WEBVTT

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All right. So for those of us who maybe joined a little

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bit late. Um we kind of switched things up. We were

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doing non-ERCOT in the first batch and then ERCOT. But

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El Paso Electric had some travel woes. So CenterPoint

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already has gone in uh to present a great research

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study. Now, we're excited to see El Paso and then we'll

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come back to the ERCOT. All right, great. Uh (item:3.1:38578, Crystal with El Paso Electric discusses their programs) Good morning

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everybody. You guys aren't missing much, okay. Um I'm Crystal,

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I'm with El Paso Electric. I've been in the department

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now for over 8 years. Uh with me, I have my supervisor

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(inaudible) over there and then my colleague, Don Johnson right

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there on the front row, on the end there. Um so if

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you wanna go ahead and get started. So as I mentioned

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we aren't missing a whole lot. There are not a lot of

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changes to our 2023 projections. The one change that

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I want to highlight for both our budget and our energy

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and kWh savings. Is we did reduce our projected energy

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and demand savings for our residential Load Management

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program. One of the key reasons that we went ahead

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and did this is when we originally did those projections.

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We were offering the demand response pre-enrollment

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through our marketplace 365 days a year. However, in

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order to maintain, to contain our budget within that

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program. We have to limit that feature to our customers.

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As a result, we saw a decrease in savings and we project

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to continue to see that decrease in energy savings

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and not so much demand savings. It will start

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to grow and stuff. But after that first year, we saw

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a little bit of a dip. Um and that was a result

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of the uh thermostats that first year. When we first

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elected to go ahead. So in 2022 we decided to reduce

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the, the DRPE number of days. The OEMs would

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not offer the same promotions to the customers. If they

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didn't have the DRPE option available to them. Um

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that was something that took place in the first year

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in 2021 and then it got corrected as we moved through

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2022. So we did see a drop off in the savings. Um

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but we wanted to chew them up and you'll see that in

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our filing this year.

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Some of the things that are coming in 2024 and 2025.

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Is for the most part, everything is going to stay the

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same. We are in the process of launching our AMS.

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So we want to stable, stable as we prepare for 2025

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to come around. So one of the things that we are looking

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at to do. Is to start to consolidate some of our programs

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and we're going to do that in 2024 in our commercial

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programs. We're going to be consolidating our large

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commercial solutions program and our score program.

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Our score program is geared towards the schools, government

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sector, public sector. And then the large commercial

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is everything that has an average demand greater than

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100 KW. So we're primarily serving the same sector

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there. So we're going to just go ahead and combine

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that into one program. We will still keep our small

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commercial solutions program. Which is all commercial

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customers with an average demand less than 100 KW.

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On the residential sector again, no major changes there.

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Um the biggest change is going to be our educational

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programs right now. We have the Futurewise Educational

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program which is new. It is geared towards the high

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school students. And then we have the Livingwise program

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which is geared towards fifth grade students. Um those

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are two different kits. They offer different measures

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that go to the schools and then to the homes. And energy

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efficiency measures get installed by the students and

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they uh return surveys and stuff back to us. We're

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gonna go ahead and combine that into just one program.

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With just two different kit offerings um, all in the

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up to minimize admin costs. Um and then one of the things

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I'm really excited about in our area is to start a

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midstream distributor program, that's going to take

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place in 2025. And we want to have that available for

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all commercial classes or not commercial, for all classes.

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Um, primarily the equipment that we're looking to target

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is going to be your commercial grade kitchen equipment.

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Any like home appliances, um HVAC units, those hard

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equipment um that it might be easier at a point of

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sale discount. As opposed to utilizing an energy uh

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service provider. I'll talk about that a little bit

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more. So we're excited about that in 2025.

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All right, 2022 successes that we wanted to talk about.

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Um as I mentioned, our residential Load Management

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Program. When we relaunched it in 2020, it was like

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a runaway train. Um it moved through its budget the

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first year and it exceeded it 2nd year. We adjusted

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the budget and it continues to exceed the budget. So

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as I mentioned, we went ahead and put some restrictions

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in that program to slow it down. So one of the things

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that we saw, even with those restrictions. We still

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saw over 8 megs of demand savings, which is still

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20% over what we originally projected. Our energy savings

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was significantly lower at 492,000 kWh, with that

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restriction in place. Um we only allow the DRPE for

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114 days last year. Um so that's where we saw

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that drop off from the prior year where we had 2.6

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million in energy savings from the solid smart thermostats.

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Um so for just for 2023 for information sake, um we

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actually have the DRPE open. And that'll stay open

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from January 1st through the end of July. And then

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we'll shut it down again. As a result of that, we had

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projected a budget of $453,000 in 2022. As I said, we

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exceeded it. We were at $538,000 and that was with the

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restrictions that were in place in 2022. But as we

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anticipated, we were going to see those savings shift

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on over into our residential marketplace. So that was

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a big win for us. Because we did gain a lot of

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energy savings there. As you can see from 2021, we

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went from $2.2 million to almost $3.2 million. That was

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all primarily driven by the shift in the thermostats

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going over to the marketplace and those cost shifting

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over to that program. But one of the other things that

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we also saw, we saw an increase in demand in the marketplace.

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And that right there was driven by the energy star

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purifiers. That was a new product added to our marketplace

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last year. It is one of our most popular measures um

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on the marketplace aside from lighting. So for the

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marketplace itself, all sales pretty much stayed flat.

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And so our increase came from the new product of the

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energy star purifiers and the shipped in thermostats

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from the Load Management into the marketplace. Um so

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we were well below our budget there. But when you combine

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the two budgets together, we were at 95% of the total

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of those two programs.

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What does DRPE stand for? Demand Response Pre-enrollment.

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Yeah. So when they're in the marketplace and they're

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looking at purchasing a new thermostat. They have may

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have entered the marketplace either through our Energy

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Wise, which is the residential Load Management, uh

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web page itself. And there's an option there where

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they can select that I have my own device. So they

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go BYOD option or I need a device. And

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then they, that will direct them back to the marketplace.

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Where they can select the thermostat, and then it'll

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give them their $50 rebate for the purchase of the

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smart thermostat. And then they can elect at that point

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in time to automatically enroll that thermostat into

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the Energywise program and they get an additional

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$25. So, is that kind of what you meant by, you said

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that pushed him over, rolled him over something into

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the. Yes. The thermostat sales are they still in the

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program or you're shifting them out of the program?

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So yeah. What, what we still will happen to see that what

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we see happen is so we're not allowing them. So if

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they're now in the marketplace and they're purchasing

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a smart thermostat. They may be doing that with the

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intent to enroll on our thermostat. Right. But they can't

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do it automatically anymore through the marketplace

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because we turn off that feature. So they still purchase

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their thermostat. So now they're getting the rebate

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for the marketplace, and then we'll see a separate transaction

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later through the Energywise program. Where they go

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the BYOD route and now we're only paying them

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a $25 incentive. So, um we eliminated the $50 expenditure

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from the Load Management Program. And we made it unfortunately

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a little bit more difficult for the customers, but

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they want to participate they go the extra steps.

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So you're not hiding it from them. You're just taking

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away the $50 benefit? It's still available, they just have to

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make an extra step to enroll. It's just moving the

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expenditure to another program. Oh, okay. All right,

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thanks.

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And just for 2023, I didn't put on the slide. But we

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do have a new product coming out as well. That's going

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to be the TSRVs are going to be

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added to the marketplace. That's going to be available

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for our customers that do have electric heating, electric

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water heating. It's not a large population within our

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service territory. However, it is something we want

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to make available to the customers. So that will be

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new in the 2023 marketplace, that's fixing to launch.

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(inaudible)

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(inaudible). Yes.

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Thank you Pete for asking, because I wanted to know too.

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So, so yeah. It's a device that helps to conserve water

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and while the water is heating up, um it kind of slows

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the water flow to dribble. Um so that you're not just

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you know, wasting cold water and stuff, so it heats

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up and then you can do it manually. I believe there's

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some automatic ones as well. So once it's a set point

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it will go ahead and release.

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All right, some of the opportunities that we saw this

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year. I, I can't sit and cheer real happy with our

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programs this year. We did finally start to see the

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impacts of the pandemic and inflation and everything

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start to hit our programs this year in El Paso. Um

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one of the ones that we saw, was in our commercial Load

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Management program. And that was quite shocking actually

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that's been a very stable program. It's been fully

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subscribed for many years. Um we were in dire need

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of that program here in early June, uh this past Summer.

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Um but due to um inflation, there are some inflationary

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issues and the supply chain issues. That actually caused

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one, one of our participants, one of the larger ones their

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generator failed. They were not able to get the parts

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in, in time for the season. And as of today, they still

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do not have their parts in. So they were not able to

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participate in the program. And then we also had a

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manufacturer who threw out COVID with the supply chain

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issues. Was expressing his concern about, you know,

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not being able to fully operate and stuff and not knowing

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if he could hit his demand and stuff. He finally uh

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their operations were finally relocated over the border

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to Mexico to save cost. Um so we've lost two participants

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there and we're kind of still on the edge of the 3rd one.

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So we saw a significant decrease as you can see here. Our

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demand was down 7.6 megs um or we achieved 7.6 mags

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down from the 12.3 in 2021. And that was for the most

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part, a pretty stable number that we were seeing above

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10 megs in that program. Now, we are looking to recruit

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new uh participants in the commercial Load Management

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program. Um so that when we have those long stressful

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days, um we have that Load that we can depend on. Our

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educational programs as well. The Livingwise programs

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specifically, we did not launch our Futurewise program

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um due to some delays last Fall, like we had anticipated.

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However, we saw teacher attrition in our educational

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program. We had approximately 50% less teachers um

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participate in the program this past year, as compared

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to prior years. Um and that was due to a large retirement

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teachers not returning to the workforce. So we're in

00:12:50.119 --> 00:12:52.190
the process of teacher recruitment, at this point in

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time. I am reaching out to the school um reeducating

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and trying to build that trusted relationship that

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we had with the outgoing teachers and stuff to rebuild

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that program. Um so we saw about a 50% decrease in

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savings in that program as well. One of the cool things

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that we're excited about in the educational programs

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that's going to be new in 2023. Is the behavioral savings

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that we're looking forward to cleaning for the temperature

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setback. So part of the programs, both the high school

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and elementary school programs. The students are taught

00:13:24.375 --> 00:13:26.995
about looking out their water heaters, seeing where

00:13:27.004 --> 00:13:28.975
the temperature is set at, you know. The opportunity

00:13:28.985 --> 00:13:31.955
to save energy there and then also on the thermostats

00:13:31.966 --> 00:13:35.460
themselves. So they can adjust the thermostat and both

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water heater and HVAC side of it. To save energy and

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stuff and that comes back through surveys and stuff.

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So those are the savings that we're looking forward

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to claiming is the behavioral aspect of it. In that

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program which we haven't done historically. And then

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also coming some new opportunities in both our commercial

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and residential programs. Is we have an energy efficiency

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hotline. I'm sure most of you guys may have this as

00:14:00.509 --> 00:14:03.969
well. Um we receive a lot of calls from our customer

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base. It may be a small business commercial entity

00:14:07.178 --> 00:14:10.038
or it may be a residential home owner. Where they've

00:14:10.048 --> 00:14:13.590
been advised by their energy efficiency service provider

00:14:13.599 --> 00:14:17.619
who is enrolled in our program. Um to reach out to us

00:14:17.629 --> 00:14:21.379
for energy efficiency rebates after it's been installed.

00:14:21.389 --> 00:14:24.590
Okay. So we've had a lot of missed opportunities, some

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upset customers not being able to receive incentives

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and rebates. Um so we have got or just incentives just

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in general. So we're gonna go ahead and start to expand

00:14:33.830 --> 00:14:37.168
the rebate offering to our customers. To provide them

00:14:37.178 --> 00:14:40.099
you know, the benefit because they are making this

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making a decision to go with high-efficient equipment.

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Under the expectation that they're going to get an

00:14:45.678 --> 00:14:48.869
incentive from El Paso Electric, but they're not receiving

00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:50.779
it because the process isn't changed. So we're going

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to go ahead and change that some in our area.

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Any questions?

00:14:58.349 --> 00:15:03.580
So did anybody talk about the fact that you had less

00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:06.889
commercial Load management? You could have replaced

00:15:06.899 --> 00:15:09.899
them with all those enthusiastic residential that you're

00:15:09.908 --> 00:15:13.070
making it hard on. Am I the only one that sees the

00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:19.269
irony there? Uh we are still replacing them, but we

00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.979
have to keep in mind that we do have our cost cap.

00:15:21.989 --> 00:15:25.940
So we are above the cost cap and both the residential

00:15:25.950 --> 00:15:29.349
side of it and on the commercial side as well. So we

00:15:29.359 --> 00:15:32.548
are trying to maintain that. And so we have to be able

00:15:32.558 --> 00:15:35.519
to monitor our budgets and kind of control that at

00:15:35.538 --> 00:15:38.519
this point. Because this is the sort of thing that we're

00:15:38.529 --> 00:15:42.080
talking about, I think is it. That the cost cap does apply

00:15:42.090 --> 00:15:46.918
to each of those categories independently. Yes. So you can't

00:15:46.928 --> 00:15:50.158
add it all together and make up for commercial and

00:15:50.168 --> 00:15:55.259
the residential side? No. Okay. So that's, that's interesting.

00:15:55.269 --> 00:15:59.928
Thank you. Um, one other point. Um, just so that El Paso

00:15:59.940 --> 00:16:02.479
doesn't feel they've been on the hot seat for that.

00:16:02.489 --> 00:16:05.080
It's my understanding at CenterPoint or correct me

00:16:05.090 --> 00:16:09.019
if I have this wrong. You all also have had to, you

00:16:09.029 --> 00:16:12.830
have more demand than you can meet for your residential

00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.279
program. So they also have had to not grow it as exponentially

00:16:17.288 --> 00:16:22.009
as you could. So it, it's throughout the territory.

00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:26.119
So El Paso just uh really had to take some steps this

00:16:26.129 --> 00:16:26.969
particular time.

00:16:32.090 --> 00:16:34.070
All right, we got nothing else. Thank you guys. Thank

00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:34.340
you, Crystal.

00:16:39.908 --> 00:16:40.090
(clapping)

00:16:44.029 --> 00:16:48.129
I think it's Oncor, right? I think so. Yes, Oncor.

00:16:52.798 --> 00:16:53.168
Gary, Dean.

00:16:55.729 --> 00:16:55.960
(silence)

00:16:59.009 --> 00:17:03.399
(item:6:38578, Jean Perez with Oncor to discuss their energy efficiency portfolio) Good morning, everyone. My name is Jean Perez,

00:17:03.408 --> 00:17:06.608
and I'm here on behalf of Oncor Electric Delivery. To talk

00:17:06.618 --> 00:17:09.189
about our energy efficiency portfolio. In the room

00:17:09.199 --> 00:17:11.608
with me is Gary Jones, our Director as well as Paul

00:17:11.618 --> 00:17:14.338
Jack, our Operations Manager. I specifically called

00:17:14.348 --> 00:17:16.709
out their names. Such as if there are any questions

00:17:16.719 --> 00:17:17.930
I can't answer. They will be (inaudible).

00:17:20.348 --> 00:17:27.098
Next slide please. For 2023, um we are expecting $52.21

00:17:27.108 --> 00:17:30.750
million in uh budget. That includes incentives, admin

00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:33.890
costs, R&D as well as EM&V. Um this

00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:39.150
will is forecasted to generate 215.95 megawatts as

00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:44.608
well as 294,270 Megawatt hours. Um I don't have, we

00:17:44.618 --> 00:17:49.009
have the results of our program year 2022, not including

00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:51.900
the EM&V and that is due to be filed this

00:17:51.910 --> 00:17:59.229
Friday, March 31st. Next slide, please. So for 2023 and 2024

00:17:59.239 --> 00:18:03.250
specifically for 2023, we are offering 19 programs.

00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:06.250
These programs include standard offer as well as market

00:18:06.259 --> 00:18:10.049
transformation programs. New in 2023, we are offering

00:18:10.059 --> 00:18:14.199
the low-income A/C tune-up or specifically the cool saver dedicated

00:18:14.209 --> 00:18:18.000
to the low-income population. As well as the smart thermostat

00:18:18.009 --> 00:18:21.449
program specifically for the multi-family sector. Um

00:18:21.459 --> 00:18:24.939
we are within the (inaudible). We are chunking it into

00:18:24.949 --> 00:18:28.598
three sectors specifically driven by great codes as

00:18:28.608 --> 00:18:32.229
well as which market it caters to. The benefit of that

00:18:32.239 --> 00:18:34.890
is we are able to dedicate a specific budget to each

00:18:34.900 --> 00:18:38.489
sector. So on the (inaudible) you'll see it as a smart thermostat

00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:42.108
multi-family offering, smart thermostat low-income multi-family,

00:18:42.118 --> 00:18:46.279
as well as a smart thermostat (inaudible) Program. Uh

00:18:46.289 --> 00:18:49.539
in 2024, we have a different program expansions but

00:18:49.549 --> 00:18:53.410
specific to 2023. The low income A/C tune-up, as well as

00:18:53.420 --> 00:18:56.269
the smart thermostat program is (inaudible) portfolio.

00:18:57.828 --> 00:18:58.848
Next slide please.

00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.088
Energy efficiency is constantly changing every year,

00:19:04.098 --> 00:19:06.699
I think everyone in this room is familiar to it. Utilities

00:19:06.709 --> 00:19:09.269
are familiar with it are implement their stakeholders.

00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:12.578
It's really driven by customer behavior the way we

00:19:12.588 --> 00:19:15.299
approach our business and even the amount of savings

00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:17.890
that we generate from lighting. What's new this year

00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:21.314
in 2023, where a majority of the utilities have really

00:19:21.324 --> 00:19:25.364
shifted their focus is the ISA 2007 baseline lighting

00:19:25.375 --> 00:19:29.324
standards. As of March 1st, we can now only claim it

00:19:29.334 --> 00:19:32.584
at the tier two baseline level, which essentially means

00:19:32.594 --> 00:19:35.005
that majority of the savings that we used to see from

00:19:35.015 --> 00:19:38.193
the retail products program for lighting is now at

00:19:38.203 --> 00:19:43.269
a 30%. Um at least I think on a smattering of skews,

00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.000
you'll see it differently. One, you'll see a 30%

00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:49.630
realization the other. You'll see a 70% overall within

00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.989
that specific space. You do see a hit on 30 per uh

00:19:53.118 --> 00:19:56.809
you will only see a 30% realization rate for your lighting

00:19:56.818 --> 00:19:59.848
savings Which means that starting in 2024, for our

00:19:59.858 --> 00:20:02.299
retail products program. We are no longer offering

00:20:02.309 --> 00:20:06.068
lighting, we are still offering it this year. Um as

00:20:06.078 --> 00:20:09.086
we continue to scale down the lighting measure specific

00:20:09.095 --> 00:20:12.144
to our residential retail products program. Of course

00:20:12.155 --> 00:20:14.625
the other change that has also affected utilities and

00:20:14.634 --> 00:20:17.546
the way we do business is the shift from (inaudible)

00:20:17.556 --> 00:20:21.595
(inaudible) through HVAC. Um essentially what that means

00:20:21.605 --> 00:20:25.675
is increasing baseline. But what is not apparent within

00:20:25.685 --> 00:20:28.005
program processes as well as the way you talk to our

00:20:28.015 --> 00:20:31.566
customers is how you're able to compare both. Because

00:20:31.576 --> 00:20:34.026
you use your (inaudible) replacement, which has a different

00:20:34.036 --> 00:20:36.682
baseline. And of course, you're now installing it with

00:20:36.692 --> 00:20:41.082
the (inaudible) equipment. Um which also has uh a different

00:20:41.092 --> 00:20:44.582
baseline as well. Now state our state evaluator, Frontier

00:20:44.921 --> 00:20:48.661
we have several stakeholders that has helped us identify

00:20:48.671 --> 00:20:51.651
how that impacts our customers. But at the end of the

00:20:51.661 --> 00:20:54.760
day, it is it, would be very imperative for me

00:20:54.770 --> 00:20:57.500
to not call on the fact that. Within the first 3

00:20:57.510 --> 00:21:01.082
years of our operation in 2023, several of our discussions

00:21:01.092 --> 00:21:06.068
from (inaudible) change out specific to the residential

00:21:06.078 --> 00:21:08.910
home energy efficiency program are hard to reach 

00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.189
HVAC platforms. Have a lot of our conversations has

00:21:12.199 --> 00:21:14.578
happened to that. What does this mean? What, what's

00:21:14.588 --> 00:21:17.299
the impact for this? Where's where's your cost effectiveness?

00:21:17.489 --> 00:21:20.078
So those are the two biggest changes that we've seen

00:21:20.088 --> 00:21:24.078
for our measures. With that being said, the goal of

00:21:24.088 --> 00:21:27.309
my team is to always continue to look for ways to expand

00:21:27.318 --> 00:21:29.959
our program as well as introduce new measures within

00:21:29.969 --> 00:21:34.959
our programs. So for 2023, we are introducing a

00:21:34.969 --> 00:21:38.769
radiant barrier for all of our standard offer programs.

00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:41.670
Our standard offer programs to cater to a radiant barrier 

00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.338
is a residential measure and say I wrote it down. I

00:21:45.348 --> 00:21:47.868
thought I memorized it, but apparently I didn't. So

00:21:47.939 --> 00:21:51.140
a radiant barrier as defined in the Texas CRM. Is

00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:54.939
a highly reflective material designed to block radiant

00:21:54.949 --> 00:21:57.989
heat transfer between a roof and added space installation,

00:21:58.328 --> 00:21:59.140
insulation.

00:22:01.029 --> 00:22:03.430
This is introduced in all of our programs and I have

00:22:03.439 --> 00:22:05.868
a, I have a great team. Um and the team has designed

00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:09.519
a way as to engage our, our service providers to be

00:22:09.529 --> 00:22:11.979
able to introduce this measure. We just introduced

00:22:11.989 --> 00:22:14.189
it this year and essentially launched it for our standard

00:22:14.199 --> 00:22:16.949
offer program. We'll be able to assess what the pick

00:22:16.959 --> 00:22:20.259
up of that would be for, um in the, in the 2024

00:22:20.269 --> 00:22:23.880
discussion on the program. Also in our small business

00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:27.239
direct install program, I will couch that our small

00:22:27.250 --> 00:22:30.479
business direct install program. Is a market transformation

00:22:30.489 --> 00:22:35.039
program that's specifically designed to attract small

00:22:35.049 --> 00:22:39.088
businesses less than 200 KW outside of the rural area

00:22:39.098 --> 00:22:42.358
within the DFW Metro. That they are considered as

00:22:42.368 --> 00:22:45.434
part of our commercial standard offer program. But because

00:22:45.443 --> 00:22:48.473
there's a niche and a necessity to ensure that all

00:22:48.483 --> 00:22:51.515
of our energy efficiency incentives are scattered across

00:22:51.525 --> 00:22:54.125
the service territory. We designed uh what, what we

00:22:54.134 --> 00:22:56.743
call internally as an SBI Market Transformation

00:22:56.755 --> 00:23:00.785
program. New this year is we're introducing HVAC

00:23:00.795 --> 00:23:07.269
tune-ups, refrigeration as well as um other uh HVAC,

00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.309
HVAC measures within, within this program. Um why they're

00:23:11.318 --> 00:23:13.930
new this year as opposed to last year. It's predominantly

00:23:13.939 --> 00:23:17.108
our SBI program is majority fixed on commercial

00:23:17.118 --> 00:23:19.989
lighting. So it's, it's retrofit lighting that we mostly

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:23.358
see for that program. And as I mentioned earlier for

00:23:23.368 --> 00:23:25.739
a retail products program, because we are using lighting

00:23:25.750 --> 00:23:28.640
as a measure. We're seeing less savings this year and

00:23:28.650 --> 00:23:32.348
definitely none for 2024. What we're, what we're ensuring

00:23:32.358 --> 00:23:35.150
is the continuity and sustainability of that program

00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.219
So we are continuing to introduce new measures into

00:23:38.229 --> 00:23:41.515
that retail platform and this includes heat pump, water

00:23:41.525 --> 00:23:44.693
heaters, pipe insulation, clothes washers, clothes

00:23:44.703 --> 00:23:47.713
dryers. And we're always con continuously looking at

00:23:47.723 --> 00:23:51.765
ways to be able to introduce high energy efficient

00:23:51.775 --> 00:23:55.463
measures where customers purchase. Um these measures

00:23:55.473 --> 00:23:59.209
more than the direct install specific to our programs

00:23:59.219 --> 00:24:01.828
We are also expanding our programs. So for the new

00:24:01.838 --> 00:24:07.130
homes program and this will start in 2024. Our current

00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:11.098
program is designed to um I believe ser has mentioned

00:24:11.108 --> 00:24:15.209
this earlier um where it's looking at rated star energy

00:24:15.219 --> 00:24:18.309
star rated homes as well as V O E zero Energy Ready

00:24:18.318 --> 00:24:21.269
Home. But and in addition to that, we also look at

00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.880
prescriptive measures that we also add within each

00:24:23.890 --> 00:24:26.608
uh individual premise. Of course, the incentives are

00:24:26.618 --> 00:24:31.328
paid to the builder. What's new in 2024 is we are expanding

00:24:31.338 --> 00:24:35.239
that program to now incentivize individual units for

00:24:35.250 --> 00:24:38.140
multifamily properties. So that's an expansion that

00:24:38.150 --> 00:24:40.529
we're doing for the new homes construction. So it's

00:24:40.539 --> 00:24:43.430
looking at it not from a building perspective but still

00:24:43.439 --> 00:24:47.640
at the residential premise perspective. Our Load Management

00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:52.140
Program where we historically um launch events for

00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.838
the Section 25.181 as well as the PRM define peak

00:24:57.848 --> 00:25:01.939
demand within certain um days, months, as well as time

00:25:01.949 --> 00:25:04.799
for both Summer and Winter. We're expanding our Load

00:25:04.809 --> 00:25:09.354
management for both are Summer, residential and commercial

00:25:09.364 --> 00:25:12.814
Winter and Summer. So now we have 24/7 road management.

00:25:13.213 --> 00:25:16.515
What it essentially means is if and when you have an

00:25:16.525 --> 00:25:21.055
event at 1 in the morning or 10 in the morning, outside

00:25:21.064 --> 00:25:25.154
of the parameters of what's defined as a TRM.

00:25:25.989 --> 00:25:29.719
We have the ability to be able to call on those resources.

00:25:29.890 --> 00:25:33.029
We're call, we are defining these parameters still

00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.118
within ERCOT guidelines. And we will be calling them

00:25:36.130 --> 00:25:39.568
starting at PEA Level 1 as well as PEA Level

00:25:39.578 --> 00:25:43.009
2 where this um where how the program is currently

00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:46.170
designed is we're only able to call them at PEA Level

00:25:46.180 --> 00:25:51.009
2 and able to calculate savings only if the event

00:25:51.019 --> 00:25:57.029
is within the Summer and Winter. That definition um

00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.568
and I've mentioned the Smart Thermostat program before

00:25:59.578 --> 00:26:02.108
and commercial midstream. So commercial midstream is

00:26:02.118 --> 00:26:04.930
a program that we always have within our portfolio.

00:26:05.269 --> 00:26:08.848
What it is is we're trying to determine where our energy

00:26:08.858 --> 00:26:12.088
incentives make the most impact. We follow them through

00:26:12.098 --> 00:26:14.400
the supply chain, whether they make the most impact

00:26:14.410 --> 00:26:17.588
at the manufacturer level, distributor level, um

00:26:17.598 --> 00:26:21.660
or even at the service provider level. For commercial

00:26:21.670 --> 00:26:24.400
midstream, the current measure we offer is the HVAC.

00:26:24.410 --> 00:26:28.299
We started in 2024, we will be launching the commercial

00:26:28.309 --> 00:26:31.459
kitchen equipment specific to commercial midstream.

00:26:31.469 --> 00:26:34.459
And what how that design, how that program is currently

00:26:34.469 --> 00:26:37.098
designed is we're go, we're going to ensure that our

00:26:37.199 --> 00:26:41.568
incentives actually hit um across the supply chain.

00:26:41.578 --> 00:26:44.630
So whether it's more impactful at the design level,

00:26:44.660 --> 00:26:47.868
at the architecture level or even at the installation

00:26:48.078 --> 00:26:49.598
um or distributor level.

00:26:51.509 --> 00:26:54.390
Apart from the new programs, program expansions, as

00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:56.588
well as new measures that we plan on introducing our

00:26:56.598 --> 00:26:59.890
portfolio, whether this year or next year. Uh what

00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:03.578
we always constantly do is research and study evolving

00:27:03.588 --> 00:27:06.779
technologies. So some of the emerging technology studies

00:27:06.789 --> 00:27:09.880
we have currently or will be participating. One is

00:27:09.890 --> 00:27:14.400
the CEE emerging technology study, CEEs and Organizations

00:27:15.630 --> 00:27:18.469
Consortium for energy efficiency. So CEE Consortium

00:27:18.479 --> 00:27:21.368
for energy efficiency and they run an emerging technology

00:27:21.380 --> 00:27:24.289
study. Prior to that, we also have participated in

00:27:24.299 --> 00:27:26.699
an emerging technology study for one of our implementors.

00:27:27.108 --> 00:27:30.309
It's always an ongoing study that we want to see how

00:27:30.318 --> 00:27:33.920
other states operate their, um their technologies,

00:27:34.199 --> 00:27:37.299
whether it may or may not be applicable for Texas. One

00:27:37.309 --> 00:27:41.029
thing that we've always, um one thing that we've always

00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.098
stated is some technologies that apply safe for New

00:27:44.108 --> 00:27:47.348
England or California may not be applicable to Texas

00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:51.130
But with weather constantly changing, um California

00:27:51.140 --> 00:27:56.680
had snow and um our win will Texas had snow as well

00:27:56.689 --> 00:28:00.219
We had a winter storm here. We're actually just now

00:28:00.229 --> 00:28:03.818
trying to see and anticipate what technologies that

00:28:03.828 --> 00:28:06.650
may not have been applicable for us would potentially

00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:09.348
be applicable for us. Five years down the road and

00:28:09.358 --> 00:28:11.868
a lot of it is expertise that we don't have. So we

00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.199
rely on other experts to be able to tell us how it

00:28:14.209 --> 00:28:17.979
works for them. Second is we're always looking at new

00:28:17.989 --> 00:28:20.430
measures. So we're looking at a study for cold climate

00:28:20.439 --> 00:28:23.799
heat pumps. We're also looking at study for storm windows.

00:28:23.809 --> 00:28:27.348
Um my team is always looking at studies for understanding

00:28:27.358 --> 00:28:30.868
the impact of solar and battery storage. But one of

00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.068
the R&D studies that we will be launching this

00:28:33.078 --> 00:28:36.743
year is the managed EV charging study. So, so we um

00:28:36.755 --> 00:28:40.334
established a portal where we're able to see and understand

00:28:40.344 --> 00:28:43.765
who or what fleet commercial feats are coming into

00:28:43.775 --> 00:28:46.765
our system, understanding the number of premises, they

00:28:46.775 --> 00:28:49.424
need the type of reconstruction, they need number of

00:28:49.434 --> 00:28:52.324
meters, the number of commercial premises. And we're

00:28:52.334 --> 00:28:54.943
looking for a certain number of participants where

00:28:54.953 --> 00:28:58.608
they can talk to them about operational strategies

00:28:58.618 --> 00:29:02.769
as far as how they can maximize or be able to reduce

00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:05.920
their demand through the managed EV charging studies. How

00:29:05.930 --> 00:29:08.828
we're looking at it at this time is essentially understanding

00:29:08.838 --> 00:29:11.890
what their peak demand is. What the operational requirement

00:29:11.900 --> 00:29:15.900
for these specific peak premises and be able to fully

00:29:15.910 --> 00:29:19.509
understand what they as an operation can do to be able

00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:22.689
to reduce their demand. Um we have talked to, to this

00:29:22.699 --> 00:29:26.509
study with Tetra Tech. And we're always going to ensure that

00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:28.719
at the end of the day, a a study is great, but

00:29:28.729 --> 00:29:32.039
we're always looking for ways to potentially enroll

00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:34.838
uh potentially convert that study into a program. If

00:29:34.848 --> 00:29:37.618
and then feasible, feasible by cost effectiveness and

00:29:37.630 --> 00:29:42.269
feasible by of course. Um technological applicability

00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:43.309
as well as market pick up.

00:29:45.170 --> 00:29:48.130
Um and that's it for the Oncor energy efficiency portfolio.

00:29:48.289 --> 00:29:52.009
Yes, questions? I'll, I'll ask the question

00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:56.578
again. The smart thermostat program for multi-family

00:29:56.588 --> 00:30:01.439
is that also just um like a deemed or a calculated

00:30:01.449 --> 00:30:05.459
savings for getting them to install it? Or is it related

00:30:05.469 --> 00:30:10.239
(inaudible) Correct. So at this time, what's the, how

00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:12.828
the program has evolved is we have a multi-family uh

00:30:12.838 --> 00:30:17.650
program. Where we have one implementer instead of focusing

00:30:17.660 --> 00:30:20.000
only on HVAC, they will now focus on HVAC

00:30:20.009 --> 00:30:23.009
as well as smart thermostat. There's separation

00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:26.380
there from a demand response. Um however, one of the

00:30:26.390 --> 00:30:29.189
ways and benefits with understanding who our installers

00:30:29.199 --> 00:30:31.598
are. Is also understanding whether or not there's a

00:30:31.608 --> 00:30:34.259
capability in getting them enrolled as part of the

00:30:34.269 --> 00:30:35.439
Road Management program.

