 --> 00:27:32.130
meter is? Um I know that, you know, particularly in

00:27:32.140 --> 00:27:35.269
rural communities. There is a concern that if you were

00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.509
to put it where the meter is. Then there could potentially

00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:43.709
be, you know, AAA long line kind of generated from

00:27:43.719 --> 00:27:46.479
the meter to the house. And so the actual consumption

00:27:46.489 --> 00:27:49.459
is occurring at the house and create something that

00:27:49.469 --> 00:27:54.789
is um maybe not what was intended from the onset. Um

00:27:55.838 --> 00:27:59.078
I think about, you know, is this going to be precedent

00:27:59.088 --> 00:28:01.519
setting? Because we're thinking about Austin, but there

00:28:01.529 --> 00:28:05.368
are also other parts of Texas where this could be um

00:28:05.660 --> 00:28:08.318
could, could become an issue. Because of course, Texas

00:28:08.328 --> 00:28:12.348
is continuing to grow and you know, is, is it just

00:28:12.358 --> 00:28:15.430
best to go as you know, both of you all have kind

00:28:15.439 --> 00:28:18.078
of recommended. Let's go get an attorney general opinion

00:28:18.299 --> 00:28:21.400
let's get it from the onset. I mean, that's kind of

00:28:21.410 --> 00:28:23.880
their business. Our business is right setting, but

00:28:23.890 --> 00:28:27.180
we have a lot of issues here associated with municipalities

00:28:27.189 --> 00:28:30.269
that are into it. And um you know, if there are a

00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:32.318
few things we could consider today that would help

00:28:32.328 --> 00:28:35.269
the company and the consumer to move forward, that's

00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.598
great. But um maybe go ahead since this is something

00:28:38.608 --> 00:28:42.608
that is um potentially new and precedent setting. That

00:28:42.618 --> 00:28:46.180
we from the onset. Go get the opinion from the Attorney

00:28:46.189 --> 00:28:48.868
General and then move from there. So, so you would

00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.390
err toward an AG opinion on the primary jurisdictional

00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:54.779
issue? Yes. It does, okay.

00:28:57.088 --> 00:29:00.549
And, and just looking at the maps that, that were submitted

00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:02.828
the attachments. It, it appears that some of these

00:29:02.838 --> 00:29:05.969
limited purpose, annex areas or you know where the

00:29:05.979 --> 00:29:09.390
dots are. Are straddling both limited purpose and,

00:29:10.078 --> 00:29:11.009
and um

00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:18.799
I guess ETJ. So there's still that question of what

00:29:18.809 --> 00:29:23.719
jurisdiction applies. It's going to split up subdivisions, it just is. Right. And so

00:29:23.729 --> 00:29:27.299
and the majority of the, the um connections that are

00:29:27.309 --> 00:29:29.420
on the maps are in limited purpose. But some of them

00:29:29.430 --> 00:29:32.509
do straddle in between two areas. So that's, that's

00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.068
also the issue that I think needs to, to be addressed.

00:29:36.078 --> 00:29:38.750
Because I, I don't I mean we can go either way on

00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:39.568
that but I mean.

00:29:41.250 --> 00:29:43.828
We could assert but it's straddling both. And, and I

00:29:43.838 --> 00:29:47.479
I am in agreement that where the, the premise consuming

00:29:47.489 --> 00:29:49.549
the service, where the service is being taken. That's

00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.098
that's where the connection is. Yes, because I, I agree.

00:29:53.108 --> 00:29:55.680
The meter could be very far away in the water world

00:29:55.709 --> 00:29:59.140
from the actual place where you're consuming the service.

00:29:59.439 --> 00:30:04.348
So especially out in rural areas. So the question that

00:30:04.358 --> 00:30:07.509
I have uh this would be to Steven. Um an Attorney General's

00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.680
opinion won't settle the law, will it? It's an opinion. It's

00:30:11.689 --> 00:30:16.170
it's their opinion and the courts, uh, give that opinion

00:30:16.180 --> 00:30:19.140
whatever difference that they choose to give it. The

00:30:19.150 --> 00:30:24.299
more they like it, the more they defer to it. Just like our decisions.

00:30:24.309 --> 00:30:28.078
But, but they do exist at referee to deconflict. I

00:30:28.088 --> 00:30:32.949
mean, they, help Opine on the harmonizing the

00:30:32.959 --> 00:30:37.318
various statutes and the various jurisdictional disputes

00:30:37.769 --> 00:30:41.000
Well, they, they give opinions when they're asked by

00:30:41.009 --> 00:30:44.059
the appropriate governmental entity. Uh, typically

00:30:44.068 --> 00:30:47.598
it goes to the authority of a governmental body to

00:30:47.608 --> 00:30:52.989
act oftentimes. Um but I mean, I also say there's,

00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.959
there's part of the value in the AGs opinion is

00:30:56.969 --> 00:30:59.420
they're looking at it from the entire landscape. Whereas

00:30:59.430 --> 00:31:03.719
we're looking at it from just, the case and water

00:31:03.729 --> 00:31:07.368
and wastewater, right? And like Will laid out nicely.

00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:13.009
It's, it gets into the rights and authorities of residences

00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:16.779
in, within different versions of limited, uh uh

00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:23.640
the limited territory. Which is kind of beyond the scope

00:31:23.650 --> 00:31:26.789
of what we do. That part is. Uh listen I, I'm

00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.479
ok with asking the Attorney General. It, it's not my

00:31:29.489 --> 00:31:32.979
preferred speedy route from point A to point B. I think

00:31:32.989 --> 00:31:34.799
if we ask the City of Austin, we know what they're

00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:39.279
gonna say. Would be my guest. Um and I would say, let's

00:31:39.289 --> 00:31:41.559
let's figure out the most expeditious way to get this

00:31:41.568 --> 00:31:44.959
case settled. And at least through our process on to

00:31:44.969 --> 00:31:47.328
the next process, whatever that may be. Sure, and I

00:31:47.338 --> 00:31:49.420
think it's also fair to say, if we, when we get an

00:31:49.430 --> 00:31:53.108
opinion back from the AG. We still have a choice to

00:31:53.118 --> 00:31:57.170
make it right. It doesn't necessarily dictate, uh,

00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:59.199
an outcome. It's, it's an opinion.

00:32:01.189 --> 00:32:04.939
And so we can go from there. Again, I don't think that we're

00:32:04.949 --> 00:32:08.430
in the business of giving away our authority and, you

00:32:08.439 --> 00:32:10.608
know, being told what authority we have and what we

00:32:10.618 --> 00:32:14.000
don't is not, we strictly get that from the legislature

00:32:14.009 --> 00:32:16.559
And obviously, the Attorney General can give us a view

00:32:16.568 --> 00:32:19.348
and the courts will tell, tell all of us if we're right

00:32:19.358 --> 00:32:22.318
or not. But you know, I'm of the opinion that we ought

00:32:22.328 --> 00:32:25.019
to stake the claim on our jurisdiction and be done

00:32:25.029 --> 00:32:25.318
with it.

00:32:27.289 --> 00:32:32.250
Uh appreciate the, the forward thinking and

00:32:32.259 --> 00:32:37.140
the, the assertiveness. Um as a, as a step towards that

00:32:37.150 --> 00:32:40.900
assertiveness. Can we start with the AG opinion? Um

00:32:41.019 --> 00:32:43.519
I would be happy to support my colleagues. I know you

00:32:43.529 --> 00:32:45.328
just want to get Austin up here to ask him about trimming

00:32:45.338 --> 00:32:46.088
trees, Jimmy.

00:32:47.858 --> 00:32:54.059
The um ok, so we'll, we'll for the broader issue and

00:32:54.910 --> 00:33:00.410
was for an opinion from AG. On the determination

00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:03.729
for the, the, the determinations that can be made today.

00:33:03.739 --> 00:33:06.390
What, what is in that universe do you all think. kind

00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:10.160
of obviously the exclusive jurisdiction over ETJ for

00:33:10.170 --> 00:33:14.729
the PUC. Uh and uh exclusive original jurisdiction

00:33:14.739 --> 00:33:19.309
over or for the municipality over its within its corporate

00:33:19.318 --> 00:33:20.289
boundaries.

00:33:22.269 --> 00:33:26.160
And on divided with the boundary divides the property

00:33:26.479 --> 00:33:29.400
with the residences with the, the lot size I guess

00:33:29.410 --> 00:33:36.880
the square footage. Um I'm a residence guy. I'm proposing residence. ok. And

00:33:36.890 --> 00:33:38.509
that, and that's somewhat in the universe I believe

00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:41.578
of our past precedent. I mean, we're, we're establishing

00:33:41.588 --> 00:33:44.739
that as we go in water, but. In this case, yes it's

00:33:44.750 --> 00:33:46.890
a residence because it's the subdivision. So it's the

00:33:46.900 --> 00:33:50.289
the location where the service is being consumed. All

00:33:50.299 --> 00:33:54.199
right. Uh And we'll establish the residence as the

00:33:54.209 --> 00:33:58.979
defining feature that determines the character of that

00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:03.779
customer. Yes. Anything else we want to add to that

00:34:03.789 --> 00:34:08.090
list? Uh and then the granting of Good Cause on 25,

00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:17.378
22.127, Subsection D. 16 TAC 22.127, Subsection D. OK

00:34:17.389 --> 00:34:20.530
Uh let's start out with first, like just do work. Let's

00:34:20.539 --> 00:34:23.590
do this in two motions. The first one for to request

00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.199
an Attorney General opinion clarifying jurisdiction

00:34:26.208 --> 00:34:30.648
of the Commission in City of Austin, regarding uh annexed

00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:35.418
uh areas annexed for limited purpose. And then somebody can

00:34:35.429 --> 00:34:39.967
be working on that second motion on that list. Yeah, well

00:34:39.978 --> 00:34:42.108
the second motion, the second part sir is. Where the

00:34:42.117 --> 00:34:47.590
boundary line crosses the middle of the residence in

00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:51.090
who has jurisdiction? That's the, that's the second

00:34:51.099 --> 00:34:53.949
part of that. Ok. Well, let's do the, let's do the

00:34:53.958 --> 00:34:57.329
request for the first, for the AG opinion first. So

00:34:57.340 --> 00:34:58.219
(item:3:53109, Motion approved to request an attorney general opinion) do we have a motion for that?

00:34:59.978 --> 00:35:02.679
So moved. Second. Got a motion and a second to request an attorney general opinion.

00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:07.208
Uh, we got a motion second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Non opposed.

00:35:07.668 --> 00:35:10.719
All right, the remains. What about the City of Austin?

00:35:11.378 --> 00:35:14.489
Do we need to make a motion that? AG opinion will bring in, right?

00:35:14.938 --> 00:35:16.849
Yeah, they'll be covered in the,

00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:22.309
this will be part of that AG. The comprehensive AG

00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.889
process. AG represents them too. Uh and then we get to

00:35:26.898 --> 00:35:27.179
this,

00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:32.418
get to the 2nd, 2nd part of this. The determinations

00:35:32.429 --> 00:35:37.898
we will make today about PUC jurisdiction over ETJ.

00:35:37.909 --> 00:35:42.429
Municipality  jurisdiction over areas within its corporate

00:35:42.438 --> 00:35:46.679
boundaries. And then finally if a boundary, if a boundary

00:35:46.688 --> 00:35:49.079
divides a residence,

00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:56.050
determination on what defines. Is that a fact in this

00:35:56.059 --> 00:35:58.489
case? That we need to make a determination on in this

00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:02.179
case? I don't know that we clearly know. We have no

00:36:02.188 --> 00:36:06.860
evidence in this case yet. All locations we have exhibits

00:36:06.869 --> 00:36:09.599
that have been filed in this case that purport to show

00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:15.000
right locations. Uh it's hard to tell with those dots,

00:36:15.010 --> 00:36:17.789
but it looks like some straddle. That's something we

00:36:17.878 --> 00:36:18.389
can look for the,

00:36:21.188 --> 00:36:23.840
yeah, if that issue needs to go to the AG. Uh

00:36:23.860 --> 00:36:26.530
there's if, if it exists

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.659
it. It's gonna be part of that because it's like the

00:36:32.668 --> 00:36:35.539
the AGS gonna look at. Okay, are they a voter?

00:36:35.550 --> 00:36:38.090
Um do they have recourse? who do they have recourse

00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:41.628
to? Um what constitutes that recourse? So a residence

00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:46.398
if you're a voter uh in Austin. Um, then that's recourse.

00:36:46.409 --> 00:36:48.769
they're gonna be matching up all those different laws

00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:52.539
local government code, utility or a water code. Um

00:36:52.550 --> 00:36:57.610
everything else. Right. Well, I, I don't want to speak

00:36:57.619 --> 00:37:01.708
for the Attorney General, sir. Um, they look at whatever

00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:04.570
they think they need to look at. I mean, clearly the

00:37:04.579 --> 00:37:08.309
local government code on limited uh, annexation will

00:37:08.570 --> 00:37:13.469
have to be looked at, um, The chapter 13 of the water

00:37:13.478 --> 00:37:17.369
code that specifies the jurisdiction of municipalities

00:37:17.378 --> 00:37:21.550
in this commission will have to be looked at. Um Beyond

00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:27.648
that. Um I'm not sure what they will look at. Uh, feels

00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:29.378
like something we can leave for the Attorney General.

00:37:29.389 --> 00:37:31.949
Let's just stick with the two. I mean, typically when

00:37:31.958 --> 00:37:34.918
you have uh jurisdictions and there's a boundary line

00:37:34.929 --> 00:37:37.340
it's real easy on that side of the boundary line. One

00:37:37.349 --> 00:37:40.478
jurisdiction uh is in charge and on the other side

00:37:40.489 --> 00:37:44.530
the other is. The, the difference here being that you

00:37:44.539 --> 00:37:48.429
have a third party that is providing a service and

00:37:48.438 --> 00:37:52.300
if that service is provided through one conduit to

00:37:52.309 --> 00:37:57.579
both sides of the, of the boundary line, uh It's impractical

00:37:58.260 --> 00:38:03.139
impossible for both jurisdictions to assert to set

00:38:03.148 --> 00:38:05.909
rates for the water going through that one pipeline

00:38:06.739 --> 00:38:10.360
Uh so I, I mean this, this is a novel type of

00:38:10.369 --> 00:38:14.789
question of, of boundary line jurisdiction. Uh I don't

00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:18.728
I'm unaware of any other place to look to, to try and

00:38:18.739 --> 00:38:22.289
uh decide this. I mean, so the AG I guess will

00:38:22.949 --> 00:38:26.250
um, we get creative. Yeah, I mean, it'll be interesting

00:38:26.260 --> 00:38:28.449
to see what they say. And I, I think that may help

00:38:28.458 --> 00:38:30.820
clear it up, depending on how far down the rabbit hole

00:38:30.829 --> 00:38:34.829
they go. On determining that jurisdiction or how broadly

00:38:34.889 --> 00:38:38.300
they stay. In terms of saying, this is, this is how

00:38:38.309 --> 00:38:41.849
we view uh jurisdictional determination between

00:38:41.860 --> 00:38:45.239
the competing codes. Again, it comes back to us. Right

00:38:45.398 --> 00:38:48.378
This is an opinion. Yeah, that's correct. So we'll have to redress

00:38:48.389 --> 00:38:55.159
that or address it. I mean, um deciding what is it

00:38:55.168 --> 00:38:58.099
that to which the utility is providing service and

00:38:58.110 --> 00:39:01.918
saying this to residents, it's just a different uh

00:39:03.070 --> 00:39:08.378
uh character of the same question here. Um but you

00:39:08.389 --> 00:39:10.989
have to, you have to have some definition here to go

00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.030
to the AG. And say, tell me what the law is

00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:16.289
under these, under these facts. If we leave any facts

00:39:16.300 --> 00:39:19.530
left laying on the table, they're likely to say uh

00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:23.760
facts involved we can't answer. Because they certainly

00:39:23.769 --> 00:39:27.438
they will not address the side fact issues in an opinion

00:39:27.449 --> 00:39:28.099
request.

00:39:33.898 --> 00:39:34.199
(silence)

00:39:35.958 --> 00:39:40.128
I heard Commissioner Cobos say leave that for the, leave that for

00:39:40.139 --> 00:39:42.878
the AG. And we'll stick with the 2 determinations

00:39:42.889 --> 00:39:46.510
on and we can take it up again. If they declined to

00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:51.559
address it or if they. All right. We'll leave it, leave

00:39:51.570 --> 00:39:53.239
it for the A G right now. We don't know what they're

00:39:53.250 --> 00:39:54.889
gonna say. We don't know how granular, they'll be in

00:39:54.898 --> 00:39:57.789
their opinion. Um, and they not address it at all.

00:39:57.809 --> 00:40:01.378
Yeah. Correct. All right. And we'll have a second opportunity

00:40:01.389 --> 00:40:04.090
at the district Court and probably at the Court of

00:40:04.099 --> 00:40:06.889
Appeals and perhaps at the Supreme Court.

00:40:09.340 --> 00:40:12.958
All right, just table that.

00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:17.369
All right. So how about, how about (item:3:53109, Motion approved on jurisdiction determinations) considering a motion.

00:40:17.378 --> 00:40:20.590
To provide determinations on certified issues related

00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.909
to jurisdiction to. The PUC has exclusive jurisdiction

00:40:23.918 --> 00:40:27.208
original jurisdiction over ETJ and the municipalities

00:40:27.219 --> 00:40:30.199
has exclusive juris, exclusive, original jurisdiction

00:40:30.208 --> 00:40:31.869
over areas within its corporate boundaries.

00:40:34.219 --> 00:40:36.989
So moved. Second. Got a motion and second on those determinations. All

00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:42.099
in favor, say aye. Aye. Non opposed, motion passes. All right.

00:40:42.110 --> 00:40:44.309
Thank y'all. I appreciate the through discussion. And most

00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:48.619
importantly, Jimmy's assertiveness. We're missing something

00:40:48.628 --> 00:40:52.599
here. Did we do Good Cause? I've said it three times

00:40:52.610 --> 00:40:55.679
but I'll say it again. (item:3:53109, Motion approved for Good Cause)  I would move to grant Good Cause

00:40:55.688 --> 00:40:59.869
uh to 16 TAC 22.127, Subsection D. And the requirement

00:40:59.878 --> 00:41:02.010
to issue a decision on certified questions within 30

00:41:02.019 --> 00:41:02.500
days. 

00:41:04.438 --> 00:41:04.918
So moved, I mean second. Got a motion and a second. All 

00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.050
in favor say aye, Aye. Non opposed. Thank you for catching that. That was a good motion. Thanks.

00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:18.699
Um and do you want the ED to sign this request

00:41:18.708 --> 00:41:21.469
for opinion or do you want?

00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:26.809
Sure. Instruct the ED. Um

00:41:29.010 --> 00:41:31.019
We'll, we'll get a signature from the ED or his

00:41:31.030 --> 00:41:34.688
delegate, delegated proxy. There we go. Does that require

00:41:34.708 --> 00:41:38.500
motion? (item:3:53109, Motion approved to delegate authority to the ED) Just do a motion, delegate to him. Motion to delegate authority

00:41:38.510 --> 00:41:42.320
to the ED or his proxy. So moved. Second. Got a motion and a second. All in favor, say aye.

00:41:44.309 --> 00:41:45.079
Aye. Um.

00:41:49.389 --> 00:41:53.398
Anything else? I'm, I'm being messaged that

00:42:07.909 --> 00:42:12.300
I don't understand. Is it the, the location issue?

00:42:12.429 --> 00:42:15.938
Well, he's not specifying. He's just saying the second

00:42:15.949 --> 00:42:21.168
issue. He's saying we did not certify the second

00:42:21.179 --> 00:42:25.128
issue. Which I think is the, if the.

00:42:26.878 --> 00:42:31.409
If the, if the residence is split, who has jurisdiction?

00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:32.929
Um.

00:42:35.260 --> 00:42:38.829
I thought that we were going to ask the Attorney General? That's exactly what we discussed. (inaudible). I thought that we

00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:40.128
were gonna ask that. So

00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:43.688
Yes. Ok, I'll just. And that should be included in the request.

00:42:45.309 --> 00:42:48.030
for opinion. That's what I understood. I just delete these irritating

00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:53.389
messages, ignore them. Okay. Okay. Do we address where the service

00:42:54.989 --> 00:42:59.090
where the? I think y'all agreed to residence, yes. Okay. Yes, yep. To answer that certified

00:42:59.099 --> 00:43:02.378
issue and that we will present to the AG is what

00:43:02.389 --> 00:43:04.378
we have decided. Okay.

00:43:06.019 --> 00:43:06.789
Um

00:43:09.458 --> 00:43:11.989
And the other fact is, I mean, the fact of this case.

00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:14.478
Is we're talking about a residential subdivision, so

00:43:14.489 --> 00:43:18.000
we, we will certainly is kind of limited to that.

00:43:20.898 --> 00:43:25.070
Wow, you ready for the next item, sir? Yes. Yes, please. Next item.