00:30:37.430 --> 00:30:40.219
And could we go back to the first slide again? I'm

00:30:40.229 --> 00:30:43.059
sorry, I'm rushed down all the details. You gave me

00:30:43.068 --> 00:30:47.229
about 15 seconds on that. I just want um I noticed

00:30:47.239 --> 00:30:53.059
you only asked for about $214,000 for R&D. Given all

00:30:53.068 --> 00:30:57.209
the things happening is uh that doesn't seem like very

00:30:57.219 --> 00:31:00.930
much for $52 million program. Absolutely. So funny

00:31:00.939 --> 00:31:04.509
story. This are, this forecast was created last year

00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:07.309
where majority of the managed EV charging study and

00:31:07.318 --> 00:31:09.949
the whole climate study came at the latter part of

00:31:09.959 --> 00:31:13.078
the year. So we're always ensuring that the R&D

00:31:13.088 --> 00:31:16.759
study we save, we're gonna spend. Uh we say we're gonna

00:31:16.769 --> 00:31:18.640
spend, it's actually how we actually spend for the

00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:23.009
year. Um for the 2024 forecast, we've increased it.

00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:26.900
So for example, for the managed EV charging study. Majority of

00:31:26.910 --> 00:31:30.130
what we're doing now is outreach, recruiting and effort.

00:31:30.140 --> 00:31:34.140
We're going to see the impact of from a dollar perspective

00:31:34.150 --> 00:31:37.459
on those, if not the latter part of 2023, potentially

00:31:37.469 --> 00:31:41.348
into 2024. So we bid at a higher R&D cost

00:31:41.358 --> 00:31:45.358
for 2024. And, and I don't quite understand how the

00:31:45.368 --> 00:31:48.640
Summer/Winter peaking thing works, and now you're complicating

00:31:48.650 --> 00:31:53.358
it further. But, so here you said 35,000 for the winter

00:31:53.368 --> 00:31:56.608
commercial Load Management. Oh, that's a pilot. So

00:31:56.618 --> 00:31:59.459
those are different customers than the ones and the

00:31:59.469 --> 00:32:02.750
other one? They could be or they could be the same. So,

00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:10.068
difference is they have to enroll. Some of the 60,000 are Summer and the 35 are Winter

00:32:10.078 --> 00:32:13.299
and some of those are the same customer? That's correct

00:32:13.689 --> 00:32:15.719
That's correct. They could be, but they don't have

00:32:15.729 --> 00:32:18.890
to be. (item:6:38578, Gary Jones with Oncor responding to question) Yeah Bob, (inaudible) they're two separate

00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:23.930
programs. We've had two separate incentives. Uh, right now. So

00:32:23.939 --> 00:32:26.459
if they, they would reenroll in the winter program

00:32:26.469 --> 00:32:30.618
if they chose to participate. And it's, it's not always

00:32:30.630 --> 00:32:32.799
the same customers, but we don't eliminate that as

00:32:32.809 --> 00:32:35.759
a possibility if they wanna continue operating in our

00:32:35.769 --> 00:32:40.750
program. What we're doing right now, the primary thing

00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:45.848
that we're doing is expanding it to a 24/7 program. And come

00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:50.539
2024, we'll be expanding and, and, and broadening both

00:32:50.549 --> 00:32:53.358
the winter and the summer peak or the winter and summer

00:32:53.479 --> 00:32:56.588
start date and end date. So that we have a year round

00:32:56.598 --> 00:33:00.049
program also. It will still be two separate programs

00:33:00.059 --> 00:33:03.939
with one program will end. Uh, and the next day the

00:33:03.949 --> 00:33:07.410
uh, the new program will start. So but it, it will

00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:09.689
be a winter program, a summer program that will be

00:33:09.699 --> 00:33:15.789
24/7, 365 days. But you're adding the 60 and the 35

00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:17.818
together toward your goal? Correct.

00:33:20.549 --> 00:33:24.059
But they are two separate programs, two separate incentives

00:33:24.390 --> 00:33:25.858
and for two specific (inaudible).

00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:32.039
Ok. I'm still having a little trouble wrapping my head

00:33:32.049 --> 00:33:36.920
around. You have an annual goal for reduction capacity.

00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:41.259
Seemed like that should be an annual reduction. If we,

00:33:41.269 --> 00:33:44.140
we have identified two peaks and now you're going to

00:33:44.150 --> 00:33:51.539
24/7, you know, 365. That would only be one program

00:33:51.549 --> 00:33:56.189
but, um. It would be difficult to get customers to

00:33:56.199 --> 00:33:58.390
sign (inaudible).

00:34:00.838 --> 00:34:02.729
(inaudible) capability.

00:34:04.598 --> 00:34:09.159
(inaudible) Ok. Sure. Um, and, and to shed a little bit of light

00:34:09.168 --> 00:34:12.188
on that too. Historically, based on the Texas weather

00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:16.639
we've always only had the summer um, peak demand. But

00:34:16.648 --> 00:34:18.800
we've, we've had the winter peak demand definition.

00:34:18.809 --> 00:34:20.829
But our Load management has always been predominant

00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.418
indicated to the summer. When due to the Winter Storm

00:34:24.429 --> 00:34:27.853
Uri, we've had to identify a winter Load Management

00:34:27.864 --> 00:34:31.905
program for emergency level resources if and when needed.

00:34:32.083 --> 00:34:36.715
So, having the two um, separate programs is viable.

00:34:36.724 --> 00:34:39.083
So, because we can't call the one for summer and we

00:34:39.094 --> 00:34:41.543
can't call the one for winter. Specifically because

00:34:41.554 --> 00:34:44.429
sometimes some of your custom, sometimes some of your

00:34:44.438 --> 00:34:48.349
customers for summer peak will not peak in winter.

00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:51.659
Um, our summer peak is between 1 to 6 pm from June

00:34:51.668 --> 00:34:55.668
to September. Whereas our winter peak is 6am to

00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.918
10am and 6pm to 10pm in the afternoon for

00:34:59.929 --> 00:35:04.648
winter. Your uh, your premises majority of your premises

00:35:04.659 --> 00:35:08.628
um, operations would be different. So catering to two

00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.469
specific programs would help us really make sure that

00:35:12.478 --> 00:35:15.239
the impact of our peak demand is best depending on

00:35:15.250 --> 00:35:18.030
the requirements and the needs of specific premise

00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:23.070
So again, though, your commercial program is addressing

00:35:23.938 --> 00:35:28.438
generation shortages when you say emergency. That's

00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:32.648
correct. So it's not based on local congestion or local

00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:37.429
like your own utility. Not at this time. That's correct. It's not paying

00:35:37.438 --> 00:35:40.208
for demand response. So would help you operate the

00:35:40.219 --> 00:35:44.090
utility better. Correct. As it, it's currently defined. It is

00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:48.458
based off of ERCOT emergency level alerts. Um, however it

00:35:48.469 --> 00:35:51.139
is one of those where we are identifying whether or

00:35:51.148 --> 00:35:53.809
not it is a viable potential. Because at the end of

00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:56.159
the day, there is local congestion, there is no targeted

00:35:56.168 --> 00:35:59.039
demand response. But within the framework of what we

00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:02.269
can and can't do within the Texas CRM. What makes

00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:06.554
the most sense for us is to identify and um call

00:36:06.563 --> 00:36:09.434
resources. Based on are third party emergency level alerts.

00:36:09.724 --> 00:36:13.364
Um we do run a test event because the test event helps

00:36:13.375 --> 00:36:16.204
us identify what the potential for that specific premise

00:36:16.215 --> 00:36:20.175
would be. And absent and call EA Level 2 events

00:36:20.184 --> 00:36:23.235
how the program is currently designed. We pay our commercial

00:36:23.244 --> 00:36:26.244
premises based off of how they function on the test

00:36:26.253 --> 00:36:26.614
event.

00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:31.610
Um Jean, I'm gonna timekeep you guys. Just because

00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:35.349
if you don't mind. Because we really want people back

00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:40.000
at 1 for our afternoon. Sure. So yeah, so I'm gonna call

00:36:40.010 --> 00:36:40.228
up AEP.

00:36:44.208 --> 00:36:48.000
That's me, that's me. My bad. Let's go Bob. I'm sure Jean will be available and Gary when we break for

00:36:48.010 --> 00:36:51.409
for lunch. But um, thank you. Thank you very much.

00:36:52.188 --> 00:36:52.208
(clapping)

00:36:59.708 --> 00:37:03.199
All right. Now your coming downhill.

00:37:05.309 --> 00:37:09.188
All right. (item:6.1:38578, Robert Cavazos with AEP Texas discussing their programs) Well, I'm Robert with AEP Texas and our

00:37:09.208 --> 00:37:14.699
programs are not as complicated. Right up front, as you'll

00:37:14.708 --> 00:37:18.110
see in the next slide here. Uh our budget pretty much

00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:21.909
stayed the same about $18.7 million. We don't have

00:37:21.918 --> 00:37:25.469
many differences here. Uh for the exception on the

00:37:25.478 --> 00:37:26.489
next slide, please.

00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:32.648
You'll see that uh we too entered into the winter

00:37:32.659 --> 00:37:38.260
program, Winter Load program this year. Um we started

00:37:38.269 --> 00:37:44.769
it in December 1st and it expired February 28th of

00:37:44.780 --> 00:37:48.349
this year. So it's a '23 program, that's our pilot. In

00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.059
'24, it will no longer be a pilot. It will be a

00:37:51.070 --> 00:37:56.110
viable program itself. Uh we also are starting up a

00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:59.628
commercial food service pilot for this year. That's

00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:03.050
just now getting off the ground and identifying customers.

00:38:03.478 --> 00:38:06.958
So we're eager to see how that works out for us as

00:38:06.969 --> 00:38:10.809
well. But as far as the other programs, they're thriving

00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:13.590
they're doing well. We do have a couple of hurdles

00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:18.489
that we have heard from the field and that is from

00:38:18.510 --> 00:38:23.918
our implementers and our third party vendors. Their cost

00:38:23.929 --> 00:38:29.610
of doing business is going up. Not before we had uh

00:38:29.619 --> 00:38:35.199
during the pandemic, we had a supply issue. Now that

00:38:35.208 --> 00:38:37.590
we're starting to see more supplies come in little

00:38:37.750 --> 00:38:40.898
as they are. We're seeing the cost of the supply go

00:38:40.909 --> 00:38:44.159
up for them. So their cost of doing business within

00:38:44.168 --> 00:38:49.110
our territory has increased. So we're having to find

00:38:49.429 --> 00:38:54.010
a midpoint for them. To keep them interested and keep

00:38:54.019 --> 00:38:57.199
them engaged in our footprint. As you know, our footprint

00:38:57.208 --> 00:39:03.458
covers 97 counties. I believe it is 94, 97 counties.

00:39:03.469 --> 00:39:07.199
So it is widespread and it is difficult to get to all

00:39:07.208 --> 00:39:10.719
of them and we are encouraging them to get to all of

00:39:10.728 --> 00:39:14.789
them. But with the cost of materials, it does put a

00:39:14.829 --> 00:39:17.360
hamper on that. Next slide, please.

00:39:18.898 --> 00:39:21.260
As I mentioned, we've got the Winter Load Management

00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:23.570
program that we're going to be highlighting here in

00:39:23.579 --> 00:39:29.289
23 and 24. Moving forward, that program is geared for our

00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:33.539
commercial customers with 5 KW and above. It is

00:39:33.550 --> 00:39:39.909
also a 24/7, 365. We're not there yet,

00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:45.889
but it is a 24/7 operation or program. These customers

00:39:45.898 --> 00:39:48.610
that participate in this program, they get a 30 minute

00:39:48.619 --> 00:39:56.918
notice from us. Yeah, email, text and a phone call and

00:39:56.929 --> 00:39:59.659
they will be shed and Load for 4 hours. Okay. It's

00:39:59.668 --> 00:40:03.750
a mandatory 4 hour shed. Uh The participants in

00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:09.679
here uh can be anybody as you see. A commercial customer,

00:40:10.070 --> 00:40:14.019
energy efficiency service provider or any aggregate

00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:18.228
or REP can participate in this program. Uh of course

00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:22.090
uh they just follow the rules of the manual and, and

00:40:22.099 --> 00:40:26.409
registered to be a provider. The other program here

00:40:26.418 --> 00:40:30.168
is our food service pilot. Like I said, that one is

00:40:30.179 --> 00:40:34.289
just now getting off the ground. Our targets here again

00:40:34.300 --> 00:40:38.159
is commercial food services. Okay. And it's going to

00:40:38.168 --> 00:40:42.599
be a point-of-sale type of program. So we're expecting

00:40:42.610 --> 00:40:46.179
good things from this one in the coming years. This

00:40:46.188 --> 00:40:49.889
one is going to start off slow. We expect that, but

00:40:49.898 --> 00:40:52.860
we want to build a foundation so we can expand that

00:40:52.869 --> 00:40:55.780
throughout the footprint. Uh a couple of highlights

00:40:55.789 --> 00:40:59.909
that we had that are not on the slides. Is our um

00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.639
we had a program. Excuse me, I'm going to have to see

00:41:05.648 --> 00:41:12.289
this on my other eyes. Uh we had a low-income heartery

00:41:12.409 --> 00:41:16.179
solar program out in the (inaudible) Springs area. How many

00:41:16.188 --> 00:41:19.530
of you know where that is? Okay. It's very rural, right?

00:41:19.539 --> 00:41:23.708
Very small town. Well we, we're the first utility

00:41:23.949 --> 00:41:29.239
to actually partner up with NREL to

00:41:29.250 --> 00:41:33.780
provide solar panels for a low-income community. Okay

00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:39.989
We installed uh solar panels for 13 units. Um and by

00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:43.360
at this point, everybody's happy things are working

00:41:43.369 --> 00:41:47.570
out really well. They met their deadlines. Um the installations

00:41:47.579 --> 00:41:52.559
were there. Customers are happy and we're going to

00:41:52.570 --> 00:41:54.909
turn them back on and go on to the next project. But

00:41:54.918 --> 00:41:57.849
we're very proud of that fact. That we were able to

00:41:57.860 --> 00:42:02.648
participate with Frontier Energy. Uh in providing that

00:42:02.659 --> 00:42:06.019
service to that part of the community service territory.

00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:11.829
Um yeah, that's all I had. I just want, I wanna make

00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:14.478
sure I touch bases on that solar project that we had.

00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:18.750
Just real quick here. A four hour on your, your uh winter

00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:21.530
Load Management. So if you call over to that, it is

00:42:21.539 --> 00:42:25.679
four hours in duration period. Yes. Ok. Yeah, it is

00:42:25.688 --> 00:42:27.750
a four hour period.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.489
Can I ask you to go back to the budget too? Sure

00:42:32.688 --> 00:42:37.539
(inaudible) So I do want to quickly say all of these presentations

00:42:37.550 --> 00:42:40.648
will be filed in EEIP. So everyone will have access

00:42:40.659 --> 00:42:41.128
to them.

00:42:43.898 --> 00:42:44.469
Yes, sir.

00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:50.469
He's internalizing. Oh, he's getting it. (inaudible) 

00:42:50.590 --> 00:42:54.679
Just wanted to see it. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's actually

00:42:54.688 --> 00:42:58.019
uh pretty straightforward. And like last year, it's

00:42:58.030 --> 00:43:02.769
just a little tweak here and there. Uh based on some projections

00:43:02.780 --> 00:43:05.570
based from '22 and 2021.

00:43:08.099 --> 00:43:13.309
The participation and of course our, our growth that

00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:15.059
we're expecting were in AEP Texas.

00:43:18.289 --> 00:43:23.148
Yes, ma'am. On that solar project, was it a government funded

00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:26.000
and you just partly incentive or did you fully fund it?

00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:29.139
No, no. It's uh partnered with NREL government.

00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:37.099
It's a National Renewable Energy Laboratories. Yeah.

00:43:38.019 --> 00:43:40.219
Yeah, so we partnered with them. And then you just gave

00:43:40.228 --> 00:43:42.250
them an incentive for. Yes.

00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:48.418
Was that the multi family property? It was 13 units,

00:43:48.510 --> 00:43:52.280
right? It's uh the owners of it was the Community Service

00:43:52.289 --> 00:43:53.699
Agency of South Texas.

00:43:57.110 --> 00:44:00.090
They had to come up with a portion of the funding to

00:44:00.099 --> 00:44:03.628
participate in the (inaudible) project. But in our and

00:44:03.648 --> 00:44:07.329
the tenants are benefiting. The benefit, the benefit areas

00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:07.869
are the tenants.

00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:15.039
Yes. For this uh winter management program,

00:44:16.708 --> 00:44:21.679
so the customers really get paid for that

00:44:23.208 --> 00:44:28.449
(inaudible). Yeah, they get an incentive based on the 

00:44:28.458 --> 00:44:32.619
kWh that they produce or they shed during that

00:44:32.628 --> 00:44:35.458
4 hour period. When

00:44:37.010 --> 00:44:41.079
the Load is set (inaudible). We get the meter

00:44:41.090 --> 00:44:45.570
data based off on. Uh we do a test um prior to the

00:44:45.579 --> 00:44:49.599
season starting at the beginning of the program period,

00:44:49.878 --> 00:44:53.449
we'll do a test run. That test run is about an hour

00:44:53.458 --> 00:44:57.340
I believe it is. And then we, that's our baseline. And

00:44:57.349 --> 00:45:00.820
then from there we do the 4 hours uh Load shed. And then

00:45:00.829 --> 00:45:04.449
we get the meter data after that then compare the 2 and

00:45:04.510 --> 00:45:04.938
come up with the,

00:45:07.409 --> 00:45:11.039
incentive. Is that that funding boost from the (inaudible).

00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:14.429
No, that's from our incentive. That budget.

00:45:18.610 --> 00:45:22.750
Very good. Any other questions? I told you it'd be easy.

00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:30.570
Morgan.

00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:36.550
(inaudible)

00:45:38.909 --> 00:45:38.929
(inaudible)

00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:47.110
This is how many notes I have, not very many. Um gonna

00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:49.610
go up here, so I don't have my back to anybody.

00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:54.570
(item:6.2:38578, Stefani Case with TX-New Mexico Power Co., discusses their programs) My name is Stefani Case. I'm with Texas-New Mexico

00:45:54.579 --> 00:45:58.969
Power Company, TNMP. Um Manager of the Energy Efficiency

00:45:58.978 --> 00:46:02.679
portfolio there. Perks to going last, everything I'm

00:46:02.688 --> 00:46:05.208
about to say you've heard at some point throughout

00:46:05.219 --> 00:46:11.250
this morning. So, um hopefully I can add a little something

00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:15.559
at least, you know flair. Next slide, please.

00:46:18.398 --> 00:46:21.039
Like you've heard from other utilities, our budget

00:46:21.050 --> 00:46:26.929
has remained fairly steady over the past maybe 5

00:46:26.938 --> 00:46:33.300
years. Um same with the goals that we have set. Everything

00:46:33.309 --> 00:46:37.188
in these projections is gonna be basically the same

00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:41.699
on the next slide. However, when we, when we filed

00:46:41.708 --> 00:46:46.958
our (inaudible) last year, we did not um consider a Winter Load

00:46:46.969 --> 00:46:49.929
Management program. So that's one program that is missing

00:46:49.938 --> 00:46:53.000
from this slide that will be on the next. Uh we developed

00:46:53.010 --> 00:46:54.668
the budget for that later on in the year,

00:46:56.809 --> 00:47:00.849
since it starts in 2022. If you would, um next slide

00:47:00.860 --> 00:47:02.708
please. Uh Mr. King?

00:47:06.030 --> 00:47:10.409
Yeah, it's fine. Thank you. So under the commercial program list, you

00:47:10.418 --> 00:47:12.909
can see we've added Winter Load Management and changed

00:47:12.918 --> 00:47:15.938
the name of our Load Management, SOP to Summer Load

00:47:15.949 --> 00:47:19.449
Management to avoid confusion. Everything else here

00:47:19.458 --> 00:47:23.949
remains the same. As one of the other utilities mentioned

00:47:23.958 --> 00:47:27.418
earlier, some of these programs operate as umbrellas.

00:47:27.429 --> 00:47:32.418
And what we do every year because of a variety of reasons.

00:47:32.829 --> 00:47:35.929
Um is focus more on what's going on inside, adjust

00:47:35.938 --> 00:47:38.469
the measures, try to target things differently. We

00:47:38.478 --> 00:47:42.489
focus more on program design and trying to make tweaks

00:47:42.500 --> 00:47:46.019
based on lessons learned. Instead of necessarily adding

00:47:46.030 --> 00:47:49.590
new programs. However, we are in talks with a few um

00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:52.760
implementers and working on a couple of proposals for

00:47:52.769 --> 00:47:57.418
2024 that we started last year. We just wasn't comfortable

00:47:57.429 --> 00:48:01.860
enough um committing to them on a slide. But we're

00:48:01.869 --> 00:48:06.610
hoping to add um potentially one maybe two new programs

00:48:06.619 --> 00:48:10.599
to our residential portfolio for 2024, if not

00:48:10.610 --> 00:48:14.648
2025. Just trying to work out the cost effectiveness

00:48:14.659 --> 00:48:17.938
to see if it's something that we can include in our

00:48:17.949 --> 00:48:21.728
portfolio. Cost effectiveness specifically is something

00:48:21.739 --> 00:48:23.628
that has, that we've seen

00:48:25.659 --> 00:48:29.418
as a greater challenge as we go on throughout the years.

00:48:29.429 --> 00:48:33.309
Our commercial portfolio used to come in, in more of

00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:36.648
the 4-6 range. And now every, almost every one of our

00:48:36.659 --> 00:48:39.909
programs is more of a 2-3 range. So it's becoming more

00:48:39.918 --> 00:48:43.989
expensive to get the same savings that we used to get

00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:46.909
to spears credit. Thank you for bringing that up earlier.

00:48:46.918 --> 00:48:50.978
We, you know, would also like to see cost effectiveness

00:48:50.989 --> 00:48:53.320
at the portfolio level. To allow us a little bit more

00:48:53.329 --> 00:48:56.679
flexibility to pilot some programs. So thank you for

00:48:56.688 --> 00:48:58.389
bringing that up and I think we'll be talking about

00:48:58.398 --> 00:48:59.329
that this afternoon.

00:49:01.590 --> 00:49:02.708
Um next slide.

00:49:06.878 --> 00:49:09.610
Like some of the other utilities you've heard today,

00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:13.628
we have a winter Load Management pilot program. I wanted

00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:15.668
to go back a little bit and start with the history

00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:19.110
of this. So in response to Senate Bill 3, as a

00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:23.369
you know, in response to Uri. Uh the 87th Legislative

00:49:23.378 --> 00:49:26.688
Session, we set up an interim Load Management pilot

00:49:26.699 --> 00:49:36.648
program. We're in Docket No. 52689 AEP, TNMP and

00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:41.179
CenterPoint filed petitions um in order to design

00:49:41.188 --> 00:49:44.750
and set up the programs. That started uh December of

00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:51.030
2021, and ran through February of 2022. Based on the success

00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:55.079
of that, we then decided. Well, that was for TNMP

00:49:55.090 --> 00:49:58.449
specifically run outside of energy efficiency. We ran

00:49:58.458 --> 00:50:01.378
it as a regulatory asset, but because it was successful.

00:50:01.389 --> 00:50:05.059
Because it proves useful to potentially in the event

00:50:05.070 --> 00:50:08.168
of an ERCOT emergency. We moved it into the energy

00:50:08.179 --> 00:50:10.949
efficiency portfolio. So that's why I'm highlighting

00:50:10.958 --> 00:50:11.679
it for you

00:50:13.409 --> 00:50:17.789
today. And then just basically wanted to focus on the

00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:20.289
differences between the winter and the summer program.

00:50:20.300 --> 00:50:22.978
Which have also kind of been covered a little bit today.

00:50:23.188 --> 00:50:27.909
Um for winter, the operating period is different than

00:50:27.918 --> 00:50:31.829
summer based on the winter and summer peaks. But also

00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:34.969
in the winter program, we're operating 24 hours a day

00:50:34.978 --> 00:50:39.679
seven days a week. Summer is what you're used to the

00:50:39.688 --> 00:50:43.429
1pm to 7pm, June through September. The baselines

00:50:43.438 --> 00:50:46.418
are also different for each of the programs, calculating

00:50:46.429 --> 00:50:47.409
their savings.

00:50:49.340 --> 00:50:52.019
That's something that we worked with Tetra Tech on

00:50:52.030 --> 00:50:55.628
to develop. Um it just seemed more appropriate to be

00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:58.039
using a different baseline. Winter is more variable,

00:50:58.050 --> 00:51:02.340
so it has a few more days than Summer. Thank you. And

00:51:02.349 --> 00:51:05.050
then the similarities are just that each one has at

00:51:05.059 --> 00:51:08.219
least a 30 minute notification. A total of 5 curtailments

00:51:08.228 --> 00:51:12.869
which includes the scheduled test, running for anywhere

00:51:12.878 --> 00:51:17.050
from 1 to 4 hours. Not a firm 4 hour requirement

00:51:17.708 --> 00:51:22.110
The energy of um, what's it? I wrote it down back to

00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:27.628
notes. ERCOT emergency, Energy Emergency Alert Level

00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:31.059
2. I've always said EEA Level 2. So that is

00:51:31.070 --> 00:51:33.429
our trigger for both programs and the incentive is

00:51:33.438 --> 00:51:36.579
the same $40 per KW curtailed.

00:51:39.418 --> 00:51:42.280
That's all I have for you today, unless you have questions?

00:51:43.610 --> 00:51:49.360
Okay, I'm gonna pick on you a little bit. Go ahead. So tell

00:51:49.369 --> 00:51:54.340
me about this 24/7 thing. Since ERCOT hasn't seemed

00:51:54.349 --> 00:51:58.369
to think that's necessary ,why do you? I believe that

00:51:58.378 --> 00:52:01.539
came out of our settlement negotiations. When we were

00:52:01.550 --> 00:52:05.228
it's, it should be listed in the docket for 52689. When

00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:09.820
we developed and designed the programs. Not sure who

00:52:09.829 --> 00:52:13.639
recommended it. I'd have to go back and look, but it

00:52:13.648 --> 00:52:16.090
was part of it was part of our negotiations in the

00:52:16.099 --> 00:52:18.599
program design. So you got forced into it, I got

00:52:21.010 --> 00:52:26.820
it. So that also eliminates a lot of people from participating,

00:52:27.090 --> 00:52:30.539
because you have to be a 24 hour Load to be able to

00:52:30.550 --> 00:52:34.570
participate. Is that right? It is, it could be seen

00:52:34.579 --> 00:52:34.958
as that

00:52:38.489 --> 00:52:42.938
however. All together looks like a 24 hour load basically. We

00:52:42.949 --> 00:52:45.429
try to make sure that the Load would be available,

00:52:45.438 --> 00:52:47.719
but it's not a requirement of the program that you

00:52:47.728 --> 00:52:51.530
be available 24/7. So you're right, it would exclude

00:52:51.539 --> 00:52:53.889
a lot of participants. If they had to be available,

00:52:53.898 --> 00:52:54.208
then.

00:52:55.949 --> 00:53:02.039
We're still working on, on how to make sure that there

00:53:02.050 --> 00:53:05.458
is Load available 24/7, which is why it's a pilot program.

00:53:05.469 --> 00:53:09.119
And we hope to take lessons from that requirement.

00:53:09.128 --> 00:53:12.719
This is the second year in trying to run it and um

00:53:13.469 --> 00:53:16.688
it does still need a lot of work. So, so it could

00:53:16.699 --> 00:53:20.918
be like the alternative baseline on ERCOT is. As long

00:53:20.929 --> 00:53:24.659
as you don't come on during those periods, it counts

00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:28.119
that sort of? If you're already off, I believe we would

00:53:28.128 --> 00:53:32.769
encourage you to stay off, yes. Right, right. If we were in

00:53:32.780 --> 00:53:36.329
one of those EEA Level 2. So don't go back

00:53:36.340 --> 00:53:40.260
to the office and turn on the lights. Internally, it's

00:53:40.269 --> 00:53:44.090
also been a challenge, because I don't work 24/7. So

00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:45.728
we've had to reach out to our.

00:53:47.889 --> 00:53:52.860
I like to sleep. So we've had to reach out internally,

00:53:52.869 --> 00:53:55.739
and that's another difference in the operation of the

00:53:55.750 --> 00:53:58.458
program. Is that I have had to recruit participation

00:53:58.469 --> 00:54:01.168
from our distribution. Um

00:54:03.489 --> 00:54:07.800
guys who um who are available on a shift level for

00:54:07.809 --> 00:54:12.550
24/7. To teach them how to work the notification system

00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:14.728
and make sure that we're all in communication about

00:54:14.739 --> 00:54:18.340
that. I forgot to mention that we do also communicate

00:54:18.679 --> 00:54:21.728
uh my second bullet. We have a memorandum of understanding

00:54:21.739 --> 00:54:25.840
with ERCOT. To communicate the enrollment program capacity

00:54:25.849 --> 00:54:29.679
and deployment. So there's also transparency between

00:54:29.688 --> 00:54:34.679
the ERS program and this program. And then for specifically

00:54:34.688 --> 00:54:38.489
the winter program, if our customers uh authorize us

00:54:38.500 --> 00:54:41.599
to, we will notify their retail electric provider of

00:54:41.610 --> 00:54:45.438
record. Of their participation and curtailment amount

00:54:47.260 --> 00:54:52.349
Yeah. Thanks for reminding me to elaborate. Anything

00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:52.840
else?

00:54:57.559 --> 00:54:58.168
Thank you.

00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:07.010
Well, we are almost ready for lunch and we're gonna

00:55:07.019 --> 00:55:10.369
break until 1. (item:6.2:38578, Reminder for updates to technical reference manual) But before we do, I just wanted to

00:55:10.378 --> 00:55:13.159
remind everybody that it is this time of the year. That

00:55:13.168 --> 00:55:17.989
we ask for um potential updates to technical reference manual.

00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.780
So each year, you know, we look at the technical

00:55:21.789 --> 00:55:24.478
reference manual. We look to see what could be updated

00:55:24.489 --> 00:55:30.469
changed, improved added. And we solicit those um update

00:55:30.510 --> 00:55:34.030
between now and May 1. After May 1, you know,

00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:36.929
the engineers start buckling down and looking at what

00:55:36.938 --> 00:55:39.829
they can achieve, what's feasible. And then they'll come

00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:43.079
back to us for the Fall EEIP. Where they will

00:55:43.090 --> 00:55:46.539
make a presentation of what they recommend.

00:55:48.309 --> 00:55:51.989
the TRM should be. And at that time, we will get the opportunity to take

00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.898
a look and we have a review period. After that is when

00:55:55.909 --> 00:56:00.269
the TRM (inaudible). Um but today, we're very fortunate to have

00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:06.090
Tina Yoder with us. She is Tetra Tech's TRM lead. And

00:56:06.099 --> 00:56:10.090
if you have any questions on how the updates should

00:56:10.099 --> 00:56:14.668
be provided. And what she needs to see with your ideas.

00:56:14.869 --> 00:56:17.409
You know, Tina is here all day. So please pull her

00:56:17.418 --> 00:56:20.869
aside and you know, cover her with questions.

00:56:22.469 --> 00:56:24.739
And I'll phone a friend (inaudible).

00:56:28.860 --> 00:56:32.550
So that's all I have before lunch and I will see you

00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:35.728
all at 1pm, and we'll talk about the (inaudible).

00:56:52.909 --> 00:56:56.760
(item:7:38578, Therese gives initial remarks concerning Energy Efficiency Working Group) And for each of these, Tetra Tech provided a summary of all

00:56:56.769 --> 00:57:00.039
the working groups to address the key issues. And so

00:57:00.050 --> 00:57:05.469
the next step after Mark's presentation. Will be a request

00:57:05.478 --> 00:57:10.409
from Commission Staff to please provide input. So we

00:57:10.418 --> 00:57:15.909
solicit input from the larger EEIP group. And because

00:57:15.918 --> 00:57:19.789
this is a very busy season, it's also we're also a

00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:23.320
Legislative season right now. I'm asking my comments

00:57:23.329 --> 00:57:28.809
by April 20, which may not sound like a long time,

00:57:28.989 --> 00:57:32.860
but it's actually more than we typically give for comment

00:57:33.349 --> 00:57:35.878
um in the EEIP. And so with that, I

00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:40.110
all right. Thank you.

00:57:42.489 --> 00:57:46.438
All right. So this is really fun. Um So I got to

00:57:46.449 --> 00:57:49.148
meet Eleanor in person. I got to meet Carl this morning

00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:51.898
in person. Like we've been these talking heads and

00:57:51.909 --> 00:57:54.648
to actually be living together is really, really cool

00:57:54.958 --> 00:57:57.119
Um for those of you who have worked with me for the

00:57:57.128 --> 00:57:59.929
last decade, you know how I like geek out about human

00:57:59.938 --> 00:58:04.079
and bee um I'm gonna geek out about the stakeholder working

00:58:04.090 --> 00:58:07.369
group. It has been like a highlight of my professional

00:58:07.378 --> 00:58:11.840
career. Um getting to like be on these and listen to

00:58:11.849 --> 00:58:15.510
everyone and brainstorm and I'm really excited about

00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:18.559
where we're going. Um all these great rides together.

00:58:19.250 --> 00:58:23.239
(item:8:38578, Working Group Overview) So what we hope to accomplish today is really, we are

00:58:23.250 --> 00:58:27.119
it's that report back to EEIP we've been working

00:58:27.128 --> 00:58:29.378
in these individual four different working groups,

00:58:29.389 --> 00:58:32.539
right? So this is a chance for us to talk about it

00:58:32.550 --> 00:58:35.800
all together, but also we all know awesome traffic

00:58:35.809 --> 00:58:39.789
We're trying to let everyone out at four. Um So we

00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:42.898
have about a half an hour for our overarching themes

00:58:42.909 --> 00:58:46.050
and best practices and a half an hour for each working

00:58:46.059 --> 00:58:49.978
group. So it's not a lot of time, but the point is

00:58:49.989 --> 00:58:53.989
that we're hoping everyone feels empowered, you know

00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:56.590
and educated enough about the process and where the

00:58:56.599 --> 00:58:59.208
information is that they can submit comments on the

00:58:59.219 --> 00:59:03.119
full memo. So the full memo as we said was filed yesterday

00:59:03.128 --> 00:59:06.550
it is over 50 pages because it includes all those summary

00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:10.139
tables as well as over arching. So hopefully we have

00:59:10.148 --> 00:59:12.898
everyone feeling good about, ok. Now I know where to

00:59:12.909 --> 00:59:16.309
go look for. Um I run a new term. People are gonna

00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:17.579
laugh at me, they already knew it but

00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:23.289
term but it is um so to go look at that Uber

00:59:23.300 --> 00:59:27.519
summary and submit comment. So um with that, go on

00:59:27.530 --> 00:59:30.000
to the first thing which I think there really already

00:59:30.010 --> 00:59:33.760
covered for us is just this has been a process and

00:59:33.769 --> 00:59:36.659
as Commissioner Jackson said this morning, thank you

00:59:36.668 --> 00:59:40.750
so much for all the work today and kind of we're just

00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:45.260
getting started. So, um, you know, again, we've been

00:59:45.269 --> 00:59:49.728
working on this since October launching an EEIP really

00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:52.570
good results for anyone who didn't see the stakeholder

00:59:52.579 --> 00:59:56.360
survey results that were used to form these working

00:59:56.369 --> 00:59:59.719
groups. They are also filed in the EEI project. They

00:59:59.728 --> 01:00:03.389
were filed in December, some really good analysis there.

01:00:04.708 --> 01:00:08.300
I'm really pleased that the representation, we've got

01:00:08.309 --> 01:00:12.179
our stakeholder groups. So, you know, everything from

01:00:12.188 --> 01:00:18.449
you know, cities and reps to trade allies. Um It's

01:00:18.458 --> 01:00:21.360
just been great. We really have everyone implementation

01:00:21.369 --> 01:00:24.179
contractors and of course, you know, the utilities

01:00:24.188 --> 01:00:26.978
as well on these calls. So that's been really, really

01:00:26.989 --> 01:00:32.280
great too that we've had diverse voices in these. So

01:00:32.289 --> 01:00:36.219
moving on to the next slide, uh these were the objectives

01:00:36.228 --> 01:00:38.188
for those of you who are on a working group. You've

01:00:38.199 --> 01:00:40.938
seen these, we thought it was worth going over these

01:00:40.949 --> 01:00:44.320
again. Is that really what the working groups were

01:00:44.329 --> 01:00:48.949
to do was to identify the key issues, what are the

01:00:48.958 --> 01:00:52.668
top issues we want to address to make these programs

01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:58.869
better and then um discuss them. We didn't necessarily

01:00:58.878 --> 01:01:01.019
have to reach consensus. What we'll find out is there

01:01:01.030 --> 01:01:04.769
are actually quite a few areas of agreement. Um But

01:01:04.780 --> 01:01:07.199
there are also a lot of things to still discuss and

01:01:07.208 --> 01:01:11.269
hash out. So we have those. So we really work on capturing

01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:14.019
all the different perspectives. When you go to that

01:01:14.030 --> 01:01:16.708
Uber summary I referred to and all the high,

01:01:18.429 --> 01:01:21.610
you're good. We have like a tight agenda so we have

01:01:21.619 --> 01:01:25.668
to get going. Um So when you go to that Uber summary

01:01:26.309 --> 01:01:29.769
um with all the summary tables, you, you'll see we

01:01:29.780 --> 01:01:32.949
have different perspectives listed and we will discuss

01:01:32.958 --> 01:01:37.329
today. Here are some of the areas we had a range of

01:01:37.340 --> 01:01:39.789
perspectives. There's still some discussion to do,

01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:44.969
right? Um To kind of reach agreement. And um, well

01:01:44.978 --> 01:01:47.099
I guess I shouldn't say reach agreement to give different

01:01:47.110 --> 01:01:50.728
perspectives to the commission who will make that decision

01:01:51.449 --> 01:01:54.280
All right. And then the next, so what were our outcomes

01:01:54.289 --> 01:01:55.739
from these working groups?

01:01:57.329 --> 01:02:00.760
Um I know what we were gonna, is it not advancing for

01:02:00.769 --> 01:02:03.760
you? Oh, oh, yeah, it's ok. I was like, I know I

01:02:03.769 --> 01:02:07.099
didn't it hard enough. I'm like, well, we made it,

01:02:07.110 --> 01:02:10.610
we made it, we made it to the EEIP. And

01:02:10.619 --> 01:02:13.168
um uh it was a lot of work to get to where

01:02:13.179 --> 01:02:15.099
we are and we have a lot of work to present and

01:02:15.110 --> 01:02:17.780
discuss today. So again, thank you to every single

01:02:17.789 --> 01:02:20.500
person in this room who has been part of this effort

01:02:20.699 --> 01:02:23.648
So we are, um you know, gonna talk about those areas

01:02:23.659 --> 01:02:27.898
of agreement areas of debate. And then as s said, there

01:02:27.909 --> 01:02:30.769
are things that look like they can uh could be addressed

01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:34.378
in a rule making. So we'll talk about those. Um, there

01:02:34.389 --> 01:02:38.329
are also a lot of process improvements identified that

01:02:38.340 --> 01:02:42.679
don't necessarily need a rule making change, some other

01:02:42.688 --> 01:02:46.128
sort of change to make sure it happens. Um, is perhaps

01:02:46.139 --> 01:02:49.510
something to discuss like a performance metric or more

01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:52.208
transparent reporting. Several ideas have been brainstormed

01:02:52.219 --> 01:02:55.030
on that. So another thing to think about and there

01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:57.628
are some things in statute. So there also are, are

01:02:57.639 --> 01:03:00.610
some things recognizing would actually require a achieve

01:03:00.708 --> 01:03:04.228
statute. So couldn't be directly addressed with the

01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:07.070
rule. So we do have those identified in the summary

01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:12.668
tables. All right. So for those of you who sat in the

01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:15.949
working group, we went back to this slide from workshop

01:03:15.958 --> 01:03:20.449
one where uh we had this slide with customer in the

01:03:20.458 --> 01:03:23.389
middle because we wanted to frame the working group

01:03:23.398 --> 01:03:27.708
as reminding all of us we have different opinions of

01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:31.010
how energy efficiency should be improved. But all of

01:03:31.019 --> 01:03:34.559
us are about the customer. And so keeping that customer

01:03:34.570 --> 01:03:37.820
top of mind as we have these discussions. So you'll

01:03:37.829 --> 01:03:41.570
see we actually are using these as our transition slides

01:03:41.579 --> 01:03:46.159
to each of the working groups. (item:8.1:38578, Best Practices and Overarching Themes) So this first batch

01:03:46.168 --> 01:03:49.800
that I'll go through um and discuss with you guys are

01:03:49.809 --> 01:03:54.389
the best practices and overarching themes. So, a little

01:03:54.699 --> 01:03:59.938
history on these best practices, um we weren't originally

01:03:59.949 --> 01:04:03.530
going to come up with best practices across all the

01:04:03.539 --> 01:04:05.599
working groups. We were just gonna really look for

01:04:05.610 --> 01:04:09.539
overarching themes, but in the Demand Response working

01:04:09.550 --> 01:04:14.128
group, um one of the sessions was best practices for

01:04:14.139 --> 01:04:16.639
demand response. So we spent a whole session working

01:04:16.648 --> 01:04:19.909
on those best practices. Well, then when we start working

01:04:19.918 --> 01:04:23.039
on the overarching themes, we're like, wow, these are

01:04:23.050 --> 01:04:25.610
like going back to a lot of these best practices that

01:04:25.619 --> 01:04:29.329
were identified. So we took those best practices from

01:04:29.340 --> 01:04:32.889
the Demand Response working group and ran them through

01:04:32.898 --> 01:04:36.389
the other working groups and we word smithed, we fine

01:04:36.398 --> 01:04:40.668
tune them, we expanded them out. Um And so I'm actually

01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:44.139
really excited about this because uh you know, people

01:04:44.148 --> 01:04:46.329
have heard this analogy. I originally got it from Gary

01:04:46.340 --> 01:04:50.228
back, you know, a year ago a North Star. So we

01:04:50.239 --> 01:04:52.958
actually came up with kind of a North Star for the

01:04:52.969 --> 01:04:56.159
programs. Uh here's a place we would like to go with

01:04:56.168 --> 01:04:59.969
energy efficiency and these best practices. And then

01:04:59.978 --> 01:05:02.019
in the next slide, we'll talk about the overarching

01:05:02.030 --> 01:05:04.139
themes of, ok, well, here's our North Star, how do

01:05:04.148 --> 01:05:07.139
we get there? So, you know, kind of start talking about

01:05:07.148 --> 01:05:09.648
how we can build the rocket ship. But, you know, that's

01:05:09.659 --> 01:05:12.699
more a frame when a lot of the, like how that propel

01:05:12.708 --> 01:05:15.610
propulsion is gonna work, that's get worked out and

01:05:15.619 --> 01:05:19.030
we're taking or further discussion. So, um I like,

01:05:19.039 --> 01:05:23.769
ay. So, um so this is gonna be I'm really just gonna

01:05:23.780 --> 01:05:26.739
read these out and have thoughts because these are

01:05:26.750 --> 01:05:29.309
things again, that have been run through all four of

01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:33.918
the working groups. Um So the first one is focus on

01:05:33.929 --> 01:05:37.938
the customer by providing tangible value. And this

01:05:37.949 --> 01:05:41.148
was a recommendation made is let's not just say tangible

01:05:41.159 --> 01:05:44.079
value, but what do we mean by that tangible value?

01:05:44.090 --> 01:05:48.148
So specifically listing it out energy savings, demand

01:05:48.159 --> 01:05:51.760
reductions, increased affordability and resiliency.

01:05:52.750 --> 01:05:55.228
And this is actually about the customer when we see

01:05:55.239 --> 01:05:57.760
resiliency, we we do talk about that a lot with the

01:05:57.769 --> 01:06:00.228
grid, but this is about actually the customer. So if

01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:02.789
the power does go out is that home weather rise, so

01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:07.898
they can withstand that longer um with multiple options

01:06:07.909 --> 01:06:12.418
to participate for a big approach to meet the customer

01:06:12.429 --> 01:06:16.668
where they are. So multiple options, customers have

01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:20.668
different amount that they think about their energy

01:06:20.679 --> 01:06:24.119
use, think about energy efficiency, willingness to

01:06:24.128 --> 01:06:26.840
participate. So this is really about different options

01:06:26.849 --> 01:06:30.250
If it's just that customer, you can get the smart thermostat

01:06:30.260 --> 01:06:34.110
in the home to, you know, a commercial customer who's

01:06:34.119 --> 01:06:37.309
ready to sit down and put together a multiyear strategic

01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:40.820
energy management plan and everywhere in between. So

01:06:41.090 --> 01:06:45.099
you know, really multiple tasks. So this is again one

01:06:45.110 --> 01:06:48.469
that really got fine tuned and attitude in the working

01:06:48.478 --> 01:06:51.329
groups. Thoughts, what do you think, sir? What do you

01:06:51.340 --> 01:06:53.128
think about that first one?

01:07:01.809 --> 01:07:03.280
Yeah, no, we're definitely supportive. That's one of

01:07:03.289 --> 01:07:05.668
the things the Spear is focused on is how we can really

01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:07.708
be customer focused and understanding that the, the

01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:10.250
energy burden that not just low income but moderate

01:07:10.260 --> 01:07:12.539
income and all, all types of consumers have to have

01:07:12.550 --> 01:07:15.648
to deal with. And kind of looking back at what we talked

01:07:15.659 --> 01:07:18.659
about a lot today is that pass the survivability aspect

01:07:18.668 --> 01:07:21.478
of energy efficiency and s we can really make a difference

01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:26.699
You any other thoughts on that 1st 1?

01:07:29.610 --> 01:07:33.260
All right. Um The second one, this is actually one

01:07:33.269 --> 01:07:35.849
that the demand response came up with that. We didn't

01:07:35.860 --> 01:07:38.260
end up word smithing across the rest of the working

01:07:38.269 --> 01:07:42.039
group everyone. But yeah, that's about right. So one

01:07:42.050 --> 01:07:45.599
feasible, that's key, right? One feasible, integrate

01:07:45.610 --> 01:07:48.860
energy efficiency in demand response. So, you know

01:07:48.869 --> 01:07:50.958
there was a thought, you know, isn't it great if you

01:07:50.969 --> 01:07:54.849
are going to control the home during, you know, a weather

01:07:54.860 --> 01:07:57.610
event, it's weather rise already so that, you know

01:07:57.619 --> 01:07:59.889
while you're controlling it, you're really seeing those

01:07:59.898 --> 01:08:04.219
savings and hopefully keeps a level of comfort. Um

01:08:04.228 --> 01:08:07.909
Another one we talked about was, you know, just that's

01:08:07.918 --> 01:08:10.769
a residential example. Going to a commercial example

01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:14.289
is um you know, using the building systems, right,

01:08:14.300 --> 01:08:17.699
when you're going in and could you, you know, use the

01:08:17.708 --> 01:08:20.619
building automated system to, you know, do the controls

01:08:20.628 --> 01:08:24.628
for energy efficiency and respond to a demand response

01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:28.020
event. So that the fact that there are a lot of opportunities

01:08:28.489 --> 01:08:31.458
to integrate those together, that's to the benefit

01:08:31.470 --> 01:08:35.279
to both the customer and the brand. Thoughts on, on

01:08:35.289 --> 01:08:35.958
that one.

01:08:39.930 --> 01:08:40.720
No vote.

01:08:44.609 --> 01:08:47.500
No, I was gonna take that one. Now, the thing I like

01:08:47.509 --> 01:08:50.458
about that one is that demand response becomes so much

01:08:50.470 --> 01:08:53.430
more valuable. It's durable. And one of the problems

01:08:53.439 --> 01:08:55.989
we have, you're talking about the sulate, weatherization

01:08:56.628 --> 01:08:59.128
you know, refrigerator is a durable, Load because it'll

01:08:59.140 --> 01:09:02.239
go 34 or five hours and air conditioner won't without

01:09:02.250 --> 01:09:05.479
having very angry customers. So I think that that really

01:09:05.489 --> 01:09:09.029
does give legs to the value of the DR. So that, that's

01:09:09.039 --> 01:09:12.389
a great point. Yeah, that was some, some people talked

01:09:12.398 --> 01:09:14.868
about some really good studies that were, you know

01:09:14.877 --> 01:09:18.078
provided to kind of support how when feasible and it

01:09:18.087 --> 01:09:21.318
again was recognizing uh this time another, another

01:09:21.328 --> 01:09:22.788
version I used so I can see a video.

01:09:24.599 --> 01:09:31.359
Ok. All right. Um So the third one was compliment other

01:09:31.369 --> 01:09:35.199
offerings. So here we have ERCOT programs. We take

01:09:35.208 --> 01:09:39.029
it from ERCOT ERS just because what if ERCOT changes the

01:09:39.039 --> 01:09:42.560
name of its program, right? So we just wanted to um

01:09:42.569 --> 01:09:46.119
get that and coordinates with other market actors.

01:09:46.128 --> 01:09:50.378
Um So examples are retail electric providers in the

01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:53.378
ERCOT market and service providers

01:09:55.270 --> 01:09:59.668
and data sources. So this was a really cool one added

01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:02.579
by the low income and under sort of segment group.

01:10:02.588 --> 01:10:05.720
I think we have El Paso to thank for that. Is, you

01:10:05.729 --> 01:10:09.918
know, there are also data sources out there that aren't

01:10:09.930 --> 01:10:13.259
we aren't kind of some barriers to using right now

01:10:13.270 --> 01:10:16.918
that can really help serving people. So the the Texas

01:10:16.930 --> 01:10:18.935
Department of Housing and Community Affairs

01:10:18.944 --> 01:10:21.333
that's not a list that the utilities currently have

01:10:21.345 --> 01:10:25.555
access to for their low income and hard to reach programs.

01:10:25.664 --> 01:10:28.595
Wouldn't it be great since that exists that they did

01:10:28.604 --> 01:10:32.003
So they could also have another tool to help outreach

01:10:32.015 --> 01:10:34.494
to those people. So other data sources like that, you

01:10:34.503 --> 01:10:36.494
know, it's also hard to know what's already available

01:10:36.503 --> 01:10:40.564
in smart new Texas for example. So this is one where

01:10:40.574 --> 01:10:45.909
we did kind of add quite, quite a bit um complementing

01:10:45.918 --> 01:10:49.199
coordinating thoughts on that one.

01:10:52.229 --> 01:10:53.989
So can you clarify the

01:10:56.829 --> 01:10:59.949
um so it's our understanding that there's a list of

01:10:59.958 --> 01:11:03.329
low, you know, homes that um households that qualify

01:11:03.338 --> 01:11:07.338
for low income services so that they could automatically

01:11:07.350 --> 01:11:12.250
be funneled into the energy efficiency programs that

01:11:12.259 --> 01:11:17.100
are given with higher incentives or free. Um So that

01:11:17.418 --> 01:11:21.560
it could be part of routine, not having to qualify

01:11:21.569 --> 01:11:23.930
them through other ways you can get the tax.

01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:31.378
Okay? I can send you, okay. Say it again what we can

01:11:31.390 --> 01:11:33.859
get. In other words, if uh if there's a property that's

01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:36.409
a tax credit property that is going to be 

01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:39.529
Okay. They put out

01:11:41.199 --> 01:11:46.060
a okay. I, yeah, because I, I wasn't aware of

01:11:46.069 --> 01:11:47.668
that. I mean, one of the utilities are shaking their

01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:50.789
head. I heard a lot in the peace uh

01:11:50.798 --> 01:11:53.560
presentation this morning. So I disconnecting with

01:11:53.569 --> 01:11:57.418
that. So that would be wonderful and yeah, that would

01:11:57.430 --> 01:12:00.310
be great. Thank you. And that's exactly the thought

01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:03.048
is we know there's data out there that can be used

01:12:03.060 --> 01:12:05.189
So how do we identify, how do we tap into it so

01:12:05.208 --> 01:12:06.918
that thank you.

01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:12.418
Oh, great. Anything else on this 1?

01:12:15.048 --> 01:12:19.890
All right. Um This is another one. We did some word

01:12:19.899 --> 01:12:25.199
smithing up across all the working groups. And proves grid 

01:12:25.208 --> 01:12:30.378
resiliency and reliability. And specifically, we talked about

01:12:30.390 --> 01:12:36.069
GEO targeting, um integrating as DERs increase. You

01:12:36.079 --> 01:12:38.500
know, that's, you know, Bob's gotta have something

01:12:38.509 --> 01:12:42.609
to say on that one and the seasonal needs. Right. We've

01:12:42.619 --> 01:12:45.279
talked a lot this morning about the fact that there

01:12:45.289 --> 01:12:48.458
are winter programs now and, you know, the fact that

01:12:48.470 --> 01:12:50.878
there are seasonal needs, summer, winter and shorter

01:12:50.890 --> 01:12:55.298
seasons. Um And then the outcome of that is reducing

01:12:55.310 --> 01:12:57.699
risks, thoughts on that.

01:13:02.979 --> 01:13:03.750
All right.

01:13:05.798 --> 01:13:10.079
This next one is uh another one that again, uh didn't

01:13:10.088 --> 01:13:14.588
have a lot of wordsmithing, um, taps into potential

01:13:14.600 --> 01:13:19.600
across all eligible customer segments. Um For those

01:13:19.609 --> 01:13:23.338
who were here this morning, um and saw the research

01:13:23.430 --> 01:13:25.759
you know, CenterPoint was doing. That's so great.

01:13:25.770 --> 01:13:29.109
It's great to say caps to all eligible segments. But

01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:31.770
how do you actually do that? Right. And we'll talk

01:13:31.779 --> 01:13:35.890
about that. Uh What Tina presents the low income and

01:13:35.899 --> 01:13:39.000
under served segments. I'll talk about that hard to

01:13:39.009 --> 01:13:42.390
reach is a lot more than low income. Um um there's

01:13:42.399 --> 01:13:45.579
all sorts of other barriers, Mark and I Mark DeAngelo

01:13:45.628 --> 01:13:48.819
and I were chatting informally and he was

01:13:48.829 --> 01:13:51.520
you know, talking about some of those areas right north

01:13:51.529 --> 01:13:54.560
of Beaumont where it's so hard to get people. Um So

01:13:54.569 --> 01:13:58.750
there's all sorts of barriers and ways that really

01:13:58.759 --> 01:14:01.588
to get all those eligible customer segments so that

01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:03.289
we do really need to think about that,

01:14:05.289 --> 01:14:06.119
Thoughts on that one?

01:14:08.850 --> 01:14:09.539
All right.

01:14:11.180 --> 01:14:17.680
Um This one was another one that really striking the

01:14:17.689 --> 01:14:23.128
balance. Um, employees consistency with flexibility

01:14:23.489 --> 01:14:28.189
to adapt to different markets and local system needs

01:14:28.220 --> 01:14:32.180
So there was a lot of discussion of, if there was more

01:14:32.189 --> 01:14:37.149
consistency across the utility territories, it would

01:14:37.159 --> 01:14:42.628
be easier for some service providers or for the REPs

01:14:42.640 --> 01:14:48.489
to scale up and participate across. Um But at the same

01:14:48.500 --> 01:14:53.859
time, it has to be recognized that each utility territory

01:14:53.869 --> 01:14:56.708
is so different, their customers are so different.

01:14:56.930 --> 01:14:59.890
You know, again from the presentation this morning

01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:02.668
you know, Tim had talked about how CenterPoint has

01:15:02.680 --> 01:15:06.298
a very convinced territory we know Oncor and TNMP

01:15:06.310 --> 01:15:11.060
and AEP are all over the place. And so just

01:15:11.069 --> 01:15:14.060
really, really different. Um, you know, I know talking

01:15:14.069 --> 01:15:18.378
with Scel different things they have to do to adapt

01:15:18.390 --> 01:15:20.949
to their customers and their weather zone. Those are

01:15:20.958 --> 01:15:23.689
really different too. Um Like it'll pass that it really

01:15:23.699 --> 01:15:26.798
has a challenging weather zone. So, um sometimes you

01:15:26.810 --> 01:15:30.479
get those savings. So while everyone agreed that there

01:15:30.489 --> 01:15:35.119
was benefits of consistency. It really was reiterated

01:15:35.128 --> 01:15:38.600
that flexibility is also needed. So that's why we have

01:15:38.609 --> 01:15:39.750
that balance there.

01:15:42.789 --> 01:15:46.750
All right, I'm about to start calling on people.

01:15:48.899 --> 01:15:52.060
I know, I know because we've been all over these together

01:15:52.069 --> 01:15:54.649
But again, for those of you where these are new, please

01:15:54.659 --> 01:15:57.729
ask us questions. Uh These are things that the working

01:15:57.739 --> 01:16:01.628
groups have all seen and worked on together. So um

01:16:02.189 --> 01:16:04.500
here's another one when we talk about again, this is

01:16:04.509 --> 01:16:07.619
these are our North stars. So how do we operationalize

01:16:07.628 --> 01:16:10.958
a lot of these things? This is one you'll see that

01:16:10.970 --> 01:16:13.390
will come up on the slides I present and the slides

01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:17.350
that Tina presents on the value. What is really the

01:16:17.359 --> 01:16:20.659
real value of demand response and energy efficiency

01:16:20.939 --> 01:16:23.520
People really don't think we have that accurately captured

01:16:23.529 --> 01:16:26.539
in the way we do it now. So our best practice is

01:16:26.548 --> 01:16:29.489
to accurately reflect the value of demand response

01:16:29.500 --> 01:16:32.640
and energy efficiency to the grid. And how do we do

01:16:32.649 --> 01:16:35.628
that? You know, lots, we do lots of discussion room

01:16:37.359 --> 01:16:42.159
So those are the best practices. Anything missing from

01:16:42.168 --> 01:16:44.600
that with anyone? Let me get all the way.

01:16:49.168 --> 01:16:54.159
Yeah, it's not. The projector is yes low. I see that

01:16:54.418 --> 01:16:58.939
Um looking at those, does that feel like it hit on

01:16:58.949 --> 01:17:03.259
all the important things to people? Utility? Will someone

01:17:03.270 --> 01:17:05.500
from the utilities? Tell me, do you see anything from

01:17:05.509 --> 01:17:09.149
your perspective? Um You did say you didn't get picked

01:17:09.159 --> 01:17:12.180
on for IRA this morning. So, anything from this list

01:17:12.189 --> 01:17:16.159
from the utility perspective missing from best practices

01:17:16.970 --> 01:17:18.979
I, I don't, I don't think so. I mean, you know, I

01:17:18.989 --> 01:17:23.119
think it looks, looks good and, um, I don't wanna speak

01:17:23.128 --> 01:17:25.838
for everyone on the national. I like shake from your

01:17:26.250 --> 01:17:29.869
personal, I guess to kind of talk around if, if you're

01:17:29.878 --> 01:17:33.338
kind of looking from the IRA and that perspective.

01:17:33.350 --> 01:17:33.699
Um

01:17:35.390 --> 01:17:39.659
No, I think just um that's to me kind of goes to

01:17:39.668 --> 01:17:42.359
like since, since you brought that up, you know, just

01:17:42.369 --> 01:17:47.489
tapping potential across all eligible customer segments

01:17:47.500 --> 01:17:50.329
and then complimenting different offerings. So I think

01:17:50.338 --> 01:17:53.250
right now, at least for a CenterPoint, probably for

01:17:53.259 --> 01:17:57.359
a lot of to use how to leverage maybe the opportunities

01:17:57.369 --> 01:18:00.449
with the federal funding available for efficiency,

01:18:00.458 --> 01:18:03.298
approves both retrofits new homes, the tax credits

01:18:03.310 --> 01:18:06.079
Um I think it complements our program as well at any

01:18:06.088 --> 01:18:08.699
time that, you know, I look at that opportunity as

01:18:08.708 --> 01:18:13.039
like being able to educate our program sponsored participants

01:18:13.048 --> 01:18:15.680
the agencies we work with on benefits to customers

01:18:15.689 --> 01:18:18.850
I think there is still a lot of waiting around kind

01:18:18.859 --> 01:18:23.729
of how that uh works with state agencies involved.

01:18:23.739 --> 01:18:27.489
But um to me that's kind of captured the cap capture

01:18:27.500 --> 01:18:31.338
here, um particularly in that third point. Yeah, it

01:18:31.350 --> 01:18:35.810
does make me wonder though if we should add, we have

01:18:36.109 --> 01:18:38.479
ERCOT in there. And I guess this would be a thought

01:18:38.489 --> 01:18:42.369
if anyone wants to add a comment or if people think

01:18:42.378 --> 01:18:45.930
that's a great um other offerings is, is much more

01:18:45.939 --> 01:18:49.543
than that, right? So just what that would be tax incentives

01:18:49.555 --> 01:18:51.805
it could be pace financing that we talked about this

01:18:51.814 --> 01:18:55.154
morning. So maybe just having a few more examples in

01:18:55.164 --> 01:18:58.414
here could be helpful to make that more comprehensive

01:18:58.423 --> 01:19:01.173
I think that was a good point. You made say that it's

01:19:01.185 --> 01:19:04.494
captured in there, but sometimes, you know, we can

01:19:04.503 --> 01:19:06.364
be a little more specific. So

01:19:07.909 --> 01:19:09.869
sounds like that might be a place to add a couple more

01:19:09.878 --> 01:19:10.659
examples.

01:19:13.579 --> 01:19:14.489
All right.

01:19:16.208 --> 01:19:18.970
How about from clear results perspective as an implementation

01:19:18.979 --> 01:19:22.039
contractor, do you see any best practices missing from

01:19:22.048 --> 01:19:24.569
there? It's hard to say that there's any missing. I

01:19:24.579 --> 01:19:29.189
I, I think what stands out to me is um and just

01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:34.949
the attempt at comprehensiveness right? Being um inclusive

01:19:34.958 --> 01:19:41.579
of uh customer type, uh geography and uh sort of considerations

01:19:41.588 --> 01:19:43.529
for customers and measure availability and that sort

01:19:43.539 --> 01:19:46.918
of thing. So I think it's, yeah, as a, as a

01:19:46.930 --> 01:19:49.729
a North Star, I think it's a good starting point, star

01:19:50.279 --> 01:19:50.979
and stop there.

01:19:52.810 --> 01:19:54.890
You couldn't fit into one of those buckets for it.

01:19:58.310 --> 01:20:02.930
All right. Uh I'm gonna focus on just one word, uh

01:20:02.949 --> 01:20:06.548
affordability and only because at the end of the day

01:20:06.560 --> 01:20:09.250
consumers pay the cost of all the programs. And I,

01:20:09.259 --> 01:20:12.770
I like that the goal really, I read into all of this

01:20:12.779 --> 01:20:15.470
is for providing these services more efficiently and

01:20:15.479 --> 01:20:19.569
more effectively and, and so the most cost effective

01:20:19.579 --> 01:20:23.958
way possible. Um, so I just, I just want to keep that

01:20:23.970 --> 01:20:26.979
in mind at the end of the day, there's a cost to

01:20:26.989 --> 01:20:30.829
everything that we do. Um, consumers end up paying

01:20:30.838 --> 01:20:32.708
paying that cost. So as long as they're getting their

01:20:32.720 --> 01:20:35.509
money's worth, yeah. Um, that's, that's really good

01:20:35.739 --> 01:20:40.989
for you. So, on that idea, by using the word affordability

01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:43.699
to me, that wouldn't, they would have to pass cost

01:20:43.708 --> 01:20:46.430
effectiveness, right? Because you don't have improved

01:20:46.439 --> 01:20:49.609
you're paying more for energy efficiency than the benefits

01:20:49.619 --> 01:20:52.699
you're getting from it you wouldn't have, right? I

01:20:52.708 --> 01:20:56.119
mean, that's one of one of the issues that we reported

01:20:56.180 --> 01:20:59.229
us is pro the programs need to be cost effective. And

01:20:59.239 --> 01:21:01.759
I know we talk about how to measure cost effectiveness

01:21:01.770 --> 01:21:03.699
but at the end of the day, if it costs more to

01:21:03.708 --> 01:21:08.039
provide uh energy efficiency program, then then the

01:21:08.048 --> 01:21:10.229
value that the customer receives or even the larger

01:21:10.239 --> 01:21:13.789
grid receives, it doesn't really make sense that

01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:19.039
so cost effectiveness is required by the Legislation.

01:21:19.958 --> 01:21:24.060
So it is, but, but there are different ways to, to

01:21:24.069 --> 01:21:29.310
define that, that cal Yeah. Well, I just wanted to

01:21:29.319 --> 01:21:31.779
jump in on that us Green Building Council, Kenan

01:21:33.649 --> 01:21:38.909
Um I think the cost effectiveness and affordability

01:21:38.918 --> 01:21:41.418
are kind of connected together, but it's also the market

01:21:41.430 --> 01:21:44.579
segment part. Um You know, we have a lot of different

01:21:44.588 --> 01:21:46.789
programs for each level income and so forth. But to

01:21:46.798 --> 01:21:49.680
me, the, you know, we're, we're way behind in energy

01:21:49.689 --> 01:21:52.390
efficiency overall. Uh compared to other states, I

01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:55.479
think a large part of that is, is that the ability

01:21:55.489 --> 01:21:59.000
to get access to, you know, whatever it is that you

01:21:59.009 --> 01:22:02.729
need in a way that is portable, especially in our current

01:22:02.739 --> 01:22:05.359
market with, with high interest rates. And so programs

01:22:05.369 --> 01:22:08.770
like focusing, you know, we're focusing legislatively

01:22:08.779 --> 01:22:12.159
on creating programs that would allow people to do

01:22:12.168 --> 01:22:15.909
like low interest or zero interest uh revolving loan

01:22:15.918 --> 01:22:18.958
pro programs that goes back in and this is work with

01:22:18.970 --> 01:22:22.229
water and other places and those kind of programs,

01:22:22.239 --> 01:22:25.520
especially if there's good coordination and communication

01:22:25.680 --> 01:22:29.579
continuing to happen across all the different um uh

01:22:29.588 --> 01:22:34.609
providers. Um you know, at, I think there's a good

01:22:34.619 --> 01:22:39.100
chance a good opportunity to kind of hit that market

01:22:39.329 --> 01:22:44.289
if we can come up with a Legislative approach that

01:22:44.298 --> 01:22:48.270
will make us think more into the future. Where is we're

01:22:48.279 --> 01:22:52.000
a fast growing state? There's a lot of opportunity

01:22:52.009 --> 01:22:55.359
if we can hit that market segment correctly, but we're

01:22:55.369 --> 01:22:57.810
kind of all approaching it from different angles. And

01:22:57.819 --> 01:23:01.850
then like what I promote Legislatively might be a pretty

01:23:01.859 --> 01:23:04.838
good idea, but it might not be best, the best idea

01:23:04.850 --> 01:23:08.289
if we had more communication. And so I'm encouraged

01:23:08.298 --> 01:23:11.609
by this, but I think it has to be forward thinking

01:23:11.619 --> 01:23:14.039
and moving forward. Hopefully, we will get the energy

01:23:14.048 --> 01:23:17.298
Efficiency Council that's up for Legislation. I think

01:23:17.310 --> 01:23:20.789
that will facilitate this. I think it's on the PUC

01:23:20.798 --> 01:23:26.579
even within its current programs that it's doing to

01:23:26.588 --> 01:23:29.180
further these discussions, keep the best practices

01:23:29.189 --> 01:23:32.338
moving forward and the best ideas so that we can all

01:23:32.350 --> 01:23:35.970
think about and, and propose those things Legislatively

01:23:35.979 --> 01:23:39.100
enough that we're on the same page on what ideas work

01:23:39.350 --> 01:23:39.509
out.

01:23:41.409 --> 01:23:41.699
Thank you.

01:23:45.239 --> 01:23:48.909
All right. I'm gonna move on to over our two themes

01:23:48.918 --> 01:23:52.168
just because we do wanna have plenty of time for all

01:23:52.180 --> 01:23:55.569
of our working groups. So again, this is, you know

01:23:55.798 --> 01:23:59.609
Okay, what's gonna be needed? Really? Actually, I didn't

01:23:59.619 --> 01:24:00.909
pay you for that safeway.

01:24:03.109 --> 01:24:06.739
Um You know, how do we get there? So just to that

01:24:06.750 --> 01:24:11.699
point is that we do need, you know, there can be changes

01:24:11.708 --> 01:24:16.619
to both the statute and regulatory framework, but also

01:24:16.628 --> 01:24:19.779
that's all there. There's also that increased transparency

01:24:19.789 --> 01:24:23.048
and coordination, um that's needed to improve energy

01:24:23.060 --> 01:24:26.649
efficiency. So it's kind of absolutely everything you

01:24:26.659 --> 01:24:30.060
said, that's basically what we came away with is, uh

01:24:30.220 --> 01:24:32.979
(item:8.1:38578, Overarching Themes) You know, yes, we have identified a lot of changes

01:24:32.989 --> 01:24:36.259
but we've also identified a lot of process improvements.