00:43:27.648 --> 00:43:33.110
Need more coffee. (item:9: 53926, Morgan Acres petition to amend Johnson County CCN) Item 9 is Docket 53926 is the petition of Morgan

00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:37.750
Acres to amend Johnson County said CCN. By streamlined

00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:41.780
expedited release. A revised proposed order was filed

00:43:41.789 --> 00:43:44.500
on February 7 of this year.

00:43:46.300 --> 00:43:50.429
Uh, thank you, Mr. Journeay. We uh obviously I filed a memo.

00:43:51.349 --> 00:43:53.869
Uh because (item:9:53926, Chairman Lake's comments on his filed memo) I believe there's, there is a question regarding

00:43:53.878 --> 00:43:59.119
the provision of service to Morgan Acres. That the argument

00:43:59.128 --> 00:44:01.378
from Johnson County, the service was provided because

00:44:01.389 --> 00:44:06.659
of the hydraulic analysis for the property. Uh seems

00:44:07.289 --> 00:44:13.079
uh in insincere to me in that. That the hydraulic analysis

00:44:13.090 --> 00:44:16.309
was only provided because Morgan Acres was told that

00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:21.469
was part of a nonstandard quest for release. Which

00:44:21.478 --> 00:44:24.228
of course Johnson County has no business determining

00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.510
release or anything else about CCNs. That's our,

00:44:27.590 --> 00:44:29.128
that's our authority, Jimmy.

00:44:33.019 --> 00:44:37.889
Thank you sir. Thank you for recognizing it. Uh and so, there's, there's clear evidence

00:44:37.898 --> 00:44:41.878
in the emails between the parties. And the only, so

00:44:41.889 --> 00:44:44.780
the only bottom line is. The only reason that Morgan

00:44:44.789 --> 00:44:48.219
Acres made the request for the hydraulic analysis for

00:44:48.228 --> 00:44:50.219
that property. Was because they were told that was a

00:44:50.228 --> 00:44:53.148
condition required for them to be released from that

00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:57.800
CCN. And again, Johnson County has no business making

00:44:57.809 --> 00:45:01.550
requirements or, or involving themselves in any way

00:45:01.978 --> 00:45:05.639
uh in release of a CCN. Outside of the proper PUC

00:45:05.648 --> 00:45:09.139
proceedings. Um are you sure you don't wanna ask

00:45:09.148 --> 00:45:09.309
him?

00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:16.010
I'll pass on that, I withdraw that. You wanna (inaudible)

00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:16.510
opinion on.

00:45:18.389 --> 00:45:23.478
Uh and so, and so as you can tell. Um the, my

00:45:23.489 --> 00:45:26.148
my view is that Morgan Acres never would have made

00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:27.949
a request for the hydraulic study. If they hadn't been

00:45:27.958 --> 00:45:31.329
told it was a requirement by Johnson County. Uh and

00:45:31.340 --> 00:45:34.929
so otherwise, all statutory requirements for release

00:45:34.938 --> 00:45:39.030
have been met. I think we should approve the proposed

00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:41.679
order. But that's, that's my starting point. Happy 

00:45:41.688 --> 00:45:44.128
to hear your thoughts and comments. (item:9:53926, Commissioner Glotfelty's comments on memo) I agree with you totally.

00:45:44.139 --> 00:45:46.849
And that uh, that the additions that you had in your

00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:50.438
memo ought to be included in the order. Um but I think

00:45:50.449 --> 00:45:51.260
you're right on target.

00:45:53.030 --> 00:45:55.159
(item:9:53926, Motion approved granting the petition for Morgan Acres) I would make a motion to approve the proposed order.

00:45:55.809 --> 00:46:00.800
Um granting the petition for um streamline expedited

00:46:00.809 --> 00:46:04.860
release with the changes proposed by Chairman Lake.

00:46:06.619 --> 00:46:08.579
I second. Got a motion and a second. All in favor say

00:46:10.099 --> 00:46:13.849
aye. Aye. Non opposed, motion passes. Next item, please sir.

00:46:14.289 --> 00:46:19.349
(item:11:54017, Park Water Co. to extend the time on rate application) Item 11 is Docket 54017. The application of Park Water

00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:22.378
Company to extend the time to file a rate application.

00:46:23.019 --> 00:46:26.039
In accordance with the Commission, a notice of approval.

00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:31.489
A proposed order filed on January 4, 2023, and the Judge

00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:35.699
filed a correction memo on January 23. Also, I have

00:46:35.708 --> 00:46:37.909
a memo with proposed changes to that order.

00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:42.688
Thank you, sir. Any thoughts, comments on this one?

00:46:44.929 --> 00:46:47.550
(item:11:54017, Commissioner Cobos' thoughts on Park Water Co.) I, I would be in favor of, of granting the good cause

00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:51.668
exception. To extend the filing of the rate case application

00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:55.250
deadline to um a date certain. However, but modify the

00:46:55.260 --> 00:47:00.000
proposed order to um include. Um, a date that would

00:47:00.010 --> 00:47:02.159
allow this company to file a rate case. That they asked

00:47:02.168 --> 00:47:04.800
for an extension. The their original application was

00:47:04.809 --> 00:47:07.938
due February 2022. They asked for an extension. It

00:47:07.949 --> 00:47:11.929
was due February '23. Their they, to my knowledge they

00:47:11.938 --> 00:47:15.719
still haven't filed it. Um we need, we need to have

00:47:15.728 --> 00:47:19.889
them do something. And, and because the original rates

00:47:19.898 --> 00:47:22.329
that were set were based on three customers. So the

00:47:22.340 --> 00:47:25.760
customers are paying like $112 base rate charge.

00:47:26.010 --> 00:47:29.050
So we need to get them to come in. And if not

00:47:29.059 --> 00:47:32.280
then we need to have Barksdale Enforcement open an investigation.

00:47:32.659 --> 00:47:35.719
So we can ensure that we figure out what's going on

00:47:35.728 --> 00:47:38.320
here. Because they have been adding customers since

00:47:38.329 --> 00:47:42.110
then. They're at 85 with an even growing number of

00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:46.418
customers. So, I mean they need to come in so that

00:47:46.429 --> 00:47:48.989
we can adjust their rate. Because it's based on, on

00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:51.590
three customers and the base rate charges are really

00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:57.030
high and then once they come in, then I think we need

00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:00.070
to have interim rates set so that we can lower these

00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:02.000
costs down. I mean, I don't know what other alternative

00:48:02.010 --> 00:48:04.159
we have. I mean, they're just gone MIA, I

00:48:04.168 --> 00:48:06.820
think. (item:11:54017, Commissioner McAdams' comments on Park Water Co.) But under what basis do you grant the Good Cause.

00:48:06.829 --> 00:48:10.780
They keep, they keep missing um their

00:48:10.789 --> 00:48:14.110
time certain days to file. They're not doing it. So

00:48:14.300 --> 00:48:18.648
we could deny uh the Good Cause and then have them

00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:23.119
come in in 90 days. 90 days you get your get filed.

00:48:23.128 --> 00:48:25.300
Well, we have an order that's requiring them to come

00:48:25.309 --> 00:48:31.590
in and so. Modify the time. Modify the order, you know, uh. Which I'm proposing.

00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:34.760
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I say deny the Good Cause. Because

00:48:34.769 --> 00:48:40.019
ultimately good you. Deadlines already passed. They keep

00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:43.938
missing it. Yeah, I know. I mean they gotta come in

00:48:44.539 --> 00:48:47.869
Oh, totally. How we get there, I mean that there is

00:48:47.878 --> 00:48:49.648
that nuance, right? Do we want to get grant a Good,

00:48:49.659 --> 00:48:53.519
Good Cause to our, to our order. Um get granted, and

00:48:53.530 --> 00:48:56.139
put a date certain, and order them to come in. Or we

00:48:56.148 --> 00:48:58.909
just, you know, deny the Good Cause and haul them in.

00:48:59.309 --> 00:49:00.938
Yeah, I mean, (item:11:54017, Chairman Lake's comments on Park Water Co.) I think the main point is we gotta get

00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:03.409
them in sooner rather than later. I think, feels like

00:49:03.418 --> 00:49:08.110
everybody's on board with that. Uh and I'm, I'm, it

00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:12.519
feels it, it doesn't feel right to grant a Good Cause

00:49:12.530 --> 00:49:16.648
exception. To a deadline that has already passed twice.

00:49:17.478 --> 00:49:23.728
They've missed twice for no reason other than they

00:49:23.739 --> 00:49:28.478
didn't want to do it. Uh so I'm just wondering from

00:49:28.489 --> 00:49:30.469
a legal perspective that that's the only thing that's

00:49:30.478 --> 00:49:33.949
because we have that order. And you can't really modify

00:49:33.958 --> 00:49:36.610
it, right? It's out there that's ordering them to come

00:49:36.619 --> 00:49:41.719
in February 23. And so they have to comply. That's

00:49:41.728 --> 00:49:43.918
that's the only reason I thought the Good Cause exemption

00:49:43.929 --> 00:49:48.110
was the way to go. So that we can then modify it

00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:50.050
and bring it in. But I, I don't, you know. That's a

00:49:50.059 --> 00:49:51.889
question for us. I think it's a great question for

00:49:51.918 --> 00:49:56.340
Mr. Journeay. Can we modify the order? Getting them in

00:49:58.148 --> 00:50:02.449
Can we force them to come in by within 90 days and

00:50:02.458 --> 00:50:04.409
not grant the good cause exception?

00:50:06.369 --> 00:50:08.708
Yes. There you go. Okay. Yeah, because it's a final order.

00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:10.550
It's passed the motion for a hearing process. It's

00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.050
final. Um so.

00:50:15.389 --> 00:50:19.059
It exists. It, it does, although that order ordered

00:50:19.070 --> 00:50:21.860
them to, to file within 18 months, in accordance

00:50:21.869 --> 00:50:26.010
with the requirements of our rule. Um and so I, I think

00:50:26.019 --> 00:50:30.500
really it's our rule, that is driving this. The rule

00:50:30.510 --> 00:50:33.559
they have missed the deadline in the rule. We discussed

00:50:33.570 --> 00:50:35.478
with y'all whether it's appropriate to grant Good Cause

00:50:35.489 --> 00:50:40.168
Exception. To extend the deadline that was passed uh

00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:47.809
last year. Um I think not but um, um. So they, they

00:50:47.820 --> 00:50:50.969
are required by our rule to file this or late. We can

00:50:50.978 --> 00:50:53.619
order them to file it. And you know, we have independent

00:50:53.628 --> 00:50:56.300
authority. To require utility to come in and file a

00:50:56.309 --> 00:51:03.550
case. Works for me. So yeah, so we wanna make sure procedurally.

00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:07.769
We have a good consideration. I appreciate that. All

00:51:07.780 --> 00:51:10.679
right. I think everybody's square on where we want

00:51:10.688 --> 00:51:14.300
to go. (item:11:54017, Motion approved to deny Park Water Co.'s petition) So I would move to that. We not grant Good

00:51:14.309 --> 00:51:16.708
Cause Exception to extend time for Park Water to file

00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:21.280
its rate package. And I would uh modify the proposed

00:51:21.289 --> 00:51:24.659
order to require them to file its rate, a rate case

00:51:24.668 --> 00:51:25.889
in the next 90 days.

00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:30.590
and approve the modified proposed order. You got a

00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:34.148
motion and a second? I second. We've got a motion and

00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:39.219
a second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Non opposed. Thank y'all.

00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:44.269
We don't have anything for 12 or 13, which I believe

00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:51.010
brings us to Item 16. (item:16:54042, petition for John Hancock Life Insurance Co.) Item 16 is Docket 54042 is petition

00:51:51.019 --> 00:51:54.929
of John Hancock Life Insurance Company uh and other

00:51:54.938 --> 00:51:58.059
uh affiliated companies for the declaratory order.

00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:02.708
Um, two proposed orders were filed on February 21,

00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:07.360
2023. One order would rule that the transfer of John

00:52:07.369 --> 00:52:10.510
Hancock's minority interest does not require the approval

00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:13.639
of the Commission. The other order would deny the request

00:52:13.648 --> 00:52:19.000
for a declaratory order. Thank you, sir. Um love to

00:52:19.010 --> 00:52:20.978
hear your thoughts and comments. (item:16:54042, Chairman Lake's comments on John Hancock Life) There doesn't seem

00:52:20.989 --> 00:52:25.728
to be any real controversy here. So I like the alternative

00:52:25.739 --> 00:52:28.039
proposed order, but look forward to hearing what y'all

00:52:28.050 --> 00:52:31.610
think. I, I agree. (item:16:54042, Commissioner Cobos' comments on John Hancock Life) I would deny the petition for declaratory

00:52:31.619 --> 00:52:35.079
order. Because the um there's not a real controversy

00:52:35.090 --> 00:52:38.090
here. Um existing between the parties that would actually

00:52:38.099 --> 00:52:40.590
be settled by a declaration by the Commission. And

00:52:40.599 --> 00:52:42.469
I don't think it's a good precedent for us to weigh

00:52:42.478 --> 00:52:48.469
in, in that manner. Agree. Agree. Wait, tell, tell

00:52:48.478 --> 00:52:53.378
me again where you're going here. I'm sorry. Um so

00:52:53.389 --> 00:52:57.789
essentially the, the there's been a request um by John

00:52:57.800 --> 00:53:01.750
Hancock and, and uh infrastructure investments. For

00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:04.679
a declaratory order from the Commission stating that

00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:08.010
they, we don't have to approve. I guess the sell of

00:53:08.019 --> 00:53:13.438
of, of the interest in Cross Texas to, to them. Because

00:53:13.708 --> 00:53:18.148
the parent company LS Power wants this certainty before

00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:20.458
they move forward. They won't sign on to the agreement

00:53:20.469 --> 00:53:23.599
until the Commission issues. They, they want comfort

00:53:23.610 --> 00:53:27.409
they want. Regulatory territory advisory opinion. And

00:53:27.418 --> 00:53:30.599
so this is not really the forum, you know, the kind

00:53:30.610 --> 00:53:34.769
of issue. That we under, you know, existing declaratory

00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:37.418
order, you know, framework. We, we don't issue out

00:53:37.429 --> 00:53:40.619
declaratory orders on this type of issue. Because there's

00:53:40.628 --> 00:53:46.269
no real controversy. You know I, I hear you. I understand

00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:48.489
what you're saying. I understand what Staff has said

00:53:48.500 --> 00:53:51.219
on this. (item:16:54042, Commissioner Glotfelty's comments on John Hancock Life) I just kind of fall down on the other side.

00:53:51.228 --> 00:53:54.300
Private sector needs certainty. You know, we talk about

00:53:54.309 --> 00:54:01.010
certainty in these things. To me, it's I think our

00:54:01.429 --> 00:54:05.070
Staff said to me. Do we give them a free legal opinion?

00:54:06.478 --> 00:54:12.878
What I would say is yes, that it's just not that big

00:54:12.889 --> 00:54:15.378
of a deal. It doesn't set that much precedent here.

00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:19.519
What we want is to attract capital to the state. And

00:54:19.530 --> 00:54:21.840
um we want the lowest cost of capital. We want people

00:54:21.849 --> 00:54:24.219
to be, we want to be a friendly place to do business.

00:54:24.228 --> 00:54:26.739
So I, I may be in the minority here, but uh I

00:54:26.750 --> 00:54:29.539
would, I would uh support the declaratory order.

00:54:32.269 --> 00:54:35.349
So I agree with everything you just said. The way I

00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:38.628
read this was that they treat. These companies are treating

00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:43.059
this as a removal of liability with the expectation

00:54:43.070 --> 00:54:46.280
that they'll go through with the transaction. If we

00:54:46.289 --> 00:54:50.219
if we, they they're removing, if we deny the declared

00:54:50.228 --> 00:54:51.418
declaratory order.

00:54:53.070 --> 00:54:56.438
That will remove any claim later on by any counter

00:54:56.449 --> 00:54:58.239
party saying hey, you should have gone back and asked

00:54:58.250 --> 00:55:00.989
for that. And so us denying it actually is a version

00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:05.300
of certainty in saying in their, checking their boxes

00:55:05.309 --> 00:55:07.438
and saying, hey, we checked with the commission, the

00:55:07.449 --> 00:55:10.809
commission said because there is no controversy in

00:55:10.820 --> 00:55:16.119
this transaction. We don't need to do this. Uh move forward.

00:55:16.128 --> 00:55:19.159
See how you're, how you're taking. That's the way I read it. It's the opposite

00:55:19.168 --> 00:55:21.489
side of the same coin. I think we've got a couple of

00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:26.619
those discussions today. That was my reading, it's open to interpretation.

00:55:26.628 --> 00:55:29.929
You know, I think we, we got to encourage folks to uh,

00:55:29.938 --> 00:55:34.849
to deploy their capital. And to, uh if we, I don't know.

00:55:34.860 --> 00:55:37.559
I just, I feel like this is not a huge lift in

00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:40.478
our opinion, in my opinion. And that it's something

00:55:40.489 --> 00:55:43.219
that we ought to do, but I'm. I agree with you on

00:55:43.228 --> 00:55:46.840
deploying capital and ensuring investment. I just think

00:55:46.849 --> 00:55:49.469
that if we get in this mode of issue now, regulatory

00:55:49.478 --> 00:55:53.438
petitions on these types of issues. We open the door

00:55:53.539 --> 00:55:57.320
for more to come. And the parties and the stakeholders

00:55:57.329 --> 00:56:02.918
need to be able to read our rules and statutory law.

00:56:02.929 --> 00:56:06.659
And, and make decisions based on, on our regulatory

00:56:06.668 --> 00:56:11.579
framework here. And can take this decision here back

00:56:11.590 --> 00:56:15.168
and, and take action from there. I mean, we can't answer

00:56:15.179 --> 00:56:18.849
all the questions every step of the way. (item:16:54042, Commissioner McAdams' thoughts on John Hancock Life) There's been

00:56:18.860 --> 00:56:21.090
a lot of these. I mean, and, and they, they run a

00:56:21.099 --> 00:56:26.648
broad gamut about declaratory orders on discovery adequacy

00:56:26.659 --> 00:56:30.938
and all kinds of huge universe of issues that could

00:56:30.949 --> 00:56:33.469
fall up under this. To where we would be constantly

00:56:33.478 --> 00:56:36.418
petitioned through a declaratory order process, which

00:56:36.429 --> 00:56:40.159
is a process. I mean, it, it, it takes up Staff time

00:56:40.168 --> 00:56:42.849
it eats up bandwidth and the facts will be changing

00:56:42.860 --> 00:56:47.340
all along that, that process. And um, I don't know

00:56:47.349 --> 00:56:49.599
I just, I, I want to be able to do these things

00:56:49.610 --> 00:56:52.599
but under the appropriate tool, consistent with established

00:56:52.610 --> 00:56:55.610
Commission, precedents and norms. And it seems like

00:56:55.619 --> 00:56:59.949
we would be repurposing ad hoc. A well established

00:56:59.958 --> 00:57:03.878
norm at the Commission to do this in this way. And

00:57:03.898 --> 00:57:07.550
uh there's got to be a better way. And all the parties

00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.570
agree that the Commission review and approval is not

00:57:09.579 --> 00:57:13.239
necessary. It's just, you know, LS Power wants a nice

00:57:13.250 --> 00:57:14.478
thing to have, right?

00:57:16.898 --> 00:57:19.559
And I think to the point is that I think that Peter

00:57:19.570 --> 00:57:23.860
made. (item:16:54042, Commissioner Jackson's comments on John Hancock Life) Is that by um you know, denying it, we actually

00:57:23.869 --> 00:57:27.090
are sending the message hopefully that they want. And

00:57:27.099 --> 00:57:30.099
my concern would be well, if you move forward and you

00:57:30.110 --> 00:57:33.289
did it and it's a good faith effort. Then that becomes

00:57:33.300 --> 00:57:36.128
the standard, right? And then everybody who's doing

00:57:36.139 --> 00:57:38.938
one of these later on said, well, maybe I wasn't gonna

00:57:38.949 --> 00:57:41.898
do it, but maybe I need to do it because, you know

00:57:41.909 --> 00:57:44.989
they, they did it in the past. So I think this is

00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:48.360
a pivotal time and we need to, we need to deny it.

00:57:49.059 --> 00:57:53.000
And I was the thing I was looking for here was, I

00:57:53.010 --> 00:57:55.708
think it's stated, all the parties have stated. That

00:57:55.869 --> 00:57:59.378
if it's denied, they checked that box and they're going

00:57:59.389 --> 00:58:02.849
to apply for an application for approval anyway. Uh

00:58:02.860 --> 00:58:06.099
which is, which is, which is why I say it's, it's like

00:58:06.110 --> 00:58:08.869
they're in some ways they're asking, does this, do

00:58:08.878 --> 00:58:12.340
we need a permit for that? We're gonna say no, no controversy

00:58:12.349 --> 00:58:17.378
like, ok. Um, so just uh checking it off their list

00:58:17.389 --> 00:58:21.898
and removing the potential uh, liability. Uh, I guess

00:58:21.909 --> 00:58:26.289
so. I, I, yeah listen this is a uh. This is a

00:58:26.349 --> 00:58:30.739
unique issue. Um, I just, I put myself in the, uh,

00:58:30.750 --> 00:58:36.809
in the shoes of the acquisition company. Um, and, um

00:58:36.898 --> 00:58:41.090
you know, we're, we're trying to find a method uh to

00:58:41.099 --> 00:58:43.719
invest in your state and they want assurances. You

00:58:43.728 --> 00:58:47.938
know, and uh this isn't a, a, an issue that comes up

00:58:47.949 --> 00:58:52.728
every day and in uh transfer sale ownership of uh,

00:58:52.739 --> 00:58:56.559
of utilities. And, uh, because it's a minority non controlling

00:58:56.570 --> 00:59:00.688
stake. So, um, uh, you know, to me it is, you know

00:59:02.090 --> 00:59:04.320
you know, not presidential. I think we always have

00:59:04.329 --> 00:59:07.159
the ability to deny a declaratory order that's requested

00:59:07.168 --> 00:59:11.898
of us. But again, then you're creating regulatory uncertainty.

00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:15.849
Well, but I mean, you have to be consistent on this.

00:59:15.860 --> 00:59:18.820
Otherwise we're, you know, we're careening from one

00:59:18.829 --> 00:59:21.059
side of it. Then the next one will give us the same

00:59:21.070 --> 00:59:23.099
declaratory order on that exact same issue with the

00:59:23.110 --> 00:59:26.208
exact same facts. That's the precedent. It's not the

00:59:26.219 --> 00:59:28.849
precedent that everybody who wants a declaratory order

00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:31.458
can come in and get one from us. Because these folks

00:59:31.469 --> 00:59:33.849
did. It's just, it, it's surrounding the circumstance

00:59:33.860 --> 00:59:36.750
of the individual case. Now, Peter, I didn't think

00:59:36.760 --> 00:59:39.860
about the order, denying the order gives them a level

00:59:39.869 --> 00:59:43.599
of certainty in its own, right, which I think is a

00:59:43.610 --> 00:59:45.780
unique, you know, point of view. It's something that

00:59:45.789 --> 00:59:50.208
I didn't consider that could be a value. And I agree

00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:51.260
with you completely. We need

00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:56.269
to put our uh put the hat on the hat of the

00:59:56.280 --> 00:59:59.260
investor. And in my mind, it's a conference room in

00:59:59.269 --> 01:00:02.840
diligence. And as, as the spreadsheet guy, I can, you

01:00:02.849 --> 01:00:04.208
know, they're sitting around a conference room going

01:00:04.219 --> 01:00:06.378
through diligence on this deal and some clever lawyer raise his hand.

01:00:06.469 --> 01:00:09.780
Hey, you better check with, check on this. Uh come

01:00:09.789 --> 01:00:12.918
on, you know, really gonna hold this deal up over that.

01:00:13.329 --> 01:00:15.898
But yeah, you gotta check that box, you know, dodge

01:00:15.909 --> 01:00:18.898
your I's cross your T's. And it's what, what all

01:00:18.909 --> 01:00:23.409
your deal lawyers do. And so anyway, that's the way I

01:00:23.418 --> 01:00:26.909
read it. As soon as, as soon as the Commission says

01:00:26.918 --> 01:00:30.050
by, by denying the declaratory order. They are officially

01:00:30.059 --> 01:00:33.438
saying this, there is no controversy in this transaction.

01:00:33.978 --> 01:00:36.708
And so then you investors and your spreadsheets and

01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:40.409
your, you know, your DCFs you official, you have

01:00:40.418 --> 01:00:42.340
the state of Texas saying there's no controversy in

01:00:42.349 --> 01:00:46.010
this transaction because they didn't do it, you know

01:00:46.019 --> 01:00:49.510
go forth. I mean, if, if that's what we believe that

01:00:49.519 --> 01:00:52.329
it, that a denial means that I'm for it.

01:00:53.929 --> 01:00:56.739
That's the, that's the, the fact that it doesn't have

01:00:56.750 --> 01:00:59.039
a controversy. If it, if there was, if we thought there

01:00:59.050 --> 01:01:02.610
was a real controversy, that's when we do step in and

01:01:02.619 --> 01:01:06.909
say, hey, we need to make a declaratory order. Um and

01:01:06.918 --> 01:01:09.590
so that again, that's, that's the way I read it. Uh

01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:13.148
and so it's a consistency with our, our rules, our

01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:17.809
statutes. But with the investor hat on, I'm, I'm or

01:01:17.820 --> 01:01:23.909
the lawyer. Uh I'm, I'm, I'm seeing that as, hey, if

01:01:23.918 --> 01:01:27.128
there was a controversy with this transaction, the

01:01:27.139 --> 01:01:29.820
Commission would have according to the statute. They

01:01:29.829 --> 01:01:31.800
have to step in and say we need to issue a declaratory

01:01:31.809 --> 01:01:38.659
order. Because they, if we deny it, um that by definition

01:01:38.668 --> 01:01:40.648
means there's no controversy with this transaction

01:01:40.668 --> 01:01:41.128
and

01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:45.469
makes it, that's even more belt and suspenders on the

01:01:45.478 --> 01:01:49.820
certainty. Um again, that's, that's, that was my interpretation

01:01:49.829 --> 01:01:50.128
of it.

01:01:51.659 --> 01:01:53.668
I mean, the parties have to read the statute and, and

01:01:53.679 --> 01:01:56.829
determine whether they need the approval. And I think

01:01:56.849 --> 01:01:59.449
we've seen in other cases where they want, they want

01:01:59.458 --> 01:02:01.289
to come in, they want to get our rolling up ahead of

01:02:01.300 --> 01:02:03.539
time so they can move forward. And that's just not

01:02:03.550 --> 01:02:06.030
the way it works. You have to read the law and then

01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:09.199
you decide whether you need the approval or not and

01:02:09.550 --> 01:02:12.438
and you go forward. And, and, and we get in the posture

01:02:12.449 --> 01:02:16.168
of issuing out all this comfort in between. Then we're

01:02:16.179 --> 01:02:20.449
sort of sort of hand holding and we, and we. And we're

01:02:20.458 --> 01:02:24.869
also providing regulatory, you know, backing to something

01:02:24.878 --> 01:02:29.320
that, you know, we may need to review. And so it's

01:02:29.329 --> 01:02:31.139
up to the parties to determine whether they need to

01:02:31.148 --> 01:02:34.800
file an STM. And declaratory order is a limited use

01:02:34.809 --> 01:02:37.239
tool. And I don't think we should expand it to just

01:02:37.250 --> 01:02:40.168
apply it to give folks comfort when they want the comfort

01:02:40.179 --> 01:02:43.389
they have. You know, we want to encourage investment

01:02:43.398 --> 01:02:45.909
we want to provide regulatory certainty, but declaratory

01:02:45.918 --> 01:02:51.938
order, that's a limited use tool. And the party should

01:02:51.949 --> 01:02:56.300
be in the position of analyzing the law and understanding

01:02:56.309 --> 01:02:58.309
whether they need the approval or not. And if they

01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:01.619
need it, understanding what, you know, regulatory risk

01:03:01.628 --> 01:03:03.500
they run. If they come in, if they have to come in

01:03:03.510 --> 01:03:06.659
for approval or not, I mean. Is this that, you know

01:03:06.668 --> 01:03:10.168
that they, there's there, it's, it's the business that

01:03:10.648 --> 01:03:14.228
that they're in, right? I mean, is that a fair way

01:03:14.239 --> 01:03:16.949
to characterize this? And do you look a little perplexed.

01:03:16.958 --> 01:03:19.668
No, they are in business and they are adults. Um they

01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:22.688
need to follow the law and come in uh with the fact

01:03:22.699 --> 01:03:25.360
pattern. Otherwise we need to take more, we need to

01:03:25.369 --> 01:03:28.128
scrutinize this more. I mean, these things will change

01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:31.579
on the way to final approval. And uh I, I'm not gonna

01:03:31.590 --> 01:03:35.030
preapprove anything. And exactly, so that, that's what

01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:38.378
you know, we're not pre approving anything today. We're

01:03:38.389 --> 01:03:41.929
just basically saying that declaratory order requirements

01:03:41.938 --> 01:03:44.219
the requirements that are necessary for the Commission

01:03:44.228 --> 01:03:46.610
to issue a declaratory order are not met here today.

01:03:46.619 --> 01:03:49.590
Parties go back and figure out if you need to come

01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:53.128
file an STM. The statute is clear and we'll go

01:03:53.139 --> 01:03:56.719
from there and then we'll, we'll review it when it

01:03:56.728 --> 01:03:59.139
comes before us. If they believe that it needs to come

01:03:59.148 --> 01:04:03.309
before us or, or not, if they believe that it doesn't

01:04:03.320 --> 01:04:07.039
have to come before us. But we're not blessing something

01:04:07.050 --> 01:04:09.829
today. We're only saying that this limited use tool

01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:13.110
is not the proper use of it here today in this case.

01:04:13.119 --> 01:04:15.449
Yeah. And I don't mean to imply that it's an approval

01:04:15.458 --> 01:04:20.478
of the STM and they said they will apply that

01:04:20.579 --> 01:04:24.610
file that application. Then we get the application part. I think

01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:26.958
the precedent we've said in the past and the statute

01:04:26.969 --> 01:04:29.429
says that we don't issue declaratory orders unless

01:04:29.438 --> 01:04:31.309
there is a real controversy. All the parties agree

01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:33.659
that there's no real controversy. And I think what

01:04:33.668 --> 01:04:37.168
what I'm, what I'm trying to say here is because there

01:04:37.179 --> 01:04:41.860
is no controversy in this transaction, pre application

01:04:41.869 --> 01:04:45.500
that's pre application. There is no controversy identified

01:04:45.510 --> 01:04:47.780
or apparent or an evidence on this transaction.

01:04:49.478 --> 01:04:52.820
We, we don't get into this. We don't do the declaratory

01:04:52.829 --> 01:04:56.898
orders unless there is a controversy. So by us denying

01:04:56.909 --> 01:04:59.128
the petition for a declaratory order, we are in fact

01:04:59.139 --> 01:05:01.829
saying there's no controversy in evidence or apparent

01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:06.489
in this case, uh which I, I think is helpful on the

01:05:06.599 --> 01:05:08.978
you know, the certainty side. But yeah, I, I, I, I

01:05:09.019 --> 01:05:12.289
I can see where you're going and I can support that.

01:05:12.300 --> 01:05:14.750
I would just say that um, the parties wouldn't file

01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:18.898
it if they didn't want it. Um it's a pesky deal lawyer

01:05:18.909 --> 01:05:20.619
in the conference room and everybody else is trying

01:05:20.628 --> 01:05:25.369
to get the deal done. I think. Um and, and uh you know

01:05:25.378 --> 01:05:28.728
I, I, I, I think we wanna encourage these transactions

01:05:28.739 --> 01:05:33.579
We want that capital in our state. And uh anyway, and

01:05:33.590 --> 01:05:36.269
I, I believe me, I sympathize with the investors trying

01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:39.168
to get it done. But those pesky deal lawyers want to dot their I's 

01:05:39.179 --> 01:05:43.539
and cross their T's. So, um I think we can hope

01:05:43.550 --> 01:05:45.938
hopefully help move that forward and then once the

01:05:45.949 --> 01:05:48.070
full application is in, we'll, we'll be able to consider

01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:51.139
it um under that part of the process. Does that work

01:05:51.148 --> 01:05:51.628
for everybody?

01:05:53.570 --> 01:05:58.780
Yes. Yes. All right. Does anybody have a motion they'd

01:05:58.789 --> 01:06:02.199
like to offer? (item:16:54042, Motion approved to deny petition) Um I would move to deny the petition

01:06:02.208 --> 01:06:08.780
for declaratory order. Second. And that the ALJ's proposed order doing

01:06:08.789 --> 01:06:11.750
such such action? Yes. All right. We got a motion and a second.

01:06:12.219 --> 01:06:17.478
All in favor, say aye. Aye. Non opposed, motion passes.

01:06:18.369 --> 01:06:23.889
Next item please, sir. (item:18:54348, Wind Energy Transmission Texas for Good Cause ) Item 18 is Docket 54348. Application

01:06:23.898 --> 01:06:27.030
of Wind Energy Transmission Texas for Good Cause waiver

01:06:27.039 --> 01:06:29.889
of rate filing requirements under Commission rules

01:06:29.898 --> 01:06:32.719
and adoption of a rate settlement. Do you wanna pull

01:06:32.728 --> 01:06:33.878
up the next one too, sir?

01:06:35.429 --> 01:06:40.750
Uh, sure. (item:19:54349, Wind Energy Transmission Texas for service credit rider) Item 19 is Docket 54349. It's the application of

01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:43.570
Wind Energy Transmission Texas for a wholesale transmission

01:06:43.579 --> 01:06:48.050
service credit rider. Um in both of these dockets

01:06:48.059 --> 01:06:51.449
the proposed order was filed on February 21. And in

01:06:51.458 --> 01:06:54.938
both the dockets, I have a memo with pro proposed changes

01:06:55.289 --> 01:07:03.349
uh to the order. Although I'm thinking that actually

01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:05.668
I only have a memo in the second one, but no, I

01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:06.989
have one in the first one too.

01:07:09.208 --> 01:07:12.918
Orders in both memos in both. All right, with that

01:07:14.059 --> 01:07:18.530
beautiful layout. Let's uh. If I got through

01:07:18.539 --> 01:07:22.550
a meeting, clean, you would be disappointed. We think

01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:25.969
something happened. Any thoughts or comments on the

01:07:25.978 --> 01:07:30.675
issue at hand? (item:18:54348, Commissioner Cobos' comments on Wind Energy TT) This is sort of what I thought was gonna

01:07:30.684 --> 01:07:34.804
happen after we took action on ETT and in granting

01:07:34.813 --> 01:07:37.155
the good cause exception for them not to file a rate

01:07:37.164 --> 01:07:40.405
case. So now you have another transmission owner utility

01:07:40.414 --> 01:07:43.293
coming in and asking for one but not only for a two

01:07:43.313 --> 01:07:47.659
year delay. Now, a four year delay. And so um there's

01:07:47.668 --> 01:07:50.918
two options and I'll lay them both out. And, and um

01:07:50.929 --> 01:07:54.128
the first option is you know I had suggested in the

01:07:54.139 --> 01:07:57.269
prior ETT case, we could deny the request for a good

01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.289
cause um for the good cause waiver and require tt to

01:08:00.300 --> 01:08:02.349
file an application for a rate case. And how this is

01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:06.409
different than ETT potentially. Um is that we s base

01:08:06.418 --> 01:08:09.239
rates have never been fully litigated. All of their

01:08:09.250 --> 01:08:13.139
um rate cases have been settled including its 2013

01:08:13.148 --> 01:08:16.189
case that set the initial rates for, for the company

01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:20.430
um, rate regulation. Darrell Teigen and team have identified

01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:24.569
in their November 2022 earnings report that what's

01:08:24.579 --> 01:08:27.199
overall, whether adjusted ROE's 11%

01:08:29.449 --> 01:08:33.560
compared to ETTs 10.05%. So there are

01:08:33.569 --> 01:08:35.909
distinguishing factors here where the Commission wanted

01:08:35.918 --> 01:08:39.310
to bring them in. We could, um, especially given, um

01:08:39.319 --> 01:08:42.779
rate regulations, feedback on, on where the company

01:08:42.789 --> 01:08:45.649
is right now. Option number two is we stay consistent

01:08:45.659 --> 01:08:49.368
with the Commission's decision in ETT case. Um, and

01:08:49.377 --> 01:08:52.868
and grant the Good Cause waiver, um, but only for two

01:08:52.877 --> 01:08:56.648
years, not four and include an ordering paragraph per

01:08:56.658 --> 01:09:00.408
my request in the ETT case that um, we t um

01:09:00.417 --> 01:09:02.719
must come in. It can't ask for another extension. They

01:09:02.729 --> 01:09:04.507
have to come in for the next rate case after the two

01:09:04.519 --> 01:09:10.328
years have expired. Um And I would, um, those are the

01:09:10.337 --> 01:09:12.698
two options I would lay out. There's an administrative

01:09:12.707 --> 01:09:16.430
issue in the back end, um, That we can deal with at

01:09:16.439 --> 01:09:19.140
the end, um, that the signatories have asked for us

01:09:19.149 --> 01:09:22.798
to, um, rescind finding a fact and ordering paragraph

01:09:22.810 --> 01:09:26.020
in the Commission's final order in docket number 50584.

01:09:26.029 --> 01:09:28.270
And we can address that at the end, but I just wanted

01:09:28.279 --> 01:09:30.439
to lay out the main two, I guess, decision points from

01:09:30.449 --> 01:09:34.458
my perspective. Which way are you leaning? Um,

01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:40.100
I mean, I recognize we're busy and, and I, I, I'm still

01:09:40.109 --> 01:09:42.350
concerned that we have transmission only utilities

01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:46.048
out there. Um Earning these really, we took such, we've

01:09:46.060 --> 01:09:49.149
been taking such due diligence in all our rate cases

01:09:49.159 --> 01:09:55.509
for non ERCOT utilities, um, ERCOT TDUs. And we've

01:09:55.520 --> 01:10:00.069
processed these cases. Um I, I feel like, I mean, from

01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:01.838
my perspective, I feel like we need to bring in the

01:10:01.850 --> 01:10:06.739
transmission only utilities and also adjust um based

01:10:06.750 --> 01:10:08.899
on today's circumstances where they should be from

01:10:08.909 --> 01:10:12.699
a financial standpoint. Um But, you know, I've tried

01:10:12.708 --> 01:10:14.829
to provide distinguishing characteristics as to why

01:10:14.838 --> 01:10:16.829
we would bring in wet and not ETT. But in my

01:10:16.838 --> 01:10:19.708
book, I mean, it's both should have been brought in

01:10:19.720 --> 01:10:23.229
but, you know, I recognize we're busy. Um I, if the

01:10:23.239 --> 01:10:26.930
if the Commission wants to um grant an extension, I

01:10:26.939 --> 01:10:30.539
you know, I, I would be ok with that. Um hesitantly

01:10:30.548 --> 01:10:33.100
like in the other case, but only for two years with

01:10:33.109 --> 01:10:36.539
an ordering paragraph requiring them to come in after

01:10:36.548 --> 01:10:37.720
the two years expired.

01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:40.359
Thoughts, comments?

01:10:42.449 --> 01:10:47.430
Thank you for that. Um I, I feel that, uh, (item:18:54348, Commissioner Glotfelty's comments on Wind Energy TT) that we

01:10:47.439 --> 01:10:50.958
ought to approve the settlement and tell them to come

01:10:50.970 --> 01:10:56.390
in by December 31, 2024. I think we need to. Um, I

01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:59.689
think we, we've had a couple of these extensions, uh

01:10:59.699 --> 01:11:01.949
where entities have not even come in and they're gonna

01:11:01.958 --> 01:11:05.430
they're, they're getting their extensions either by

01:11:05.689 --> 01:11:09.020
a good cause exception because they have agreements

01:11:09.189 --> 01:11:11.829
which it's great to have agreements. But we still owe

01:11:11.838 --> 01:11:14.319
the consumer the benefit of a fully litigated rate

01:11:14.329 --> 01:11:18.100
case at some point. And we just can't keep kicking

01:11:18.109 --> 01:11:21.819
the can down the road. And I think that's the important

01:11:21.909 --> 01:11:26.239
point that we approve the $8 million reduction in costs

01:11:26.250 --> 01:11:30.739
and then say thank you. Come on in. Come on down to

01:11:30.819 --> 01:11:33.649
me. Yeah. And I, and I figured this is where we would

01:11:33.659 --> 01:11:36.949
end up. That's why I came up with some modifications

01:11:37.060 --> 01:11:42.338
to the situation to where you want to go by having

01:11:42.350 --> 01:11:47.329
that hard, hard stop at, uh, '24. Yeah, two years, '24

01:11:48.140 --> 01:11:51.918
I think that's right. And, and do we have to Steven

01:11:51.930 --> 01:11:55.500
do we have to do something on the, the

01:11:55.509 --> 01:11:59.759
final order that has previously been passed. We need

01:11:59.770 --> 01:12:00.838
to not do something.

01:12:03.029 --> 01:12:05.689
We need to delete that order paragraph out of this

01:12:05.699 --> 01:12:08.520
proposed order. Rescind, ordering paragraph number eight

01:12:08.529 --> 01:12:12.109
from the final order. Uh, I guess that's,

01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:17.310
that's right. The signatories requested that we rescind

01:12:17.319 --> 01:12:21.220
finding a fact, No. 60, Subsection B and ordering

01:12:21.229 --> 01:12:23.708
paragraph number 8. In the Commission's final order

01:12:23.720 --> 01:12:25.569
in docket number 50584.