01:24:36.270 --> 01:24:38.939
I mean, just the fact that we learned about the, uh

01:24:38.949 --> 01:24:42.378
you know, a way to get that list this day was great.

01:24:42.390 --> 01:24:44.418
You know, that's a great example of connecting those

01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:50.899
odds. Yeah. So, um another thing also just that really

01:24:50.909 --> 01:24:55.298
needs to be kept in mind is so there's a lot of

01:24:55.310 --> 01:25:00.628
discussion around goals. That's great. These programs

01:25:00.640 --> 01:25:04.128
will operate in a silo. So we just have to keep all

01:25:04.140 --> 01:25:08.569
of that um in mind that um you know, what are feasible

01:25:08.579 --> 01:25:11.970
goals that make sense, kind of to Carl's point, Samantha's

01:25:11.979 --> 01:25:15.708
point of. You know, we really want programs that benefit

01:25:15.949 --> 01:25:18.970
uh the customer. Um you know, from a cost effective

01:25:18.979 --> 01:25:21.958
standpoint, there's lots of things that affect that

01:25:22.000 --> 01:25:25.199
some of that can be addressed in the regulatory framework

01:25:25.569 --> 01:25:28.088
but there's a lot of stuff that can't. So we heard

01:25:28.100 --> 01:25:30.579
again this morning from the utilities, they talked

01:25:30.588 --> 01:25:34.479
about, you know, inflationary pressure that made things

01:25:34.489 --> 01:25:37.930
hard. They talked about supply chain constraints. You

01:25:37.979 --> 01:25:40.449
know, we know when you talk to people, some people

01:25:40.458 --> 01:25:45.009
are really worried when the IRA programs roll out that

01:25:45.020 --> 01:25:47.003
there's, it's not gonna be enough staff to go out and

01:25:47.015 --> 01:25:50.284
motorize homes right between all the programs. So there

01:25:50.293 --> 01:25:54.154
is more going on that affects things than just the

01:25:54.164 --> 01:25:58.185
regulatory framework. So yes, we need to focus on these

01:25:58.194 --> 01:26:02.095
things that we can do. Um But also keep in mind the

01:26:02.104 --> 01:26:06.375
overall market that they work with them. So we have

01:26:06.384 --> 01:26:11.250
these listed out in this overarching um theme of a

01:26:11.259 --> 01:26:14.180
lot of the things in the rule that need to be discussed

01:26:14.539 --> 01:26:17.208
I'm not gonna spend time on it here because we're gonna

01:26:17.220 --> 01:26:20.569
get to them when we talk about in our individual working

01:26:20.579 --> 01:26:22.958
groups, our areas of agreement, things that still need

01:26:22.970 --> 01:26:25.890
to be discussed. We'll talk about customer cost cap

01:26:25.899 --> 01:26:28.829
cost effectiveness and all of these things. So this

01:26:28.838 --> 01:26:31.220
is just kind of a bucket list of all the things that

01:26:31.819 --> 01:26:37.048
need to be talked about in, in the regulatory. Um And

01:26:37.060 --> 01:26:42.529
this gets back again to that best practice of um you

01:26:42.539 --> 01:26:46.250
know, the value of these programs. And I think you

01:26:46.259 --> 01:26:49.500
said it, you know, we're doing show so on energy efficiency

01:26:49.649 --> 01:26:53.970
That is kind of a something that came out is that maybe

01:26:53.979 --> 01:26:59.329
Texas as a whole, right? We could do better in capturing

01:26:59.338 --> 01:27:01.930
and conveying all that we're doing in energy efficiency

01:27:01.939 --> 01:27:04.659
So, you know, we talked about, you know, we have, you

01:27:04.668 --> 01:27:07.628
know, the IOU programs and the PUC but we also

01:27:07.640 --> 01:27:11.208
know Austin Energy and C P S Energy are doing a lot

01:27:11.220 --> 01:27:15.329
and that's getting reporting up to um the new uh

01:27:15.338 --> 01:27:18.310
I'm sorry, not the new that Cobos maybe also reporting

01:27:18.319 --> 01:27:23.199
it to the. Sorry, I took an allergy pill.

01:27:23.208 --> 01:27:25.378
but they're fear. I know that's why I see right now

01:27:25.390 --> 01:27:25.909
I offered her.

01:27:28.649 --> 01:27:32.270
But uh you know, the industrial opt outs could we measure

01:27:32.279 --> 01:27:36.149
that? I grab my water here, have that reported and

01:27:36.159 --> 01:27:39.689
measured on too. Um So just if there's a lot going

01:27:39.699 --> 01:27:43.798
on um in energy efficiency that we maybe don't all

01:27:43.810 --> 01:27:47.369
capture. Um And then the other thing here is the the

01:27:47.378 --> 01:27:50.109
other benefits, you know, and again, I won't spend

01:27:50.119 --> 01:27:53.079
a lot of time on that here because we're going to discuss

01:27:53.088 --> 01:27:57.079
it. But you know, really capturing the benefits these

01:27:57.088 --> 01:28:01.259
programs deliver um over how they're currently reported

01:28:03.500 --> 01:28:07.409
All right. Um This was another thing just really to

01:28:07.418 --> 01:28:13.079
keep in mind is um complexity, adds barriers and costs

01:28:13.088 --> 01:28:17.350
streamlining and flexibility, foster success. So there

01:28:17.359 --> 01:28:20.560
are multiple objectives for these programs, multiple

01:28:20.569 --> 01:28:23.649
things that we want to happen from them. We want that

01:28:23.659 --> 01:28:26.529
customer to see the savings on their energy bill, right

01:28:26.750 --> 01:28:30.859
We want those um demand reductions to be available

01:28:30.869 --> 01:28:34.918
when we need them here in Texas. Um we want that low

01:28:34.930 --> 01:28:38.079
income customer to feel more comfortable in their home

01:28:38.088 --> 01:28:41.444
So there's all sorts of things that we really, you

01:28:41.454 --> 01:28:45.015
know, want to accomplish through these programs. Um

01:28:45.444 --> 01:28:47.685
But also when you start slicing and dicing a bunch

01:28:47.694 --> 01:28:50.854
of different goals and a bunch of different requirements

01:28:51.164 --> 01:28:54.015
that can also make it harder. So just kind of keeping

01:28:54.024 --> 01:28:58.064
that in mind again of, you know, how do we get the

01:28:58.074 --> 01:29:01.354
programs to those who know stars without adding so

01:29:01.364 --> 01:29:04.055
much complexity that it actually becomes a barrier

01:29:04.064 --> 01:29:07.015
So keeping that in mind seem really important in the

01:29:07.024 --> 01:29:09.140
discussions too. So,

01:29:10.859 --> 01:29:14.449
so I did go for the timekeeping and I went fairly quick

01:29:14.458 --> 01:29:17.009
over the overarching themes because they really touch

01:29:17.020 --> 01:29:20.378
on things we're really gonna dive into. But before

01:29:20.390 --> 01:29:24.529
I move on is everyone feeling ok about there is anything

01:29:24.909 --> 01:29:28.989
missing before we get into more of the details.

01:29:32.628 --> 01:29:34.899
I love all these friends. You always give me the best

01:29:34.909 --> 01:29:35.470
Smile

01:29:38.239 --> 01:29:38.548
close.

01:29:41.500 --> 01:29:45.509
Yeah. All right. So what we have for each just to kind

01:29:45.520 --> 01:29:49.289
of lay out again how we hope to work this afternoon

01:29:49.520 --> 01:29:52.560
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. Did someone have a hand raise

01:29:54.680 --> 01:29:59.859
Um So we have three slides for each working group.

01:30:00.088 --> 01:30:06.048
The first slide is with all the issues that we identified

01:30:06.798 --> 01:30:10.939
and we're not gonna spend a lot of time on that slide

01:30:10.949 --> 01:30:14.310
because we're gonna get into those areas of agreement

01:30:14.319 --> 01:30:17.208
and areas of need of discussion. One of the things

01:30:17.220 --> 01:30:19.609
I want to point out before we get to that slide. So

01:30:19.619 --> 01:30:21.750
thank you for not forward yet. No, not yet.

01:30:24.458 --> 01:30:27.869
There's a lot of misunderstanding of which we put like

01:30:27.878 --> 01:30:35.359
a priority um from high to low on the different key

01:30:35.369 --> 01:30:39.439
issues. That's not anything on there is a key issue

01:30:39.449 --> 01:30:44.298
it needs to be addressed in one way or another. And

01:30:44.310 --> 01:30:48.918
it's very important to stakeholders. The priority was

01:30:49.220 --> 01:30:52.859
if it needed a rule change. So things that are high

01:30:52.869 --> 01:30:55.689
it's very clear looking at the rule that in order to

01:30:55.699 --> 01:30:58.930
make these areas of agreement happen, there's got to

01:30:58.939 --> 01:31:03.708
be a rule change or it it can't have it. The medium

01:31:03.720 --> 01:31:09.628
is boy there's a lot of area of agreement. So um maybe

01:31:09.640 --> 01:31:12.779
some minor modification to the rule change language

01:31:12.829 --> 01:31:16.470
but not that much like um so a really good one would

01:31:16.479 --> 01:31:19.509
be calculation of goal in the program, goals group

01:31:19.520 --> 01:31:23.109
that we're about to get to. Um, right now it's calculated

01:31:23.119 --> 01:31:27.029
over five years. Everyone really agrees that a multiyear

01:31:27.039 --> 01:31:29.668
look is good. But there's some discussion. Should it

01:31:29.680 --> 01:31:32.779
be three years, should it be trending or is the five

01:31:32.789 --> 01:31:35.439
year hours the best? Well, it is so good to have

01:31:35.449 --> 01:31:35.649
you.

01:31:37.720 --> 01:31:39.970
Sorry, I was just testifying on a Bill in the House.

01:31:40.168 --> 01:31:42.949
I know, we know, there are tons going

01:31:42.958 --> 01:31:43.350
on.

01:31:45.829 --> 01:31:48.909
Oh, you always ask such good question. We're just getting

01:31:48.918 --> 01:31:50.878
going. We already went through the best practices and

01:31:50.890 --> 01:31:53.850
overarching themes, which you've seen. And then I

01:31:53.859 --> 01:31:56.208
was just kind of reiterating before we get to that

01:31:56.220 --> 01:31:59.939
priority slide, that everything on there is priority

01:32:00.180 --> 01:32:03.449
but that high is really the rule change. The medium

01:32:03.458 --> 01:32:07.378
is lots of areas of agreement. So maybe some minor

01:32:07.390 --> 01:32:12.060
modifications, but it's pretty much there. Um The other

01:32:12.069 --> 01:32:16.399
thing that's in medium is that there's uncertainty

01:32:16.409 --> 01:32:19.600
that there needs to be a rule change. So a good example

01:32:19.609 --> 01:32:23.409
there is geo targeting that came across all the working

01:32:23.418 --> 01:32:26.600
groups of that would be really valuable to bundle,

01:32:26.609 --> 01:32:29.798
you know, energy efficiency and demand response, you

01:32:29.810 --> 01:32:32.680
know, congested feeders and ways that can really help

01:32:32.689 --> 01:32:36.850
the local um TND systems. There's nothing in there

01:32:36.859 --> 01:32:40.069
necessarily prevent, but there's also nothing, you

01:32:40.079 --> 01:32:43.750
know, is it, you know, do we need lawyers to give some

01:32:43.759 --> 01:32:46.359
advice if it would be helpful to have some role in

01:32:46.539 --> 01:32:48.520
order to add it. So that's kind of what's in the medium

01:32:48.939 --> 01:32:52.819
is it may not be. And then that, which I'm calling

01:32:52.829 --> 01:32:56.020
low again, really high priority, but it's just that

01:32:56.029 --> 01:33:00.208
a rule change isn't needed. And as one stakeholder

01:33:00.220 --> 01:33:03.470
said, you know, and I quoted her a few times, she's

01:33:03.479 --> 01:33:05.430
not here today, which is good. She's probably sick

01:33:05.439 --> 01:33:07.909
of me quoting her, but she's like, just because a rule

01:33:07.918 --> 01:33:10.239
change isn't needed, doesn't mean change. Is it need

01:33:10.250 --> 01:33:14.458
it. So a really good example that, that we'll get to

01:33:14.470 --> 01:33:18.729
is we went over, um a lot of the reps would like

01:33:18.739 --> 01:33:21.458
to participate more in the programs. We went over the

01:33:21.989 --> 01:33:25.149
the language, it's all there. So it's just making that

01:33:25.159 --> 01:33:28.600
happen. So it's really a process improvement, you know

01:33:28.609 --> 01:33:30.829
whether it's that coordination connecting the dots

01:33:30.838 --> 01:33:33.509
however, but it's not that the language needs to change

01:33:33.520 --> 01:33:36.479
So that's what that flow is coming from. So hopefully

01:33:36.489 --> 01:33:39.039
that makes sense as we walk through. But again, we're

01:33:39.048 --> 01:33:41.069
not going to spend a lot of time on the priority so

01:33:41.079 --> 01:33:44.199
we can move straight into the areas of agreement and

01:33:44.270 --> 01:33:48.600
um areas to discuss. The other thing I wanted to tell

01:33:48.609 --> 01:33:51.560
you. Um So at the beginning, so Cyrus, one of the things

01:33:51.569 --> 01:33:54.430
I had let off with is given, we have a half an

01:33:54.439 --> 01:33:56.829
hour for each working group. What we're really hoping

01:33:56.838 --> 01:34:00.399
is that every one feels really good about reviewing

01:34:00.409 --> 01:34:03.569
the Uber summary and submitting comments. So that's

01:34:03.579 --> 01:34:07.729
part of our objectives today too. So we did collapse

01:34:07.739 --> 01:34:11.640
the priorities down across each working group. So we're

01:34:11.649 --> 01:34:14.180
reporting back to you on each working group. But in

01:34:14.189 --> 01:34:18.458
that Uber summary, you know, we we worked in silos

01:34:18.470 --> 01:34:22.810
to get discussion done, but these things aren't Load

01:34:22.819 --> 01:34:26.159
at all. So they're all collapsed in that Uber summary

01:34:26.270 --> 01:34:29.239
across all working groups. So it's no longer in these

01:34:29.250 --> 01:34:31.869
pockets that you'll see here today, which is another

01:34:31.878 --> 01:34:33.659
reason we're not going to spend a lot of time on it

01:34:34.798 --> 01:34:40.048
All right. (item:9:38578, Program Goals and Demand Response) So here are the key issues that we identified

01:34:40.609 --> 01:34:44.279
in the program goal. So program goals. So I got two

01:34:44.289 --> 01:34:46.479
of the working groups, program goals and domain of

01:34:46.489 --> 01:34:51.958
response. Um We will take a break after you guys get

01:34:51.970 --> 01:34:55.930
done listening to me for the next hour. We'll take

01:34:55.939 --> 01:34:59.729
a 15 minute break and then we'll go through half an

01:34:59.739 --> 01:35:03.229
hour with the two groups at Tina Led, which is low

01:35:03.239 --> 01:35:06.479
income under served and then program planning. So we

01:35:06.489 --> 01:35:09.720
are going to time keep because we do have kind of an

01:35:09.729 --> 01:35:12.569
aggressive and I have one minute to start program goals

01:35:12.579 --> 01:35:13.500
or I'm behind.

01:35:15.020 --> 01:35:20.009
Um So again, here's the list, I am not gonna spend

01:35:20.020 --> 01:35:23.899
time on this since I think it's gonna be more productive

01:35:23.909 --> 01:35:26.838
um that we go straight into the areas of agreement

01:35:26.850 --> 01:35:29.798
and then the areas to discuss in our time here today

01:35:30.899 --> 01:35:35.890
All right. So again, I was really pleased. I didn't

01:35:35.899 --> 01:35:38.878
know when we kicked off this venture if we find a lot

01:35:38.890 --> 01:35:42.689
of areas of agreement and we did. So, one of the biggest

01:35:42.699 --> 01:35:45.350
ones that came out of the program goals is as people

01:35:45.359 --> 01:35:50.000
know right now, the, the only legislative goal is the

01:35:50.009 --> 01:35:56.159
demand reduction is the PKW um, savings. Now in

01:35:56.168 --> 01:36:00.329
the energy efficiency role, um, energy savings KW

01:36:00.338 --> 01:36:04.930
8 are set in relation to that PKW goal.

01:36:05.298 --> 01:36:09.798
And actually that was a big area of agreement in the

01:36:09.810 --> 01:36:14.350
program goals working group is PKW is very, very

01:36:14.359 --> 01:36:18.739
important here in Texas. Keep that as the primary Legislative

01:36:18.750 --> 01:36:23.079
goal. That's good. We, we like that, you know, we do

01:36:23.088 --> 01:36:25.560
that differently than other states. A lot of states

01:36:25.569 --> 01:36:29.060
their main goal is just energy savings and they really

01:36:29.069 --> 01:36:32.458
don't even have anything on PKW like PKW

01:36:32.470 --> 01:36:36.029
saying the focus in Texas. The other thing that came

01:36:36.039 --> 01:36:40.378
out is, you know, we know measures some save a lot

01:36:40.390 --> 01:36:42.949
in the summer peak, some save up a lot in the winter

01:36:42.958 --> 01:36:46.529
peak. Those are important. Um The program goals is

01:36:46.539 --> 01:36:51.079
all the same as uh they like having knowing what summer

01:36:51.088 --> 01:36:54.399
savings are, they like knowing what those winter peak

01:36:54.409 --> 01:36:59.029
savings are. Really, everyone would like to see those

01:36:59.039 --> 01:37:02.338
tracked and recorded whether or not however goals are

01:37:02.350 --> 01:37:05.399
set or whatever, understanding the benefits of the

01:37:05.409 --> 01:37:08.060
programs in both winter peak and summer peak seem to

01:37:08.069 --> 01:37:11.418
be a wide area of agreement. The TRM is already

01:37:11.430 --> 01:37:14.798
set up to allow that. So that was a big area of

01:37:14.810 --> 01:37:19.509
agreement with the importance of both of those. Um

01:37:19.520 --> 01:37:22.930
The other thing is in, in the rule. Um And it got

01:37:22.939 --> 01:37:26.699
talked about this morning when, um I think Jean went

01:37:26.708 --> 01:37:28.520
over it when she was talking about their winter Load

01:37:28.529 --> 01:37:32.430
Management program. We have very defined peak periods

01:37:32.439 --> 01:37:37.220
of, you know, this is the uh you know, December 1 to

01:37:37.229 --> 01:37:41.750
the end of February or um winter. And within that,

01:37:41.759 --> 01:37:45.579
it's just Monday through Friday. No holidays and then

01:37:45.588 --> 01:37:49.970
very specific times of the day, 6 to 10, in the

01:37:49.979 --> 01:37:54.569
winter summer, same thing. No holidays, no weekends

01:37:54.619 --> 01:37:56.798
May 1 to end of September.

01:37:58.520 --> 01:38:02.229
1 to 7, I think I have those right. But yeah, yeah

01:38:02.239 --> 01:38:06.069
Oh, 2 to 1. Yeah, but very, very defined. So,

01:38:06.359 --> 01:38:10.899
um that was another thing is as needs evolve. It's

01:38:10.909 --> 01:38:15.109
nice to have flexibility to respond to future needs

01:38:15.119 --> 01:38:19.489
So when you set very defined things based on historic

01:38:19.500 --> 01:38:22.319
needs, it doesn't allow us to adapt to future needs

01:38:22.418 --> 01:38:25.708
So how do you know, how do we look at those peak

01:38:25.720 --> 01:38:29.418
periods or even (inaudible) seasons? For example, how do we

01:38:29.430 --> 01:38:33.069
look at those things to be more flexible and more so

01:38:33.079 --> 01:38:35.739
in the future needs? So that was a big area of agreement

01:38:36.020 --> 01:38:42.319
there too? So, um, all right, program goals grew. Anything

01:38:42.529 --> 01:38:47.140
to add on the peak KW on the areas of agreement.

01:38:48.159 --> 01:38:52.009
Gary are those all looking right to you? Okay

01:38:55.140 --> 01:38:59.859
You, you're not on the hot seat at all? Okay. Um 

01:38:59.869 --> 01:39:04.588
KWH Savings, I really love this discussion. So even

01:39:04.600 --> 01:39:08.338
though the group was like, yeah, we get PKW really

01:39:08.350 --> 01:39:11.239
matters but to the customers they don't know what the

01:39:11.250 --> 01:39:16.060
heck that is and they don't really hear so much. Maybe

01:39:16.069 --> 01:39:18.829
you know, maybe a little bit more people are aware

01:39:18.878 --> 01:39:22.180
but they want to see that energy savings, they wanna

01:39:22.189 --> 01:39:25.564
see their bill, they want more money in their pocket

01:39:25.574 --> 01:39:29.444
right? So even though it was agreed, PKW is

01:39:29.454 --> 01:39:32.074
just such an important metric. We want to keep it as

01:39:32.083 --> 01:39:36.265
the primary one. Um We want those energy savings to

01:39:36.274 --> 01:39:39.463
customers. That's how they feel they directly benefit

01:39:39.475 --> 01:39:42.345
So that's really, really important that those kWh

01:39:42.354 --> 01:39:46.074
savings are preserved and delivered different ways

01:39:46.083 --> 01:39:49.305
to do that. Lots of discussion there. But people are

01:39:49.314 --> 01:39:50.864
a hard crowd after lunch. Like

01:39:54.560 --> 01:39:59.229
so in the discussion on peak KW, was there any evaluation

01:39:59.239 --> 01:40:03.359
of the difference between peak and net peak? In other

01:40:03.369 --> 01:40:07.239
words, peak these days with the abundance of solar

01:40:07.250 --> 01:40:11.239
on the system is a very different exercise than net

01:40:11.250 --> 01:40:15.079
peak, which may actually occur between 6 and 8.

01:40:17.140 --> 01:40:23.659
Um not really. We did talk more about taking that into

01:40:23.668 --> 01:40:27.149
account. In the demand response group. But I don't

01:40:27.159 --> 01:40:29.369
recall us really talking about that in the program

01:40:29.659 --> 01:40:33.039
But it is a good, it's a good point. But I would

01:40:33.048 --> 01:40:35.918
also say to me and correct me if I have this wrong

01:40:35.930 --> 01:40:38.168
I think it's a really good point and the fact that

01:40:38.859 --> 01:40:41.409
we do need to be flexible to respond to those future

01:40:41.418 --> 01:40:44.890
needs. Right? So as you have more, you know, solar

01:40:44.899 --> 01:40:48.229
and such coming on at peak, it, it's good to respond

01:40:48.239 --> 01:40:50.649
to that, right? Um Things are

01:40:53.009 --> 01:40:55.819
Yeah. No, it's a great, it's a great point. We didn't

01:40:56.039 --> 01:40:58.729
talk about it in program roles. It came up a little

01:40:58.739 --> 01:41:03.899
bit in demand response. Yeah. Good point. Sorry.

01:41:05.509 --> 01:41:08.279
Oh, good. I was gonna say someone for program go anything

01:41:08.289 --> 01:41:12.520
to add to that uh to Liz's question. No, there was

01:41:12.529 --> 01:41:17.029
discussion however, that peaks, um the value of peaks

01:41:17.588 --> 01:41:21.168
can differ across seasons and recognize that there

01:41:21.289 --> 01:41:23.668
may be looking at peaks at different time periods.

01:41:23.680 --> 01:41:26.918
So maybe that gets to the fact that there, there might

01:41:26.930 --> 01:41:30.250
be more importance for that 6-8 period than there would

01:41:30.259 --> 01:41:33.119
have been 20 years ago. Yeah, we did. That's actually

01:41:33.128 --> 01:41:35.350
really good point. We did spend um

01:41:36.859 --> 01:41:40.289
carbon banks with recur. She also worked for the California

01:41:40.298 --> 01:41:43.619
PUC She spent quite a bit talking about some of the

01:41:43.628 --> 01:41:46.430
models they have in California where they really are

01:41:46.439 --> 01:41:51.798
valuing it every single hour um across the year and

01:41:51.810 --> 01:41:55.930
taking into that net more. So we did discuss it and

01:41:55.939 --> 01:41:58.949
she did post something. So that, that's a good point

01:41:58.958 --> 01:42:02.548
So, we did touch on it. And is it, is this list

01:42:02.560 --> 01:42:05.899
for the Oncor? Oh, hi. I have not ever met you before

01:42:08.319 --> 01:42:10.729
I'll talk to you. Yeah. Good.

01:42:12.708 --> 01:42:15.500
And I don't know how accurate this observation is,

01:42:15.509 --> 01:42:18.168
but I, I made it during our discussion is that, you

01:42:18.180 --> 01:42:21.759
know, we look at it, you know, weekends are different

01:42:21.770 --> 01:42:24.548
But when I think about seeing the charts that I've

01:42:24.560 --> 01:42:28.789
seen of how much residential use was like, you know

01:42:28.798 --> 01:42:32.979
driving demand when we did have the winter, uh you

01:42:32.989 --> 01:42:35.359
know, and so forth, it, it really doesn't matter if

01:42:35.369 --> 01:42:38.890
that happened on a Saturday, we were demand. So, you

01:42:38.899 --> 01:42:42.918
know, I don't know if that, you know, including weekends

01:42:42.930 --> 01:42:45.520
would, would be valuable, but it's just something,

01:42:46.208 --> 01:42:49.798
it's, I think that's a perfect example of needing more

01:42:49.810 --> 01:42:54.319
flexibility because that was a perfect example of when

01:42:54.680 --> 01:42:58.539
the current defined periods looking historically wouldn't

01:42:58.548 --> 01:43:01.109
have helped us out in three years. So I went to one

01:43:01.140 --> 01:43:04.020
year. So that's, that's a really good point. Yeah,

01:43:06.699 --> 01:43:09.319
I didn't take part in either one of these but from

01:43:09.329 --> 01:43:12.229
a demand response. So that comes up demand response

01:43:12.418 --> 01:43:14.850
But the observation, the customers really want to see

01:43:15.039 --> 01:43:19.329
that the D R matters than the producer. And no, and

01:43:19.338 --> 01:43:23.640
I agree that one of the problems this market has is

01:43:24.100 --> 01:43:27.060
from the day competition start customers looking for

01:43:27.069 --> 01:43:30.159
cheap, you know, which one is the cheapest. And that's

01:43:30.168 --> 01:43:32.958
why the only real innovation we've had in this market

01:43:32.970 --> 01:43:35.548
is reps coming up with more creative ways to say I'm

01:43:35.560 --> 01:43:38.579
cheaper than the other. And it's, it's, uh, I've been

01:43:38.588 --> 01:43:43.029
in the business since the market opens and that's about

01:43:43.039 --> 01:43:45.579
all we've done well as we've come up more creative

01:43:45.588 --> 01:43:48.470
in our messaging. But demand response has really never

01:43:48.479 --> 01:43:51.918
resonated with customers who understand it. Traditionally

01:43:51.930 --> 01:43:54.609
it's, well, we'll give you 50 bucks and maybe we will

01:43:54.640 --> 01:43:57.539
or maybe we won't mess with your thermostat this summer. They don't

01:43:57.548 --> 01:44:02.088
understand the 50 bucks is all the value they see. And so I think

01:44:02.100 --> 01:44:06.289
that part of this, for this effort to succeed, we have

01:44:06.298 --> 01:44:10.359
to have a widespread residential consumer buy into

01:44:10.369 --> 01:44:13.708
it. And it's hard to picture a world in which we're

01:44:13.720 --> 01:44:15.750
gonna be able to give them so much money that everyone's

01:44:15.759 --> 01:44:18.069
gonna raise their hand and say, please turn off my

01:44:18.079 --> 01:44:20.949
lights and adjust my thermostat. And so there's a

01:44:20.958 --> 01:44:23.970
messaging component that goes back to that importance

01:44:24.048 --> 01:44:27.668
home of the peak, explaining to them that there is

01:44:27.680 --> 01:44:31.189
more than just money. There's value that the resiliency

01:44:31.199 --> 01:44:34.088
of the market that you can do your small part to have

01:44:34.100 --> 01:44:37.338
a big impact. And I think that's what has been missing

01:44:37.350 --> 01:44:40.418
from this market from day one is all about. Well, we

01:44:40.430 --> 01:44:42.850
can be cheaper than the next guy. So sign up with me

01:44:43.088 --> 01:44:45.180
until three months pass and then sign up for the next

01:44:45.189 --> 01:44:48.048
guy and we haven't been driving any real innovation

01:44:48.350 --> 01:44:50.140
We certainly haven't been driving very smart

01:44:52.083 --> 01:44:54.774
is not that smart, but we need that interaction between

01:44:54.784 --> 01:44:58.753
Load as, as generation becomes less interactive and

01:44:58.765 --> 01:45:00.854
that's the kind of thing. And I haven't seen anything

01:45:00.864 --> 01:45:04.614
about just general education. Just a general dissemination

01:45:04.625 --> 01:45:07.904
of what value is, not just price, it's value, but we

01:45:07.914 --> 01:45:09.064
haven't sold up in Texas.

01:45:11.213 --> 01:45:15.404
So we do. There is on one of the, it is about

01:45:15.414 --> 01:45:17.494
better. Yes, agree. The working group,

01:45:20.000 --> 01:45:22.958
I forget it if I waited too long. Well, it was, it

01:45:22.970 --> 01:45:25.539
wasn't the best practice, but we didn't do it uh on

01:45:25.628 --> 01:45:29.829
it in your specific example, I get it. Thank you. Um

01:45:30.310 --> 01:45:33.250
Yeah, so kind of on just building on your point. That's

01:45:33.259 --> 01:45:39.689
part of the reason two people talked about. Yes, demand

01:45:39.699 --> 01:45:42.479
s response. Yes, absolutely. People need to understand

01:45:42.489 --> 01:45:45.149
Wouldn't it be great if they understood PKW and all

01:45:45.159 --> 01:45:49.628
of that? But again, reaching customers with not just

01:45:49.640 --> 01:45:53.149
okay, here's a smart thermostat. You know, we're gonna

01:45:53.159 --> 01:45:55.329
use it for demand response, but here's the savings

01:45:55.338 --> 01:45:57.759
it delivers all year round too, right? So that they

01:45:57.770 --> 01:46:03.430
also see that benefit. So, yeah. All right. And, and

01:46:03.439 --> 01:46:06.770
just to be, we, we're looking for agreements that want

01:46:06.779 --> 01:46:10.810
to be. But um, I'll say energy savings goals are important

01:46:10.819 --> 01:46:16.529
as well. And, well, the Legislature said peak demand

01:46:16.539 --> 01:46:20.890
is what we want you to focus on, they do say administer

01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:25.430
you know, energy efficiency programs that include both

01:46:25.439 --> 01:46:28.759
demand and, and energy savings. So I think there's

01:46:28.770 --> 01:46:33.399
clearly a need for both. Um and whether that's a separate

01:46:33.409 --> 01:46:38.609
goal or how we calculate it, I think it's clear is

01:46:38.619 --> 01:46:42.069
there if I could just Yeah, I agree. I I my point

01:46:42.079 --> 01:46:44.199
is not that anything up there is wrong. I think that

01:46:44.208 --> 01:46:46.930
the one of the reasons demand responds in Texas has

01:46:46.939 --> 01:46:49.529
not been broadly accepted. People don't understand

01:46:50.338 --> 01:46:53.229
and they understand why they should care. And so I

01:46:53.239 --> 01:46:56.458
think to drive energy consumption reduction to drive

01:46:56.470 --> 01:47:00.659
reduction to lower peak during times of high demand

01:47:01.109 --> 01:47:03.239
um we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to have to

01:47:03.250 --> 01:47:06.088
come up with another way to articulate consumers. Why

01:47:06.100 --> 01:47:10.529
why it matters? Is it environmental, is it enhanced

01:47:10.539 --> 01:47:14.029
reliability is reducing overall cost of the grid? All

01:47:14.039 --> 01:47:15.829
of those are going to resonate, but we're not saying

01:47:15.838 --> 01:47:16.039
that

01:47:18.770 --> 01:47:22.270
good, good, good, good point. I, you know, it was really

01:47:22.369 --> 01:47:25.180
and I knew Austin Energy already had this uh program

01:47:25.189 --> 01:47:27.579
But it's interesting to hear Mark talk about, you know

01:47:27.588 --> 01:47:29.949
energy program and I was like, you know, people were

01:47:29.958 --> 01:47:32.819
willing to pay that extra that, you know, have a renewable

01:47:32.829 --> 01:47:36.539
energy or buy into a so there is receptivity with the

01:47:36.548 --> 01:47:39.279
right marketing for some of these ideas, I think. So

01:47:39.289 --> 01:47:43.239
I think that's a good point. Um I do want to Cyrus

01:47:43.250 --> 01:47:45.404
I thought yours was a good thing way. So again, in

01:47:45.414 --> 01:47:48.543
that KWH recognizing how important that is, that's

01:47:48.555 --> 01:47:51.543
how the customer, that energy savings, that's how the

01:47:51.555 --> 01:47:56.043
customer really experiences the benefits. Um Here is

01:47:56.055 --> 01:47:59.793
what was really surprising to me. So, working across

01:47:59.805 --> 01:48:02.725
multiple states, right in states that have, it's very

01:48:02.734 --> 01:48:08.963
common to have that um percent of um sales set as an

01:48:08.975 --> 01:48:12.128
energy savings target. I thought that's where this

01:48:12.140 --> 01:48:15.939
working group was gonna go. Um It's not where they

01:48:15.949 --> 01:48:18.859
went. They were like, you know what, we want to make

01:48:18.869 --> 01:48:22.270
sure those energy savings are delivered, but we want

01:48:22.279 --> 01:48:24.259
to make sure they're delivered in a way that makes

01:48:24.270 --> 01:48:27.548
sense for Texas. So again, this is where there's gonna

01:48:27.560 --> 01:48:32.159
be a lot of discussion. Um but there was a lot of

01:48:32.168 --> 01:48:33.680
receptivity of,

01:48:35.270 --> 01:48:38.750
we might not need this separate, you know, percent

01:48:38.759 --> 01:48:41.020
energy savings goal, whether it's through the existing

01:48:41.029 --> 01:48:44.899
energy conservation, Load factor that's set in relation

01:48:44.909 --> 01:48:48.949
to PKW or whether it's through some ideas, we throw

01:48:49.000 --> 01:48:52.798
out as like where you uh set the uh hard to reach

01:48:52.810 --> 01:48:57.173
goals or low income goals or if you set a certain percent

01:48:57.185 --> 01:49:00.204
that is low management and the rest above that has

01:49:00.213 --> 01:49:03.475
to be, there was just a lot of brainstorming is there

01:49:03.484 --> 01:49:06.095
are different ways to get there. Keep the focus on

01:49:06.104 --> 01:49:09.944
PKW and use these other mechanisms to make sure those

01:49:09.954 --> 01:49:13.259
energy savings happen. That's just not what I expected

01:49:13.270 --> 01:49:15.458
Um having worked in other states, I thought, oh, people

01:49:15.470 --> 01:49:18.458
will really want what happens in other states and people

01:49:18.470 --> 01:49:22.208
were really creative and thinking about how do we make

01:49:22.220 --> 01:49:25.298
this work the best with Texas. So lots of ideas were

01:49:25.310 --> 01:49:29.458
thrown out care. Um So are you saying that that was

01:49:29.470 --> 01:49:35.819
an agreement though? An agreement was that PKW

01:49:35.829 --> 01:49:41.899
is the main Legislative goal and use other goals or

01:49:42.039 --> 01:49:48.270
mechanisms to make sure that PKW is also delivering

01:49:48.439 --> 01:49:54.350
energy savings. So, for example okay if the PKW,

01:49:55.048 --> 01:49:57.939
this is only how much can be from Load Management,

01:49:57.949 --> 01:50:00.739
the rest needs to be from energy efficiency programs

01:50:00.949 --> 01:50:04.939
Um another one was um so Alison Silverstein isn't here

01:50:05.128 --> 01:50:09.250
but she argued that like, hey, if you have this amount

01:50:09.259 --> 01:50:13.270
that needs to go to low income and hard to reach, you

01:50:13.279 --> 01:50:17.829
know, and that's where the energy savings are and um

01:50:17.838 --> 01:50:20.699
you know, that PKW, you know, get the track and

01:50:20.708 --> 01:50:24.168
the rest of residential. So, yes, there was a lot of

01:50:24.180 --> 01:50:28.149
agreement that we don't need to adopt what's from other

01:50:28.159 --> 01:50:32.619
states, which is that percent of annual sales to Texas.