01:12:27.088 --> 01:12:29.810
That required WETT to file a base rate application

01:12:29.819 --> 01:12:34.939
by December 31st 2022. Um The proposed order should

01:12:34.949 --> 01:12:38.829
be modified accordingly to remove, um, ordering paragraph

01:12:38.838 --> 01:12:43.689
number two. Um I mean, I, I would deny that request

01:12:43.810 --> 01:12:45.350
uh from the signatories

01:12:46.909 --> 01:12:49.899
and what would be required to file a base rate case

01:12:49.909 --> 01:12:53.869
no later than I guess. December 31st 2024. (item:18:54348, Motion approved) That is

01:12:53.918 --> 01:12:57.859
a motion that sounds suspiciously like a motion. And

01:12:57.869 --> 01:12:59.819
you wanna add an order in paragraph that we will not

01:12:59.829 --> 01:13:02.628
entertain another request for. Yes, thank you. I was

01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:05.720
about to say that. I think like an amended motion.

01:13:07.779 --> 01:13:11.798
And I would second. Got a motion and a second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Non

01:13:11.810 --> 01:13:17.369
opposed. (item:19:54349, Motion approved for credit rider) Do we need to cover the credit rider? or I've

01:13:17.378 --> 01:13:19.458
heard a motion to approve the credit writer

01:13:24.048 --> 01:13:26.378
s ok. Sorry. Long motion.

01:13:27.899 --> 01:13:29.430
Thank you, Commissioner Cobos for laying that out.

01:13:34.289 --> 01:13:38.958
All right. Well, then I'll, we don't have anything

01:13:38.970 --> 01:13:43.239
else, I think until Item 26.

01:13:46.310 --> 01:13:48.418
Yeah. Uh,

01:13:51.298 --> 01:13:57.729
so this is related to ERCOT Vol Study. Um, ERCOT, what do

01:13:57.739 --> 01:14:02.819
you call the letter in response to a previous Commission

01:14:02.829 --> 01:14:06.088
discussion? Uh, I know Commissioner McAdams you have

01:14:06.100 --> 01:14:08.500
some thoughts on this. Would you like to lay this out

01:14:08.509 --> 01:14:12.909
for us? Um, well, I don't need my notes on it. Uh

01:14:12.918 --> 01:14:16.270
and, and we could just for the sake of, of clarity

01:14:16.279 --> 01:14:17.588
Mr. Chairman could we call

01:14:19.180 --> 01:14:19.708
Woody up, if he would?

01:14:26.899 --> 01:14:29.989
So, uh firstly, (item:26:53298, Commissioner McAdams' comments on ERCOT memo) I'd like to say that ERCOT filed a

01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:33.359
memo on uh I believe the last one was March 20. Uh

01:14:33.369 --> 01:14:35.838
Woody. Am I correct on the memo date?

01:14:38.359 --> 01:14:44.149
Yes. Yes. And it amplified, explaining a process and

01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:46.520
a list of determinations that they'll need in the near

01:14:46.529 --> 01:14:49.458
future on how to move forward with the reliability

01:14:49.470 --> 01:14:52.909
standard. It still breaks this process up into two

01:14:52.918 --> 01:14:56.750
approaches. One addressing the value lost Load which

01:14:56.759 --> 01:15:01.859
envisions a RFP should go out should be a package

01:15:01.869 --> 01:15:07.119
should be compiled and, and in, in my view, brief to

01:15:07.128 --> 01:15:12.088
the ERCOT board. Uh and then ultimately uh queries

01:15:12.100 --> 01:15:17.250
for potential bids issued um regarding a value of loss

01:15:17.259 --> 01:15:20.739
Load study within that study uh as articulated in the

01:15:20.750 --> 01:15:24.619
memo, you've got a comparison um uh set of analytics

01:15:24.628 --> 01:15:28.409
dealing with comparisons of values of loss loads, not

01:15:28.418 --> 01:15:31.689
just with an ERCOT but regionally uh within other 

01:15:31.699 --> 01:15:35.279
ISOs throughout the country and processes. Those I

01:15:35.289 --> 01:15:38.199
ISOs have followed in order to establish the value

01:15:38.208 --> 01:15:42.350
of loss, Load And then, uh secondly, within that piece

01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:46.229
of the framework, um a consumer facing survey that

01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:50.390
could be considered and then ERCOT needs to determine

01:15:50.399 --> 01:15:53.350
what that survey ultimately looks like what degree

01:15:53.359 --> 01:15:59.640
the granularity, the classes involved. Um So my request

01:15:59.649 --> 01:16:02.949
at, since I agree with the memo in all respects, in

01:16:02.958 --> 01:16:06.418
terms of the value of loss, Load proposal. I would

01:16:06.430 --> 01:16:09.939
ask that we direct ERCOT to move forward on the process

01:16:09.949 --> 01:16:14.529
outlined in their memorandum of March 20. And uh put

01:16:14.539 --> 01:16:17.899
together an RFP and then brief the ERCOT board and

01:16:17.909 --> 01:16:21.458
keep us updated on status as that moves forward if

01:16:21.470 --> 01:16:24.088
you are comfortable with doing so, the second part

01:16:24.100 --> 01:16:26.359
of the framework which I am not asking for action on

01:16:26.369 --> 01:16:29.609
right now, uh And we are awaiting feedback to Staff

01:16:29.619 --> 01:16:33.619
questions relates to the reliability metrics. Um And

01:16:33.628 --> 01:16:36.909
those metrics have been discussed at an April or March

01:16:36.918 --> 01:16:40.949
15th technical workshop. Um feedback has been received

01:16:40.958 --> 01:16:44.890
as to that, but then we're awaiting responses to our

01:16:44.899 --> 01:16:51.539
own PUC Staffs uh questions relating to um the metrics

01:16:51.548 --> 01:16:55.399
as well as how a reliability standard should be established

01:16:55.409 --> 01:16:59.759
moving forward. And so I'd ask that, you know, we not

01:16:59.770 --> 01:17:01.720
take that up at this time, continue to wait on those

01:17:01.729 --> 01:17:05.140
responses and then possibly deliberate on that in April

01:17:05.409 --> 01:17:08.430
But in terms of all, I think this is ready to move

01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:08.878
forward.

01:17:10.489 --> 01:17:13.189
Happy to hear. Yeah. Thank you for letting that out

01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:19.458
um any comments or OK, clarification. Uh The all of

01:17:19.470 --> 01:17:25.009
that makes sense to me. Um (item:26:53298, Chairman Lake's comment on ERCOT memo) And obviously, ERCOT can

01:17:25.020 --> 01:17:28.100
I think start taking and should, should be taking early

01:17:28.109 --> 01:17:31.029
cuts um on the

01:17:32.659 --> 01:17:38.259
initial baseline serving uh runs of the different uh

01:17:39.039 --> 01:17:42.529
kind of the first pass at frequency magnitude duration

01:17:43.069 --> 01:17:46.689
um and, and pending once we get more stakeholder feedback

01:17:46.699 --> 01:17:49.810
especially from the both the technical workshops at

01:17:49.819 --> 01:17:53.189
ERCOT and the PUC stakeholder process. Because we always

01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:56.798
run multiple thorough comprehensive stakeholder input

01:17:56.810 --> 01:18:00.539
processes that will inform a 2nd and 3rd and later

01:18:00.548 --> 01:18:05.770
rounds of uh scenario runs in the server model. I think

01:18:05.779 --> 01:18:08.140
that that's consistent with what you envisioned and

01:18:08.149 --> 01:18:12.369
the Board has envisioned uh in, in terms of the uh

01:18:12.378 --> 01:18:17.250
Vol study in an RFP to retain an outside consultant

01:18:17.739 --> 01:18:21.600
Um uh from what I understand, there's, there's, there's

01:18:21.609 --> 01:18:24.979
2 2 parts of that, the, the general magnitude of all

01:18:24.989 --> 01:18:28.770
and then the more comprehensive survey. Um it was just

01:18:28.779 --> 01:18:31.168
the only open question in my mind is that if we can

01:18:32.329 --> 01:18:36.509
it can a outside consultant be retained on the front

01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:39.140
end to conduct both. So one's not necessarily waiting

01:18:39.149 --> 01:18:42.859
on the other and it's not two RFP processes, it's

01:18:43.020 --> 01:18:47.600
a single consultant to execute on both. OK. And, and

01:18:47.609 --> 01:18:52.020
if we know, so I believe that's why the uh interest

01:18:52.029 --> 01:18:55.779
from that universe of consultants is gonna be uh instrumental

01:18:55.789 --> 01:18:59.750
in informing us as to whether they can do both. I hope

01:18:59.759 --> 01:19:02.279
that is still possible. Um I'm hearing peripherally

01:19:02.289 --> 01:19:05.600
through other ISOs that, that is so right. And so

01:19:05.609 --> 01:19:08.899
what do you, what, (item:26:53298, Commissioner Cobos' comments on ERCOT memo) what I understand based on my discussions

01:19:08.909 --> 01:19:10.869
with ERCOT and, and I have been busy with you directly

01:19:10.878 --> 01:19:14.970
about this. But the Vol study would focus on, on um two

01:19:14.979 --> 01:19:19.958
pieces, 2 2 part. Um One is at least what I understand

01:19:19.970 --> 01:19:22.970
anyway, is a literature part or uh component where

01:19:23.088 --> 01:19:26.869
there's some research done across all ISO RTOs as

01:19:26.878 --> 01:19:29.350
to where, what is the amount of the bowl in all the

01:19:29.359 --> 01:19:31.770
markets and, and in, in the United States and, and

01:19:31.779 --> 01:19:35.000
elsewhere um around the world. And then there's the

01:19:35.009 --> 01:19:39.560
survey component where um an actual survey would be

01:19:39.569 --> 01:19:45.159
conducted to um assess what bowl figures. Um different

01:19:45.168 --> 01:19:47.259
customer classes are comfortable with and then you

01:19:47.270 --> 01:19:51.619
sort of converge those to come up with potential v

01:19:51.779 --> 01:19:55.088
recommendations to the Commission. That's the way we

01:19:55.100 --> 01:19:59.319
are. OK? That work with consistent what you're thinking

01:20:00.869 --> 01:20:04.020
OK. That, that all works for me. Yeah, I, I, I just

01:20:04.029 --> 01:20:06.750
want to add one thing and um if I can on the

01:20:06.759 --> 01:20:10.079
reliability standard piece of it. (item:26:53298, Commissioner Glotfelty's comments on ERCOT memo) So I, I'm appreciative

01:20:10.088 --> 01:20:12.899
of all the work that Woody y'all's team is doing over

01:20:12.909 --> 01:20:15.279
there and, and the uh the input that they've gotten

01:20:15.289 --> 01:20:18.588
from the stakeholders and, and such, um as I had asked

01:20:18.600 --> 01:20:24.640
before, um for uh for ERCOT to work with on this um

01:20:24.649 --> 01:20:27.319
because they're doing quite a bit as well. Um I had

01:20:27.329 --> 01:20:29.619
reached out to Jim Robb, the CEO of NERC and I just

01:20:29.628 --> 01:20:33.208
want to read uh something that he wrote me back um

01:20:33.430 --> 01:20:36.369
and give this as more opportunity for y'all to, to

01:20:36.378 --> 01:20:38.689
reach out to them. But he said it's pretty clear to

01:20:38.699 --> 01:20:41.470
me the one in 10 standard is no longer the right metric

01:20:41.479 --> 01:20:43.918
Not only does it not reflect the increased value of

01:20:43.930 --> 01:20:46.759
electricity since it was established by PJM in the

01:20:46.770 --> 01:20:50.798
50's. Reserve margin analysis doesn't recognize the

01:20:50.810 --> 01:20:53.609
energy constraints that the fleet increasingly has

01:20:53.619 --> 01:20:57.168
to operate with I E. It doesn't take into account expanded

01:20:57.180 --> 01:21:00.039
uncertainties related to fuel supply, whether renewables

01:21:00.048 --> 01:21:03.659
or natural gas. So clearly what they are doing and

01:21:03.668 --> 01:21:06.159
what he says there is the exact issue that we're facing

01:21:06.168 --> 01:21:12.720
here. Um So he uh he offers um two folks in their

01:21:12.729 --> 01:21:16.329
office uh in their shop to be um uh to talk with

01:21:16.338 --> 01:21:19.338
us to talk with our, which uh they've also said that

01:21:19.350 --> 01:21:21.270
they've already had plenty of discussions with them

01:21:21.479 --> 01:21:25.819
Um And then they make note that um and Lawrence Berkeley

01:21:25.829 --> 01:21:28.418
National Lab are doing a significant assessment to

01:21:28.430 --> 01:21:31.060
update the thinking around the value of unserved energy

01:21:31.069 --> 01:21:33.199
So I would hope we could reach out to them and I'm

01:21:33.208 --> 01:21:38.180
I'm happy to help in that effort to help use that effort

01:21:38.189 --> 01:21:42.009
to feed the discussion. So with that, I'm totally on

01:21:42.020 --> 01:21:45.449
board going forward on all of this. And I think, yeah

01:21:45.458 --> 01:21:47.759
I think everybody's, everybody's in agreement that

01:21:47.770 --> 01:21:51.109
one in 10 is outdated and needs to be improved. And

01:21:51.119 --> 01:21:53.079
it sounds like ERCOT is already in communication with

01:21:53.088 --> 01:21:55.759
the two folks you mentioned. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe

01:21:55.770 --> 01:21:57.869
not those specifically. But yeah, they are, I think

01:21:57.878 --> 01:22:00.520
they're definitely connected and those lines of communication

01:22:00.529 --> 01:22:04.029
are open. Uh And if, if the, if there are contacts

01:22:04.039 --> 01:22:06.329
at the labs that you'd like to pass on to, I'm happy

01:22:06.338 --> 01:22:10.649
to please, please make that happen. Any questions or

01:22:10.659 --> 01:22:12.640
anything else you need from my understanding is go

01:22:12.649 --> 01:22:15.750
ahead and on the reliability study part, go ahead and

01:22:15.759 --> 01:22:18.180
start making the initial runs

01:22:20.529 --> 01:22:25.189
on your several models. Uh I'm prepared as long as

01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:29.829
Staff is okay? From Staff's perspective. Yes. So, I mean

01:22:29.838 --> 01:22:33.000
it, it's Staff's understanding that, that you already

01:22:33.009 --> 01:22:36.039
have um some modeling that you're prepared to run,

01:22:36.109 --> 01:22:39.789
but that will not preclude any additional input that

01:22:39.798 --> 01:22:42.479
the commission might give, you know, after the comments

01:22:42.489 --> 01:22:45.009
come in and, and that was one of my questions as I

01:22:45.020 --> 01:22:48.305
read through there, you know, how can provide additional

01:22:48.314 --> 01:22:52.064
feedback on additional scenarios that can be run and

01:22:52.074 --> 01:22:54.744
you know, after ERCOT does this initial cut? So it

01:22:54.753 --> 01:22:57.725
sounds like that's the desire of staff as well. Yeah

01:22:57.734 --> 01:22:59.904
And I think the the intention at least my intention

01:22:59.914 --> 01:23:03.194
is to run this process. Like we do every kind of product

01:23:03.204 --> 01:23:05.673
development process we want to start with the first

01:23:05.685 --> 01:23:09.494
cut, get feedback from the technical experts, stakeholders

01:23:09.503 --> 01:23:12.659
in improve run another round of analysis

01:23:14.189 --> 01:23:17.958
uh and continue get more feedback. Uh We'll get feedback

01:23:17.970 --> 01:23:21.509
from ERCOT board uh and leverage their expertise and

01:23:21.520 --> 01:23:26.239
experience uh and continue to iterate uh To, to drive

01:23:26.250 --> 01:23:28.409
to the best result. Does that work for everybody? And

01:23:28.418 --> 01:23:31.819
that, that would obviously start with the top of the

01:23:31.829 --> 01:23:34.529
funnel. The wider part having ERCOT start the first

01:23:34.539 --> 01:23:38.329
runs on, on the more comprehensive, you know, not one

01:23:38.338 --> 01:23:41.819
in 10, but uh server runs looking at frequency duration

01:23:41.829 --> 01:23:45.720
magnitude uh and start start that iterative process

01:23:45.798 --> 01:23:49.229
Does that work for everybody? Yes. And one question

01:23:49.239 --> 01:23:52.529
(item:26:53298, Commissioner Jackson's comments on ERCOT memo) So, um part of what you laid out in your program of

01:23:52.539 --> 01:23:56.949
work was um considered updating the serve model. So

01:23:56.958 --> 01:24:00.069
have you started that already? And where are you in

01:24:00.079 --> 01:24:03.609
that process to start making runs? So you, you've actually

01:24:03.619 --> 01:24:07.798
completed the updates? OK. And we have a working model

01:24:07.810 --> 01:24:11.159
ready to start work, ready to start making runs. And

01:24:11.279 --> 01:24:13.949
we expect this to be an iterative process. But in order

01:24:13.958 --> 01:24:17.399
to iterate, you gotta start with some start. So that's

01:24:17.409 --> 01:24:22.289
where we want to start that work with everybody. I'm

01:24:22.298 --> 01:24:23.539
all about this. Yes,

01:24:25.890 --> 01:24:29.509
true. Got a lot of assertiveness on this side of the

01:24:29.520 --> 01:24:31.859
table on this point before we leave the topic, sir

01:24:31.869 --> 01:24:35.350
and make final direction Commissioner. Uh, so it helps

01:24:35.359 --> 01:24:38.199
us because a lot of the ISO South West Power Pool

01:24:38.208 --> 01:24:40.588
uh, is doing the same thing that we're doing or is

01:24:40.600 --> 01:24:44.359
about to launch it. So, and we have brought up uh the

01:24:44.369 --> 01:24:49.048
lab s and also the, the n um uh personalities that

01:24:49.060 --> 01:24:53.399
we want to include if you have any studies or uh analysis

01:24:53.489 --> 01:24:57.319
If you would file that actually under uh this project

01:24:57.329 --> 01:24:59.369
um It would be helpful because I'd like to have a public

01:24:59.378 --> 01:25:01.819
document that I'll refer Southwest Power Pool folks

01:25:01.829 --> 01:25:04.439
back to. Uh because I think we're all talking about

01:25:04.449 --> 01:25:07.500
the same thing. So, yeah, that'd be great for my, I

01:25:08.479 --> 01:25:10.180
can refer him to the project as well. Yeah.

01:25:11.829 --> 01:25:14.479
All right. And then, so ERCOT Do you need anything

01:25:14.489 --> 01:25:19.509
anything else? OK. And so the next touch point will

01:25:19.520 --> 01:25:23.279
be um (item:26:53298, Chairman Lake lays out next steps with ERCOT) our next milestone will be getting feedback.

01:25:23.289 --> 01:25:27.560
The PUC Staff will synthesize feedback from stakeholders

01:25:27.569 --> 01:25:30.729
early April. And while in the meantime, ERCOT will

01:25:30.739 --> 01:25:34.819
be running the first iteration of the server runs.

01:25:35.520 --> 01:25:38.970
Uh And at the, at some at the appropriate point, but

01:25:38.979 --> 01:25:41.680
depending on how the calendar falls in April where

01:25:41.689 --> 01:25:45.539
the, the Commission will get feedback that synthesized

01:25:45.548 --> 01:25:52.270
feedback from Staff uh and briefings on the first round

01:25:52.279 --> 01:25:58.020
of, of server models. We we should have a memo synthesizing

01:25:58.029 --> 01:26:00.708
the stakeholder feedback and presenting to you for

01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:02.859
your discussion at the second open meeting in April

01:26:03.579 --> 01:26:07.850
at the second open meeting in April. OK. Um And in

01:26:07.859 --> 01:26:10.338
the meantime, the ERCOT board will have their board

01:26:10.350 --> 01:26:13.509
April board meeting at which point they can also um

01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:19.199
be briefed on the first round of, of model runs and

01:26:19.208 --> 01:26:24.689
provide their input to the process which is of significant

01:26:24.699 --> 01:26:25.250
importance

01:26:27.168 --> 01:26:32.168
line up with ERCOT processes that will be close, but

01:26:32.180 --> 01:26:35.729
we'll, we'll start work. OK? Sure. You might be asked

01:26:35.739 --> 01:26:38.270
about it by board members. So we'll have some type

01:26:38.279 --> 01:26:39.649
of update. It may not be

01:26:41.208 --> 01:26:44.640
as, it may not be actual model results at that point

01:26:44.649 --> 01:26:48.399
but it will be where we are in running the model and

01:26:48.409 --> 01:26:52.239
the, yeah, it's iterative. Right. Right. That's why

01:26:52.250 --> 01:26:54.699
it's important to get started. T Yeah, absolutely.

01:26:55.520 --> 01:27:00.250
All right, everybody. Good. Good, Miss Jackson. All

01:27:00.259 --> 01:27:01.489
right. Thank you, Woody.

01:27:03.680 --> 01:27:08.149
All right. I think the next item we've got is 26. Sorry

01:27:09.458 --> 01:27:17.259
We just did 26, I'm sorry. Uh, cost recovery for the

01:27:17.329 --> 01:27:22.289
distributed energy resources. Uh, from a discussion

01:27:22.378 --> 01:27:26.430
possible action. I know Commissioner McAdams and have

01:27:26.439 --> 01:27:30.149
comments. I'll let y'all lay the set the table if you

01:27:30.159 --> 01:27:34.918
will. Uh And Staff has approached, um, Staff, please

01:27:34.930 --> 01:27:37.729
identify yourself for the record. That way we can engage

01:27:37.779 --> 01:27:42.838
David Smeltzer. David Smeltzer for Commission Staff and Mariah Benson, Commission

01:27:42.850 --> 01:27:46.939
Staff. Thank you for coming. Um in, in order to sort

01:27:46.949 --> 01:27:52.009
of lay out (item:28:54224, Commissioner McAdams discusses Cost Recovery & Staff memo)  the Staff filed a memo. Um and that memo

01:27:52.020 --> 01:27:56.708
was dated March 16, 2023. Uh It laid out a series

01:27:56.720 --> 01:28:00.869
of um decisions and recommendations that they would

01:28:00.878 --> 01:28:04.449
uh that they've posed in order to help bring focus

01:28:04.458 --> 01:28:07.479
um for this project. 54224.

01:28:09.088 --> 01:28:11.829
I think they want to hear some deliberation from the

01:28:11.838 --> 01:28:14.708
Commission on some, some key subjects and I think that

01:28:14.720 --> 01:28:16.500
would be helpful. Uh

01:28:18.029 --> 01:28:21.239
Staff has a view, their view is completely understood

01:28:21.250 --> 01:28:25.189
by myself. They recommend that ultimately that the

01:28:25.199 --> 01:28:30.039
Commission Close Project # 54224. But I would, I would

01:28:30.048 --> 01:28:34.560
say um and this is teeing up this up for conversation

01:28:34.569 --> 01:28:37.720
and deliberation here, there's still questions related

01:28:37.729 --> 01:28:42.430
to the fairness of charges um separate and apart from

01:28:42.439 --> 01:28:46.369
cost allocation, which is broadly um asked as a part

01:28:46.378 --> 01:28:50.600
of this project. Um So there are several questions

01:28:51.128 --> 01:28:55.079
that relate to uh considerations within the Staff memo

01:28:55.458 --> 01:28:59.270
and therefore, um I believe it is in the public's interest

01:28:59.279 --> 01:29:02.489
to leave this project open. That's the first big question

01:29:02.500 --> 01:29:05.029
that is asked whether to close it out, right? Because

01:29:05.039 --> 01:29:09.180
Staff believes in and I don't want to put words in

01:29:09.189 --> 01:29:11.970
Staff's mouth. But I think broadly when this project

01:29:11.979 --> 01:29:15.810
was open, there was always a question of is this shifting

01:29:15.819 --> 01:29:21.319
costs um over to a what is becoming an increasingly

01:29:21.329 --> 01:29:26.378
smaller population of ratepayers that is becoming burdened

01:29:26.390 --> 01:29:29.418
by distribution level costs because so many people

01:29:29.430 --> 01:29:32.810
are being exempted out of them uh or especially a transmission

01:29:32.819 --> 01:29:35.989
level consistent with transmission level policy, some

01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:39.750
parties may be exempted out of certain costs. I think

01:29:39.759 --> 01:29:43.470
that's a broad, that may be overly broad. And I think

01:29:43.479 --> 01:29:46.039
there are nuanced positions and nuanced sub issues

01:29:46.048 --> 01:29:49.250
underneath that umbrella that can still be addressed

01:29:49.259 --> 01:29:55.930
on an iterative path depending on um depending on work

01:29:55.939 --> 01:29:59.789
in this project and then in other projects, and I won't

01:29:59.798 --> 01:30:02.708
name the other projects. So we don't cross in any agenda

01:30:02.720 --> 01:30:06.640
item issues. But the reliability standard is an important

01:30:06.649 --> 01:30:09.759
component to this this framework. And I've alluded

01:30:09.770 --> 01:30:12.989
to that several times that a reliability standard on

01:30:13.000 --> 01:30:16.708
the system becomes a policy driver for a number of

01:30:16.720 --> 01:30:19.798
related fronts including cost allocation at transmission

01:30:19.810 --> 01:30:26.048
and distribution um for DESRs. So let me

01:30:26.060 --> 01:30:29.239
kind of dive into the sub issues. I believe we can

01:30:29.250 --> 01:30:32.569
still address even within the confines of the questions

01:30:32.579 --> 01:30:37.390
posed to us by Staff's memo related to contribution

01:30:37.399 --> 01:30:40.009
in native construction. Because this is a sub issue

01:30:40.020 --> 01:30:43.189
on cost allocation. I believe you could still ask the

01:30:43.199 --> 01:30:46.909
question of should the calculation method be standardized

01:30:46.918 --> 01:30:52.039
across TDSPs? Okay. Is there an interest in applying

01:30:52.048 --> 01:30:56.869
a uniform standard? Because right now, um right now

01:30:56.878 --> 01:31:00.378
we've just adopted a nuanced position in an Oncor

01:31:00.390 --> 01:31:02.458
rate case. And that relates to another question, I'll

01:31:02.470 --> 01:31:06.418
ask about transparency behind uh contribution native

01:31:06.430 --> 01:31:11.289
construction invoicing and itemizing what those costs

01:31:11.298 --> 01:31:14.378
are so that when developers pay those costs, they know

01:31:14.390 --> 01:31:17.949
what they're paying for because uh current practice

01:31:18.350 --> 01:31:23.060
sort of veils the transparency of of those costs uh

01:31:23.069 --> 01:31:26.600
in a bundled format. So they, they don't otherwise

01:31:26.609 --> 01:31:30.850
know. Second question, should a screw up occur so that

01:31:30.859 --> 01:31:33.659
DESRs are paying for actual costs. That's that

01:31:33.668 --> 01:31:37.350
transparency. That's that line item uh aspect which

01:31:37.359 --> 01:31:40.180
we just did in encore, which is our largest utility

01:31:40.369 --> 01:31:44.350
So we've already taken that incremental step. So that

01:31:44.359 --> 01:31:47.548
feeds into, should that approach be standardized across

01:31:47.560 --> 01:31:53.600
all and then three the utilities. Uh well, and I'm

01:31:53.609 --> 01:31:56.390
and I'm sorry that goes to should they provide that

01:31:56.399 --> 01:32:00.810
line item invoice that more uh granular uh transparent

01:32:00.819 --> 01:32:01.619
format?

01:32:03.458 --> 01:32:06.729
And then 4th and finally, and this is more broad and

01:32:06.739 --> 01:32:10.069
this speaks to the heart of the broader cost allocation

01:32:10.079 --> 01:32:14.220
issue, but still could be a more nuanced and targeted

01:32:14.229 --> 01:32:19.180
version of it as it relates to the uh the monthly charges

01:32:19.810 --> 01:32:23.878
should cost allocation principles. Um consider how

01:32:23.890 --> 01:32:28.649
DESRs actually operate. Um And what parts of

01:32:28.659 --> 01:32:31.689
the system they actually use and where I'm going there

01:32:31.699 --> 01:32:34.529
is, for example, they mostly charge during off peak

01:32:34.539 --> 01:32:39.588
hours and um and our on dedicated feeders which they

01:32:39.600 --> 01:32:42.649
will have paid for theoretically under their contribution

01:32:42.659 --> 01:32:45.708
in aid of construction. So most of the cost they would

01:32:45.720 --> 01:32:48.689
have already paid for in terms of upgrade to facilities

01:32:48.699 --> 01:32:51.199
and any augmentation to those facilities that they're

01:32:51.208 --> 01:32:55.899
interconnecting into. But again, they are not feeding

01:32:56.009 --> 01:33:00.939
the demand side of the the necessity to upgrade the

01:33:00.949 --> 01:33:04.378
entire infrastructure because they are charging during

01:33:04.390 --> 01:33:07.298
that off peak time. So they're not driving up the peak

01:33:07.310 --> 01:33:12.039
Load capacity of that infrastructure. So should that

01:33:12.048 --> 01:33:17.350
be taken into account? And um on these views, I'd be

01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:20.270
interested to hear your thoughts because I think these

01:33:20.279 --> 01:33:23.458
are more targeted approaches that Staff could consider

01:33:23.470 --> 01:33:27.079
moving forward to at least inform a straw man that

01:33:27.088 --> 01:33:30.079
would elicit controversy on paper so that we could

01:33:30.088 --> 01:33:33.449
see the opposition, we could see the support level

01:33:33.458 --> 01:33:36.149
and we could still continue to make a determination

01:33:36.159 --> 01:33:40.390
ultimately, with a view toward high level cost allocation

01:33:40.399 --> 01:33:47.189
or the controversy around broadly cost shifting would

01:33:47.199 --> 01:33:50.619
wait until a reliability standard could be adopted

01:33:50.628 --> 01:33:54.250
by this Commission, which would tell us the ultimate

01:33:54.529 --> 01:33:58.259
benefits that these distributed distribution level

01:33:58.270 --> 01:34:01.329
resources bring to the system and thus could be paid

01:34:01.338 --> 01:34:02.588
for by the system.

01:34:04.128 --> 01:34:07.199
So I I hope that isn't clear as mud and I hope

01:34:07.208 --> 01:34:09.878
you can provide feedback on that. I appreciate you

01:34:09.890 --> 01:34:12.060
setting the setting the stage for us. Commissioner

01:34:12.399 --> 01:34:15.649
Glotfelty has some opening comments. I'm sure I do, I

01:34:15.659 --> 01:34:21.369
do. Thank you. Um First, uh, to thank Staff. (item:28:54224, Commissioner Glotfelty's comments on Cost Recovery & Staff Memo) Um I know

01:34:21.378 --> 01:34:25.128
it's not always easy to come up, uh, and, and write

01:34:25.140 --> 01:34:27.939
a, uh, a memo that you think two Commissioners, at

01:34:27.949 --> 01:34:29.779
least, you know, two Commissioners probably won't agree

01:34:29.789 --> 01:34:32.890
with. But, uh, I really appreciate the fact that, uh

01:34:32.979 --> 01:34:37.039
y'all were honest in this and that y'all um, looked

01:34:37.048 --> 01:34:39.270
at what you thought was right in the law as we see

01:34:39.279 --> 01:34:41.539
it today. I think that's really important and that's

01:34:41.548 --> 01:34:46.329
your role and I am grateful that you all pointed that

01:34:46.338 --> 01:34:49.199
out to us. I think it's somewhat our role to look over

01:34:49.208 --> 01:34:53.109
the horizon and see how the world is changing and how

01:34:53.119 --> 01:34:55.289
to create equity in the future. And that's where I

01:34:55.298 --> 01:34:58.470
come from a very different standpoint. Um, as I've

01:34:58.479 --> 01:35:01.159
continued, you know, to look at these issues over the

01:35:01.168 --> 01:35:05.208
last even two weeks since the T X U rate or the

01:35:05.220 --> 01:35:08.500
Oncor rate case that we discussed. Um I'm more convinced

01:35:08.509 --> 01:35:12.739
now um that we need, we need to reaffirm that storage

01:35:12.750 --> 01:35:16.500
devices should be treated like transmission um interconnections

01:35:16.509 --> 01:35:20.509
Um And because of their benefit to the whole market

01:35:20.520 --> 01:35:26.000
and thus to retail customers um in a study that was

01:35:26.009 --> 01:35:29.000
done by the Bridle Group um a number of years ago uh

01:35:29.009 --> 01:35:34.168
that looked at this issue. Um They said um a handful

01:35:34.180 --> 01:35:36.128
of things which I want to highlight. First of all,

01:35:36.140 --> 01:35:40.930
we all know that Load pays all the costs in Texas Um

01:35:40.949 --> 01:35:44.759
No matter what they are the ones who pay all the electricity

01:35:44.770 --> 01:35:49.838
costs. Um Bar none. Uh If we look at the netting effects

01:35:49.850 --> 01:35:53.239
of the benefits of distributed resources or dis distribution

01:35:53.250 --> 01:35:56.548
connected storage versus the cost, all consumer classes

01:35:56.829 --> 01:36:01.369
this report says that the customer in all classes wins

01:36:01.819 --> 01:36:04.020
and the bigger, the bigger they are, the more they

01:36:04.029 --> 01:36:09.418
win. Uh I'm happy to put this uh document in the uh

01:36:09.430 --> 01:36:11.659
in the record where it shows that if, if you all would

01:36:11.668 --> 01:36:16.430
like, these are all benefits uh that customer or the

01:36:16.439 --> 01:36:20.609
benefits include a decrease in wholesale prices across

01:36:20.619 --> 01:36:24.189
the entire state of our car. Deferred transmission

01:36:24.199 --> 01:36:28.279
and distribution upgrade cost, avoided distribution

01:36:28.289 --> 01:36:32.048
outages and improve reliability and improve power quality

01:36:32.119 --> 01:36:36.009
They are all, you know, could be multi billion dollar

01:36:36.020 --> 01:36:40.039
issues that benefit rate payers if we can avoid some

01:36:40.048 --> 01:36:43.739
of those costs, these are all benefits that the customers

01:36:43.750 --> 01:36:46.560
would forego if we did not begin to push storage at

01:36:46.569 --> 01:36:49.548
the distribution level. Again, as this report says

01:36:49.569 --> 01:36:52.779
it's very valuable. Um

01:36:55.850 --> 01:36:58.949
So it's my hope I'm gonna go out here on a limb

01:36:58.958 --> 01:37:02.798
and push this issue further to the right further to

01:37:02.909 --> 01:37:06.458
Uh this is a wholesale, these are all wholesale transactions

01:37:06.470 --> 01:37:10.259
that are happening irregardless of where distributed

01:37:10.270 --> 01:37:13.009
storage. Well, irregardless of where it's connected

01:37:13.020 --> 01:37:15.060
at the distribution level or at the transmission level

01:37:15.069 --> 01:37:18.378
they should be equal. So I would say that we should

01:37:18.390 --> 01:37:21.539
reaffirm that storage acts as a waste station. It doesn't

01:37:21.548 --> 01:37:25.140
generate anything. Ensure that all interconnection

01:37:25.149 --> 01:37:28.619
costs are borne by Load just like at the transmission

01:37:28.628 --> 01:37:32.560
level to ensure that it's non discriminatory, uplift

01:37:32.569 --> 01:37:38.270
these costs to T costs. Ensure that ERCOT, ERCOT And

01:37:38.279 --> 01:37:43.270
the TDUs can tell the market where these devices would

01:37:43.279 --> 01:37:47.470
be beneficial to the market. So having them help identify

01:37:47.479 --> 01:37:51.729
places where storage helps the system, just like where

01:37:51.739 --> 01:37:53.939
generation would help the system as opposed to hurt

01:37:53.949 --> 01:37:58.560
the system would be valuable. All of these things are

01:37:58.569 --> 01:38:02.899
you know, are important in my opinion for nondiscriminatory

01:38:03.220 --> 01:38:07.569
ge nondiscriminatory use of our system, we should treat

01:38:07.579 --> 01:38:12.000
all of them alike. I think as I've said, these private

01:38:12.009 --> 01:38:16.338
sector companies are risking capital in our state and

01:38:16.649 --> 01:38:19.470
we want them, they don't have a guaranteed rate of

01:38:19.479 --> 01:38:24.149
recovery time is of the essence in a past life. When

01:38:24.159 --> 01:38:28.029
we were trying to interconnect large generating plants

01:38:28.039 --> 01:38:30.279
at the transmission level, we came across a lot of

01:38:30.289 --> 01:38:33.399
these same issues and it was resolved and I hope we

01:38:33.409 --> 01:38:36.259
resolve this the same way. But I do believe they should

01:38:36.270 --> 01:38:38.628
be given the benefit of the doubt and be given itemized

01:38:38.640 --> 01:38:42.128
bills. You know, moving towards a standard Interconnection

01:38:42.140 --> 01:38:45.819
Agreement, they must not incur monthly charges, they

01:38:45.829 --> 01:38:47.859
need to be treated like other generators around the

01:38:47.869 --> 01:38:52.208
system that impact the wholesale market. So there,

01:38:52.220 --> 01:38:55.159
I would say that we want to encourage companies to

01:38:55.168 --> 01:38:57.180
deploy their capital here. And I think that these,

01:38:57.798 --> 01:39:02.520
these uh issues uh you know, merging them with, with

01:39:02.529 --> 01:39:04.520
Commissioner McAdams I think we're somewhat on the

01:39:04.529 --> 01:39:08.390
same page here um will make that happen and we'll see

01:39:08.399 --> 01:39:11.119
lots of Megawatt come at this distribution voltage

01:39:11.128 --> 01:39:13.378
and provide lots of benefits to our consumers. So to

01:39:13.390 --> 01:39:16.439
reframe the spectrum, what you just heard, you heard

01:39:16.449 --> 01:39:20.048
a middle of the road approach, possibly staff may uh

01:39:20.680 --> 01:39:23.689
on that if you'd like. And then you heard kind of the

01:39:25.659 --> 01:39:29.548
a broad based policy change that could be considered

01:39:29.619 --> 01:39:33.000
on an iterative basis. And that's why I suggest one

01:39:33.009 --> 01:39:35.628
the reliability standard is coming. We're, we're trucking

01:39:35.640 --> 01:39:38.009
along with that Woody's team is putting something together

01:39:38.500 --> 01:39:41.239
that off and we'll just kick that off. But eventually

01:39:41.470 --> 01:39:43.798
and, and soon we hope sooner rather than later, we're

01:39:43.810 --> 01:39:46.699
gonna have something to point to on a system wide basis

01:39:46.708 --> 01:39:50.270
in terms of determining benefit to the system which

01:39:50.279 --> 01:39:53.109
we give to quantify. And we will allow us to quantify

01:39:53.119 --> 01:39:57.029
it or theoretically give us tools to quantify it. And

01:39:57.039 --> 01:40:02.659
uh as such, that broad uh policy change could certainly

01:40:02.668 --> 01:40:05.449
be considered at that time in this project if we choose

01:40:05.458 --> 01:40:09.979
not to kill it today. Um And then those more nuanced

01:40:09.989 --> 01:40:12.199
issues which I'm happy to hear from staff if that would

01:40:12.208 --> 01:40:16.449
help and inform kind of your thinking on this, um could

01:40:16.458 --> 01:40:21.649
be asked now and help focus this this next smaller

01:40:21.659 --> 01:40:25.798
step on those issues of fairness that we think are

01:40:25.810 --> 01:40:28.560
worthwhile to at least be asked and then bring those

01:40:28.569 --> 01:40:32.220
stakeholders in to find on the merits. So that's kind

01:40:32.229 --> 01:40:37.149
of the framework. Uh I appreciate you identifying your

01:40:37.159 --> 01:40:40.878
your location on that spectrum. Uh Commissioner Glotfelty

01:40:40.890 --> 01:40:45.579
clearly had some extra coffee this morning. The, uh

01:40:47.119 --> 01:40:50.529
that's a long drive from Houston. I was here and a

01:40:50.628 --> 01:40:54.439
lot of Buckee's go, we can tell we can tell. Uh I

01:40:54.449 --> 01:40:56.369
(item:28:54224, Chairman Lake's initial comments on Staff memo ) appreciate you all laying that out. I know you all

01:40:56.378 --> 01:40:59.119
have both spent a lot of time on these issues. Uh And

01:40:59.128 --> 01:41:03.560
thank you Staff for digging into this. Uh and as always

01:41:03.569 --> 01:41:07.789
maintaining the Staff's role as independent advocates

01:41:07.798 --> 01:41:11.869
for consumers in Texas Uh, like Commissioner Glotfelty, he said

01:41:11.878 --> 01:41:15.560
the staff has their role of providing their opinion

01:41:15.569 --> 01:41:16.439
with commission

01:41:19.520 --> 01:41:22.619
and take that opinion among others for consideration

01:41:22.899 --> 01:41:25.720
But thank you for the hard work and the independent

01:41:25.729 --> 01:41:29.668
thinking and maintaining the appropriate role of staff

01:41:29.680 --> 01:41:32.458
in this, in this process and, and appreciate you recognizing

01:41:32.470 --> 01:41:38.378
that. Um So I think procedurally, uh I don't want to

01:41:38.390 --> 01:41:41.250
hear from the less caffeinated side of the table at

01:41:43.548 --> 01:41:47.918
some point. Uh But I think the, the first cut of the

01:41:47.930 --> 01:41:51.418
discussion today I think is, is to close the project

01:41:51.430 --> 01:41:54.479
or not. I, I think, I mean, closing a project doesn't

01:41:54.890 --> 01:41:58.850
doesn't kill for future deliberation on it. Uh But

01:41:58.859 --> 01:42:02.479
but there is clearly, I mean, this is, as we've said

01:42:02.489 --> 01:42:06.270
a nausea and this is a huge topic. We've got big decisions

01:42:06.279 --> 01:42:10.140
coming and big big milestones in the reliability standard