01:50:32.770 --> 01:50:35.338
Um You know, and we did and Todd was really great.

01:50:35.350 --> 01:50:38.069
So we were put in their report um where you guys do

01:50:38.079 --> 01:50:44.418
show that metric, you know, and uh Texas I use, I looking

01:50:44.430 --> 01:50:47.310
great at that and I thought that was gonna be advocated

01:50:47.319 --> 01:50:50.680
by the group, but it was really energy savings is really

01:50:50.689 --> 01:50:54.039
important and there are different ways we can get those

01:50:54.048 --> 01:50:57.509
delivered. Keeping our eye on the ball of PKW

01:50:59.060 --> 01:51:02.520
Yeah, I would, I would say as the person who did the

01:51:02.529 --> 01:51:05.350
rulemaking petition, we still think an energy savings

01:51:05.359 --> 01:51:09.119
goal is very important. Uh But I do think there are

01:51:09.128 --> 01:51:10.739
different ways to get there. Yeah, that, that's what

01:51:10.750 --> 01:51:13.319
I'm trying to say is there are others. So for example

01:51:13.329 --> 01:51:16.149
Cyrus, one of the takeaways I had from you is, you

01:51:16.159 --> 01:51:18.989
know, hey, this conservation Load factor that's set

01:51:19.000 --> 01:51:21.829
in relation to PKW. It, it kind of makes sense

01:51:21.838 --> 01:51:24.588
for Texas We want it higher, right? Sierra Club wants

01:51:24.600 --> 01:51:29.088
it higher. But you know, we don't have to scrap that

01:51:29.100 --> 01:51:31.088
and do something another state's doing. Maybe that

01:51:31.100 --> 01:51:33.729
really is the best for Texas. So that's what we're trying

01:51:33.739 --> 01:51:37.220
to capture is I really thought we would come away from

01:51:37.229 --> 01:51:40.949
this, of people saying we ought to do what other states

01:51:40.958 --> 01:51:43.750
do and instead of people are like PKW

01:51:43.759 --> 01:51:47.699
right? Let's get those energy savings happening in

01:51:47.708 --> 01:51:51.378
some way. That makes sense, giving that main metric

01:51:51.390 --> 01:51:56.208
of PKW or to say another way, what we care

01:51:56.220 --> 01:52:01.259
about ultimately is results, right? So if the way to

01:52:01.270 --> 01:52:04.250
get there is to set a specific goal and that's how

01:52:04.259 --> 01:52:06.789
you get results fine if there are other ways to get

01:52:06.798 --> 01:52:10.489
there or think about commercial and residential and

01:52:10.500 --> 01:52:13.289
low income slightly differently in terms of the goals

01:52:13.298 --> 01:52:16.088
that may be. I really like how you said that we were

01:52:16.100 --> 01:52:18.890
really, it was so results focused. It was, we want

01:52:18.899 --> 01:52:21.789
those results to happen. There are different ways that

01:52:21.798 --> 01:52:23.720
it could happen. Let's talk about it. Let's figure

01:52:23.729 --> 01:52:26.909
out the best way to Texas to make that happen. So,

01:52:27.168 --> 01:52:32.119
um, all right, um This one, I think it's gonna not

01:52:32.128 --> 01:52:34.668
be, it's gonna come up over and over again. So let's

01:52:34.680 --> 01:52:38.250
talk about it now because it'll be on every slide probably

01:52:38.259 --> 01:52:41.220
is, you know, people are like they'd like to see GEO

01:52:41.229 --> 01:52:45.180
targeting, right? Um In Texas where we have bundled

01:52:45.189 --> 01:52:48.720
energy efficiency and demand response options where

01:52:48.729 --> 01:52:52.500
it makes sense in local utility systems, they see that

01:52:52.509 --> 01:52:54.979
as a big benefit. Um

01:52:57.079 --> 01:53:00.829
Anybody disagree with GEO targeting as something that's

01:53:00.838 --> 01:53:02.029
beneficial to.

01:53:03.609 --> 01:53:07.270
Can you, can you define what view targeting is in this

01:53:07.279 --> 01:53:11.918
context? Like Gary sitting right next to you with a

01:53:12.000 --> 01:53:14.369
lot of thought and some of the ideas you guys have

01:53:14.378 --> 01:53:18.069
had. Well, I think predominantly it's, it's looking

01:53:18.109 --> 01:53:22.810
at various parts of the service area where you may

01:53:22.819 --> 01:53:27.100
have issues. It may not be related to grid, it may

01:53:27.109 --> 01:53:30.850
be a, a public thing, it may be uh but not in

01:53:30.859 --> 01:53:34.569
my backyard or it may be that we need additional funding

01:53:34.579 --> 01:53:38.949
to do the additional infrastructure build out whatever

01:53:38.958 --> 01:53:43.449
the reason, providing a concentrated effort in that

01:53:43.458 --> 01:53:47.520
area with demand response energy efficiency, potentially

01:53:47.529 --> 01:53:51.430
renewable to identify what's the problem in the area

01:53:51.439 --> 01:53:53.560
that we're trying to correct and then put the proper

01:53:53.569 --> 01:53:56.850
resources against that to make sure that we're addressing

01:53:56.859 --> 01:53:59.668
the issue that's there and that, that, that could be

01:53:59.680 --> 01:54:03.289
different for different areas. Mhm. And I think at

01:54:03.298 --> 01:54:06.500
the memo dean, we put, uh you know, specifically, like

01:54:06.649 --> 01:54:10.029
you know, meeting locational needs through data, you

01:54:10.039 --> 01:54:13.569
know, we added a little more definition in the memo

01:54:13.750 --> 01:54:16.489
So that's a really good point. But since I knew you

01:54:16.500 --> 01:54:18.369
guys, I put thoughts on it, I love

01:54:20.140 --> 01:54:20.220
that.

01:54:22.378 --> 01:54:24.168
Anything else on geo targeting?

01:54:25.939 --> 01:54:29.909
All right. Um OK, I'm gonna try to wrap up ayes agreement

01:54:29.918 --> 01:54:32.989
in two minutes. We have 10 minutes for our areas to

01:54:33.000 --> 01:54:37.699
discuss um consideration that affect goals again. You're

01:54:37.708 --> 01:54:42.680
gonna see these come up over and over again. So it's

01:54:42.689 --> 01:54:48.149
not that we agree on what they should be as we get

01:54:48.159 --> 01:54:51.298
to the next slide on things to discuss, it was disagreed

01:54:51.310 --> 01:54:55.649
Wow, these things really matter, like what goal feasible

01:54:55.659 --> 01:55:00.350
and attainable where they set matter. So cost caps

01:55:00.359 --> 01:55:04.289
came up, right? So there's a certain, um you know,

01:55:04.298 --> 01:55:07.060
in the rule, there's a certain amount per customer

01:55:07.069 --> 01:55:09.418
it's different for residential commercial. I cannot

01:55:09.430 --> 01:55:13.890
put it off my head, but it's in the memo um of

01:55:13.899 --> 01:55:16.060
what those are and then they can go up based on the

01:55:16.069 --> 01:55:20.449
CPI um that fund the Energy Efficiency program so

01:55:20.829 --> 01:55:24.649
especially a lot of the smaller utilities are already

01:55:24.659 --> 01:55:28.409
at their cost cap limit. So that's something that everyone

01:55:28.418 --> 01:55:32.149
agreed. Ok, we need to discuss this more. Um, another

01:55:32.159 --> 01:55:37.759
thing that was, uh, an area of agreement on that was

01:55:37.770 --> 01:55:41.359
um, performance bonuses. Everyone agrees they're needed.

01:55:41.369 --> 01:55:43.708
Now, that doesn't mean they don't need to be, you know

01:55:44.458 --> 01:55:47.359
more discussion on it. But the fact that, yeah, I mean

01:55:47.369 --> 01:55:50.298
if we're gonna, you know, ask the utilities to do this

01:55:50.310 --> 01:55:53.009
there needs to be some sort of uh care involved. So

01:55:53.020 --> 01:55:56.640
that was an area of agreement, not the exact specifics

01:55:57.009 --> 01:56:02.720
Um Another one, um that was another big one is that

01:56:03.159 --> 01:56:07.220
when we're looking at goals, all these goals matter

01:56:07.229 --> 01:56:10.229
right? So, you know, in particular, the one that's

01:56:10.239 --> 01:56:14.140
gonna keep coming up is the feasibility of a PKW

01:56:14.149 --> 01:56:17.970
goal really matters of the role Load management plays

01:56:17.979 --> 01:56:21.284
in that. So you're gonna hear that over and over again

01:56:21.305 --> 01:56:23.375
That's kind of at one time, I think we just called

01:56:23.384 --> 01:56:26.774
it the elephant in the room. So in order to make progress

01:56:26.784 --> 01:56:29.444
let's assume Load management is in the energy efficiency

01:56:29.454 --> 01:56:32.654
portfolios and move forward because that's the elephant

01:56:32.664 --> 01:56:34.664
in the room. I don't make that call, but we needed

01:56:34.673 --> 01:56:38.524
to make progress. So just recognizing that is something

01:56:38.534 --> 01:56:41.225
that keeps coming up is there's uncertainty around

01:56:41.234 --> 01:56:46.689
that. Um And then uh Ken, I think this was um your

01:56:46.699 --> 01:56:49.430
point here, it did kept coming up you know, effective

01:56:49.439 --> 01:56:55.680
marketing education of the customer. Um, that is really

01:56:55.689 --> 01:56:59.829
important too. Um, and that there are ways to doing

01:56:59.838 --> 01:57:02.520
that. So there were ideas discussed a lot about increased

01:57:02.529 --> 01:57:05.479
coordination with the reps. Um, all the way to right

01:57:05.489 --> 01:57:09.279
now and the rule that lists out what is in administrative

01:57:09.289 --> 01:57:12.810
cost caps. Marketing is in there. Maybe there's a separate

01:57:12.819 --> 01:57:15.548
line item for marketing or customer education or we

01:57:15.560 --> 01:57:21.029
just recognizing that, um marketing is important that

01:57:21.039 --> 01:57:26.850
marketing to customers. So, all right, I made it to

01:57:26.859 --> 01:57:32.918
10 minutes for our areas to discuss. Um All right,

01:57:32.930 --> 01:57:34.720
so this is where s

01:57:36.668 --> 01:57:40.088
participated in these working groups. This is working

01:57:40.548 --> 01:57:44.819
but I was on the road or in another meeting. Um Did

01:57:44.829 --> 01:57:49.930
the idea of where to put the performance bonus, whether

01:57:49.939 --> 01:57:52.390
it needs to be under the cost cap or it can be

01:57:52.399 --> 01:57:55.949
considered separately. Did that come up in our discussions

01:57:55.958 --> 01:58:00.229
or was that it didn't in program goals? But I in program

01:58:00.239 --> 01:58:03.229
planning, we had performance s will we get to that

01:58:03.239 --> 01:58:06.949
then? Yeah. OK. So, yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. So

01:58:06.958 --> 01:58:09.020
we'll get back to it. So again, that's why I was trying

01:58:09.029 --> 01:58:11.878
to say it's not that there's not a lot to be discussed

01:58:11.890 --> 01:58:14.829
on it. It's just agreement. Everybody was like, yeah

01:58:14.838 --> 01:58:20.930
this is, this is needed. So um so we talked about all

01:58:20.939 --> 01:58:24.659
the agreement on PKW uh everybody recognizing it's

01:58:24.668 --> 01:58:27.750
really important, but there are a lot of things still

01:58:27.759 --> 01:58:32.128
to work out. So, um how, how are both summer and winter

01:58:32.140 --> 01:58:37.770
peak to be valued? So right now, the rule has for,

01:58:37.779 --> 01:58:41.149
you know, a measure that's installed, you can either

01:58:41.159 --> 01:58:45.869
claim the peak savings in the summer or in the winter

01:58:45.878 --> 01:58:49.329
but you can't save both. So, a lot of discussions.

01:58:49.338 --> 01:58:51.659
So, should those be additive if they're additive, how

01:58:51.668 --> 01:58:54.350
do we avoid double counting? Should there be separate

01:58:54.359 --> 01:58:58.208
summer peak goals, separate winter peak goals? Lots

01:58:58.220 --> 01:59:02.109
of discussion on that. And then the other thing was

01:59:02.259 --> 01:59:04.909
and then what about the shoulder seasons? Right? You

01:59:04.918 --> 01:59:08.875
know, we, there's not any value for reductions in the

01:59:08.884 --> 01:59:11.694
shoulder seasons or is there a need to address the

01:59:11.704 --> 01:59:16.503
shoulder season? So even with the wide agreement on

01:59:16.515 --> 01:59:20.694
how important that PKW is exactly how it's valued

01:59:20.704 --> 01:59:23.015
and addressed, there's still things to work out.

01:59:24.569 --> 01:59:28.770
Thoughts on that, on the, the PKW items to work

01:59:28.779 --> 01:59:30.838
out on it.

01:59:34.529 --> 01:59:37.680
I'm really kind of at a loss of how I'm supposed to

01:59:37.689 --> 01:59:41.878
participate today. I have to tell you. Okay. Um So are

01:59:41.890 --> 01:59:44.649
you asking now for the whole group to discuss those

01:59:44.659 --> 01:59:49.259
issues or are you just still tee up? And sometime we're

01:59:49.270 --> 01:59:52.909
all gonna get into small groups. I heard you say. Yeah

01:59:52.918 --> 01:59:55.989
so, well, so we have, we have two objectives in trying

01:59:56.000 --> 02:00:00.430
to get through today is one because we have a condensed

02:00:00.439 --> 02:00:03.289
amount of time for each working group of half an hour

02:00:03.298 --> 02:00:06.649
We're trying to give a enough of an overview of what

02:00:06.659 --> 02:00:10.899
the working group discussed that people feel comfortable

02:00:11.048 --> 02:00:16.128
We have that giant memo filed in EEIP yesterday that

02:00:16.140 --> 02:00:18.850
people feel comfortable reading it and submitting comments

02:00:18.859 --> 02:00:22.270
so that then their comments filed. So that really is

02:00:22.279 --> 02:00:26.930
the main objective. But it is important. Also in the

02:00:26.939 --> 02:00:30.359
time that we have obviously there are details that

02:00:30.369 --> 02:00:33.009
have to be hammered out. So if I said to Cyrus, well

02:00:33.020 --> 02:00:36.069
Cyrus, where do you want that conservation Load factor

02:00:36.079 --> 02:00:39.668
set? If we agree with that, that's not for today, that's

02:00:39.680 --> 02:00:43.789
for down the road if the role is open, but we want

02:00:43.798 --> 02:00:46.430
to make sure in this bigger group, right? So you earn

02:00:46.470 --> 02:00:49.838
demand response. If you see anything really missing

02:00:49.850 --> 02:00:53.279
from the program goals group, this is your opportunity

02:00:53.289 --> 02:00:57.060
kind of to, you know, think of this and another opportunity

02:00:57.069 --> 02:00:59.399
is once you review and submit comments on the full

02:00:59.409 --> 02:01:03.079
memo. So does that give you a better feeling of what

02:01:03.088 --> 02:01:07.310
we're hoping to accomplish today? Yes, I think so.

02:01:07.699 --> 02:01:10.878
I think the one overarching thing I would say is you've

02:01:10.890 --> 02:01:15.798
done a great job of boiling down a lot of very diverse

02:01:15.810 --> 02:01:20.609
comments to make it sound kind of homogeneous. And

02:01:20.619 --> 02:01:25.000
I didn't pick that up. So we don't think so. I think

02:01:25.180 --> 02:01:28.458
so. We're, we're doing two things. So I just went through

02:01:28.470 --> 02:01:33.539
areas of agreement where there was, but even the areas

02:01:33.548 --> 02:01:38.609
of agreement that, you know, you said some inoffensive

02:01:38.619 --> 02:01:42.430
things generally, but there's issues buried in every

02:01:42.439 --> 02:01:44.989
one of those, right? And I'm trying to recognize that

02:01:45.000 --> 02:01:48.500
and those are details to get worked out. So, for example

02:01:48.529 --> 02:01:52.039
on the performance bonus, I said it was, it was agreed

02:01:52.048 --> 02:01:56.939
everyone was like a performance bonus is needed. But

02:01:57.668 --> 02:02:02.628
revisiting that looking at best practices, you know

02:02:02.640 --> 02:02:05.699
there were things like, ok, well, let's quit a cap

02:02:05.708 --> 02:02:08.878
on how much of the budget can go to performance bonus

02:02:09.390 --> 02:02:12.680
There is a lot to be discussed to me that's a process

02:02:12.689 --> 02:02:17.418
that once the open. So we're just trying to organize

02:02:17.430 --> 02:02:20.720
the issues and we are trying to

02:02:22.329 --> 02:02:26.899
identify, there is a lot to build on, right? Like if

02:02:26.909 --> 02:02:29.048
you just focus on all the things we disagree, there's

02:02:29.060 --> 02:02:32.060
a lot to build on the areas of agreement. And then

02:02:32.069 --> 02:02:35.060
this slide which I went to is trying to point out there's

02:02:35.069 --> 02:02:38.729
a lot of things in the weeds that need to be discussed

02:02:38.739 --> 02:02:41.779
and worked out. So I'm not trying to gloss over that

02:02:41.789 --> 02:02:46.029
I'm trying to introduce how much is in the weeds. So

02:02:46.039 --> 02:02:49.720
in the detailed summary tables, we list all those different

02:02:49.729 --> 02:02:54.609
perspectives. Um because there's a lot, um

02:02:56.548 --> 02:03:00.378
I just haven't seen as much opportunity to recognize

02:03:01.909 --> 02:03:05.220
areas in need of further discussion. That could be

02:03:05.470 --> 02:03:09.079
you know, that seems to me that more because I just

02:03:09.088 --> 02:03:14.458
know. So we have this for Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think

02:03:14.470 --> 02:03:16.708
maybe Bob where I lost, I did also start with best

02:03:16.720 --> 02:03:19.909
practices and over a themes. So I presented a lot of

02:03:19.918 --> 02:03:22.699
areas of agreement and now I'm to the working group

02:03:22.708 --> 02:03:24.708
So for each working group, we have both the areas of

02:03:24.720 --> 02:03:27.479
agreement and all the areas that we discuss because

02:03:27.489 --> 02:03:34.229
there's a lot. Yeah. Um So on that, here's the huge

02:03:34.239 --> 02:03:38.649
one KW 8 Savings. So again, I said everybody

02:03:38.659 --> 02:03:42.759
recognizes those are really important. Everyone recognizes

02:03:42.770 --> 02:03:47.029
their different ways to get to those results as Cyrus

02:03:47.039 --> 02:03:51.310
put it. But, oh my goodness, the different perspectives

02:03:51.319 --> 02:03:57.989
and opinions of the ways we set KW- 8 savings in Texas

02:03:58.000 --> 02:04:00.560
is big. So this is a big thing that's gonna need a

02:04:00.569 --> 02:04:04.529
lot of discussion. Do we stay with the energy conservation

02:04:04.539 --> 02:04:08.168
Load factor that sets it as a percent of PKW

02:04:08.298 --> 02:04:15.418
that's currently at .2. And does that go up or do we

02:04:15.930 --> 02:04:19.668
cap how much of the PKW can be from Load

02:04:19.680 --> 02:04:24.109
Management or do we set goals from hard to reach to

02:04:24.119 --> 02:04:27.640
low income that force a certain amount of that to be

02:04:27.649 --> 02:04:32.500
energy efficiency? Like how KW 8 savings is set

02:04:32.509 --> 02:04:36.759
This is an area that when the rule is open is gonna

02:04:36.829 --> 02:04:40.180
everybody's gonna have to debate that out. So Bob,

02:04:40.189 --> 02:04:43.048
you've been in a rule making before Cyrus, you have

02:04:43.060 --> 02:04:45.939
like this is quite the process more than I have in

02:04:45.949 --> 02:04:48.100
the two minutes. I have left for this program. So I'm

02:04:48.109 --> 02:04:51.628
just trying to let everyone know this is an area. Be

02:04:51.640 --> 02:04:54.649
ready, think about what you want. Commissioner Jackson is going

02:04:54.659 --> 02:04:58.500
to be listening, submit those comments. Um

02:05:00.708 --> 02:05:06.958
uh Same thing level of goals for both huge, huge discussion

02:05:08.100 --> 02:05:11.250
People want them increased, say they're way too low

02:05:11.298 --> 02:05:14.930
Other people say, hey, we have rising baselines, it's

02:05:14.939 --> 02:05:18.128
getting more expensive. They said this low growth,

02:05:18.140 --> 02:05:20.838
keep them where they are, the perspectives on that

02:05:20.850 --> 02:05:24.600
level of goals is all over. So again, be ready for

02:05:24.609 --> 02:05:27.310
that, Mr Jackson is going to be listening.

02:05:28.949 --> 02:05:35.048
Um The considerations that s huge customer cost cap

02:05:35.168 --> 02:05:38.449
where should that be? Are they set about? Right? So

02:05:38.609 --> 02:05:41.789
you know, my guess not to put Carl and Samantha on

02:05:41.798 --> 02:05:44.560
the spot, but as representing the cities, you know

02:05:44.569 --> 02:05:47.399
representing Oncor they're gonna want to really make

02:05:47.409 --> 02:05:49.319
sure they'll stay reasonable. They'll be submitting

02:05:49.329 --> 02:05:54.329
comments on that as um Cyrus putting you all on the

02:05:54.338 --> 02:05:58.029
spot again, Cyrus may be like those can triple, right

02:05:58.199 --> 02:06:01.439
I'm not really not that you would say that but Okay,

02:06:04.739 --> 02:06:04.789
yes,

02:06:09.069 --> 02:06:13.739
so yes, so really a lot to be worked out. So we're

02:06:13.750 --> 02:06:18.418
just trying to queue it up is these are the main issues

02:06:18.430 --> 02:06:21.020
there was a lot of agreement, but there's a lot still

02:06:21.029 --> 02:06:23.859
to be discussed so that the Commission is ready. They

02:06:23.869 --> 02:06:26.899
know what is important to stakeholders. So, you know

02:06:26.909 --> 02:06:29.798
that cost cap, it did come up, you know, Hey, Austin

02:06:29.810 --> 02:06:32.659
and Energy and CPS Energy, those are much higher

02:06:33.029 --> 02:06:36.609
Um Here's that maximum performance bonus, you know

02:06:36.619 --> 02:06:40.810
it's a metric to kind of manage that cost effectiveness

02:06:40.819 --> 02:06:45.289
came up this morning. You know, how is cost effectiveness

02:06:45.298 --> 02:06:48.140
gone? Can it be said at the program level, we have

02:06:48.149 --> 02:06:50.628
some stakeholders who really want it at the program

02:06:50.640 --> 02:06:53.399
level. We have other stakeholders who really want it

02:06:53.409 --> 02:06:56.029
at the portfolio level. We do not have agreement on

02:06:56.039 --> 02:07:00.199
that. Um So this is just showing this is a consideration

02:07:00.208 --> 02:07:05.850
So because I'm out of time for program goals, I want

02:07:05.859 --> 02:07:09.970
to make sure everyone, again, the main objective in

02:07:09.979 --> 02:07:14.000
our limited time is to make sure people understand

02:07:14.009 --> 02:07:17.878
the issues, the range of issues feel good about going

02:07:17.890 --> 02:07:21.689
to look at that Uber summary that was filed and feel

02:07:21.699 --> 02:07:24.140
good to submit their own individual comments because

02:07:24.149 --> 02:07:27.949
people are gonna have very different opinions on these

02:07:27.958 --> 02:07:31.289
areas and need a further discussion. So,

02:07:33.989 --> 02:07:34.720
all right.

02:07:36.489 --> 02:07:39.850
OK. I'm gonna move on to the next one, demand response

02:07:39.859 --> 02:07:43.878
and Load management. Um Again, we're not going to spend

02:07:43.890 --> 02:07:46.369
a lot of time on the key issues because they're gonna

02:07:46.378 --> 02:07:50.609
come up. But we really spent time identifying, we brainstormed

02:07:50.619 --> 02:07:53.899
together. Here are all the things that matter for demand

02:07:53.909 --> 02:07:58.168
response. Now, demand response is than the other working

02:07:58.180 --> 02:08:01.298
groups because we spent a whole, we have four sessions

02:08:01.310 --> 02:08:03.479
and it is only working group. We spend a whole session

02:08:03.489 --> 02:08:08.430
on best practices. Um So you'll kind of see those come

02:08:08.439 --> 02:08:13.798
up again in the areas of agreement. All right. So we

02:08:13.810 --> 02:08:16.128
already kind of talked about this. So there's a lot

02:08:16.140 --> 02:08:22.088
of discussion, um demand response of, you know, responding

02:08:22.100 --> 02:08:25.250
for the ERCOT utilities for EEA 2, right? We all

02:08:25.259 --> 02:08:28.449
know that that's something that's expected. So, an

02:08:28.458 --> 02:08:31.850
area of agreement was what we talk about in the program

02:08:31.859 --> 02:08:36.850
goals of, hey, there's also benefits um for local needs

02:08:36.859 --> 02:08:40.430
So that geo targeting comes back, I I did say you would

02:08:40.439 --> 02:08:44.199
keep seeing that that came back again as an area of

02:08:44.208 --> 02:08:48.458
agreement, you'll see this, this ended up in a best

02:08:48.470 --> 02:08:54.529
practice. But the point that the demand response programs

02:08:54.539 --> 02:08:58.548
in the energy efficiency portfolio need to complement

02:08:58.560 --> 02:09:01.668
other offerings, right? So they shouldn't be there

02:09:01.930 --> 02:09:06.418
to compete with ERS they have, they should have their

02:09:06.430 --> 02:09:10.289
own specific role. There are, you know, different opinions

02:09:10.298 --> 02:09:13.270
on that so again, in the summary tables, for example

02:09:13.279 --> 02:09:16.579
Bob, one of the um perspectives we captured for you

02:09:16.588 --> 02:09:19.079
that I thought was really interesting is, hey, when

02:09:19.088 --> 02:09:22.588
you have people participating for a long time in a

02:09:22.600 --> 02:09:24.918
utility Load Management program and they really know

02:09:24.930 --> 02:09:27.149
what they're doing, maybe it's time for them to move

02:09:27.159 --> 02:09:31.699
to ERS right, and then kind of use the utility programs

02:09:31.708 --> 02:09:34.649
as a way to educate people about demand response, how

02:09:34.659 --> 02:09:37.770
they can curtail in their facility, you know, and then

02:09:37.779 --> 02:09:40.430
move them on. So that was uh for example,

02:09:42.029 --> 02:09:44.199
a perspective that was captured in there.

02:09:45.869 --> 02:09:49.878
Um And then we again, this shows up in our best practices

02:09:49.890 --> 02:09:53.329
that integrating the demand response with energy efficiency

02:09:53.338 --> 02:09:56.838
did first come up in the demand response working group

02:09:57.439 --> 02:10:00.649
to the extent possible. And that was kind of a coordination

02:10:00.659 --> 02:10:04.609
point too. So, um I think our, our person from Reliant

02:10:04.619 --> 02:10:07.789
is out at the moment. Um But they made that comment

02:10:07.798 --> 02:10:11.500
of, you know, what if uh you know, the IOU

02:10:11.509 --> 02:10:14.720
program, weather rises, you know, the home and make

02:10:14.729 --> 02:10:17.750
sure that it's efficient and then passes it off, you

02:10:17.759 --> 02:10:19.989
know, gets the rep involved to get, you know, do the

02:10:20.000 --> 02:10:23.168
demand response. So that kind of coordination uh was

02:10:23.180 --> 02:10:24.329
something talked about.

02:10:26.850 --> 02:10:32.819
All right. Um That's the role of demand response that

02:10:32.829 --> 02:10:37.220
we had that really. Then we spent a full session on

02:10:37.229 --> 02:10:39.140
their best practices. The next one

02:10:42.838 --> 02:10:46.079
I need for my demand response people. So I'm trying

02:10:47.930 --> 02:10:50.619
um you were in demand response

02:10:52.128 --> 02:10:59.180
and AEP was in demand response and Xcel was in

02:10:59.189 --> 02:10:59.378
the

02:11:01.430 --> 02:11:05.189
and trying to think of what about the um

02:11:07.850 --> 02:11:10.100
Kenan the retailers here because I know that they wanna

02:11:10.109 --> 02:11:13.458
make sure they're included. And I'm just so was here

02:11:13.470 --> 02:11:17.128
this morning. And did she, did she been sitting back

02:11:17.140 --> 02:11:19.168
with you this afternoon or did I? Oh, wait, oh, there

02:11:19.329 --> 02:11:21.529
you are you, you switch places,

02:11:23.399 --> 02:11:25.079
I'm sorry, you are here.

02:11:30.168 --> 02:11:36.449
I'm sorry. I was curious about was the programs being

02:11:36.458 --> 02:11:40.720
accessible to the, to the reps so they can more fully

02:11:40.729 --> 02:11:44.390
participate came up. And if there was any agreements

02:11:44.399 --> 02:11:46.890
or resolution of that issue, I don't know if there

02:11:47.000 --> 02:11:50.659
was an agreement or necessarily too much, but I think

02:11:50.668 --> 02:11:53.439
there's some of that will never feel like we've had

02:11:53.449 --> 02:11:55.970
so many discussions in terms exactly what was in that

02:11:56.298 --> 02:11:58.899
the, the discussion that day. But I mean, s do need

02:11:58.909 --> 02:12:03.338
to be involved on that involvement. Yeah. Yeah. So

02:12:03.350 --> 02:12:06.430
I, to me that was really a message that was loud and

02:12:06.439 --> 02:12:10.649
clear and why it got integrated into the best practices

02:12:10.720 --> 02:12:15.279
And Eleanor, don't you, you represent the right? Yes

02:12:15.289 --> 02:12:19.199
Yes. So, I mean, I think this goes sort of back to

02:12:19.208 --> 02:12:23.798
the, the, the first working group where because this

02:12:23.810 --> 02:12:28.939
is a right, a regulated program, the more parameters

02:12:28.949 --> 02:12:32.229
you put on, the more goals, the more the more granular

02:12:32.239 --> 02:12:36.560
the goals, all of that, it shifts the focus away from

02:12:36.569 --> 02:12:40.128
sort of innovation and, and how to, you know, how to

02:12:40.140 --> 02:12:43.109
serve the customer best and instead makes the focus

02:12:43.119 --> 02:12:46.378
on, you know, how I get a program that meets the criteria

02:12:46.489 --> 02:12:50.909
And so I, you know, I think whether it's demand response

02:12:50.918 --> 02:12:53.208
in concert with the energy efficiency or something

02:12:53.220 --> 02:12:57.979
that, that there is not a lot of integration of, you

02:12:57.989 --> 02:13:00.159
know, the customer facing entity, which in our part

02:13:00.220 --> 02:13:04.020
of the rep to try to, you know, to try to enhance

02:13:04.369 --> 02:13:09.628
the reach to the customer. So, so I actually represented

02:13:09.640 --> 02:13:13.729
a rep position in that committee. And so this is kind

02:13:13.739 --> 02:13:18.149
of an example of how you've managed to say things very

02:13:18.159 --> 02:13:21.628
politely compared to what I said. So,

02:13:24.029 --> 02:13:28.699
so I'm just saying, I, how's that working out for you

02:13:30.109 --> 02:13:35.369
So my opinion was actually that the um commercial Load

02:13:35.378 --> 02:13:40.259
management really belongs to ERCOT that particularly

02:13:40.270 --> 02:13:43.600
given all the effort that we're going to, for example

02:13:43.609 --> 02:13:47.850
for the new capacity in the market, we're already at

02:13:47.859 --> 02:13:54.509
24% capacity and we're adding additional programs,

02:13:54.520 --> 02:13:59.149
the legislature, the PUC I want to add more gas generation

02:13:59.418 --> 02:14:03.208
So some of that peak demand response is less relevant

02:14:03.220 --> 02:14:06.680
and this is an efficiency program. So I'm a little

02:14:06.689 --> 02:14:11.838
concerned about losing that. But my point was reps

02:14:11.850 --> 02:14:16.239
are the ones that can capture the value of demand response

02:14:16.250 --> 02:14:19.869
and should be the ones because they have the commodity

02:14:19.878 --> 02:14:23.100
responsibility. And if we go to an LSE obligation,

02:14:23.109 --> 02:14:26.239
they've really got an even capacity obligation.

02:14:27.770 --> 02:14:31.180
We need to think about how to pair the program so that

02:14:31.189 --> 02:14:35.449
the utilities are giving a rebate for something, maybe

02:14:35.458 --> 02:14:39.470
like a smart device which allowed a customer maybe

02:14:39.479 --> 02:14:43.000
require a customer to get the rebate to sign up for

02:14:43.009 --> 02:14:48.100
a rep program so that you're beginning to get complimentary

02:14:48.109 --> 02:14:52.470
and synergistic kind of interaction where the market

02:14:52.479 --> 02:14:56.378
works the way it's supposed to, the utilities are doing

02:14:56.449 --> 02:14:59.739
things that make sense for them to do in the same way

02:14:59.750 --> 02:15:03.048
that the, the geographic or you called it something

02:15:03.060 --> 02:15:07.079
uh geo targeting. Um You know, this morning we were

02:15:07.088 --> 02:15:12.529
talking about demand response. It has been operated

02:15:12.539 --> 02:15:17.088
as if the capacity of the ERCOT market is what's being

02:15:17.100 --> 02:15:20.708
addressed. But that's ERCOT  job and the utilities

02:15:20.720 --> 02:15:25.128
we have to build out reliable infrastructure should

02:15:25.140 --> 02:15:28.319
be trying to target things like here he is talking

02:15:28.329 --> 02:15:32.640
about that support the infrastructure. So localized

02:15:32.649 --> 02:15:35.838
demand response incentives that could even be like

02:15:36.208 --> 02:15:37.729
in certain areas

02:15:39.430 --> 02:15:42.140
that would make a lot of sense for a TDU

02:15:42.149 --> 02:15:46.500
to be doing. So I I agree. So we have that like

02:15:46.509 --> 02:15:51.329
number one on the list and I guess on the rep point

02:15:51.949 --> 02:15:54.949
we very much I think we haven't been there. I think

02:15:54.958 --> 02:15:57.859
it's been great to have the rep participation, more

02:15:57.869 --> 02:16:00.640
coordination is needed. And that's the one that makes

02:16:00.649 --> 02:16:03.918
me so nervous because it keeps showing up as below

02:16:03.930 --> 02:16:07.449
because we reviewed the whole language together, right

02:16:07.520 --> 02:16:10.159
together. We're like, Okay, it's all there. So how

02:16:10.168 --> 02:16:13.020
do we make it happen? And I think you keep quoting

02:16:13.039 --> 02:16:16.140
right? I think it's Christina. Oh OK. Maybe it's Christina

02:16:16.149 --> 02:16:18.399
I keep quoting. Oh I, I still, I was like, no, I

02:16:18.409 --> 02:16:19.060
keep quoting

02:16:22.048 --> 02:16:26.949
but um but to me that also, so Bob offered one opinion

02:16:26.958 --> 02:16:29.838
of how the reps should do it. But to me that is

02:16:29.850 --> 02:16:35.229
again the detail to get worked out like is there some

02:16:35.239 --> 02:16:38.360
smart thermostat program, for example? Right. That's

02:16:38.370 --> 02:16:41.349
like the details to work out on how to increase that

02:16:41.360 --> 02:16:44.079
coordination with the rat. So I'm not trying to gloss

02:16:44.088 --> 02:16:47.338
over it. It's just that their different opinions. So

02:16:47.349 --> 02:16:49.588
it's more it needs to be addressed

02:16:51.308 --> 02:16:52.540
but there's work to be done.

02:16:55.149 --> 02:16:57.259
I mean, just to reiterate that, I mean, what we're

02:16:57.269 --> 02:16:58.940
trying to talk about here is things that need to be

02:16:58.950 --> 02:17:02.399
changed in the rule that is in the rule we discussed

02:17:02.409 --> 02:17:05.579
that. So the fact that it is in the rule and that

02:17:05.588 --> 02:17:08.019
if the reps wanna have that communication with the

02:17:08.030 --> 02:17:10.700
utilities, they can do that. That's not an issue that

02:17:10.709 --> 02:17:14.429
you need to identify it. It, it's an issue of this

02:17:14.440 --> 02:17:17.409
is really important, but it's a low priority. That's

02:17:17.468 --> 02:17:18.700
what I keep saying because it's

02:17:24.292 --> 02:17:25.222
so I was the

02:17:30.753 --> 02:17:34.164
well with that too. But uh but you know, put a different

02:17:34.173 --> 02:17:38.722
way. So it's in the rule but, but utilities and endeavors

02:17:38.734 --> 02:17:42.042
to all my utility friends here and elsewhere tend to

02:17:42.052 --> 02:17:45.083
behave in the ways in which they are incentivized to

02:17:45.093 --> 02:17:50.318
do by legislation or people. So the ability to do that

02:17:50.328 --> 02:17:54.009
is in the room, but there is no incentive for the 

02:17:54.019 --> 02:17:57.860
TDU for the utilities to actively engage reps who

02:17:57.870 --> 02:18:00.629
are actively engaged with the customer. We have that

02:18:00.638 --> 02:18:03.209
relationship with the customer. They get a bill from

02:18:03.218 --> 02:18:05.569
us, they get messaging from us. It comes back to the

02:18:05.579 --> 02:18:07.790
education part that I was talking about. Our company

02:18:08.229 --> 02:18:10.819
We started in California. It's a demand response company

02:18:10.829 --> 02:18:15.338
that now does retail electricity in Texas And we came

02:18:15.349 --> 02:18:19.729
here specifically to try to drive a broader acceptance

02:18:19.739 --> 02:18:23.200
among consuming pop, but we can't do the amount of

02:18:23.649 --> 02:18:26.308
We need incentives in the rules. So maybe there

02:18:26.319 --> 02:18:29.229
is a rule change. We need to be incentives in the rules

02:18:29.239 --> 02:18:34.200
that, that then transform the motivation of why the

02:18:34.209 --> 02:18:35.950
utility gets up that morning. And what are we going

02:18:35.959 --> 02:18:38.750
to accomplish? Not just can I check the box, get the

02:18:38.759 --> 02:18:41.329
right efficiency reductions or those time metrics?

02:18:41.468 --> 02:18:44.894
What can we do to drive a broader acceptance? So the

02:18:44.905 --> 02:18:48.104
rules that they extend don't preclude cooperation,

02:18:48.213 --> 02:18:50.554
but neither do they incentivize it. And that's where

02:18:50.565 --> 02:18:53.144
I would argue there needs to be a rule. Well, and the

02:18:53.155 --> 02:18:56.974
question needs to be asked, why are there not more

02:18:56.985 --> 02:19:00.364
reps involved since the original Legislation was written

02:19:00.375 --> 02:19:04.364
with reps and third parties meant to be the implementer

02:19:04.713 --> 02:19:07.854
Part of the answer is because the size of the programs

02:19:07.864 --> 02:19:11.513
are so small. So you would almost have to increase

02:19:11.524 --> 02:19:16.918
the goal or do less demand response so that there's

02:19:16.929 --> 02:19:20.819
enough money to make it interesting to reps to serve

02:19:20.829 --> 02:19:22.909
because they're going to have to scale up to serve

02:19:22.918 --> 02:19:27.588
all their customers who are trying to. So I would again

02:19:27.599 --> 02:19:30.968
so that everyone feels good about like the end objective

02:19:30.979 --> 02:19:33.909
So that was such a great point. I think that's exactly

02:19:34.668 --> 02:19:37.329
but I'm just a facilitator. Right. So that's exactly

02:19:37.338 --> 02:19:39.918
the kind of comment that I think the Commission is

02:19:39.929 --> 02:19:43.088
looking to be filed. Right. So that they understand

02:19:43.099 --> 02:19:48.649
your perspective on that of ways to have more participation

02:19:48.659 --> 02:19:51.799
and, you know, the utilities may have a very different

02:19:51.808 --> 02:19:54.638
opinion that they filed. I,

02:19:58.950 --> 02:20:03.299
that is my job. I'm just here to facilitate this session

02:20:03.308 --> 02:20:06.679
So, um, I guess that's what I would encourage is I

02:20:06.690 --> 02:20:09.739
think we've clearly identified. It's been very identified

02:20:09.750 --> 02:20:14.069
This is an important issue. There are different opinions

02:20:14.079 --> 02:20:18.250
on it. So I, you know, um we, we captured those opinions

02:20:18.259 --> 02:20:21.388
or summary table to the extent they were ex um expressed

02:20:21.399 --> 02:20:24.069
in the working group, but that was a whole new thing

02:20:24.079 --> 02:20:30.440
I had heard. So great comment, get a file. Um So yeah

02:20:30.450 --> 02:20:38.159
very good. Um All right. So on the value of demand

02:20:38.168 --> 02:20:41.079
response, this is another big one. Tina will talk about

02:20:41.088 --> 02:20:43.849
it more in her cost effectiveness too when she talks

02:20:43.860 --> 02:20:48.549
about what it costs and such. But it's right now. We're

02:20:48.558 --> 02:20:53.120
not. Okay. So if there is more TND done, right

02:20:53.129 --> 02:20:57.149
I mean, more benefits, you know, to T N D through um

02:20:57.799 --> 02:21:00.120
geo targeting or we're not, we're not recognizing that

02:21:00.129 --> 02:21:03.780
in our current structure, right? So do we need to look

02:21:03.790 --> 02:21:06.009
and I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on this because

02:21:06.019 --> 02:21:11.218
this was really taken up by program planning, but just

02:21:11.229 --> 02:21:15.200
recognizing this came up in demand response that. Ok

02:21:15.209 --> 02:21:18.569
well, how do we really value the benefit to the grant

02:21:18.579 --> 02:21:21.659
of demand response? Um And the same thing applies to

02:21:21.668 --> 02:21:25.700
energy efficiency too. So, um I think we already talked

02:21:25.709 --> 02:21:29.629
about that already came up and program goals, we worked

02:21:29.638 --> 02:21:32.750
in these working groups, but these issues on siloed

02:21:32.780 --> 02:21:37.049
of the need for um peak periods to be more flexible

02:21:37.058 --> 02:21:39.280
So you can see why that definitely came up in demand

02:21:39.290 --> 02:21:42.558
response. So, um you know, we already made that point

02:21:42.569 --> 02:21:49.530
of uh what, what was like on the weekend. So, um so

02:21:49.540 --> 02:21:53.058
this is again a program design. So what had come up

02:21:53.280 --> 02:21:57.069
on the areas of agreement on program design which ended

02:21:57.079 --> 02:22:01.899
up working its way into best practice is the fact that

02:22:02.319 --> 02:22:06.729
um there does need whether it's consistency or maybe

02:22:06.739 --> 02:22:09.168
there's other ways to an incentive, but there needs

02:22:09.179 --> 02:22:12.429
to be something that does make it easier for reps to

02:22:12.440 --> 02:22:15.579
participate that I think was something that was agreed

02:22:15.588 --> 02:22:19.218
and service provider. So like, I don't see Tim with

02:22:19.229 --> 02:22:21.909
TRC here now that, you know, you know, he's a

02:22:21.918 --> 02:22:25.000
service provider, he does a lot of the main response

02:22:25.009 --> 02:22:30.338
too. So really that need of making it such that others

02:22:30.349 --> 02:22:31.780
really can participate,

02:22:34.718 --> 02:22:38.620
keeping that flexibility too. So this was the really

02:22:38.629 --> 02:22:43.729
big one that came up too is um processes of support

02:22:43.739 --> 02:22:46.879
improvements need to be discussed. And agreed upon

02:22:46.888 --> 02:22:50.819
So, um, not getting the weeds, but everyone agreed

02:22:51.399 --> 02:22:55.950
to the point of the rights again that it's in the rule

02:22:55.959 --> 02:22:59.229
But you know, are there processes that help that happen

02:22:59.239 --> 02:23:01.009
more and again, nays are gonna be different opinions

02:23:01.019 --> 02:23:06.030
on what that should be. So, all right. So going from

02:23:06.040 --> 02:23:09.799
role of demand response and program design, anything

02:23:09.808 --> 02:23:12.519
on those top three s of areas of agreement from the

02:23:12.530 --> 02:23:17.909
demand response group. So Jeremy AEP um

02:23:19.450 --> 02:23:22.509
that I missed and that anyone else in the demand response

02:23:22.519 --> 02:23:24.918
group that oh no, Ken, you were, I keep thinking you

02:23:24.929 --> 02:23:27.638
were on program go but you were demand response. Yeah

02:23:28.519 --> 02:23:33.558
um of areas of takeaways for areas of agreement because

02:23:33.569 --> 02:23:36.040
then I have the kind of the other considerations to

02:23:36.049 --> 02:23:38.049
hit. But those are gonna have a lot of the ones we

02:23:38.058 --> 02:23:40.290
already talked about under program goals.

02:23:47.489 --> 02:23:50.218
Yes, I, yeah, I think the only thing I'd say is that

02:23:50.229 --> 02:23:54.620
you know, similar to what was said before about integrating

02:23:54.629 --> 02:23:59.049
the role and value of the DERs And now it's got to

02:23:59.058 --> 02:24:02.929
be more than just on utilities for the reps. There's

02:24:02.940 --> 02:24:06.319
a larger responsibility of educating, look about demand

02:24:06.329 --> 02:24:10.069
response and how we communicate about it and to create

02:24:10.079 --> 02:24:12.540
some consistency because we don't know what it means

02:24:12.549 --> 02:24:15.909
But when you express the value of it and, and just

02:24:15.918 --> 02:24:18.429
like anything else, it isn't just about money in your

02:24:18.440 --> 02:24:22.519
pocket, we have to communicate that we are in all this

02:24:22.530 --> 02:24:26.269
together. And when people recognize that, I think they

02:24:26.280 --> 02:24:30.159
will get that, you know, of moral value and why they

02:24:30.168 --> 02:24:33.459
need to participate and those things can be integrated

02:24:33.468 --> 02:24:36.979
by having better coordination between uh what we're

02:24:37.099 --> 02:24:40.399
all. Yeah. Yeah, I really like, you know, we really

02:24:40.409 --> 02:24:43.319
need to add some more on that, in that overarching

02:24:44.058 --> 02:24:46.968
one we talked about, you know, the value proposition

02:24:46.979 --> 02:24:51.929
but I really like adding more of that to the customer

02:24:51.940 --> 02:24:54.540
hoping that the customer understand has come up a couple

02:24:54.549 --> 02:24:57.200
of times. It's a really good point. You made that point

02:24:57.209 --> 02:25:01.540
too of, yeah, that really is a key piece. So I appreciate

02:25:01.549 --> 02:25:01.918
that.

02:25:03.519 --> 02:25:06.019
Ok, so the other considerations are going to have a

02:25:06.030 --> 02:25:08.218
lot of things we already talked about. So we already

02:25:08.229 --> 02:25:12.040
talked about that. Um There's uncertainty around the

02:25:12.049 --> 02:25:15.989
role of demand response and the energy efficiency portfolio

02:25:16.569 --> 02:25:20.519
Um We already talked about customer cost caps that

02:25:20.530 --> 02:25:23.250
a lot, especially the smaller utilities are at them

02:25:24.530 --> 02:25:27.979
And then we uh talked about, you know, again, that

02:25:27.989 --> 02:25:31.729
outreach is always a barrier and ways to do a better

02:25:31.739 --> 02:25:35.338
job of that. Um So those were kind of the same things

02:25:35.349 --> 02:25:39.280
as we had under program goals came up there. So I'm

02:25:39.290 --> 02:25:42.110
gonna move on to areas to be discussed unless we have

02:25:42.120 --> 02:25:43.569
more on areas of agreement,

02:25:45.849 --> 02:25:48.700
we're still on time. We're making it. Tina's like,

02:25:48.709 --> 02:25:50.040
don't start me late.

02:25:51.979 --> 02:25:55.808
All right, next one. All right. There we're there.

02:25:55.819 --> 02:26:00.250
Okay. Um Okay. So again, this is where we're gonna see

02:26:00.259 --> 02:26:03.718
some of the things come up. Um That PKW period

02:26:03.729 --> 02:26:06.040
absolutely needs to be discussed. We already saw it

02:26:06.049 --> 02:26:08.860
on program goals there. It is absolutely needs to be

02:26:08.870 --> 02:26:16.679
discussed that value um of how to um show the benefits

02:26:16.690 --> 02:26:19.599
whether it's to avoid a cost or in the cost effectiveness

02:26:19.610 --> 02:26:26.888
calculation. Um that increased coordination. We really

02:26:26.899 --> 02:26:29.620
talked about that. How does that happen? Really needs

02:26:29.629 --> 02:26:33.450
to be discussed? And um well, the same considerations

02:26:33.459 --> 02:26:36.459
that affect goals, there was a lot of overlap actually

02:26:36.468 --> 02:26:40.790
in those considerations and program goals and demand

02:26:40.799 --> 02:26:46.000
response because they're very much tied there. So um

02:26:46.540 --> 02:26:50.989
I think the biggest thing that's different here to

02:26:51.000 --> 02:26:55.629
work out is this is really where um that coordination

02:26:55.638 --> 02:26:59.808
with the reps came up a lot even though um so Christina

02:26:59.819 --> 02:27:02.649
was in demand response and I think you were in program

02:27:02.659 --> 02:27:05.729
planning. Oh, you were in program. OK.

02:27:08.269 --> 02:27:13.250
Oh That's what. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. OK. Um Yeah. So

02:27:13.259 --> 02:27:17.168
this is this really uh you know, came up a lot there

02:27:17.179 --> 02:27:21.409
too. So I'll make one more suggestion when you use

02:27:21.418 --> 02:27:25.679
terms like process improvement. That sounds like getting

02:27:25.690 --> 02:27:29.099
the check through the process faster. But if what you

02:27:29.110 --> 02:27:33.950
mean is program changes to be more effective, we have

02:27:33.959 --> 02:27:37.329
to use those. So that's not, it's the reason I use

02:27:37.338 --> 02:27:39.808
the term process improvement is because it's a catch

02:27:39.959 --> 02:27:43.149
all because it's not necessarily a program change.

02:27:43.159 --> 02:27:50.040
So that was one idea out there was to have, it consists

02:27:50.049 --> 02:27:53.959
of smart thermostat program, right? Other ideas were

02:27:53.968 --> 02:27:59.409
um a performance metric of reps involved that they're

02:27:59.418 --> 02:28:03.459
measured against. So I there were different ideas of

02:28:03.468 --> 02:28:06.849
ways to increase the coordination. So some of them

02:28:06.860 --> 02:28:10.479
were program changes, some of them were not. So, so

02:28:10.489 --> 02:28:15.030
in your mind, the process of uh improvements are broader

02:28:15.179 --> 02:28:21.690
not administrative s pretty broad. So I, a lot,

02:28:23.250 --> 02:28:26.588
yeah, a lot was discussed. So I'm trying to catch the

02:28:26.599 --> 02:28:31.030
fact that it was a, yeah, that it was, it was agreed

02:28:31.040 --> 02:28:34.209
on a coordination piece where, uh, I believe was the

02:28:34.218 --> 02:28:38.950
one who uh, alluded to it was, there's got to be more

02:28:38.959 --> 02:28:43.149
coordination between the rep and the utilities on the

02:28:43.159 --> 02:28:48.700
ideas of what the reps have as a, as a product or

02:28:48.709 --> 02:28:54.849
as a program. Not necessarily that there's, uh, that

02:28:54.860 --> 02:28:57.940
they had the idea, they just wanted to bridge the gap

02:28:58.099 --> 02:29:01.370
right now. There is not a communication, although there

02:29:01.379 --> 02:29:04.950
is a process, it's written there and none of those

02:29:04.959 --> 02:29:08.409
ideas have gotten to the utilities, but there wasn't

02:29:08.418 --> 02:29:12.399
a clear path for her during the communication and that's

02:29:12.409 --> 02:29:15.649
what she was looking for. They were looking for a transparent

02:29:15.659 --> 02:29:18.700
path for communication to the utilities with their

02:29:18.709 --> 02:29:22.659
ideas of DER program. So, and then we, we all agreed

02:29:22.668 --> 02:29:28.979
to have that door open. So hopefully that is the process

02:29:29.190 --> 02:29:31.989
that we're looking for. Not so much

02:29:33.509 --> 02:29:36.489
administrative side. Oh, that's gonna probably get

02:29:36.500 --> 02:29:37.299
sucked up into it

02:29:40.030 --> 02:29:42.138
and, and I, and I'd like to bring up the, you know

02:29:42.149 --> 02:29:45.338
we, we do have reps that participate in our existing

02:29:45.349 --> 02:29:48.620
programs, but when you talk about coordination, we're

02:29:48.629 --> 02:29:52.979
talking about coordination with over 100 reps, not

02:29:52.989 --> 02:29:57.200
just the top two or three in the. So, we've got to

02:29:57.209 --> 02:30:01.030
figure out a way to get all reps involved. And I think

02:30:01.040 --> 02:30:05.069
that's a bigger issue than just bridging a gap with

02:30:05.079 --> 02:30:07.649
the single point or a couple of rounds. Ok.

02:30:09.860 --> 02:30:13.790
So again, just highlighting this is an area that needs

02:30:13.799 --> 02:30:14.769
to be discussed.

02:30:17.049 --> 02:30:17.129
ROS

02:30:20.138 --> 02:30:23.168
different opinions on how I need to be addressed. But

02:30:23.610 --> 02:30:30.280
yeah. Ok. So, yeah, I don't know we're talking about

02:30:31.218 --> 02:30:34.399
and CPS customer account how much higher they are

02:30:37.349 --> 02:30:41.370
Yeah. So, um my understanding from the CPS Energy

02:30:41.379 --> 02:30:44.099
when their board of directors continued their step

02:30:44.110 --> 02:30:46.989
program, which is basically their efficiency. They

02:30:47.000 --> 02:30:51.500
said they think it costs about $3.50 a customer. I

02:30:51.530 --> 02:30:54.950
don't know what their kilowatt hour average use is

02:30:54.959 --> 02:30:57.790
to know, but I think it's around 1000. So I think that

02:30:57.799 --> 02:31:00.979
would be equivalent to 350. So they cap it and don't

02:31:00.989 --> 02:31:06.370
change it. Um I don't know that they have a true cap

02:31:06.379 --> 02:31:09.838
It's just what they, in terms of their budget in Austin

02:31:09.849 --> 02:31:12.049
Energy case. And I don't think anyone's here from Austin

02:31:12.058 --> 02:31:16.709
Energy. Uh but they have what's essential, that's

02:31:16.718 --> 02:31:18.888
part of the customer benefit charge. The customer benefit

02:31:18.899 --> 02:31:21.149
charge is, I don't know if that's what it's called

02:31:21.159 --> 02:31:23.668
It's larger because it includes the payment assistance

02:31:23.879 --> 02:31:26.280
But if you just look at the energy efficiency part

02:31:26.290 --> 02:31:31.069
of it, I think this last year it was about $2.30 for

02:31:31.099 --> 02:31:37.388
1000 somewhere that, um, but you know, they more or

02:31:37.399 --> 02:31:41.819
less meet a 1% goal. Now, do they really need it? You

02:31:41.829 --> 02:31:45.489
know, that's a wider question. But yeah,

02:31:47.638 --> 02:31:50.918
they include a lot of different types of programs and

02:31:50.929 --> 02:31:53.338
I did steal that from program goals because customer

02:31:53.349 --> 02:31:56.209
cap as you know, excel as one at it kept coming up

02:31:56.218 --> 02:31:59.468
in demand response. I was like, well, we already had

02:31:59.479 --> 02:32:03.418
that information provided. So, but I would, I would

02:32:03.429 --> 02:32:08.325
definitely, this is rust of numbers probably be best

02:32:08.334 --> 02:32:09.334
to get it from CPS.

02:32:12.183 --> 02:32:13.915
So I was just,

02:32:16.093 --> 02:32:16.364
you know,

02:32:19.194 --> 02:32:24.274
um So, all right, so what um so I'm gonna ask everyone

02:32:24.284 --> 02:32:28.513
to please be back really? Like we have two more working

02:32:28.524 --> 02:32:33.610
groups to get and I'll wrap up. So please be back ready

02:32:33.620 --> 02:32:36.808
to go in your seats. I'm gonna say seven minutes till

02:32:36.819 --> 02:32:39.129
three. So I have five minutes till three. We're actually

02:32:39.138 --> 02:32:39.549
going.

02:32:43.190 --> 02:32:47.200
So not for like 2:55.

02:32:51.870 --> 02:32:51.929
Sorry,

02:33:00.308 --> 02:33:00.319
I,

02:33:08.540 --> 02:33:12.588
Okay. Well, we're all back and I know I'm between you

02:33:12.599 --> 02:33:17.099
and the road. (item:10:38578, Initial remarks to start off Working Group Progress Updates) So I will put my, uh, statements in line

02:33:17.110 --> 02:33:20.349
with our presentation. But I think the important thing

02:33:20.360 --> 02:33:22.739
to point out is a lot of the things that we've already

02:33:22.750 --> 02:33:26.168
heard in the last two working groups that I'm gonna

02:33:26.179 --> 02:33:29.500
be presenting first will be the low income and underserved

02:33:29.509 --> 02:33:32.049
segment. Um You're going to hear some very similar

02:33:32.058 --> 02:33:35.729
trends, things that, that similar topics, key issues

02:33:35.819 --> 02:33:40.429
and, um, between the low income and the planning or

02:33:40.440 --> 02:33:43.418
program planning working groups, there were a lot of

02:33:43.429 --> 02:33:47.979
similarities of, of discussion items. And so I have

02:33:47.989 --> 02:33:49.489
my little cheat sheets because I wanna make sure I

02:33:49.500 --> 02:33:52.530
present the right one in the right group. But uh so

02:33:52.540 --> 02:33:54.819
we're gonna go through like we did in the last two

02:33:54.829 --> 02:33:57.729
sessions with Lark. Uh You can see the key issues that

02:33:57.739 --> 02:34:00.940
we've talked about uh during the working group. (item:10.1:38578, Low-Income/Underserved and Program Planning) This

02:34:00.950 --> 02:34:03.500
is low income and under served just to make sure I

02:34:03.509 --> 02:34:07.138
didn't lose anyone there. And so you can see there's

02:34:07.149 --> 02:34:09.729
a lot of them, we had a lot of high priority items

02:34:09.739 --> 02:34:12.829
meaning we have, we anticipate there would be rule

02:34:12.838 --> 02:34:17.409
changes that would be needed in order for the suggested

02:34:17.418 --> 02:34:20.409
perspectives to be implemented and then the medium

02:34:20.418 --> 02:34:23.259
and the low priorities. So with that being said, we're

02:34:23.269 --> 02:34:26.909
going to move on to the areas of agreement. These aren't

02:34:26.918 --> 02:34:29.860
they look very similar. And uh what I'd like to point

02:34:29.870 --> 02:34:32.729
out though is these are areas of agreement just like

02:34:32.739 --> 02:34:37.030
with Lark. Uh but they also might be the same key issues

02:34:37.040 --> 02:34:40.989
may also appear in the uh area is yet to be discussed

02:34:41.000 --> 02:34:44.049
for a different reason or maybe a similar reason, just

02:34:44.058 --> 02:34:47.149
expand it in a little bit different way. So the first

02:34:47.159 --> 02:34:50.989
item that we area of agreement we had on this is around

02:34:51.000 --> 02:34:55.399
uh the hard to reach definition. Uh Sometimes a lot

02:34:55.409 --> 02:34:58.329
of times people like to tie low income and hard to

02:34:58.338 --> 02:35:02.668
reach together. Uh, there really is no, uh, not a defined

02:35:02.679 --> 02:35:06.519
definition for low income, but it's typically tied

02:35:06.530 --> 02:35:10.909
to similar to the federal weather weatherization requirements

02:35:10.918 --> 02:35:13.769
But for hard to reach currently, it reads something

02:35:13.780 --> 02:35:18.019
like, uh, households with, uh, an income, household

02:35:18.030 --> 02:35:22.190
income of at or below 200% of federal poverty level

02:35:22.690 --> 02:35:26.370
And as we were talking about that, there was a lot

02:35:26.379 --> 02:35:29.019
of agreement that, that definition probably needs to

02:35:29.030 --> 02:35:33.239
be expanded, uh, or broadened and there's many different

02:35:33.250 --> 02:35:36.729
ideas of how that might happen or what, what that is

02:35:36.739 --> 02:35:39.838
But the goal and the reason why everyone, why there

02:35:39.849 --> 02:35:42.599
was such a level of agreement was because there's a

02:35:42.610 --> 02:35:44.918
lot of people that are out on the fringes, meaning

02:35:44.929 --> 02:35:48.149
if we're using that 200% poverty level of day, there

02:35:48.159 --> 02:35:52.879
are people that just barely, uh, um, just are disqualified

02:35:52.888 --> 02:35:57.159
because of that. There are others that, uh, for example

02:35:57.168 --> 02:36:02.638
uh, it doesn't really define who, what is hard to reach

02:36:02.649 --> 02:36:08.159
in. And does that include just, uh, low income. We'd

02:36:08.168 --> 02:36:11.959
like to be able to add, uh, opportunities for moderate

02:36:11.968 --> 02:36:15.200
income. Uh, could we add rural or there are a lot of

02:36:15.209 --> 02:36:18.299
different areas? But the overall agreement was that

02:36:18.308 --> 02:36:20.838
we should expand that and broaden it because it would

02:36:20.849 --> 02:36:23.319
allow us to serve more customers. And as we've been

02:36:23.329 --> 02:36:27.750
talking about all this time is I believe Ken pointed

02:36:27.759 --> 02:36:30.433
out, you know, the goal, obviously, we talked about

02:36:30.444 --> 02:36:33.735
this is we really want to serve more customers and

02:36:33.745 --> 02:36:36.075
do it in a way and make sure that we can cover

02:36:36.084 --> 02:36:39.474
the territories that are all the entire state of Texas

02:36:39.485 --> 02:36:43.174
no matter what utility it is and be able to do it

02:36:43.183 --> 02:36:45.854
for the good of the customer. Because remembering as

02:36:45.864 --> 02:36:50.125
Lark said earlier, these are ratepayer rate payers

02:36:50.134 --> 02:36:53.620
pay for these programs. So in addition to that, uh

02:36:53.629 --> 02:36:58.338
for the definitions of, we also said, uh it's important

02:36:58.349 --> 02:37:00.629
all these little aspects that we're gonna talk about

02:37:00.638 --> 02:37:03.638
they're all interrelated, interdependent of each other

02:37:03.659 --> 02:37:07.909
So if we're gonna make a change to the H um sorry

02:37:07.918 --> 02:37:09.440
the HTR, I hope you don't mind if I use

02:37:09.450 --> 02:37:15.269
that acronym. Uh But hard to reach uh is that it's

02:37:15.280 --> 02:37:17.899
gonna impact the goals today. There's a low income

02:37:17.909 --> 02:37:21.829
goal and there's a HTR goal uh that uh each

02:37:21.838 --> 02:37:26.209
of the utilities um are required to follow and we want

02:37:26.218 --> 02:37:29.638
to make sure that everyone keeps that in mind is when

02:37:29.649 --> 02:37:32.759
we look at expanding or broadening, broadening that

02:37:32.769 --> 02:37:37.009
definition for HTR is that we think about how that may

02:37:37.019 --> 02:37:42.319
impact goals. And it was critical for all the participants

02:37:42.329 --> 02:37:45.750
in the working group that, that really, that looking

02:37:45.759 --> 02:37:49.440
at that before making the change in the definition

02:37:49.519 --> 02:37:52.579
to really investigate how would that impact goals.

02:37:54.239 --> 02:37:57.530
And then the flexibility, flexibility was something

02:37:57.540 --> 02:38:00.888
in both of these working groups that everyone was like

02:38:00.899 --> 02:38:05.759
Okay. And, and as we go through this process, we need

02:38:05.769 --> 02:38:09.610
to make sure that everything has flexibility and having

02:38:09.620 --> 02:38:13.750
that flexibility in the uh HTR definition is to ensure

02:38:13.759 --> 02:38:18.979
that we're not going to single out or require one utility

02:38:18.989 --> 02:38:22.120
to do something that another utility is doing that

02:38:22.129 --> 02:38:25.838
may not be necessary or may not work in the same way

02:38:25.929 --> 02:38:29.399
for the other utilities. So we want to ensure that

02:38:29.409 --> 02:38:32.679
wherever we were looking at this landing, as far as

02:38:32.690 --> 02:38:36.440
the H T R definition goes is that it allowed for flexibility

02:38:36.450 --> 02:38:40.718
so that it was it worked for all utilities and they

02:38:40.729 --> 02:38:43.588
were able to adjust it based on their needs for their

02:38:43.599 --> 02:38:44.679
service territories.

02:38:47.319 --> 02:38:50.168
Any comments, thoughts, anything that for the people

02:38:50.179 --> 02:38:53.308
that were on the working group, that that's what we

02:38:53.319 --> 02:38:55.870
did really, that that wasn't the area of agreement

02:38:55.879 --> 02:38:57.729
that we were really uh trying to get to.