01:42:10.399 --> 01:42:14.359
So I personally need time to continue to, to digest

01:42:14.369 --> 01:42:18.319
information. Uh And I, I agree that under no circumstances

01:42:18.329 --> 01:42:21.390
should we make major policy decisions on this until

01:42:21.399 --> 01:42:23.859
we have the reliability standard and until we can get

01:42:24.279 --> 01:42:28.739
informed by the pilot project that is at least the

01:42:28.750 --> 01:42:33.890
early stages of it. Um And while there's some overlap

01:42:33.899 --> 01:42:35.569
it's not directly correlated, but there's certainly

01:42:35.579 --> 01:42:38.310
some overlap of resources at the distribution level

01:42:38.659 --> 01:42:41.310
Um You know, that's, that's a key part. If we had all

01:42:41.319 --> 01:42:43.439
the answers, we wouldn't need the pilot project. So

01:42:43.449 --> 01:42:46.439
I obviously want to see the results of that. Uh or

01:42:46.449 --> 01:42:49.668
at least the early early learnings from that. Uh But

01:42:49.680 --> 01:42:52.259
but for, for today's purposes, like I said, the first

01:42:52.270 --> 01:42:55.060
big, big cut I think is to keep the project open or

01:42:55.069 --> 01:42:57.439
not. I'm perfectly comfortable keeping it open. I think

01:42:57.449 --> 01:43:02.079
it's good to have a venue for stakeholders to continued

01:43:02.088 --> 01:43:05.119
I mean, we got a new study today, an old, a new

01:43:05.128 --> 01:43:11.890
old study. Um and, and t will always uh sometimes we

01:43:11.899 --> 01:43:17.458
agree with them. Sometimes we don't. Uh The uh so we

01:43:17.470 --> 01:43:20.029
we, and I'm sure there will be conti continued inflows

01:43:20.039 --> 01:43:22.838
of information and analysis. So having a repository

01:43:22.850 --> 01:43:26.649
for that, I think is productive. Uh with that being

01:43:26.659 --> 01:43:29.350
said, knowing that we do want to wait and do on the

01:43:29.359 --> 01:43:31.859
reliability standard, we do need some time to digest

01:43:31.869 --> 01:43:34.539
and, and get up the learning curve on this. I also

01:43:34.548 --> 01:43:38.539
think it's fair to direct Staff to hit pause on their

01:43:38.548 --> 01:43:41.588
efforts to keep the project open, but allow them to

01:43:41.600 --> 01:43:45.369
move on to the many, many other tasks that we have

01:43:45.520 --> 01:43:48.829
burdened them with. Uh So we'll have a standing repository

01:43:48.838 --> 01:43:52.560
under that contemplate a path forward. We'd have a

01:43:52.569 --> 01:43:57.060
standing venue and a repository for input analysis

01:43:57.069 --> 01:44:00.899
et cetera. But Staff can between now and the establishment

01:44:00.909 --> 01:44:03.409
of the reliability standard, which I think is, is we've

01:44:03.418 --> 01:44:07.119
all said is the next big milestone we need. Before

01:44:07.128 --> 01:44:09.470
we start making these big policy cuts, we'll have we'll

01:44:09.479 --> 01:44:12.798
have a venue for discussion, deliberation, contributions

01:44:12.810 --> 01:44:16.409
from all stakeholders. So in terms of keep the project

01:44:16.418 --> 01:44:18.399
the first big question today, keep the project open

01:44:18.409 --> 01:44:21.859
or not. That's where I'm, I'm sitting, I think we should

01:44:21.869 --> 01:44:26.289
keep it open, but also allow staff to, to get on with

01:44:26.298 --> 01:44:30.369
the other enormous list of things that we've given

01:44:30.378 --> 01:44:32.970
them to do. Um, any, any thoughts on that before we

01:44:32.979 --> 01:44:35.430
die. I know we've got a whole lot of other issues uh

01:44:35.439 --> 01:44:38.489
for deliberation. Any other thoughts on project open

01:44:38.500 --> 01:44:42.088
or close? Um, sure. Yes, I, I, I have some comments

01:44:42.100 --> 01:44:44.970
so it sounds like Commissioner McAdams is in the middle

01:44:46.319 --> 01:44:48.319
Commissioner Glotfelty to the far right. And the Chairman's to the

01:44:48.329 --> 01:44:52.100
far left somewhere around there somewhere. Well, in

01:44:52.109 --> 01:44:53.539
terms of like where, where we

01:44:55.409 --> 01:45:00.739
terrible statements, I'm sorry. Um OK. So, ok, I, I

01:45:00.750 --> 01:45:04.779
(item:28:54224, Commissioner Cobos' comments on Cost Recovery and Staff Memo) agree we should keep the project open and um a, a little

01:45:04.789 --> 01:45:06.869
bit of a different position somewhere in the middle

01:45:06.878 --> 01:45:11.949
of everybody maybe, or, or maybe closer to um Commissioner

01:45:11.958 --> 01:45:17.039
McAdams maybe um in some respects. So, you know, we

01:45:17.048 --> 01:45:21.579
we, I think what we're, what we're struggling here

01:45:21.588 --> 01:45:25.759
with is, you know, a very what could be a complex issue

01:45:25.770 --> 01:45:28.918
that I think um Commissioner Glotfelty raised. And

01:45:28.930 --> 01:45:31.729
I, and I think there's a lot in there to examine and

01:45:31.739 --> 01:45:34.930
that's a broader topic that I think at some point

01:45:34.939 --> 01:45:40.548
we do need to address. Um But at the same time, you

01:45:40.560 --> 01:45:45.048
know, we have a, you know, rapidly evolving grid and

01:45:45.060 --> 01:45:49.140
the distribution system is rapidly evolving and we

01:45:49.149 --> 01:45:54.259
have a lot of um resources on, on the distribute distributed

01:45:54.270 --> 01:45:58.628
system, distribution system. And, you know, we have

01:45:58.640 --> 01:46:02.850
the distributed energy storage resources that um I

01:46:02.859 --> 01:46:07.479
believe are um resources that we can harness a lot

01:46:07.489 --> 01:46:09.548
of benefits from. We, we don't understand a lot about

01:46:09.560 --> 01:46:11.378
them right now because they, they are new resources

01:46:11.390 --> 01:46:13.770
that are being added to the distribution system. So

01:46:13.779 --> 01:46:16.140
we're, we're trying to do this in a, in a way that

01:46:16.378 --> 01:46:19.918
um is mindful of reliability and cost to consumers

01:46:20.239 --> 01:46:25.149
And, and so I'm wondering if, because I, I, I think

01:46:25.159 --> 01:46:27.729
what we're, what we're really focused in here in this

01:46:27.739 --> 01:46:30.989
in this effort is at least initially is the front of

01:46:31.000 --> 01:46:36.930
the meter DESR um only uh resources um that

01:46:36.939 --> 01:46:40.100
that are, you know, that, that charge at night off

01:46:40.109 --> 01:46:43.829
peak. And so how do we look at at these resources and

01:46:43.838 --> 01:46:45.869
and where should we start if we, if we start looking

01:46:45.878 --> 01:46:50.640
at um issues um related to those resources? And I,

01:46:50.649 --> 01:46:53.600
I think we don't control when they charge, we just

01:46:53.609 --> 01:46:55.770
that's the standard business model. Exactly. So that

01:46:55.779 --> 01:46:58.970
that's their model. And, and so what we're looking

01:46:58.979 --> 01:47:03.020
at here is what, what can we do um in the meantime

01:47:03.689 --> 01:47:05.958
um because some of these broader policy issues that

01:47:05.970 --> 01:47:08.878
I think Commissioner Glotfelty um raised, I think from

01:47:08.890 --> 01:47:11.949
my perspective, I would like to examine further at

01:47:11.958 --> 01:47:15.359
some point. Um But at least I sort of see this as

01:47:15.369 --> 01:47:19.199
an iterative phased in process. And initially, what

01:47:19.208 --> 01:47:24.640
can, what can we target um and the contribution and

01:47:24.649 --> 01:47:28.369
aid in construction, you know, what, how can we um

01:47:28.378 --> 01:47:32.208
make improvements to that process? Um if necessary

01:47:32.220 --> 01:47:36.149
And is there, you know, standard allowances, you know

01:47:36.159 --> 01:47:39.500
what can the utilities standardize their allowances

01:47:39.509 --> 01:47:41.829
Hearing from the utilities, whether they can get there

01:47:41.838 --> 01:47:47.020
Can you have a uniform standard allowance? Um And then

01:47:47.029 --> 01:47:49.798
um as we took action in the Oncor rate case, we are

01:47:49.810 --> 01:47:52.500
we're already leaning towards more transparency on

01:47:52.509 --> 01:47:56.739
the, for the CIAC cost that these um resources are

01:47:56.750 --> 01:48:01.819
paying by requiring them to um pro provide utility

01:48:01.829 --> 01:48:06.418
to provide them with an itemized invoice. And so, um

01:48:06.759 --> 01:48:11.168
I think continuing that spectrum and into a, a role

01:48:11.180 --> 01:48:14.569
potential role is, is important so that we have transparency

01:48:14.579 --> 01:48:17.048
and the, and carry that forward from, from the rate

01:48:17.060 --> 01:48:20.069
case and, and have more transparency on those invoices

01:48:20.350 --> 01:48:23.298
And also I think there, there's an issue that I hear

01:48:23.310 --> 01:48:26.609
from, from the distributed energy resources of, of

01:48:26.619 --> 01:48:29.939
OK, they pay the CAC and they want to know what

01:48:29.949 --> 01:48:33.458
they're paying for but is there a true mechanism at

01:48:33.470 --> 01:48:36.970
the end where if they over, you know, what if the actual

01:48:36.979 --> 01:48:40.279
costs were, were less? Can they get refunded some of

01:48:40.289 --> 01:48:43.509
that money or if it wasn't enough, they'll have to

01:48:43.520 --> 01:48:49.289
pay more. And so how, how do you um more in ensure

01:48:49.298 --> 01:48:52.470
more transparency and, and equity there? If any, I'm

01:48:52.479 --> 01:48:54.939
not saying there's not, there's not equities or not

01:48:54.949 --> 01:48:56.628
I don't know, we just need to understand that more

01:48:57.189 --> 01:49:00.369
and then the monthly charges that the you know, trying

01:49:00.378 --> 01:49:04.739
to see what what in those monthly charges is already

01:49:05.520 --> 01:49:12.220
been paid for through a and then is there some kind

01:49:12.229 --> 01:49:18.739
of rate design that could be examined that would capture

01:49:18.750 --> 01:49:21.100
the unique characteristics of these resources that

01:49:21.109 --> 01:49:25.250
charge at night and are off peak? Um You know, is is

01:49:25.259 --> 01:49:28.409
there some rate design like time of use in their own

01:49:28.439 --> 01:49:32.359
class? Yeah, time of use style or some fixed component

01:49:32.369 --> 01:49:37.539
to transmission causation cause causation. Um You know

01:49:37.548 --> 01:49:43.310
what, what are some ways to sort of maybe design um

01:49:43.319 --> 01:49:48.239
rates those monthly rates uh that can capture those

01:49:48.250 --> 01:49:50.588
unique characteristics of the resources so that we

01:49:50.600 --> 01:49:54.409
sort of start unpacking from the CAC component down

01:49:54.418 --> 01:49:59.338
to the monthly delivery charge. So we add more transparency

01:49:59.548 --> 01:50:03.270
and more certainty to what's being paid for and what's

01:50:03.279 --> 01:50:07.628
what, what um the utilities are charging for? Good

01:50:07.640 --> 01:50:11.220
good questions all. Uh And I certainly will be the

01:50:11.229 --> 01:50:13.399
first to admit that I don't have the answers. I think

01:50:15.229 --> 01:50:18.298
I said my sentiments. Exactly. You know, I would say

01:50:18.310 --> 01:50:21.878
that uh as uh in my past life when we were interconnecting

01:50:21.890 --> 01:50:26.199
large generators, um we, we know the cost that the

01:50:26.208 --> 01:50:28.659
generator pays and we know from the step up transformer

01:50:28.668 --> 01:50:31.640
out is what the is what the TDU pays the

01:50:31.649 --> 01:50:34.600
interconnection costs if you have to have a back and

01:50:34.609 --> 01:50:38.918
forth and back and forth on refunds on this and that

01:50:39.009 --> 01:50:42.699
It, it's very, it just takes a long time. It will be

01:50:42.729 --> 01:50:45.930
you know, looking like some of our neighbors. All right

01:50:46.088 --> 01:50:50.168
So, um, the, the way, in my opinion, you put discipline

01:50:50.180 --> 01:50:53.159
in these costs is by telling the TDU that they

01:50:53.168 --> 01:50:56.939
have to pay for them and then they have to ensure their

01:50:56.949 --> 01:50:59.009
capital allocation that they're gonna pay, that they're

01:50:59.020 --> 01:51:01.109
going to pay for these. And if they need to spend capital

01:51:01.119 --> 01:51:02.989
somewhere else, they're gonna make sure that they have

01:51:03.000 --> 01:51:07.208
discipline in this space. And to me that's just the

01:51:07.220 --> 01:51:11.409
the, the best way to. Um I don't know again, I, I

01:51:11.418 --> 01:51:14.489
I fall back on the large generator. These are, these

01:51:14.500 --> 01:51:17.298
are small entities that play into the wholesale market

01:51:17.310 --> 01:51:19.989
the exact same way and that I think they should be

01:51:20.000 --> 01:51:23.850
treated the same way. So I, I remind just as an example

01:51:23.859 --> 01:51:27.770
OK, of how this could play out. Now, uh as it relates

01:51:27.779 --> 01:51:32.878
to a policy topic of mobile generation for distribution

01:51:32.890 --> 01:51:40.220
resiliency that we talked about. Um We made certain

01:51:40.229 --> 01:51:43.509
determinations based on the market is not fully developed

01:51:43.520 --> 01:51:46.489
yet on these resources at distribution. They weren't

01:51:46.500 --> 01:51:50.640
available to be rented to be leased. I think I'm in

01:51:50.649 --> 01:51:53.829
ok. Water here talking about this. That's not an open

01:51:53.838 --> 01:51:55.899
case anymore as I understand it. We haven't signed

01:51:55.909 --> 01:51:56.628
anything yet.

01:51:58.970 --> 01:52:04.149
Discretion may be the better part of. So, um markets

01:52:04.159 --> 01:52:08.149
for these uh resources has not been fully developed

01:52:08.159 --> 01:52:12.009
yet. And thus, but they do provide benefit that we

01:52:12.020 --> 01:52:16.949
saw in Austin's uh collapse. Well problems during winter

01:52:16.958 --> 01:52:20.560
storm Mara of their distribution system. So if more

01:52:20.569 --> 01:52:23.270
of these things start interconnecting at distribution

01:52:23.279 --> 01:52:26.869
then that market becomes available for lease by our

01:52:26.878 --> 01:52:31.279
TDSP systems that add to the segmentation and resiliency

01:52:31.289 --> 01:52:36.319
of the system. And um and this, we see a benefit in

01:52:36.329 --> 01:52:39.229
other areas. So certainly, I just want to add that

01:52:39.239 --> 01:52:41.560
atmosphere. I don't know about the check with Miss

01:52:41.569 --> 01:52:44.699
Jackson if she has any opening comments, I've got lots

01:52:44.708 --> 01:52:48.520
of, lots of notes, uh thoughts to share or clearly

01:52:48.529 --> 01:52:51.890
questions, great discussion, discussion. And I think

01:52:51.899 --> 01:52:54.449
um you know, (item:28:54224, Commissioner Jackson's comments on Cost Recovery & Staff Memo) this focus on reliability, I think is

01:52:54.458 --> 01:52:57.838
is paramount and I think that's, you know, the, the

01:52:57.850 --> 01:53:00.279
point I think that everybody made is that that maybe

01:53:00.289 --> 01:53:03.890
is our first step because certainly we want to incentivize

01:53:04.399 --> 01:53:08.100
all forms of generation and we want to make sure that

01:53:08.109 --> 01:53:11.270
everybody can come in and participate. And part of

01:53:11.279 --> 01:53:13.239
the way to be able to do that, particularly in the

01:53:13.250 --> 01:53:16.878
early stages of development is to send that message

01:53:17.029 --> 01:53:20.770
to investors that this is a market that we want them

01:53:20.779 --> 01:53:23.119
to come participate in. And that's good obviously for

01:53:23.128 --> 01:53:25.619
the consumer, but it's also good for the system as

01:53:25.628 --> 01:53:29.109
a whole. So I, I think to the extent that we can

01:53:29.119 --> 01:53:33.189
do is maybe you suggested let's work diligently on

01:53:33.199 --> 01:53:36.009
the reliability standard, see how that comes and, and

01:53:36.020 --> 01:53:38.819
plays into this. There's certainly reason to keep the

01:53:38.829 --> 01:53:43.729
project open and, um to kind of continue to think about

01:53:43.739 --> 01:53:46.250
all of the various aspects that we are, of course,

01:53:46.259 --> 01:53:49.338
primary focus and we've all said it is reliability

01:53:49.350 --> 01:53:52.628
is number one and we certainly need to incentivize

01:53:52.640 --> 01:53:55.458
dispatchable generation. But at the same time, take

01:53:55.470 --> 01:54:00.009
advantage of, you know what this, this service has

01:54:00.020 --> 01:54:03.208
to offer again, making sure that we're making sure

01:54:03.220 --> 01:54:06.020
that everybody kind of is participating as level of

01:54:06.029 --> 01:54:11.489
a playing field as we can. Well, but, um, anything

01:54:11.500 --> 01:54:14.020
else now, I know you want to get into the more granular

01:54:14.310 --> 01:54:17.588
OK. So at this point, everybody, OK, keeping the project

01:54:17.600 --> 01:54:22.569
open. And I think that I, I'm hearing lots of questions

01:54:22.579 --> 01:54:24.689
off. So I have lots of questions. So I don't, I think

01:54:24.699 --> 01:54:26.708
square nobody want, wants to make a big decision. But

01:54:26.720 --> 01:54:29.239
Jimmy, other than Jimmy, nobody wants to make a decision

01:54:29.739 --> 01:54:31.659
Jimmy's ready to make all the decisions yesterday.

01:54:31.668 --> 01:54:33.609
Um I don't, I don't think we need to make any big

01:54:33.619 --> 01:54:39.739
decisions today. Um The, uh, and, and like I said,

01:54:39.750 --> 01:54:43.548
I've, I've the 1st, 1st to admit, I've got a lot of

01:54:43.560 --> 01:54:46.838
questions and I need, I need some time to digest new

01:54:46.850 --> 01:54:49.029
old studies and all the, all the other information

01:54:49.039 --> 01:54:54.128
and, and in what we're going to receive. Um, and I've

01:54:54.140 --> 01:54:57.949
been, uh, we'll follow Commissioner Cobos lead by laying

01:54:57.958 --> 01:55:00.449
out questions. Uh I don't have answers to but I think

01:55:00.458 --> 01:55:04.338
they are important. Um The, just like anything we want

01:55:04.350 --> 01:55:05.529
to look at the, (item:28:54224, Chairman Lake's follow-up comments) I think we want to look at the

01:55:05.539 --> 01:55:11.119
pros and cons uh the, the, the, you know, storage resources

01:55:11.128 --> 01:55:15.020
that value. Um I'm, I'm, I'm still not sure about whether

01:55:15.029 --> 01:55:17.060
it's a waste station or not. Like natural gas is a

01:55:17.069 --> 01:55:20.208
waste station for BTUs to electricity. Uh You know

01:55:20.220 --> 01:55:24.668
I, I gotta work through that in my head. Um The so

01:55:24.680 --> 01:55:27.409
is coal. So nuclear fuel,

01:55:29.520 --> 01:55:33.539
the laws of thermodynamics are finite and non negotiable

01:55:33.930 --> 01:55:36.119
I don't know how exactly all that plays into how these

01:55:36.128 --> 01:55:40.119
rules and regulations would uh would need to, to fall

01:55:40.128 --> 01:55:44.850
out. Uh But certainly pros and cons of anything benefits

01:55:44.859 --> 01:55:51.000
of having uh distribution level generation when transmission

01:55:51.009 --> 01:55:54.588
system is not available is it is certainly helpful

01:55:54.600 --> 01:55:58.088
to the folks in that, in that area, in that neighborhood

01:55:58.100 --> 01:56:00.418
Um But I also heard that, I mean, the question is who

01:56:00.430 --> 01:56:04.029
picks the neighborhood? Um We have heard ERCOT picks

01:56:04.039 --> 01:56:07.619
them like that's, that gets, well, that's what, that's

01:56:07.628 --> 01:56:10.439
what Jimmy suggested. Well, well, I said that

01:56:12.029 --> 01:56:16.088
uh that's a potential out, potential way to designate

01:56:16.100 --> 01:56:21.310
where do these go. Um And that, that gets into, uh

01:56:21.319 --> 01:56:25.069
you know, the, the pros and cons of having uh distribution

01:56:25.079 --> 01:56:30.569
you know, the same resource, uh the same, essentially

01:56:30.579 --> 01:56:34.069
the same storage device at the distribution level versus

01:56:34.079 --> 01:56:36.399
the transmission level when we know the companies like

01:56:36.409 --> 01:56:38.029
it at the distribution level because it's quicker to

01:56:38.039 --> 01:56:39.640
hook up, it's a lot cheaper and you don't have to do

01:56:39.649 --> 01:56:42.729
all the studies and they're all 9.9 megawatts. Um But

01:56:42.739 --> 01:56:45.609
if we are truly going to make an equal, maybe they

01:56:45.619 --> 01:56:48.168
need to do all the interconnect studies and they need

01:56:48.180 --> 01:56:51.560
to have if it's truly going to be equal then and especially

01:56:51.569 --> 01:56:54.208
if we're going to get lots of them all of this, you

01:56:54.220 --> 01:56:56.529
know what happens? They're kind of cute when there

01:56:56.539 --> 01:56:58.899
are a few of them and it's only one or two players

01:56:58.909 --> 01:57:01.829
but as that market matures and there are thousands

01:57:01.838 --> 01:57:06.838
of them that has a different impact on grid operations

01:57:06.850 --> 01:57:09.189
and balancing. I don't know the answer to that, but

01:57:09.199 --> 01:57:11.810
that's something we certainly need to hear from ERCOT

01:57:11.819 --> 01:57:12.759
at some point on

01:57:14.640 --> 01:57:19.298
and, and do we? Well, I been Yeah, sure. As a, as

01:57:19.310 --> 01:57:21.600
a business operator or investor, I'd love to do the

01:57:21.609 --> 01:57:24.220
version where it's the same resource, especially if

01:57:24.229 --> 01:57:27.930
I have uh access to higher L L MP s in, in

01:57:27.939 --> 01:57:30.168
the event of outages, right? That those higher L MP

01:57:30.180 --> 01:57:33.628
prices is the market saying we need more resources

01:57:33.640 --> 01:57:37.829
in this pocket. Uh But from the grid reliability standpoint

01:57:38.899 --> 01:57:42.350
do I want is that that's better that business I I pay

01:57:42.359 --> 01:57:44.949
less money, I hook up if, if, if some of these things

01:57:44.958 --> 01:57:47.350
come to pass, I pay a lot less money at the distribution

01:57:47.359 --> 01:57:50.789
level and I get hooked up quicker because I'm 9.9 Megawatt

01:57:50.798 --> 01:57:54.430
instead of the, the evil 10 megawatts. So sure, that's

01:57:54.439 --> 01:57:56.449
that's great from a business perspective. But from

01:57:56.458 --> 01:58:00.029
grid reliability, do we want more at the distribution

01:58:00.039 --> 01:58:03.229
level that may not have the same ability to help the

01:58:03.239 --> 01:58:06.569
broader system? And what are those, how do those costs

01:58:06.579 --> 01:58:09.020
and benefits lay out? I don't know. And I encourage

01:58:09.029 --> 01:58:12.128
you to read this report after I file it because it

01:58:12.140 --> 01:58:15.250
shows exactly the opposite of that, that at the distribution

01:58:15.259 --> 01:58:18.659
level, they do provide system benefits across the entirety

01:58:18.668 --> 01:58:23.628
of the system. So just those, that's the, you know

01:58:23.640 --> 01:58:26.798
a new, new, old study and like I said, I need time

01:58:26.810 --> 01:58:29.918
to digest all this. But do they say, do they provide

01:58:29.930 --> 01:58:33.128
better, more benefits than the equivalent of the transmission

01:58:33.140 --> 01:58:36.720
level? I don't know because, because by definition

01:58:36.729 --> 01:58:40.930
if they're providing benefits to the local consumers

01:58:40.939 --> 01:58:44.810
because they can't, there's constraints or restrictions

01:58:44.819 --> 01:58:47.039
at the transmission level, then they're by definition

01:58:47.048 --> 01:58:49.500
not helping everybody else on the system. They're helping

01:58:49.520 --> 01:58:52.579
in the city of Austin debacle. They, they're helping

01:58:52.588 --> 01:58:54.359
people in Austin, which is great for those people.

01:58:54.369 --> 01:58:56.430
But then how do we pick which neighborhoods? And again

01:58:56.439 --> 01:58:59.319
just questions, I don't know the answers to and I look

01:58:59.329 --> 01:59:01.270
forward to hearing from lots of smart people and reading

01:59:01.279 --> 01:59:05.449
lots of analysis on it. Um But, but we businesses just

01:59:05.458 --> 01:59:07.548
because they want the shorter cheaper version to hook

01:59:07.560 --> 01:59:10.579
up. This, our job is to provide certainty in a level

01:59:10.588 --> 01:59:13.100
playing field but also grid reliability. What's the

01:59:13.109 --> 01:59:16.579
benefits of too many? Is there such thing as too many

01:59:16.588 --> 01:59:19.449
storage devices at the distribution level? What's the

01:59:19.458 --> 01:59:21.838
do we want to balance? I have no idea. But I think

01:59:21.850 --> 01:59:25.189
these are important questions to ask and get answers

01:59:25.199 --> 01:59:30.359
to. Um the uh the cost shifting concerns are, again

01:59:30.369 --> 01:59:33.069
I don't, I don't know the answers to. Uh California

01:59:33.079 --> 01:59:35.668
is learning some hard lessons and it's not a direct

01:59:35.680 --> 01:59:39.520
comparison, but it's analogous distribution level.

01:59:39.529 --> 01:59:44.079
Uh And especially in our, our transmission cost distribution

01:59:44.569 --> 01:59:48.250
and especially if the benefits, whether it's the Austin

01:59:48.259 --> 01:59:52.350
debacle or hurricanes or those, those specific neighborhoods

01:59:52.359 --> 01:59:55.399
are benefiting from having that storage resource, which

01:59:55.409 --> 02:00:00.259
is a huge benefit to them, but they're also not consuming

02:00:00.699 --> 02:00:04.569
Load from the transmission systems perspective if they've

02:00:04.579 --> 02:00:08.899
been cut off from it. And so thus those consumers are

02:00:08.909 --> 02:00:11.449
reducing their t cost just like an industrial flexible

02:00:11.458 --> 02:00:15.220
Load Again, I, I don't know how all this shakes out

02:00:15.229 --> 02:00:18.199
but that's, that's the point of asking the questions

02:00:18.208 --> 02:00:20.189
and making sure that we think through these things

02:00:20.649 --> 02:00:22.720
I mean, my goal is to make sure we think through these

02:00:22.729 --> 02:00:26.789
things before we start open the floodgates of plugging

02:00:26.798 --> 02:00:31.199
all the, all of these in. Um And, and finally, the

02:00:31.208 --> 02:00:36.390
um the, you know, if we want to make them equal uh

02:00:36.399 --> 02:00:40.850
to generators on the uh at the transmission level.

02:00:40.859 --> 02:00:43.029
How does, what kind of command and control does RUC

02:00:43.109 --> 02:00:47.079
need? Um It's again, it's there, you know, a couple

02:00:47.088 --> 02:00:50.569
of 9.9 s here and there is, is one thing. But when

02:00:51.259 --> 02:00:54.289
if the floodgates truly open, which, which may be a

02:00:54.298 --> 02:00:59.168
good thing. I don't, I don't know the answer. What

02:00:59.180 --> 02:01:02.009
kind of does ERCOT need to have? What level of command

02:01:02.020 --> 02:01:04.279
and control does ERCOT need to have at the distribution

02:01:04.289 --> 02:01:07.869
level in order to properly balance the grid and fully

02:01:07.878 --> 02:01:11.470
fully utilize the benefits of all of these distribution

02:01:11.479 --> 02:01:15.569
level resources because right now those DSPs and those

02:01:15.579 --> 02:01:18.560
those transmission operators have no idea what's going

02:01:18.569 --> 02:01:22.359
on next door. And that's, we've seen some examples

02:01:22.369 --> 02:01:26.369
of that recently. And right now the solution is picking

02:01:26.378 --> 02:01:30.390
up the phone. Um And sometimes that's my phone which

02:01:30.399 --> 02:01:34.409
is not the way it should work. Uh And, and so I

02:01:34.418 --> 02:01:38.449
again, with the, the focus on always on reliability

02:01:39.009 --> 02:01:41.229
wanna make sure we think through these things before

02:01:41.239 --> 02:01:44.628
the floodgates open and before the problems start arising

02:01:45.048 --> 02:01:52.208
Um And, and I, I want ERCOT to, to provide some technical

02:01:52.220 --> 02:01:57.579
expertise on that. Uh And finally, the, as, as I think

02:01:57.588 --> 02:01:59.609
Commissioner Cobos said the legislature is in town

02:02:00.039 --> 02:02:03.949
Um I mean, you've been uh participating in workshops

02:02:03.958 --> 02:02:06.369
with them from what I understand, which is great. Uh

02:02:06.378 --> 02:02:10.048
But they, they will have an opinion on this. Uh I don't

02:02:10.060 --> 02:02:12.609
know where any of that specific legislation is, but

02:02:13.060 --> 02:02:17.159
uh they, they have incredibly important voice in all

02:02:17.168 --> 02:02:21.458
of this. Uh So again, I'll, I'll, I'm not gonna put

02:02:21.470 --> 02:02:24.180
myself anywhere on the spectrum left, right in the

02:02:24.189 --> 02:02:26.850
middle. I'm just, I'm just gonna put myself in the

02:02:26.859 --> 02:02:31.689
lots of questions category. And so what I would just

02:02:31.699 --> 02:02:34.899
say um is that uh we'll never be able to solve all

02:02:34.909 --> 02:02:36.750
of the questions and answer all the questions before

02:02:36.838 --> 02:02:40.810
These things come and happen. We never, this Commission

02:02:40.819 --> 02:02:43.529
never did it when coal plants came, they never did

02:02:43.539 --> 02:02:45.850
it when natural gas plants were being built in the

02:02:45.859 --> 02:02:49.789
late 90s and the early 2000s, it has to adapt and getting

02:02:49.798 --> 02:02:52.168
these on the system sooner rather than later in my

02:02:52.180 --> 02:02:57.069
opinion is what forces the questions to come up? This

02:02:57.079 --> 02:02:58.970
is what's happening with the pilot program, which is

02:02:58.979 --> 02:03:01.909
why it's successful is that we're not hypothetically

02:03:01.918 --> 02:03:04.689
talking about questions. We are actually seeing the

02:03:04.699 --> 02:03:07.989
questions come up as a result of an operational issue

02:03:08.529 --> 02:03:11.319
and I'd be forcing the question. Yes, I be happy to

02:03:11.418 --> 02:03:13.739
you know, suggest that we have a pilot project for

02:03:13.750 --> 02:03:16.939
5000 Megawatt of nine point nine, Megawatt storage

02:03:17.020 --> 02:03:22.750
at distribution level. Um That may be and I, I'm, I'm

02:03:22.770 --> 02:03:25.569
I fully appreciate the point that that on the ground

02:03:25.579 --> 02:03:27.819
field, you know, ground truth and field learning is

02:03:27.829 --> 02:03:31.229
is beneficial, beneficial. Um But again, I'm gonna

02:03:31.239 --> 02:03:35.369
I'm gonna defer to to and what is the, what level of

02:03:35.378 --> 02:03:39.029
technical risk or will we willing to accept in order

02:03:39.039 --> 02:03:42.770
to, to achieve these learnings? And I think I'm sure

02:03:42.779 --> 02:03:45.350
we can find the right balance. I just want to make

02:03:45.359 --> 02:03:47.329
sure we're not going to figure it out today, but I

02:03:47.338 --> 02:03:50.109
just want to make sure we're being deliberate in our

02:03:50.119 --> 02:03:53.850
process. Agreed. I think the, you know what this is

02:03:53.859 --> 02:03:56.909
leaning towards as it is in many different jurisdictions

02:03:56.918 --> 02:04:00.250
is RUC has very limited jurisdiction, very limited

02:04:00.439 --> 02:04:04.810
sight into the distribution system operations. And

02:04:04.819 --> 02:04:06.949
does that mean there needs to be a distribution system

02:04:06.958 --> 02:04:09.140
operator? I don't know, that's not something I'm prepared

02:04:09.149 --> 02:04:11.708
to say yes to right now because I don't think it's

02:04:11.899 --> 02:04:14.649
there's nothing going on. That's nondiscriminatory

02:04:15.020 --> 02:04:18.810
That's discriminatory. Excuse me. If, if, if interconnecting

02:04:18.819 --> 02:04:22.878
to the, to the distribution system remains in a nondiscriminatory

02:04:22.890 --> 02:04:24.869
basis, then I think that's, that's great. That's what

02:04:24.878 --> 02:04:25.479
we want.

02:04:27.088 --> 02:04:29.509
It goes both ways like it takes longer to connect the

02:04:29.520 --> 02:04:34.390
same physical battery at the transmission level, if

02:04:34.399 --> 02:04:37.418
it's a little bit bigger or if it's the transmission

02:04:37.430 --> 02:04:39.119
level because now you got to go through it, it takes

02:04:39.128 --> 02:04:42.569
longer because it's more expensive. I don't think we

02:04:42.579 --> 02:04:44.810
want to discourage either. I think we want to encourage

02:04:44.819 --> 02:04:48.759
both by making sure that both processes work for the

02:04:49.009 --> 02:04:50.890
for the magnitude of megawatts that they're trying

02:04:50.899 --> 02:04:56.819
to connect. Sure. And, but making them equal is goes

02:04:56.829 --> 02:04:59.520
for the good parts of being equal and the bad parts

02:04:59.529 --> 02:05:02.189
like the studies and the command and control. But that's

02:05:02.199 --> 02:05:06.390
not true because a 500 Megawatt generator is very different

02:05:06.399 --> 02:05:11.750
than a 9.9 Megawatt storage device. The amount of contingencies

02:05:11.759 --> 02:05:15.520
and challenges that could result of could be a result

02:05:15.529 --> 02:05:19.680
of that generator tripping are much greater than a

02:05:19.689 --> 02:05:25.750
battery not discharging. So it looks a lot like 509.9

02:05:25.759 --> 02:05:28.430
S. You're exactly right. And then that would get us

02:05:28.439 --> 02:05:31.750
to the point in my opinion that the bigger the unit

02:05:32.259 --> 02:05:37.250
the more they, they have to back up their generators

02:05:37.259 --> 02:05:41.220
So that would say that Comanche Peak at 1000 Megawatt

02:05:41.229 --> 02:05:44.850
of generator has to make sure they have 1000 Megawatt

02:05:44.859 --> 02:05:47.649
to back up because their contingency is the largest

02:05:47.659 --> 02:05:50.548
on the entire system. Something that's distributed

02:05:50.560 --> 02:05:54.619
has a much smaller impact. Maybe it depends on which

02:05:54.628 --> 02:05:57.180
neighborhood it's in which transmission constraints

02:05:57.189 --> 02:06:01.239
it's behind. Right. Not really. Well, if it's all at

02:06:01.250 --> 02:06:04.390
the end of the line helping those people that don't

02:06:04.399 --> 02:06:06.609
have good access to the transmission system, which

02:06:06.619 --> 02:06:09.958
is presumably one of the benefits, then what happens

02:06:09.970 --> 02:06:13.338
when that contingency on that one line fails? Did you

02:06:13.350 --> 02:06:17.930
lose 5000 megawatts of, of distributed and different

02:06:17.939 --> 02:06:21.509
owners? But they're all in the Greater Nueces County area

02:06:21.520 --> 02:06:24.579
or in the Valley? I don't know the answer, but I'm

02:06:24.588 --> 02:06:27.789
I'm my point is we, we need to ask these questions

02:06:27.798 --> 02:06:31.649
before we plug in 1000 9.9 S, I'd like to take a

02:06:31.659 --> 02:06:37.798
swing at splitting a baby here. Um And that is uh that

02:06:37.810 --> 02:06:40.770
the technical and operational concerns you, you uh

02:06:40.779 --> 02:06:44.520
highlight are well founded. I mean, these are questions

02:06:44.529 --> 02:06:46.149
that every ISO across the country are kind of

02:06:46.159 --> 02:06:49.208
asking about the proliferation of distribution level

02:06:49.220 --> 02:06:52.159
resources. Um because nobody has visibility past the

02:06:52.168 --> 02:06:54.918
volt power system that is a national framework. Um

02:06:56.109 --> 02:06:59.439
But I think one if we're gonna keep the project open

02:06:59.449 --> 02:07:02.199
and this is a question of bandwidth and we could receive

02:07:02.208 --> 02:07:05.520
uh input from Staff either today in terms of what they've

02:07:05.529 --> 02:07:08.399
heard or over the next two weeks before the April 6th

02:07:08.409 --> 02:07:12.390
open meeting. Um I do think the questions around the

02:07:12.399 --> 02:07:14.859
transparency and fairness that does not create any

02:07:14.869 --> 02:07:18.369
type of competitive globalization that is just do you

02:07:18.378 --> 02:07:21.708
get a line item invoice for what you're paying on?

02:07:21.720 --> 02:07:24.668
And should that be in rule and standardized across

02:07:24.859 --> 02:07:29.048
our uh IOU PDSPs? Should that be a reasonable

02:07:29.060 --> 02:07:31.229
expectation? Because we have done that in Oncor, they

02:07:31.239 --> 02:07:34.810
had good ground work in Oncor. Um They had a framework

02:07:34.819 --> 02:07:38.418
in Oncor. And um we could just build upon that in

02:07:38.430 --> 02:07:42.640
terms of a rule to help standardize this or ask the

02:07:42.649 --> 02:07:46.048
question at least ask the question, go ahead and like

02:07:46.329 --> 02:07:50.060
the like keeping the project open is, is productive

02:07:50.069 --> 02:07:52.859
I think. But also part of this is Staff has other stuff

02:07:52.869 --> 02:07:55.149
to do. I don't want to. That's what I'm trying to flush

02:07:55.159 --> 02:07:59.079
out. Tell them a good job. We're gonna go, we're gonna

02:07:59.088 --> 02:08:01.390
go through the reliability standard stuff and then

02:08:01.399 --> 02:08:04.838
dump them with a bunch of other questions and all the

02:08:04.850 --> 02:08:08.298
other TDUs are watching what happens in the Oncor

02:08:08.310 --> 02:08:12.548
case. Right? Nothing prevents them from getting, getting

02:08:12.560 --> 02:08:15.609
ahead of the curve if you will on the transparency

02:08:16.239 --> 02:08:18.939
is that a rule that should be taken up separately from

02:08:18.949 --> 02:08:22.329
this more compre like doing all of this more comprehensively

02:08:22.338 --> 02:08:25.588
when we have more learnings from the pilot, we have

02:08:25.600 --> 02:08:29.168
more, we have the reliability standard and and Mr. Chairman

02:08:29.750 --> 02:08:33.869
would be, we the next phase will certainly be more

02:08:33.878 --> 02:08:37.539
comprehensive. This would be a small step forward

02:08:37.548 --> 02:08:42.020
on this to provide clarity and try to level the playing

02:08:42.029 --> 02:08:45.079
field in terms of resources interconnecting at either

02:08:45.088 --> 02:08:48.729
uh position uh transmission. And you could ask is,

02:08:48.739 --> 02:08:51.829
would this be a big bandwidth pull for resources to

02:08:51.838 --> 02:08:54.458
continue to ask those limited questions? Well, how

02:08:54.470 --> 02:08:57.500
about between next open meeting? We can ask Staff to

02:08:57.640 --> 02:09:03.020
give us the, what is the I if, what are the pros

02:09:03.029 --> 02:09:07.829
and cons of a limited scope consideration for rule

02:09:07.838 --> 02:09:13.439
making while also not cracking the lid on Pandora's

02:09:13.449 --> 02:09:17.250
box and then having every little issue that's really

02:09:17.259 --> 02:09:20.048
not that big of a deal, but we're just gonna, we're

02:09:20.060 --> 02:09:23.409
just gonna do this one more because then we, we end

02:09:23.418 --> 02:09:25.128
up doing everything about piece meal, which is what

02:09:25.140 --> 02:09:27.500
we're very deliberately trying to avoid doing it by

02:09:27.509 --> 02:09:31.539
piece meal. Um So next open meeting could and, and

02:09:31.649 --> 02:09:34.000
as part of briefings for each Commission office could

02:09:34.009 --> 02:09:39.350
staff provide some feedback on pros and cons of doing

02:09:39.359 --> 02:09:43.079
a transparency. We, we absolutely can do that and,

02:09:43.088 --> 02:09:46.729
and we really appreciate this, this robust discussion

02:09:46.739 --> 02:09:49.189
here that'll, that'll help us a lot in preparing and

02:09:49.199 --> 02:09:53.239
scoping um this project going forward and, and just

02:09:53.250 --> 02:09:57.310
to be clear for Staff, all of the questions that and

02:09:57.319 --> 02:10:01.869
stuff we're talking about are not, do not need a response

02:10:01.878 --> 02:10:04.079
from y'all. If anything, the goal of keeping the project

02:10:04.088 --> 02:10:07.279
open is for all of the stakeholders to listen to this

02:10:07.289 --> 02:10:11.479
conversation and provide, provide their feedback over

02:10:11.489 --> 02:10:14.520
the next weeks and months into that project. Y'all

02:10:14.529 --> 02:10:16.579
don't need to worry about that. The only thing Staff

02:10:16.588 --> 02:10:21.489
needs to worry about is uh feedback on rule making

02:10:21.500 --> 02:10:25.909
for the, the very clearly defined scope of potential

02:10:25.918 --> 02:10:29.418
transparency improvements. So David, what do you think

02:10:29.430 --> 02:10:31.918
(item:28:54224, David Smeltzer with Commission Staff, Cost Recovery & Staff Memo) if, if it's helpful or no, I, you know, we do have

02:10:31.930 --> 02:10:34.270
one of the one of the DSR projects or one

02:10:34.279 --> 02:10:36.979
of the DR projects is not posted for this open meeting

02:10:37.069 --> 02:10:39.520
But if I say things are not in the scope of this

02:10:39.529 --> 02:10:42.000
project, you'll know what I mean. Um And so I think

02:10:42.009 --> 02:10:44.489
that like interconnection related questions such as

02:10:44.500 --> 02:10:46.458
transparency or whether or not there could be a true

02:10:46.470 --> 02:10:49.270
up or which neighborhoods it goes to. Those are all

02:10:49.279 --> 02:10:52.239
important inputs to whether or not we think that there

02:10:52.250 --> 02:10:55.109
is a benefit that would justify a different cost allocation

02:10:55.119 --> 02:10:58.668
question. But the rule making project in which we would

02:10:58.680 --> 02:11:01.199
actually take up those questions is not this cost allocation

02:11:01.208 --> 02:11:03.409
project. So I guess the clarification I would want

02:11:03.418 --> 02:11:05.779
is that the Staff's recommendation to close the project

02:11:05.789 --> 02:11:09.739
was on these cost allocation questions and as of now

02:11:09.750 --> 02:11:12.659
uh pending whatever we hear from you today though,

02:11:12.668 --> 02:11:16.970
the other questions uh we were considering keeping

02:11:17.149 --> 02:11:19.659
in this interconnection or technical workshop. So if

02:11:19.668 --> 02:11:23.029
what we need to do next open meeting is bring back

02:11:23.149 --> 02:11:26.890
a global assessment across those two projects. We can

02:11:26.899 --> 02:11:28.930
because it sounds like there's some questions I think

02:11:28.949 --> 02:11:31.930
that would be valuable. I'm looking at I can be moving

02:11:31.939 --> 02:11:35.298
forward with one and not the other needs to sync up

02:11:35.310 --> 02:11:39.009
a global plan for the two and then provide you feedback

02:11:39.369 --> 02:11:40.689
just for the two. Everything.