02:39:02.058 --> 02:39:06.058
So cost effectiveness testing. So the important part

02:39:06.069 --> 02:39:10.399
to understand for this working group is because the

02:39:10.409 --> 02:39:14.370
program planning working group was uh going to address

02:39:14.379 --> 02:39:17.829
avoided costs when we talked about cost effectiveness

02:39:18.200 --> 02:39:21.019
You know, we tried to keep, avoided cost over on the

02:39:21.030 --> 02:39:25.200
other side of the table. Um, we, we really looked at

02:39:25.209 --> 02:39:29.168
it for trying, we tried to talk only about cost effectiveness

02:39:29.468 --> 02:39:32.049
independently, which we all know, you really can't

02:39:32.058 --> 02:39:34.129
do that too easily because you can't do it without

02:39:34.138 --> 02:39:37.259
avoided costs. But we tried to keep most of that discussion

02:39:37.269 --> 02:39:40.088
we had discussion around, avoided costs, but we tried

02:39:40.099 --> 02:39:43.399
to keep most of that in another working group. So when

02:39:43.409 --> 02:39:49.239
we talked about cost effectiveness, uh the um the working

02:39:49.250 --> 02:39:52.979
group and stuff came as well as other working groups

02:39:52.989 --> 02:39:56.860
is that changing from a program level cost effectiveness

02:39:56.870 --> 02:40:00.769
to a portfolio level, cost effectiveness would really

02:40:00.780 --> 02:40:04.599
be beneficial to this, these segments specifically

02:40:04.610 --> 02:40:09.200
and would allow for additional um innovation and programs

02:40:09.209 --> 02:40:13.110
and it would allow for maybe bundling of, of measures

02:40:13.120 --> 02:40:17.679
that won't otherwise necessarily be able to be included

02:40:18.000 --> 02:40:22.918
Um But it was definitely an area that transitioning

02:40:22.929 --> 02:40:28.599
from a program level to a portfolio level, high high

02:40:28.610 --> 02:40:31.250
agreement there. I'm not really sure there's anyone

02:40:31.259 --> 02:40:33.519
that did agree with it, but I don't have that. Exactly

02:40:33.530 --> 02:40:36.308
But I'm pretty sure that's right. And I think the biggest

02:40:36.319 --> 02:40:39.558
part here is because it was that expansion of the measure

02:40:39.569 --> 02:40:43.519
mix was another part of it. That was really something

02:40:43.530 --> 02:40:47.218
that many of the utilities as well as other stakeholders

02:40:47.229 --> 02:40:51.718
discussed as far as that was really an area that through

02:40:51.870 --> 02:40:54.870
bringing in a change like this would allow for an expanded

02:40:54.879 --> 02:40:59.418
mix of measures. Uh When it, when we talked about avoided

02:40:59.429 --> 02:41:03.819
costs, uh obviously for the low income programs, the

02:41:03.829 --> 02:41:09.959
savings investment ratios use or SIR. Um and they're

02:41:09.968 --> 02:41:14.009
obviously we got a little deep in the weeds here. Uh

02:41:14.019 --> 02:41:16.159
But it was something that we thought was important

02:41:16.168 --> 02:41:21.190
to include in, in this uh working group as well because

02:41:21.200 --> 02:41:25.829
uh today, utilities do a calculation of the avoided

02:41:25.838 --> 02:41:32.000
retail energy uh cost. Um And so does EM&B

02:41:32.009 --> 02:41:36.790
Um and sometimes those don't necessarily agree and

02:41:36.799 --> 02:41:40.229
that then causes problems when your performance of

02:41:40.239 --> 02:41:43.370
your human being, uh evaluation results come back and

02:41:43.379 --> 02:41:47.690
there's differences. So the we the working group really

02:41:47.700 --> 02:41:51.509
thought it was important that we at least establish a

02:41:51.519 --> 02:41:57.360
wish a common methodology and a common um time frame

02:41:57.370 --> 02:42:03.700
for that to be for uh sorry, avoided cost uh for um

02:42:03.709 --> 02:42:08.569
sorry retail energy to be calculated. And that, that

02:42:08.579 --> 02:42:13.500
then was used by all parties. So instead of every utility

02:42:13.509 --> 02:42:16.509
may be calculating that themselves uh that we would

02:42:16.519 --> 02:42:20.329
have a common, common methodology, it would be calculated

02:42:20.338 --> 02:42:23.918
Maybe we decide who was going to calculate it uh and

02:42:23.929 --> 02:42:27.379
then be shared and be used throughout the entire year

02:42:27.388 --> 02:42:32.049
by all parties no matter if that's the utility um stakeholders

02:42:32.058 --> 02:42:35.120
or the EM&B. And that would eliminate a lot

02:42:35.129 --> 02:42:40.679
of issues. Um Yes, can I ask a point of clarification

02:42:40.690 --> 02:42:43.909
You're talking about the using of the usage of the

02:42:43.918 --> 02:42:47.399
avoided retail energy cost. If this is specific to

02:42:47.409 --> 02:42:51.079
the SIR, not anything to do with the utility cost

02:42:51.250 --> 02:42:55.338
Exactly. Exactly. Yes. On the SIR only, yes, nothing

02:42:55.349 --> 02:42:59.019
else. On the other side, you si stand for savings and

02:42:59.030 --> 02:43:00.110
investment ratio.

02:43:01.620 --> 02:43:03.099
this is so

02:43:05.250 --> 02:43:09.479
did that clear it up? Sorry. Ok, I just wanted to reiterate

02:43:09.540 --> 02:43:14.329
to because we do have a consistent avoided cost of

02:43:14.338 --> 02:43:18.599
energy and cost of demand for calculation the portfolio

02:43:18.610 --> 02:43:23.250
And this is to SIR only. Yes, yes, definitely

02:43:23.259 --> 02:43:26.149
And that's what I was trying to get up front. Uh But

02:43:26.159 --> 02:43:29.558
yes, we we'll get to that part too, that will get ok

02:43:29.579 --> 02:43:35.168
to avoid a cost on the other side. Um And then sort

02:43:35.179 --> 02:43:37.668
of one more little piece that we got into our discussion

02:43:37.679 --> 02:43:39.829
here about avoided costs with the two you thought was

02:43:39.838 --> 02:43:44.280
important is today there is an option uh as far as

02:43:44.569 --> 02:43:49.479
avoided cost goes uh on the UCT

02:43:49.489 --> 02:43:55.069
side of it is um whether or not uh sorry, uh 

02:43:55.079 --> 02:43:58.120
TND uh transmission distribution avoided cost should

02:43:58.129 --> 02:44:04.549
be uh included or not. And um so we, we talked about

02:44:04.558 --> 02:44:06.388
that a little bit not going to go into a lot of

02:44:06.399 --> 02:44:08.620
detail there because we sort of cut that off. But what

02:44:08.629 --> 02:44:13.780
we did, we did talk about is that if there are changes

02:44:13.790 --> 02:44:17.290
that are going to be made to avoid it costs capacity

02:44:17.299 --> 02:44:22.290
and energy that the non ERCOT utilities really wanted

02:44:22.299 --> 02:44:26.500
to voice that. It was important that today they have

02:44:26.509 --> 02:44:30.860
the option of using their own TND uh voided cost

02:44:30.870 --> 02:44:33.489
It's not on the ERCOT side, but on the non ERCOT side

02:44:33.808 --> 02:44:35.549
And they really thought that that was important that

02:44:35.558 --> 02:44:39.388
it stayed and that we had already did our avoided costs

02:44:39.399 --> 02:44:43.149
on uh in the program planning session. And that really

02:44:43.159 --> 02:44:47.209
did not come up in that conversation. So that's why

02:44:47.218 --> 02:44:49.929
we brought it up in here and their seat even though

02:44:49.940 --> 02:44:55.040
it was a non ERCOT utility um that brought that up

02:44:55.159 --> 02:44:57.860
there was a level of agreement and that seemed to make

02:44:57.870 --> 02:45:00.759
sense with the perspective that was given to us.

02:45:02.479 --> 02:45:05.579
Uh Another area of agreement is about, we're talking

02:45:05.588 --> 02:45:10.329
about uh serving under underserved communities and

02:45:10.338 --> 02:45:14.610
I'm gonna start with that. We, when we got to this

02:45:14.620 --> 02:45:17.649
uh before we got here, we were talking about identification

02:45:17.659 --> 02:45:21.009
of underserved uh segments. And how is that done with

02:45:21.019 --> 02:45:24.979
the utilities? And what's what type of, uh what do

02:45:24.989 --> 02:45:28.968
they already have identified as underserved? And, and

02:45:29.569 --> 02:45:33.030
there, obviously, the common one that we can talk about

02:45:33.040 --> 02:45:37.159
is rule. OK. And that there's a, there are parts of

02:45:37.190 --> 02:45:41.440
uh the utilities that also other segments of the utility

02:45:41.450 --> 02:45:44.888
shared with us. Uh But think about multifamily, think

02:45:44.899 --> 02:45:50.759
about small business. Um, rule was already included

02:45:50.769 --> 02:45:54.209
Those are some of the common items that were that common

02:45:54.218 --> 02:45:56.729
other segments that were brought up. But as part of

02:45:56.739 --> 02:45:59.459
that, we also talked about how difficult it is and

02:45:59.468 --> 02:46:03.690
that really not having a, having a definition tied

02:46:03.700 --> 02:46:08.338
to underserve um may, may make by not having that,

02:46:08.549 --> 02:46:12.704
that, that may why it is more difficult for people

02:46:12.713 --> 02:46:17.013
to understand who, who is being served when we talk

02:46:17.024 --> 02:46:21.463
about underserved communities Or is it only low income

02:46:21.614 --> 02:46:24.854
And you know that sometimes it gets limited and then

02:46:24.864 --> 02:46:28.114
the view that is given to the utilities or upon this

02:46:28.125 --> 02:46:31.784
placed upon the two utilities is that it's only about

02:46:31.793 --> 02:46:34.065
low income and that's not the intention hard to reach

02:46:34.075 --> 02:46:39.110
is really intended to be broader than that. So um when

02:46:39.120 --> 02:46:44.370
we through that discussion, the, if we put a definition

02:46:44.379 --> 02:46:49.239
out, a definition is necessary for underserved communities

02:46:49.379 --> 02:46:52.870
then the working group really wanted to make sure that

02:46:52.879 --> 02:46:57.569
we streamlined the process if income was going to be

02:46:57.579 --> 02:47:01.250
a qualification for that definition. So for example

02:47:01.259 --> 02:47:05.325
if we said, must have a uh uh a household income of

02:47:05.334 --> 02:47:10.004
300% or less. Okay of federal poverty um then they

02:47:10.013 --> 02:47:13.704
wanted to make sure that we took that everyone understood

02:47:13.713 --> 02:47:18.513
that the key to this is streamlining income verification

02:47:18.905 --> 02:47:23.405
Okay. We had many different thoughts about that. Uh And

02:47:23.415 --> 02:47:26.155
that you might see that come up here later, but uh

02:47:26.860 --> 02:47:30.860
it is really a key factor there that a lot of times

02:47:30.870 --> 02:47:36.229
that the reason areas are being uh are considered underserved

02:47:36.239 --> 02:47:39.569
is for the fact that there's this income verification

02:47:39.579 --> 02:47:44.700
process that may be a detriment to getting participant

02:47:44.709 --> 02:47:47.250
for not just the fact of going through that process

02:47:47.338 --> 02:47:50.500
but maybe for customers actually feeling comfortable

02:47:50.509 --> 02:47:52.940
or having trust in where that information is going

02:47:52.950 --> 02:47:56.200
to be used or how it's going to be used. So streamlining

02:47:56.209 --> 02:47:59.899
the income validation process is something that there

02:47:59.909 --> 02:48:03.929
is definitely an area was definitely an area of agreement

02:48:09.250 --> 02:48:13.808
Next slide, I'm sorry, got my head turned. I remember

02:48:14.280 --> 02:48:18.870
OK, so couple more areas of agreement. So collaboration

02:48:18.879 --> 02:48:23.308
uh with part uh through partnerships. Uh First I say

02:48:23.319 --> 02:48:27.888
there are many instances and examples of several of

02:48:27.899 --> 02:48:31.668
opportunities that of uh collaboration and partnerships

02:48:31.679 --> 02:48:35.079
going on. That's with uh the some of the agencies.

02:48:35.088 --> 02:48:39.829
If that's with uh uh permitting offices for the city

02:48:39.838 --> 02:48:42.519
If working with different cities, there's just so many

02:48:42.530 --> 02:48:45.679
different ones, but it is, there are, there are opportunities

02:48:45.690 --> 02:48:49.489
out there today, but it was an area agreement that

02:48:49.500 --> 02:48:53.218
there's, there's opportunity for this to be expanded

02:48:53.769 --> 02:48:57.679
And um I actually even looking at at organizations

02:48:57.690 --> 02:49:00.690
that are not like the typical organizations that you

02:49:00.700 --> 02:49:04.579
would think about uh partnering with. It may be um

02:49:05.329 --> 02:49:10.009
uh uh school programs, it may and you can say we do

02:49:10.019 --> 02:49:12.700
a lot of school programs. But there were some examples

02:49:12.709 --> 02:49:16.290
for example, working with some high schools that had

02:49:16.468 --> 02:49:20.819
uh special uh dollars grants that were giving to them

02:49:20.959 --> 02:49:24.429
And they, they wanted to be able to be partnered with

02:49:24.440 --> 02:49:28.250
us to sort of use the utility program to help uh do

02:49:28.259 --> 02:49:32.069
assessments and things like that. Um But the point

02:49:32.079 --> 02:49:34.099
that I'm trying to bring here with this is that there's

02:49:34.110 --> 02:49:38.929
opportunities to all the working group members felt

02:49:38.940 --> 02:49:44.649
that yes, there's opportunities for considered uh increased

02:49:44.659 --> 02:49:48.808
coordination or collaboration with uh or partnerships

02:49:49.780 --> 02:49:53.940
Uh But they're also to understand that there also are

02:49:53.950 --> 02:49:58.259
when you bring, bring these organizations in uh with

02:49:58.269 --> 02:50:01.099
the utilities, there can be some barriers that are

02:50:01.110 --> 02:50:04.429
that exist and we can't just look past those barriers

02:50:04.440 --> 02:50:08.750
but we need to really work through them to ensure that

02:50:08.829 --> 02:50:13.668
um the collaboration can be as successful as possible

02:50:13.679 --> 02:50:18.360
because uh there's competing priorities, uh there's

02:50:18.370 --> 02:50:22.049
timing of projects for. So currently the one year program

02:50:22.058 --> 02:50:27.129
cycle might be a barrier for some because of the length

02:50:27.138 --> 02:50:30.370
of time it may take for a project actually to get started

02:50:30.379 --> 02:50:33.929
and staffing might be an issue. So, so many different

02:50:33.940 --> 02:50:38.924
things, but it was an area of agreement that with collaboration

02:50:38.933 --> 02:50:42.584
when we think about this or start or want to do this

02:50:42.593 --> 02:50:46.375
we also need to really identify barriers that exist

02:50:46.384 --> 02:50:49.644
up front to be successful with that collaboration uh

02:50:49.655 --> 02:50:51.584
through the through the process,

02:50:53.620 --> 02:50:58.120
another area of the utilization of other funding. So

02:50:58.129 --> 02:51:00.319
of course, this is a big deal. I mean, we hear about

02:51:00.329 --> 02:51:03.319
this topic all the time. With the Inflation Reduction

02:51:03.329 --> 02:51:07.190
Act, the Jobs Act. There are so many things with that

02:51:07.200 --> 02:51:09.870
but also today, there's a whole lot of other things

02:51:09.879 --> 02:51:12.379
I mean, this morning we talked with PACE talking with

02:51:12.399 --> 02:51:15.569
us, we know that green buildings, I mean, there's all

02:51:15.579 --> 02:51:19.370
kinds of other options of other funding that exist

02:51:19.579 --> 02:51:22.838
but it's the utilization of that that is happening

02:51:22.849 --> 02:51:26.459
too also today. Uh It's not like it's nonexistent,

02:51:26.468 --> 02:51:31.019
but uh there are opportunities to expand that. And

02:51:31.030 --> 02:51:37.780
when we talk specifically about the IRA money, uh there

02:51:37.790 --> 02:51:41.979
were some concerns out there in one as it was stated

02:51:41.989 --> 02:51:45.250
earlier, we know parts of it, but there's a lot of

02:51:45.259 --> 02:51:47.489
unknowns of what's gonna, what those programs are gonna

02:51:47.500 --> 02:51:50.099
look like. Are they really going to be complimentary

02:51:50.138 --> 02:51:52.349
that we're hoping they are that that's how it's all

02:51:52.360 --> 02:51:55.343
gonna work. I think that's people's attention, but

02:51:55.405 --> 02:51:58.683
we haven't seen it yet. So until we actually see that

02:51:59.134 --> 02:52:02.745
but we also want to make sure that if we would like

02:52:02.754 --> 02:52:05.933
that opportunity for that collaboration to occur there

02:52:05.944 --> 02:52:10.543
too, in the develop of those to ensure that we can

02:52:11.019 --> 02:52:15.308
avoid having new barriers created. And as as through

02:52:15.319 --> 02:52:18.968
that conversation, it was brought up too, there's already

02:52:18.979 --> 02:52:23.040
some questions in regards to like tax credits for low

02:52:23.049 --> 02:52:28.989
income, the low income tax credits. And the example

02:52:29.000 --> 02:52:31.610
was given that there's a requirement to have a tax

02:52:31.620 --> 02:52:36.049
liability, is that gonna work for all low income uh

02:52:36.058 --> 02:52:40.668
recipients or are they really gonna have a tax liability

02:52:40.679 --> 02:52:43.468
that meets, that's gonna allow them to participate

02:52:43.610 --> 02:52:45.909
But we'll see that and work through that. But those

02:52:45.918 --> 02:52:49.780
were definitely tax liability mean you owe taxes. Yes

02:52:50.338 --> 02:52:55.459
Yes. Sorry. Thanks for the IRAs question

02:52:55.468 --> 02:52:58.950
there. Uh So, you know, that, that may be a barrier

02:52:58.959 --> 02:53:02.149
that was an unintentional barrier. But those are the

02:53:02.159 --> 02:53:05.218
kind of things that when we're looking at utilization

02:53:05.338 --> 02:53:08.629
we believe it's really, so there's opportunities there

02:53:08.638 --> 02:53:13.899
something to pursue. Uh and to, to complement the program

02:53:13.909 --> 02:53:18.099
as complement the utility programs as we move forward

02:53:21.829 --> 02:53:27.319
Any questions on uh sorry Clark, uh any

02:53:27.329 --> 02:53:30.138
questions on or phone a friend out there, anybody that

02:53:30.149 --> 02:53:33.088
was on the working group of any additional discussion

02:53:33.099 --> 02:53:36.569
in regards to the areas of agreement, just a quick

02:53:36.579 --> 02:53:40.709
question about how we do things now when a utility

02:53:41.179 --> 02:53:46.159
uses ratepayer money, but then collaborates with another

02:53:46.168 --> 02:53:49.968
source of funding like weatherization dollars to get

02:53:49.979 --> 02:53:52.959
more bang for their buck. How do we treat that? Now

02:53:52.968 --> 02:53:56.509
do we just, is it just done on a percentage like you

02:53:56.519 --> 02:53:59.440
spend a million dollars and then you're, you're combining

02:53:59.450 --> 02:54:02.360
it with a million dollars from ideally weatherization

02:54:03.259 --> 02:54:07.409
and you get this this much savings, do you just do

02:54:07.440 --> 02:54:11.838
the half or does it not work that way it hits by

02:54:12.360 --> 02:54:13.790
the measure that are? So

02:54:21.110 --> 02:54:23.009
maybe you want to say that a little bit louder. They

02:54:23.019 --> 02:54:25.218
we could hear that. Is it just your response to us

02:54:26.799 --> 02:54:29.909
I, I just was telling Cyrus that it would be, uh, by

02:54:29.918 --> 02:54:32.479
the measures that are actually in. Right. And it's

02:54:32.489 --> 02:54:36.479
the energy saving team from there. It's not like it's

02:54:36.489 --> 02:54:39.610
not tight money, more per measure. And then

02:54:41.968 --> 02:54:43.909
any other utilities

02:54:45.620 --> 02:54:49.808
and our targeted low income program, uh, we specifically

02:54:49.819 --> 02:54:53.780
address which measures that we'll pay on. And so as

02:54:53.790 --> 02:54:57.209
the agencies go out and do various projects, they'll

02:54:57.218 --> 02:55:00.718
allocate the measures that we want to our programs

02:55:00.729 --> 02:55:01.739
and then allocate the remain.

02:55:05.709 --> 02:55:09.209
I just don't want to speak for. My point is if there's

02:55:09.218 --> 02:55:12.269
a way if, if there's a way to give credit where you

02:55:12.280 --> 02:55:15.579
guys collaborate with existing funding that still leads

02:55:15.588 --> 02:55:17.459
to savings for customers, again, what we care about

02:55:17.468 --> 02:55:22.079
is the results. So if we want to credit you guys more

02:55:22.088 --> 02:55:24.879
for your part of the money that gets the savings more

02:55:24.888 --> 02:55:28.769
than the other part of the money, I mean, you know

02:55:28.780 --> 02:55:29.929
let's be flexible,

02:55:34.468 --> 02:55:36.599
but I don't know if any, if you need any changes to

02:55:36.690 --> 02:55:38.599
do that or that you can already do

02:55:40.759 --> 02:55:44.218
what kind of credit. Well, so, so if, if, if there's

02:55:44.229 --> 02:55:49.409
a total project that costs four million and we can

02:55:49.418 --> 02:55:53.690
um front Load the rate payer part of it where you guys

02:55:53.700 --> 02:55:58.049
are spending two million so that you get more credit

02:55:58.690 --> 02:56:01.530
to meet your goals. Maybe that's a way, you know, see

02:56:01.540 --> 02:56:07.388
what I'm saying, maybe that's a way, um, as assigning

02:56:07.399 --> 02:56:11.959
the ratepayer part of the money, um, to the, to the

02:56:12.030 --> 02:56:15.558
larger energy savings, whether it's peak demand savings

02:56:15.569 --> 02:56:20.110
or energy efficiency savings, maybe that's a way to

02:56:20.120 --> 02:56:25.519
use federal funds in a way that, um, you know, kind

02:56:25.530 --> 02:56:27.739
of protects ratepayers, but also allows you to achieve

02:56:27.750 --> 02:56:29.069
those bigger goals.

02:56:30.638 --> 02:56:33.459
And I don't have that already. We, we kind of do that

02:56:33.468 --> 02:56:37.250
now ru in that, you know, we're only allowed to incentivize

02:56:37.259 --> 02:56:40.019
those measures that are in the TRM generally speaking

02:56:40.030 --> 02:56:43.459
right? And, and so we'll look at those and see what

02:56:43.509 --> 02:56:46.409
on a particular project, what's available in the 

02:56:46.418 --> 02:56:50.459
TRM and then utilize and allocate those to the that

02:56:50.468 --> 02:56:53.679
project. So, and then the remainder, because there's

02:56:53.690 --> 02:56:56.819
more flexibility in the DOE programs, the remainder

02:56:56.829 --> 02:56:59.110
of those may go order the BOE.

02:57:03.099 --> 02:57:05.888
Just a couple of questions and I, I don't know if there's

02:57:05.899 --> 02:57:09.129
even a good answer to these, but it seems like the

02:57:09.200 --> 02:57:11.979
as far as the low income question, I, I'm wondering

02:57:11.989 --> 02:57:16.319
if any utility that is undefined, um if anybody uses

02:57:16.329 --> 02:57:19.829
instead of just a percentage of, of poverty or whatever

02:57:19.849 --> 02:57:23.269
um I think it's called energy burden households or

02:57:23.280 --> 02:57:25.649
whatever, where it's like you measure how much they're

02:57:25.659 --> 02:57:29.750
spending on energy uh uh versus their income, which

02:57:29.759 --> 02:57:32.509
is actually more accurate to kind of give you an idea

02:57:32.519 --> 02:57:36.579
of who would be better targets for energy efficiency

02:57:36.588 --> 02:57:38.790
And then, so somebody can answer that question maybe

02:57:38.959 --> 02:57:41.668
But the second one would be the question about the

02:57:41.679 --> 02:57:45.290
portfolio going to the cost effectiveness of the portfolio

02:57:45.299 --> 02:57:48.579
Is that something that needs uh a rule change or a

02:57:48.588 --> 02:57:51.700
law change in order to go to that level? Because I

02:57:51.709 --> 02:57:56.259
mean, I don't see any policy, you know, best practices

02:57:56.269 --> 02:57:58.218
point of view. I don't see any reason not to go to

02:57:58.229 --> 02:58:01.399
the portfolio. I'm glad to support that, but I don't

02:58:01.409 --> 02:58:04.638
know where that change needs to happen. It's a real

02:58:04.860 --> 02:58:09.780
change. And I'm just gonna, she is representing the

02:58:09.790 --> 02:58:12.989
low income under serve segments in my program goal

02:58:13.000 --> 02:58:17.399
group. We had stakeholders who felt that programs needed

02:58:17.409 --> 02:58:20.429
to stand on their own. And their perspective was it

02:58:20.440 --> 02:58:23.329
needs to be the program level. So I just wanna

02:58:25.989 --> 02:58:28.329
in that working group, there was broad consensus in

02:58:28.338 --> 02:58:31.558
my program because there was not so just representing

02:58:31.959 --> 02:58:35.168
all the perspectives. So I see people shaking their

02:58:35.179 --> 02:58:38.638
heads at me who are like, wait, yeah, and there was

02:58:38.649 --> 02:58:40.569
I mean, that's the whole thing. Remember this is from

02:58:40.579 --> 02:58:44.218
this working group and your first question when we

02:58:44.229 --> 02:58:48.110
get to our next slide, you'll yes that you'll see that

02:58:48.120 --> 02:58:51.440
we, we too think maybe on a similar line that there's

02:58:51.450 --> 02:58:55.799
additional discussion around that. So any other um

02:58:55.808 --> 02:59:01.149
agreements. Okay. So if we flip over to uh areas that

02:59:01.159 --> 02:59:04.549
we thought needed further discussion, so we talked

02:59:04.558 --> 02:59:08.418
about the HTR definition, we had agreement that we

02:59:08.429 --> 02:59:13.019
thought it needs to get expanded or uh or broaden whatever

02:59:13.030 --> 02:59:17.209
word you think makes best sense for how you might be

02:59:17.218 --> 02:59:20.918
thinking about it. But there was once again, that was

02:59:20.929 --> 02:59:25.308
like, Okay, if we make that change and if income, because

02:59:25.319 --> 02:59:29.250
currently income is included in the definition. If

02:59:29.259 --> 02:59:35.209
income is included in this expanded or broad definition

02:59:35.338 --> 02:59:39.879
then there was discussion around multiple metrics being

02:59:39.888 --> 02:59:42.479
used and it just had to be like it is today, it's

02:59:42.489 --> 02:59:48.659
200% of, of federal property. And is the, is it 200%,

02:59:49.290 --> 02:59:53.489
is it 300%? And is it 150 or does it need

02:59:53.500 --> 02:59:57.959
to be there at all? Um And or could it have a

02:59:57.968 --> 03:00:02.489
series of different metrics that you could use to qualify

03:00:02.500 --> 03:00:07.629
someone uh based on income like is done in other places

03:00:07.700 --> 03:00:12.399
So coming in, uh that's an area that needs some discussion

03:00:12.579 --> 03:00:15.569
And if you remember for those people that were on the

03:00:15.579 --> 03:00:20.620
working group or listened in in, in um session three

03:00:20.629 --> 03:00:22.838
at the end of the session, we said, hey, here's your

03:00:22.849 --> 03:00:25.500
opportunity. We've talked about a lot of these areas

03:00:25.509 --> 03:00:30.239
of discussion and now we really would like to get your

03:00:30.250 --> 03:00:34.709
ideas. So we ask people to start sharing or submitting

03:00:34.718 --> 03:00:40.468
their thoughts on, on what might this new HTR or

03:00:40.479 --> 03:00:43.870
this expanded or broad definition look like? So this

03:00:43.879 --> 03:00:47.540
is what we're asking for again. Uh what was talking

03:00:47.549 --> 03:00:51.679
about? Um And Therese was talking about in her introduction

03:00:51.690 --> 03:00:54.634
as now is an opportunity that yes, we would like to

03:00:54.644 --> 03:00:57.604
know if we all believe that the definition. And when

03:00:57.634 --> 03:01:02.954
I say if there's an area of agreement uh or in these

03:01:02.963 --> 03:01:06.334
discussion, uh these areas of discussion now is the

03:01:06.343 --> 03:01:10.213
opportunity to bring those to us and to file them and

03:01:10.224 --> 03:01:13.444
talk about, tell us what you think the definition should

03:01:13.454 --> 03:01:16.364
be. What, how, how do you think an expanded definition

03:01:16.375 --> 03:01:19.075
What should it consist of how, what? And those are

03:01:19.084 --> 03:01:21.769
the kind of things we'd like to see in addition to

03:01:21.780 --> 03:01:25.599
the uh definition. Um There is also questions. Oh,

03:01:25.610 --> 03:01:30.588
I see this. Well, um if uh I thought we changed those

03:01:30.649 --> 03:01:33.860
Oh yeah, they're in both space. Okay. So those uh the

03:01:33.870 --> 03:01:36.509
last two bullets underneath uh we moved over to

03:01:36.519 --> 03:01:39.110
goals by themselves, but I'll just jump over there

03:01:39.120 --> 03:01:43.069
and we'll come back to the others. So even if the 

03:01:43.079 --> 03:01:46.909
HTR definition um doesn't change, so don't expand it

03:01:46.918 --> 03:01:49.899
for some reason, you know, then the question of we

03:01:49.909 --> 03:01:53.629
had a conversation in regards to goals. OK. So the

03:01:53.638 --> 03:01:59.940
HTR goal is, I believe it's 5% across the board

03:01:59.950 --> 03:02:03.620
uh for all utilities and then on low income, I believe

03:02:03.629 --> 03:02:09.269
it's 10% for the ERCOT utilities. Correct? I have that

03:02:09.280 --> 03:02:12.450
vice versa. And um, the question is,

03:02:14.329 --> 03:02:17.808
is that, are those still appropriate is that different

03:02:17.819 --> 03:02:22.808
Uh, you heard Lark talk about, um, the measure baselines

03:02:22.819 --> 03:02:24.808
are changing, you know, they're getting, it's tougher

03:02:24.819 --> 03:02:27.349
it's costing us more, costing more money to get the

03:02:27.360 --> 03:02:30.888
same level of savings or maybe a higher level of savings

03:02:30.899 --> 03:02:34.088
So, you know, we had many different perspectives. Some

03:02:34.099 --> 03:02:37.579
people said that goal, if the definition doesn't change

03:02:37.709 --> 03:02:40.888
goals where they are today are appropriate and we think

03:02:40.899 --> 03:02:43.479
we can meet those. I'm not offended. I've just been

03:02:43.489 --> 03:02:46.079
called to. Thanks Cyrus s.

03:02:48.360 --> 03:02:52.659
Uh So, uh those are, those are, that's, uh that's an

03:02:52.668 --> 03:02:57.718
area of discussion. So is I think we all know in all

03:02:57.729 --> 03:03:01.259
these different groups, um There's been leave it at

03:03:01.269 --> 03:03:04.690
where it is. Uh maybe it needs to be lower, maybe it

03:03:04.700 --> 03:03:07.349
needs to be a little bit higher, a whole lot higher

03:03:07.450 --> 03:03:10.409
Here's your opportunity to share what you think uh

03:03:10.418 --> 03:03:13.599
should do is what, what the HTR and low income

03:03:13.610 --> 03:03:18.638
goals should be. Another area for discussion has to

03:03:18.649 --> 03:03:21.759
do with underserved segments. So as we talked about

03:03:21.769 --> 03:03:24.860
is, you know, there really isn't a definition for underserved

03:03:24.870 --> 03:03:27.929
segments and there's a lot of questions sometimes in

03:03:27.940 --> 03:03:34.259
regards to how well are we serving underserve and uh

03:03:34.269 --> 03:03:39.808
communities and people uh that and what's getting reported

03:03:39.819 --> 03:03:43.950
from that may very different, very much are very different

03:03:43.959 --> 03:03:47.929
may be very different, sorry between utilities. And

03:03:47.940 --> 03:03:51.769
so during the working group, uh there was discussion

03:03:51.780 --> 03:03:55.468
around, should we have an underserved definition. There's

03:03:55.479 --> 03:03:58.879
pros and cons with that. Does that limit, does that

03:03:58.888 --> 03:04:02.418
can you make that broad enough, flexible enough to

03:04:02.429 --> 03:04:08.218
meet each different utilities needs? And maybe, uh

03:04:08.519 --> 03:04:12.290
you know, encores might be related to multifamily might

03:04:12.299 --> 03:04:15.729
be an area that they're dealing with and, uh, smaller

03:04:15.739 --> 03:04:19.088
utilities with a lot of rural coverage might be saying

03:04:19.099 --> 03:04:23.259
I really got all this rural area and other ones might

03:04:23.269 --> 03:04:26.338
say I just have this population that's here. It happens

03:04:26.349 --> 03:04:30.790
to be located. Uh, while this morning we've had a northern

03:04:30.799 --> 03:04:34.968
uh Mark was talking about uh uh Beaumont. I don't remember

03:04:34.979 --> 03:04:37.509
if it's North or South Mark, but one of those areas

03:04:37.519 --> 03:04:39.452
where you're talking about that it was an area that

03:04:39.461 --> 03:04:44.243
you were uh had targeted specifically to because it

03:04:44.252 --> 03:04:48.002
wasn't getting served. So that that's the type of flexibility

03:04:48.012 --> 03:04:50.932
that we were talking about. So, you know, does, does

03:04:50.942 --> 03:04:53.801
there need to be a definition and would the definition

03:04:53.813 --> 03:04:58.313
then help for how we, uh will it allow for improved

03:04:58.323 --> 03:05:02.406
tracking on how we're meeting or serving these underserved

03:05:02.415 --> 03:05:06.805
segments? Um So that's an area of discussion uh that

03:05:06.816 --> 03:05:09.146
requires more discussion, is the definition really

03:05:09.156 --> 03:05:13.584
needed or can it stay undefined? But yet, maybe we

03:05:13.594 --> 03:05:18.415
do, we, we explain a little bit better in reporting

03:05:18.424 --> 03:05:22.396
or uh some other request of way to be able to uh

03:05:22.406 --> 03:05:27.750
indicate who who's being served at for what reason

03:05:27.759 --> 03:05:30.569
And we're trying to, trying to tie into that underserved

03:05:30.579 --> 03:05:31.649
population

03:05:33.849 --> 03:05:38.759
cost effectiveness standards. So, um we talked about

03:05:38.769 --> 03:05:43.558
the SIR Okay. And the need to have the um process

03:05:43.569 --> 03:05:46.819
or methodology and timing corrected. So then we get

03:05:46.829 --> 03:05:50.989
to cost effectiveness. And um really there are a lot

03:05:51.000 --> 03:05:55.079
of conversation about that. The current UTC calculation

03:05:55.088 --> 03:05:59.759
doesn't really uh UCT, sorry, doesn't um I'm like

03:06:00.679 --> 03:06:03.338
that just didn't work right in my head. Uh Sorry, uh

03:06:03.819 --> 03:06:09.599
um that it really isn't valuing the programs fairly

03:06:09.610 --> 03:06:11.979
and for what the benefits are that they're bringing

03:06:11.989 --> 03:06:15.968
to low income and underserved segments. So we had a

03:06:15.979 --> 03:06:20.058
lot of discussion around should the UCT be modified

03:06:20.349 --> 03:06:23.815
And we had people that really like to simplicity of

03:06:23.825 --> 03:06:29.013
UCT. Um And didn't think, and they didn't really

03:06:29.024 --> 03:06:32.735
think it needed to be changed, but maybe there is a

03:06:32.745 --> 03:06:35.543
level of agreement there. So maybe it wasn't really

03:06:35.554 --> 03:06:38.875
that we changed to a different test but maybe, could

03:06:38.884 --> 03:06:43.683
we modify it? Could it be modified to allow for more

03:06:43.694 --> 03:06:48.713
benefits to uh uh to be included in the calculation

03:06:49.870 --> 03:06:55.319
Uh And then uh as through that same, those same discussions

03:06:56.168 --> 03:06:58.769
but there's questions in regards to health and safety

03:06:58.780 --> 03:07:00.899
and a lot of times when people think health and safety

03:07:00.909 --> 03:07:03.190
they only think about that. It's low income and then

03:07:03.200 --> 03:07:05.509
you're like, Okay, that's on the other side. Nays said

03:07:05.519 --> 03:07:08.540
that's on SIR okay. Yeah, we're not disagreeing with

03:07:08.549 --> 03:07:12.899
that, but we also were talking about moderate income

03:07:12.909 --> 03:07:17.209
and others. So in that, when, when you have HTR

03:07:17.218 --> 03:07:20.599
programs, they fall underneath the UCTs

03:07:20.610 --> 03:07:24.138
test is used for those. So the question came into play

03:07:24.149 --> 03:07:30.459
about, should those, um, should we find a way or look

03:07:30.468 --> 03:07:34.000
at a way that we could use health and safety? So those

03:07:34.009 --> 03:07:36.200
things that have to be done in order for us to really

03:07:36.209 --> 03:07:39.729
do the energy efficiency improvements, those things

03:07:39.739 --> 03:07:42.989
need to be done. First, is there a way to include that

03:07:43.058 --> 03:07:46.780
into the cost effectiveness testing that shows more

03:07:46.790 --> 03:07:50.190
benefits that could be there to make, that make these

03:07:50.200 --> 03:07:54.250
programs more cost effective. But once again, there's

03:07:54.259 --> 03:07:56.290
a lot of discussion around there, there's pros and

03:07:56.299 --> 03:07:59.679
cons, there are differences of opinions in our working

03:07:59.690 --> 03:08:03.440
group. And so that's why you see it as an area of

03:08:03.450 --> 03:08:04.629
discussion for now.