02:11:44.250 --> 02:11:47.680
Roughly yes, the pilot is not under threat, right?

02:11:47.689 --> 02:11:51.199
I mean, we're not talking about the pilot. I mean,

02:11:51.779 --> 02:11:53.649
but I mean, the point of the pilot is to take the

02:11:53.659 --> 02:11:58.739
learnings at a small scale and then figure out what

02:11:58.750 --> 02:12:02.259
works, what works. But can I make a distinguishing

02:12:02.270 --> 02:12:05.970
point here? The pilot project and distributed storage

02:12:05.979 --> 02:12:10.619
are really two different things. The pilot is in the

02:12:10.628 --> 02:12:11.359
same realm.

02:12:13.489 --> 02:12:16.470
They are both on planet Earth. That's right. But, but

02:12:16.479 --> 02:12:20.100
they are not. Um there are two different sets of issues

02:12:20.109 --> 02:12:23.329
One of them is how in the ERCOT wholesale market, you

02:12:23.338 --> 02:12:27.079
can get distributed resources that are not in the same

02:12:27.088 --> 02:12:30.810
location and, and virtually tie them together to get

02:12:30.819 --> 02:12:33.119
a price and sell to the wholesale market. What we're

02:12:33.128 --> 02:12:38.609
talking about under this issue is 9.9 Megawatt generators

02:12:38.619 --> 02:12:42.838
In the VPP. We're talking about sub one Megawatt

02:12:43.208 --> 02:12:47.079
entities that and we're talking about 9.9 Megawatt

02:12:47.088 --> 02:12:50.699
units that would be on the distribution system as a

02:12:50.708 --> 02:12:53.279
single unit, not tied together. Maybe that's something

02:12:53.289 --> 02:12:55.378
in the future, but it is not now, they're all acting

02:12:55.390 --> 02:12:59.850
as single units. So what we get from the pilot project

02:12:59.918 --> 02:13:04.708
may or may not inform what we need to do here, but

02:13:04.720 --> 02:13:08.319
it will give us obviously evidence on things that are

02:13:08.329 --> 02:13:10.699
more distributed and how they interact on the system

02:13:10.708 --> 02:13:13.970
and what ERCOT needs to have visibility into them.

02:13:14.000 --> 02:13:18.338
But I'm not expecting that phase two of a virtual power

02:13:18.350 --> 02:13:21.979
plant pilot project is going to tell us how many megawatts

02:13:21.989 --> 02:13:27.509
we can use of 9.9 Megawatt storage at the distribution

02:13:27.520 --> 02:13:30.279
level. I think that's the market that determines that

02:13:30.509 --> 02:13:33.239
and that our rules need to facilitate that with the

02:13:33.250 --> 02:13:37.819
only limit being. If we get a reliability problem,

02:13:37.829 --> 02:13:39.819
we ought to be able to know it and see it and

02:13:39.829 --> 02:13:43.298
take action on it. Well, I mean, you said it you said

02:13:43.310 --> 02:13:46.649
at the beginning, all of these, the ADERs pilot projects

02:13:46.659 --> 02:13:51.208
are sub one Megawatt aggregated and 9.9 doesn't matter

02:13:51.220 --> 02:13:53.548
until you aggregate it until it starts looking like

02:13:53.560 --> 02:13:56.390
a bigger unit. And sub one Megawatt doesn't really

02:13:56.399 --> 02:13:58.939
matter, but the whole point is aggregating them and

02:13:58.949 --> 02:14:01.128
we don't know what those look like yet. That's the

02:14:01.140 --> 02:14:03.720
point of the pilot project. And so you get a lot of

02:14:03.729 --> 02:14:05.329
those together, the whole point is aggregated. I'm

02:14:05.338 --> 02:14:07.000
like, OK, how does that work? How does that work in

02:14:07.009 --> 02:14:08.850
settlements? How does that work in visibility? I'm

02:14:08.859 --> 02:14:10.909
not saying one has to be conditional on the other,

02:14:11.439 --> 02:14:13.659
but, but I'm saying, I don't think they are, but I

02:14:13.668 --> 02:14:16.449
appreciate that recognition. But I mean, I think it'd

02:14:16.458 --> 02:14:19.708
be foolish and irresponsible of us to ignore the learnings

02:14:19.720 --> 02:14:26.369
from ADERs and just open the floodgates on another distribution

02:14:26.378 --> 02:14:29.918
level type of resource with pretending like this pilot

02:14:29.930 --> 02:14:33.069
project is not going on. I think we need to, I mean

02:14:33.199 --> 02:14:36.529
it's the only responsible thing is to, to maximize

02:14:36.539 --> 02:14:43.208
the learnings from the ADERs uh and try to apply those

02:14:43.220 --> 02:14:47.439
lessons uh sooner rather than later to the extent there

02:14:47.449 --> 02:14:50.229
are. And there, there, we may get the results of the

02:14:50.239 --> 02:14:54.890
pilot project and say hot damn that none of this applies

02:14:54.899 --> 02:15:00.770
to uh to, to DSR or DRS. Uh We

02:15:00.779 --> 02:15:02.520
may get the results from the pilot project and say

02:15:02.970 --> 02:15:05.039
none of this works. Anyway, I don't know that's the

02:15:05.048 --> 02:15:07.708
point of the pilot project, but, but I'm not ready

02:15:07.720 --> 02:15:12.289
I'm not comfortable hamstringing the, the distributed

02:15:12.298 --> 02:15:15.759
storage devices based upon an outcome of something

02:15:15.770 --> 02:15:18.829
that's tying a bunch of power walls together, they

02:15:18.838 --> 02:15:22.289
are fundamentally two different types of units. And

02:15:22.298 --> 02:15:25.500
I think that if, if, if we just, if we say that

02:15:25.509 --> 02:15:29.458
these distributed storage devices of 9.9 megawatts

02:15:29.798 --> 02:15:33.579
um have no certainty until we hear how these power

02:15:33.588 --> 02:15:36.739
walls connect together. I think we're mixing apples

02:15:36.750 --> 02:15:40.439
and oranges and we, and we're foregoing the certainty

02:15:40.449 --> 02:15:45.079
that can be created by having distributed interconnected

02:15:45.088 --> 02:15:47.909
storage devices. I mean, I know you're happy unleashing

02:15:47.918 --> 02:15:51.640
all of this and unleashing transmission to every corner

02:15:51.649 --> 02:15:55.659
of the globe. But you know, we tried that with renewables

02:15:55.668 --> 02:15:58.189
and it didn't work so well. And a lot of people who

02:15:58.199 --> 02:16:00.359
started that the federal government are now asking

02:16:00.369 --> 02:16:03.588
why they did that to begin with. So there is some benefit

02:16:03.600 --> 02:16:06.020
in thinking through things through benefits of pilots

02:16:06.029 --> 02:16:09.350
And like you said, a pilot project on the D er S

02:16:09.359 --> 02:16:14.189
is could be beneficial. But that's and our job is to

02:16:14.199 --> 02:16:17.628
strike the right balance between being responsible

02:16:17.640 --> 02:16:20.569
diligent and thorough, especially when it comes to

02:16:20.579 --> 02:16:25.878
command and control that ensures reliability with balancing

02:16:25.890 --> 02:16:29.699
that responsibility to our consumers and our grid reliability

02:16:30.000 --> 02:16:34.690
with allowing enough free rein to the marketplace and

02:16:34.700 --> 02:16:38.837
to investors to go uh identify the best solutions and

02:16:38.847 --> 02:16:43.007
and and get the, get the, get the appropriate resources

02:16:43.018 --> 02:16:45.888
Not because we think they're cool, not because they're

02:16:45.899 --> 02:16:49.049
nifty or a study said they're cool because California

02:16:49.058 --> 02:16:51.918
tried that 10 years ago and they're eating that we're

02:16:51.929 --> 02:16:55.489
not California. We, we, we, you know, I, I, I don't

02:16:55.500 --> 02:17:00.620
like the, well, you know, the, the parallels are, um

02:17:01.019 --> 02:17:02.838
you know, we're different. We're sitting here trying

02:17:02.849 --> 02:17:05.679
to solve these issues, um, and they're being brought

02:17:05.690 --> 02:17:10.190
up ahead of time. Um Not in the rearview mirror. And

02:17:10.200 --> 02:17:14.040
um I think that, um you know what the Legislature is

02:17:14.049 --> 02:17:17.218
gonna do. Your PCM are all issues on the table that

02:17:17.229 --> 02:17:21.229
help solve that at a, at a much higher uh you know

02:17:21.239 --> 02:17:25.338
level within the system. Um These smaller things are

02:17:25.349 --> 02:17:29.769
are small but add value as well. And um, you know what

02:17:29.780 --> 02:17:33.088
I don't want is, well, I, I, I've said my piece, the

02:17:33.099 --> 02:17:36.000
goal is to make them big so they have more. No, it's

02:17:36.009 --> 02:17:39.110
not that that's where you're, you're, I I it's, it's

02:17:39.120 --> 02:17:43.500
to allow everyone to operate independently. A 9.9 Megawatt

02:17:43.638 --> 02:17:48.069
battery doesn't have to connect with another 9.9 Megawatt

02:17:48.079 --> 02:17:51.899
battery under this process, that's only the power walls

02:17:51.909 --> 02:17:55.269
the sub one Megawatt power walls under the VPP. We

02:17:55.280 --> 02:17:58.829
have a limit on 80 megawatts across ERCOT on the 

02:17:58.838 --> 02:18:03.530
VPP. So, so we're not tying these together. We're trying

02:18:03.540 --> 02:18:07.628
to give them the opportunity to interconnect and be

02:18:07.638 --> 02:18:10.667
a part of our system. And and that's the part of the

02:18:10.677 --> 02:18:13.718
point of this process is to make sure that we are providing

02:18:13.727 --> 02:18:16.548
an opportunity opportunity for them to add benefit

02:18:16.558 --> 02:18:21.859
to the system, not just sh short circuit existing processes

02:18:22.029 --> 02:18:24.539
to the benefit of their, their investors. This is my

02:18:24.548 --> 02:18:30.238
fault. And so this is all my fault. We're trying to

02:18:30.248 --> 02:18:34.319
keep pinned. We're trying to identify a and, and frame

02:18:34.329 --> 02:18:38.370
this, this resource and give us certainty that it is

02:18:38.379 --> 02:18:41.540
not a Pandora's box that could have unintended consequences

02:18:41.549 --> 02:18:43.690
That's what the entire discussion has been about at

02:18:43.700 --> 02:18:48.088
this point. That's why uh I think a path forward recommendation

02:18:48.099 --> 02:18:51.200
is over the next two weeks, staff gets together on

02:18:51.209 --> 02:18:54.679
the two projects um to harmonize what you've heard

02:18:54.690 --> 02:18:57.229
today, you've clearly heard a kind of question of scope

02:18:57.239 --> 02:19:00.279
or at least a consensus grouping of opinions around

02:19:00.289 --> 02:19:03.417
scope that could be discussed. And I think you're,

02:19:03.427 --> 02:19:05.529
you're absolutely right, Connie nailed it and I wouldn't

02:19:05.539 --> 02:19:07.927
limit it to it. Just these two projects, everything

02:19:07.939 --> 02:19:13.029
under the distribution sun. Um No, no new projects

02:19:13.039 --> 02:19:15.818
no merging of project, nothing. Just a road map, a

02:19:15.828 --> 02:19:19.958
landscape of uh and I know it smelt. You've already

02:19:19.968 --> 02:19:24.488
got a sort of sense of this um a, a global landscape

02:19:24.498 --> 02:19:27.689
of all the things uh under the sun and distribution

02:19:28.308 --> 02:19:32.709
Um Key, let's just start there and then we can work

02:19:32.718 --> 02:19:35.709
through decision points. What are, what are things

02:19:35.718 --> 02:19:39.558
So if they could file something and then uh the next

02:19:39.569 --> 02:19:42.899
week. So that then I could put a memo together to help

02:19:42.909 --> 02:19:45.418
frame that down in terms of what I believe the path

02:19:45.429 --> 02:19:47.319
forward would be. And then you could look at that.

02:19:47.759 --> 02:19:49.950
Well, hold on, hold on, let me, let's, let's give them

02:19:49.959 --> 02:19:54.058
some time to work um and to breathe. Um And let's,

02:19:54.069 --> 02:19:56.808
let's get the landscape, let's let's let them file

02:19:56.819 --> 02:20:00.019
a memo ahead of the next meeting with the landscape

02:20:00.790 --> 02:20:06.370
And then we can, we can all discuss the, what, what

02:20:06.379 --> 02:20:09.530
limited scope on transparency if we want to come up

02:20:09.540 --> 02:20:13.579
with that or if we want to tackle that now and, and

02:20:13.588 --> 02:20:15.838
and if they could do that in a way that I would

02:20:15.849 --> 02:20:19.759
have time more than 24 hours to write a memo in, in

02:20:20.138 --> 02:20:23.799
in relation to that. So we can articulate some of this

02:20:23.808 --> 02:20:27.058
on paper to help sort it out and provide clarity, you

02:20:27.069 --> 02:20:30.860
know, you'll have something to look at because I think

02:20:30.879 --> 02:20:36.899
ok, so I, I think we, we can absolutely do that. We

02:20:36.909 --> 02:20:42.729
we will endeavor to get our memo filed in accordance

02:20:42.739 --> 02:20:45.110
with the spirit of the seven day rule in advance of

02:20:45.120 --> 02:20:48.679
the open meeting so that, that each of the Commissioners

02:20:48.690 --> 02:20:53.549
can review it and um, and, and prepare any memos that

02:20:53.558 --> 02:20:56.120
they wish to file, um, for discussion, that way it

02:20:56.129 --> 02:20:57.338
will be more organized for you

02:21:00.338 --> 02:21:02.290
want to make sure everybody has a chance to,

02:21:04.450 --> 02:21:07.790
oh, they're eager to jump in, I can tell at a good

02:21:07.799 --> 02:21:13.370
time. Ok. Uh Any other? Ok. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I

02:21:13.610 --> 02:21:16.829
OK, so I just wanna make sure I understand. Staff files a memo

02:21:16.838 --> 02:21:22.599
lists a bunch of, um, DESR issues that need

02:21:22.610 --> 02:21:25.479
to be addressed or, or we could look at or, or lingering

02:21:25.489 --> 02:21:27.638
out there based on stakeholder feedback, our discussion

02:21:27.649 --> 02:21:32.329
today. And then we decide whether we, we want to which

02:21:32.338 --> 02:21:34.769
ones we want to take up. And, and what project,

02:21:36.750 --> 02:21:37.399
I mean,

02:21:38.968 --> 02:21:41.950
let's just start with the global landscape and we'll

02:21:41.959 --> 02:21:46.750
keep the project open. So the new old studies and all

02:21:46.759 --> 02:21:49.918
of our stakeholders can contribute, what I'm sure will

02:21:49.929 --> 02:21:54.009
be robust over the next weeks and months. Uh thoughts

02:21:54.019 --> 02:21:57.929
analysis, et cetera, uh hopefully answering or at least

02:21:57.940 --> 02:22:02.000
providing some, some context for all the important

02:22:02.009 --> 02:22:05.838
questions that need to be answered. Um And that should

02:22:05.849 --> 02:22:09.079
put us in a good spot for the next open meeting to

02:22:09.088 --> 02:22:11.388
continue the discussion, the discussion

02:22:13.209 --> 02:22:16.129
work. Do you need anything else from us? No. So that

02:22:16.138 --> 02:22:18.849
works. And I think that uh this was, doesn't always

02:22:18.860 --> 02:22:20.950
feel like it, but I think this was time well spent

02:22:20.959 --> 02:22:23.450
and will enable us to move swiftly after the next open

02:22:23.459 --> 02:22:26.540
meeting. Um So I think we can feel good about it. Thank

02:22:26.649 --> 02:22:27.588
you. Thank you.

02:22:29.940 --> 02:22:33.659
All right. I think that concludes all of the business

02:22:33.668 --> 02:22:39.479
for our open meeting. We will be convening in closed

02:22:39.489 --> 02:22:45.968
session uh at 11:56 AM on March 23, 2023. Having

02:22:46.489 --> 02:22:49.440
duly convened a duly noticed open meeting, we will

02:22:49.450 --> 02:22:51.968
hold a closed session for Chapter 501 of the

02:22:51.979 --> 02:22:56.319
Texas Government Code Section 551.071, 551.074,

02:22:56.329 --> 02:23:00.709
and 551.076. We'll be back in a bit, please

02:23:02.259 --> 02:23:07.308
at 12:09pm on March 23, 2023. And the Commission

02:23:07.319 --> 02:23:09.138
will resume its public meeting after deliberations

02:23:09.149 --> 02:23:11.829
in closed session. (item:35:Motion approved for attorneys to appeal) I'll entertain a motion to direct

02:23:11.838 --> 02:23:14.690
our attorneys to appeal the third court of appeals

02:23:14.700 --> 02:23:20.709
ruling in Luna, VPUC, Case number 03-21-00098. Is

02:23:20.718 --> 02:23:21.370
there a motion?

02:23:24.229 --> 02:23:26.849
So moved. Second. Got a motion and second. All in favor, say aye. 

02:23:27.149 --> 02:23:31.799
Aye. Non opposed, motion passes. Uh, the second matter

02:23:31.808 --> 02:23:36.530
to consider, uh, would ask for a (item:35:Motion approved to file brief to AG) motion to direct,

02:23:36.540 --> 02:23:39.149
uh OPDM to file a brief

02:23:39.159 --> 02:23:41.659
with the office of Attorney General regarding Franklin

02:23:41.668 --> 02:23:49.409
County. Uh AG opinion. I want to request RQ-0500 K

02:23:49.418 --> 02:23:49.888
T.

02:23:51.668 --> 02:23:55.040
So moved. Second. I got a motion and a second. All in favor, say

02:23:55.049 --> 02:24:00.190
aye. Aye. Non opposed, motion passes. (item:36:Chairman Lake adjourns meeting) Having no further business

02:24:00.200 --> 02:24:02.159
before the Commission. This meeting of the Public Utility

02:24:02.168 --> 02:24:04.509
Commission of Texas is hereby adjourned.