03:08:07.009 --> 03:08:11.269
Anything on those three before, uh we go on to the

03:08:11.280 --> 03:08:13.750
last two or the last one. So since we already talked

03:08:13.759 --> 03:08:17.299
about both, just a quick question, I don't know if

03:08:17.308 --> 03:08:20.829
anybody has identified or added like it seems to me

03:08:20.838 --> 03:08:24.370
like vendors or people that rent their home, you know

03:08:25.000 --> 03:08:28.069
have regular rental properties. It seems like there's

03:08:28.079 --> 03:08:32.370
a big disincentive to, you know, do energy efficiency

03:08:32.379 --> 03:08:35.269
and demand response. And so maybe if they, you know

03:08:35.280 --> 03:08:39.370
focused on them as an underserved segment was possible

03:08:39.989 --> 03:08:43.058
state. And when you say that, are you talking like

03:08:43.069 --> 03:08:46.349
like the split split incentive kind of issue or is

03:08:46.360 --> 03:08:48.489
it? Okay. Um

03:08:50.079 --> 03:08:54.519
Yeah, that there may and we may pull the uh a lot

03:08:54.530 --> 03:08:56.989
of the discussion for the working group was around

03:08:57.000 --> 03:09:00.000
multifamily, not the individual homes. But I don't

03:09:00.009 --> 03:09:03.739
know if we completely were, we, we were talking on

03:09:03.750 --> 03:09:08.190
a similar line, but it was more on the depart apartment

03:09:08.200 --> 03:09:11.729
dwellings or uh instead of a single family home, but

03:09:11.739 --> 03:09:14.638
maybe a similar discussion. But it could be once again

03:09:14.649 --> 03:09:18.479
that's one of those segments that maybe for one utility

03:09:18.489 --> 03:09:21.500
that may make sense or it may not for others, but the

03:09:21.509 --> 03:09:24.019
split incentive overall can be to turn for.

03:09:27.968 --> 03:09:32.019
Okay. Uh And then of course, we are back to increased

03:09:32.030 --> 03:09:36.049
coordination uh or collaboration. And so this really

03:09:36.058 --> 03:09:41.399
got into uh earlier, you saw it in regards to organization

03:09:41.409 --> 03:09:45.299
but we really had a lot of conversations here in regards

03:09:45.308 --> 03:09:48.239
to rep service providers, other stakeholders. Okay. We

03:09:48.250 --> 03:09:51.079
just sort of RUC them all together because it was trying

03:09:51.088 --> 03:09:55.509
to keep the keep the group group broad and not be like

03:09:55.519 --> 03:09:58.750
it's like only one group, all of those groups are important

03:09:59.088 --> 03:10:02.588
Uh And the working group, uh obviously I said they

03:10:02.599 --> 03:10:06.459
said there was a level of, of, of opportunity that

03:10:06.468 --> 03:10:10.879
was there. But then it's um trying to look at like

03:10:10.888 --> 03:10:14.349
what would be the process improvement is the word we're

03:10:14.360 --> 03:10:18.280
using is what would that look like if we, if we know

03:10:18.290 --> 03:10:24.450
we can if we know we need to um expand, I'm gonna

03:10:24.459 --> 03:10:27.649
say that collaboration for the good of the programs

03:10:27.659 --> 03:10:30.968
and for the good of our custom, the customers. What

03:10:30.979 --> 03:10:34.530
would, what, what should that look like um in the meetings

03:10:34.540 --> 03:10:37.989
that we were in? Just to give you some ideas, there

03:10:38.000 --> 03:10:42.690
were suggestions about maybe there should be a uh advisory

03:10:42.700 --> 03:10:49.250
group. Okay. And that occurred some frequency. Okay? Uh

03:10:49.269 --> 03:10:52.440
Because we have the EEIP meeting today, everyone's

03:10:52.599 --> 03:10:56.659
everyone's here, everyone has that opportunity. But

03:10:56.870 --> 03:11:01.759
if we really want to increase the, the level of participation

03:11:01.769 --> 03:11:06.399
by all the different uh groups of people from program

03:11:06.409 --> 03:11:11.319
design to development to performance, uh Then how do

03:11:11.329 --> 03:11:14.888
we do that? And like Gary said, it's not just two if

03:11:14.899 --> 03:11:17.799
we talk reps specifically because that's who was in

03:11:17.808 --> 03:11:20.259
our work group with us. It's not, we're not just talking

03:11:20.269 --> 03:11:25.649
about one or two groups, we're talking about 100

03:11:25.659 --> 03:11:27.690
I'm gonna use groups and it might be an individual

03:11:27.700 --> 03:11:30.950
or a group of one, but there's a large population there

03:11:30.959 --> 03:11:38.200
and that can be difficult. So, um the, the, the discussion

03:11:38.209 --> 03:11:40.909
areas around, well, how do we put that into place?

03:11:40.918 --> 03:11:44.190
What would be the best mechanism? And that's really

03:11:44.200 --> 03:11:47.558
where the area of discussion came for the low income

03:11:47.989 --> 03:11:51.308
working group is like, how could we do that? See it

03:11:51.319 --> 03:11:53.690
There's not a rule that would, there's not, we don't

03:11:53.700 --> 03:11:56.360
believe there's a rule change that needed to occur

03:11:56.638 --> 03:11:58.979
It was really just getting something into place so

03:11:58.989 --> 03:12:02.299
that people felt like there would be real change or

03:12:03.280 --> 03:12:06.909
and I, I take that as well, really there would be expansion

03:12:06.918 --> 03:12:10.649
because we're know there are, there's collaboration

03:12:10.659 --> 03:12:13.968
occurring in certain aspects really easy. And then

03:12:13.979 --> 03:12:17.530
there's areas where some groups, one over the other

03:12:17.540 --> 03:12:22.239
work, one group or another has pointed out, but there's

03:12:22.250 --> 03:12:25.799
areas to grow and to make that a better, a better for

03:12:25.808 --> 03:12:28.489
all purposes of the customer overall.

03:12:30.829 --> 03:12:34.968
Um And once again, all of these things for the low

03:12:34.979 --> 03:12:37.610
income, these were things that we asked for in the

03:12:37.620 --> 03:12:40.799
third session, for people to start giving ideas for

03:12:40.808 --> 03:12:44.808
these topics and or any other topic as well. We didn't

03:12:44.819 --> 03:12:48.069
we didn't limit it but said these are definitely, definitely

03:12:48.079 --> 03:12:51.659
areas that we need to, we would like to see examples

03:12:51.668 --> 03:12:57.599
or get people's thoughts on what, what would be beneficial

03:12:57.610 --> 03:13:01.250
or a potential action to address some of this additional

03:13:01.259 --> 03:13:05.370
discussion of open areas of, of possible changes that

03:13:05.379 --> 03:13:10.110
would be um uh very good for the programs or that may

03:13:10.120 --> 03:13:11.700
be good for the programs going forward.

03:13:14.159 --> 03:13:15.040
That's it.

03:13:16.959 --> 03:13:21.179
Have a look at the clock. Sorry. Um So program planning

03:13:21.308 --> 03:13:23.530
and this is what I'm gonna say, like I said, we have

03:13:23.540 --> 03:13:26.929
some very many of the same key issues. You can move

03:13:26.940 --> 03:13:29.709
to the key issues. Sorry. Many of the same key issues

03:13:29.718 --> 03:13:31.899
you're gonna see the planning cycle avoided costs.

03:13:31.909 --> 03:13:34.058
This is the group that we actually really talked in

03:13:34.069 --> 03:13:38.388
more detail on the avoided costs. You know, all the

03:13:38.399 --> 03:13:40.929
things that you can see up there. And then the big

03:13:40.940 --> 03:13:45.179
expanded part here was performance bonuses and also

03:13:45.190 --> 03:13:48.968
additional collaboration with the other third parties

03:13:48.979 --> 03:13:53.509
and funding. So areas agreement. So we talk about the

03:13:53.519 --> 03:13:57.269
planning cycle now we can, you know, it wasn't a resolution

03:13:57.280 --> 03:14:01.290
uh or a consensus of agreement on how long that program

03:14:01.299 --> 03:14:06.638
cycle was, should be, that be the word. But rather

03:14:06.649 --> 03:14:09.370
that the goal should be is if we're going to make any

03:14:09.379 --> 03:14:14.588
changes to the program cycle, as it says here is, it

03:14:14.599 --> 03:14:17.739
should be that, that change, the change that would

03:14:17.750 --> 03:14:22.299
be being made is optimizing the energy efficiency program

03:14:22.308 --> 03:14:25.229
value. And what we're trying to get to there is making

03:14:25.239 --> 03:14:29.399
sure that it was maybe making them more efficient things

03:14:29.409 --> 03:14:32.290
that we heard here, it was making them more effective

03:14:32.299 --> 03:14:35.459
accessible. Those really were the type of things. So

03:14:35.468 --> 03:14:39.849
don't just make a a program cycle change, make sure

03:14:39.860 --> 03:14:42.649
it's really doing something that's, that's for the

03:14:42.659 --> 03:14:44.790
good of the programs and the customers and the rate

03:14:44.968 --> 03:14:46.659
the rate payers themselves

03:14:48.179 --> 03:14:52.019
and then uh the planning cycle, you know, it, there's

03:14:52.030 --> 03:14:54.950
not one little piece of planning cycle. You can't just

03:14:54.959 --> 03:14:57.929
say, well, we're gonna go from one year to three years

03:14:57.940 --> 03:15:02.290
I'm just using that as an example. Okay? Uh But there's

03:15:02.299 --> 03:15:04.659
a lot of other pieces that go with that. You can say

03:15:04.668 --> 03:15:07.269
planning is that and we're gonna do this, but there's

03:15:07.280 --> 03:15:11.069
also all these other pieces. You got the and you

03:15:11.079 --> 03:15:14.700
have the, uh, so the planning, the reports themselves

03:15:14.709 --> 03:15:18.940
the plans themselves, uh the efficient uh uh cost recovery

03:15:19.004 --> 03:15:21.665
You got the TRM, you got EM&B. All

03:15:21.674 --> 03:15:24.134
of those things have to be taken to avoid the cost

03:15:24.144 --> 03:15:27.155
You have to take all of those into consideration and

03:15:27.165 --> 03:15:29.774
think about each of those when you're gonna make this

03:15:29.915 --> 03:15:32.724
trying to figure out what the, what the change may

03:15:32.735 --> 03:15:37.860
be for the pro the planning cycle, how do all these

03:15:37.870 --> 03:15:40.409
other things get impacted and look at those from a

03:15:40.418 --> 03:15:43.540
holistic view instead of looking at, well, we're just

03:15:43.549 --> 03:15:46.519
gonna go from one year to three years as my example

03:15:46.530 --> 03:15:49.790
Okay? And the rest of that stuff will figure out after

03:15:49.799 --> 03:15:53.129
the fact. So take a look at it holistically to ensure

03:15:53.138 --> 03:15:54.769
that that change makes sense.

03:15:56.540 --> 03:15:59.209
And I say, I think of that, that makes sense that it's

03:15:59.218 --> 03:16:00.799
for the good of the programs.

03:16:02.399 --> 03:16:06.409
No, no, no, I have to offend anyone there. Okay? Uh And

03:16:06.418 --> 03:16:09.968
so um that was a big part here is, you know, make

03:16:09.979 --> 03:16:13.968
it uh it's a good, good for the customer um the other

03:16:13.979 --> 03:16:16.940
area of agreement stakeholder engagement in the planning

03:16:16.950 --> 03:16:21.409
cycle. I mean, this is we, there's a lot of conversation

03:16:21.418 --> 03:16:24.479
around here that EEIP is the current way to

03:16:24.489 --> 03:16:30.399
do this. Um And people, we had some awareness in regards

03:16:30.409 --> 03:16:33.838
to the process but not always having a feeling like

03:16:33.849 --> 03:16:36.959
there was a place at the table. So there is a lot

03:16:36.968 --> 03:16:41.500
of uh a level, high level of agreement here in regards

03:16:41.509 --> 03:16:44.683
to that, there's opportunity need to expand this similar

03:16:44.694 --> 03:16:47.054
to what we just talked about on the low income side

03:16:47.343 --> 03:16:51.843
Uh Similar thoughts in regards to advisory group is

03:16:51.854 --> 03:16:55.634
their um try to wait and look for what they say is

03:16:55.644 --> 03:16:58.575
there are like quarterly meetings or their websites

03:16:58.584 --> 03:17:01.293
or portals that are created that make it easier for

03:17:01.304 --> 03:17:05.364
people for other third parties to be able to find the

03:17:05.375 --> 03:17:08.864
information and know what's going on and like when

03:17:08.875 --> 03:17:11.543
where and how, where do I need to be if I want

03:17:11.554 --> 03:17:15.838
to be involved in uh the planning cycle or the planning

03:17:15.849 --> 03:17:19.418
of uh program planning and program development, how

03:17:19.429 --> 03:17:23.968
do we make everyone aware of how to do that and what

03:17:23.979 --> 03:17:29.129
what that involves? Um And that's really the, the the

03:17:29.138 --> 03:17:35.280
area that was interesting from the different perspectives

03:17:35.290 --> 03:17:37.769
in the room of that working group. And I'm sorry when

03:17:37.780 --> 03:17:40.530
I say room, sorry, our little heads on the, on the

03:17:40.540 --> 03:17:44.319
screen felt like we were in a room sometimes. Ok. Uh

03:17:44.349 --> 03:17:47.259
But if there was a lot of different perspectives around

03:17:47.269 --> 03:17:51.579
that, but one thing that was there is that no one is

03:17:51.588 --> 03:17:55.540
being excluded from the table. Everyone has the, has

03:17:55.549 --> 03:17:58.099
a seat at the table. That was the intent by everybody

03:17:58.110 --> 03:18:00.519
that was on that working group. It's just making sure

03:18:00.530 --> 03:18:04.120
that people knew how to do that and understanding when

03:18:04.129 --> 03:18:07.239
people wanted to be aware of that. So what's that process

03:18:07.250 --> 03:18:11.110
need to look like? Um similar to what I just said earlier

03:18:11.120 --> 03:18:14.110
in regards to low income? So that was one of the carryover

03:18:15.110 --> 03:18:17.780
and then nays area of grooming is a program options

03:18:17.790 --> 03:18:24.659
today. Uh uh In the role, there's a list of program

03:18:24.668 --> 03:18:28.200
types. Uh SOPs, I'm head of all this on

03:18:28.209 --> 03:18:30.940
that. I don't have it on here right now, but uh all

03:18:30.950 --> 03:18:34.229
of the current options that are available. Uh There

03:18:34.239 --> 03:18:37.799
is a, a high level of agreement there that the proof

03:18:37.808 --> 03:18:43.454
program today allow for flexibility. And so that if

03:18:43.463 --> 03:18:46.894
there are changes of looking at program options, we

03:18:46.905 --> 03:18:49.704
need to make sure that that flexibility stays in there

03:18:49.864 --> 03:18:54.375
And uh the high level of agreement was that those program

03:18:54.384 --> 03:18:56.204
options that are available today,

03:18:57.879 --> 03:19:01.168
all different, all the different pilots and things

03:19:01.179 --> 03:19:04.489
that have been offered were able to be fit into one

03:19:04.500 --> 03:19:07.790
of those options that exist today. So there wasn't

03:19:07.950 --> 03:19:12.759
the, there wasn't uh um

03:19:15.418 --> 03:19:17.700
sorry, I just lost my train of thought there, there

03:19:17.709 --> 03:19:20.718
It so the options are working today, even though we

03:19:20.729 --> 03:19:23.099
have a lot of innovation that we're trying to bring

03:19:23.110 --> 03:19:25.799
into the programs, they're fit, being able to be fit

03:19:25.808 --> 03:19:30.808
into the programs today. Um But there was a lot of

03:19:30.918 --> 03:19:35.129
the conversation evolved around pilot programs and

03:19:35.138 --> 03:19:39.190
that today the the requirement of having the pilot

03:19:39.200 --> 03:19:43.099
out there running it for a year and then having, having

03:19:43.110 --> 03:19:48.319
it be show it's cost effective and then moving it into

03:19:48.329 --> 03:19:53.299
a program itself can be a deterrent. And that there

03:19:53.308 --> 03:19:57.599
was overwhelming agreement that pilot programs should

03:19:57.610 --> 03:20:02.700
be one of those areas that they are able to last for

03:20:02.709 --> 03:20:06.218
longer than one year. And so sometimes it's like you're

03:20:06.229 --> 03:20:09.000
trying to get it stood up and get it functioning and

03:20:09.009 --> 03:20:11.418
running and then showing that it's cost effective before

03:20:11.429 --> 03:20:14.918
the end of the year. Um That was that this is where

03:20:14.929 --> 03:20:18.110
we really were trying, where the team was really trying

03:20:18.120 --> 03:20:21.918
to demonstrate that that needs to be expanded and it

03:20:21.929 --> 03:20:24.968
would be an area that if we're looking at program option

03:20:24.979 --> 03:20:28.069
adjustments, that that's the option that should be

03:20:28.079 --> 03:20:31.729
or that's an area that needs to be looked at and be

03:20:31.739 --> 03:20:33.149
considered to be changed.

03:20:34.909 --> 03:20:41.450
Go ahead my second. Um avoid it cost uh whole list

03:20:41.459 --> 03:20:42.599
of things up there, but

03:20:44.280 --> 03:20:49.579
here it in general, okay. Both avoided costs of capacity

03:20:49.588 --> 03:20:54.370
avoided cost of energy. Um The team, the working group

03:20:54.379 --> 03:20:57.138
uh really agreed that it was time for us to take another

03:20:57.149 --> 03:21:00.159
look at those. It's been, if you talk about capacity

03:21:00.308 --> 03:21:05.360
um for the last decade, voided cost capacity has been

03:21:05.370 --> 03:21:10.918
$80, right? I mean, um and that uh the voided cost

03:21:10.929 --> 03:21:14.870
uh probably needed to uh also when we were looking

03:21:14.879 --> 03:21:18.110
at the methodology or the calculation, we also needed

03:21:18.120 --> 03:21:23.450
to uh look at uh the timing of it today. Uh avoided

03:21:23.459 --> 03:21:28.808
costs are uh published in November. Uh People are filing

03:21:28.819 --> 03:21:35.690
plans and uh or doing a uh April one and they're using

03:21:35.700 --> 03:21:41.200
one costs, one uh what it costs uh at that time. And

03:21:41.308 --> 03:21:45.739
then November 1st comes along, it's a different uh

03:21:46.479 --> 03:21:50.668
uh well, could be different. Has the option to be different

03:21:50.679 --> 03:21:54.290
has it been? But then at least on the capacity side

03:21:54.299 --> 03:21:58.588
and then the, the uh they, it start running the program

03:21:58.599 --> 03:22:02.459
the next January, but there's a diff already a difference

03:22:02.468 --> 03:22:05.040
right there that can really cause some issues. And

03:22:05.049 --> 03:22:08.280
so uh the team was really interest, the working group

03:22:08.290 --> 03:22:11.588
was really interested in looking at both calculations

03:22:11.599 --> 03:22:14.509
and looking at the timing of that and really for on

03:22:14.519 --> 03:22:18.134
the energy side, you know, would help level the fluc

03:22:18.274 --> 03:22:22.704
fluctuation between years. And I think the other side

03:22:22.713 --> 03:22:26.474
of it is both of these, there's a question around just

03:22:26.485 --> 03:22:31.304
being undervalued. So uh really to to chase after that

03:22:31.763 --> 03:22:37.168
And then once again, you see the voided cost for retail

03:22:37.179 --> 03:22:39.479
energy coming up here, the same thing as what we talked

03:22:39.489 --> 03:22:43.009
for low income, it did come up in this uh in this

03:22:43.088 --> 03:22:45.950
discussion as well and there was agreement to put that

03:22:45.959 --> 03:22:49.918
consistent method out there. Um

03:22:53.030 --> 03:22:55.308
Anything on avoided costs because there was a lot of

03:22:55.319 --> 03:22:59.049
discussion around this. But this is the area of agreement

03:22:59.058 --> 03:22:59.940
where we landed.

03:23:01.950 --> 03:23:04.418
Anyone feel like there's something left off there.

03:23:04.620 --> 03:23:07.159
Mark. Could you talk about increasing the length of

03:23:07.168 --> 03:23:09.519
the water cost of energy from two years to?

03:23:11.058 --> 03:23:14.218
Yeah, I think that's the timeline and the uh as well

03:23:14.229 --> 03:23:16.790
I gave the other example, Mark, but I should have stated

03:23:16.799 --> 03:23:19.739
that as well. Yes, it's that calculation and there's

03:23:19.750 --> 03:23:23.019
also attributes in each of those calculations that

03:23:23.030 --> 03:23:27.329
might be slightly different compared to. Um And what's

03:23:27.338 --> 03:23:31.870
the one that we talked about as far as uh the escalator

03:23:31.879 --> 03:23:35.780
and the discount rate, the discount rates on the um

03:23:36.259 --> 03:23:39.799
cost cap, right? And I have it backwards to calculate

03:23:39.808 --> 03:23:42.179
the cost cap year to year. You use the uh consumer

03:23:42.190 --> 03:23:44.929
price index as the way you increase it. Uh escalation

03:23:44.940 --> 03:23:48.360
rate is 72% every single year. Um There's something

03:23:48.370 --> 03:23:53.159
that was 8% that we're valuing. Oh, that's the eu L

03:23:53.168 --> 03:23:57.838
uh had to do with the calculation discount.

03:24:00.500 --> 03:24:03.229
Yes. Yes, that's where we got into the conversation

03:24:03.239 --> 03:24:05.418
but there's different. So you have an escalator over

03:24:05.429 --> 03:24:09.620
here of 2% and discount rate of 8% that we thought

03:24:09.629 --> 03:24:13.384
that those needed to be looked at to see that. Yeah

03:24:13.394 --> 03:24:16.504
I think it was still we suggested potentially increasing

03:24:16.513 --> 03:24:19.644
the cost caps uh based on a different metric than C

03:24:20.183 --> 03:24:24.593
Yeah. Yeah. So that conversation came around as well

03:24:24.604 --> 03:24:27.905
Um So and you'll see if we'll have that opportunity

03:24:27.915 --> 03:24:29.694
in the, in the, because they're obviously going to

03:24:29.704 --> 03:24:33.093
come up on the further discussion needed as well. Is

03:24:33.125 --> 03:24:38.159
there any discussion about including in avoiding cost

03:24:38.168 --> 03:24:42.899
socialized cost, you know, pollution? There's yes,

03:24:43.120 --> 03:24:47.290
that, yes, yes, yes. That's where we're gonna want

03:24:47.360 --> 03:24:52.280
to go into cost effectiveness here. But so, uh as I

03:24:52.290 --> 03:24:55.838
said, in our conversation, the working group overall

03:24:55.849 --> 03:24:59.120
thought that um the programs were undervalued, that

03:24:59.129 --> 03:25:03.190
we weren't capturing all the benefits. Okay? And so,

03:25:03.200 --> 03:25:07.489
and so by reviewing the calculations, we might identify

03:25:07.500 --> 03:25:11.649
some uh some areas. And then when you're actually in

03:25:11.659 --> 03:25:16.819
the cost effectiveness calculation, so are this group

03:25:16.829 --> 03:25:22.440
Okay. This uh program planning when uh Commissioner Jackson

03:25:22.450 --> 03:25:25.239
said this morning, Texas is really unique. We're not

03:25:25.250 --> 03:25:28.058
like the rest of the state. Okay? We have unique things

03:25:28.069 --> 03:25:31.450
happening here that other people do not have. And so

03:25:31.649 --> 03:25:35.468
when we talked about the UCT, not necessarily capturing

03:25:35.479 --> 03:25:39.579
um UCT, not capturing all the benefits or the simplicity

03:25:39.588 --> 03:25:43.808
of that calculation. And in order to get more nonen

03:25:43.909 --> 03:25:50.030
energy benefits in whatever they may be. Okay? Um How

03:25:50.040 --> 03:25:53.638
maybe that should uh we should modify the UCT. And

03:25:53.649 --> 03:25:56.440
so then that takes away the simplicity of that. So

03:25:56.450 --> 03:25:59.638
then it was well, maybe we use a different test. Okay

03:25:59.870 --> 03:26:03.610
And then this brain child came up. Okay? And said, maybe

03:26:03.620 --> 03:26:07.629
really what we need to do is create our own Texas centric

03:26:08.718 --> 03:26:12.468
cost effectiveness. It, it's elsewhere, other states

03:26:12.479 --> 03:26:15.569
do this. It's not like we're coming up with something

03:26:15.579 --> 03:26:18.200
that's never happened before. Now, we could Texas is

03:26:18.209 --> 03:26:21.468
different but we, it's, this has been done elsewhere

03:26:21.479 --> 03:26:24.638
Other states, New Jersey has, you know, other things

03:26:24.649 --> 03:26:27.474
that happen, but maybe that's how we look at it so

03:26:27.485 --> 03:26:30.433
we can make sure that whatever additional benefits

03:26:30.444 --> 03:26:34.485
we think need to be included of that or any other parts

03:26:34.495 --> 03:26:39.084
of that calculation that we have the ability to include

03:26:39.093 --> 03:26:43.213
what is necessary for Texas that really shows the value

03:26:43.224 --> 03:26:48.360
of the programs of the Texas programs. Okay? And then

03:26:48.370 --> 03:26:52.120
once again, portfolio portfolio level cost effectiveness

03:26:52.129 --> 03:26:55.450
talked about that as well as this group too. Uh really

03:26:55.459 --> 03:27:00.620
thought it was important that we transition to um to

03:27:00.629 --> 03:27:05.179
uh portfolio level instead of program level. The other

03:27:05.190 --> 03:27:08.129
area that we talked about was performance bonuses.

03:27:08.149 --> 03:27:10.558
Am I? Well, I got eight minutes, right? Yeah, I just

03:27:10.569 --> 03:27:14.088
the scream we told him till four. So maybe just if

03:27:14.099 --> 03:27:17.379
we can get to the areas of disagreement. Okay? Okay. The

03:27:17.388 --> 03:27:20.159
performance bonuses, OK. We'll just real quickly say

03:27:20.168 --> 03:27:24.069
we had we agreed they were necessary and that we any

03:27:24.079 --> 03:27:28.120
changes we pointed out to avoid it costs um and or

03:27:28.474 --> 03:27:33.924
any changes that were made to avoid it cost cost effectiveness

03:27:33.933 --> 03:27:36.784
all of those things would need to be taken into consideration

03:27:36.825 --> 03:27:40.004
because performance bonus calculate it would be the

03:27:40.183 --> 03:27:43.054
performance bonus calculation would be impacted by

03:27:43.065 --> 03:27:45.213
those. So once again, you have to take that holistic

03:27:45.224 --> 03:27:47.834
approach before you make a decision on what that change

03:27:47.843 --> 03:27:50.575
would be for performance bonuses because of all the

03:27:50.584 --> 03:27:54.360
other changes that might be occurring. Okay. Differences

03:27:54.468 --> 03:27:58.308
OK. I said uh what's the appropriate planning cycle

03:27:58.319 --> 03:28:01.019
link that helps to reduce the, you know, the goal is

03:28:01.030 --> 03:28:03.579
we want to make a change, but it's good, there's reasons

03:28:03.588 --> 03:28:07.418
So if the uh if it make a program change where it's

03:28:07.429 --> 03:28:11.509
gonna uh reduce administration administrative burden

03:28:11.519 --> 03:28:14.549
it encourages forward thinking and aligns with the

03:28:14.558 --> 03:28:17.239
avoided cost calculations. You know, those are the

03:28:17.250 --> 03:28:19.259
things, but there's a lot of discussion about that

03:28:19.269 --> 03:28:21.409
because as I said, in our working group, you had people

03:28:21.418 --> 03:28:25.450
say leave it alone, move it to this, um all kinds of

03:28:25.459 --> 03:28:27.860
different numbers there that will come up. So it's

03:28:27.870 --> 03:28:31.269
an area that needs to be discussed, avoided costs,

03:28:31.879 --> 03:28:35.409
uh you know, should avoid it costs. Uh The one of the

03:28:35.418 --> 03:28:39.239
areas that came up, uh it was, and we didn't have a

03:28:39.250 --> 03:28:42.049
whole lot of time to explore this, but we started,

03:28:42.058 --> 03:28:45.690
it was, you know, should avoid it costs uh be used

03:28:45.700 --> 03:28:49.729
be calculated and then be used through the from that

03:28:49.739 --> 03:28:53.450
time frame for all measures installed over the that

03:28:53.459 --> 03:28:57.479
are estimated us, sorry, estimated useful life. Ok

03:28:57.849 --> 03:29:01.808
And instead of having a changing of avoided costs.

03:29:01.819 --> 03:29:06.019
So if we had a measure we installed it today, the voided

03:29:06.030 --> 03:29:09.069
cost would be used from now till the end of time of

03:29:09.079 --> 03:29:11.989
the end of that, uh whatever the EUL is. So if

03:29:12.000 --> 03:29:14.149
it's 10 years, it would be used for that 10 years.

03:29:14.950 --> 03:29:18.329
That, that was an area that's going to require a lot

03:29:18.338 --> 03:29:23.049
of different discussion and analysis around there.

03:29:23.299 --> 03:29:26.968
And then the one that we've all talked about over and

03:29:26.979 --> 03:29:30.610
over is TND should avoided TND costs be

03:29:30.620 --> 03:29:34.829
included um associated with the energy efficiency programs

03:29:34.838 --> 03:29:39.200
and incorporated the calculations, shareholder engagement

03:29:39.819 --> 03:29:42.509
You know, what would be the best, best mechanism to

03:29:42.519 --> 03:29:45.519
allow that enhanced collaboration? What would that

03:29:45.530 --> 03:29:49.269
look like? Opportunity to talk, share, what you think

03:29:49.280 --> 03:29:53.379
with that? Um Are there opportunities for more common

03:29:53.388 --> 03:29:59.138
programs across the state? That's the question of that's

03:29:59.149 --> 03:30:02.610
come up in several of the working groups as far as

03:30:02.620 --> 03:30:06.069
you know, can, can there be statewide programs? I use

03:30:06.079 --> 03:30:10.360
that I utility? Okay. I'm just using that as a to, to

03:30:10.370 --> 03:30:13.638
explain the concept here. Okay. Uh But you know, we know

03:30:13.649 --> 03:30:16.500
there's reasons why that's not possible or that makes

03:30:16.509 --> 03:30:18.799
it difficult? But is there some way, do we need to

03:30:18.808 --> 03:30:23.370
explore that further and then performance uh bonuses

03:30:23.379 --> 03:30:27.819
you know what level of review uh is, is appropriate

03:30:27.829 --> 03:30:30.929
for performance bonuses to ensure they're just and

03:30:30.940 --> 03:30:33.610
reasonable? I mean, that's the rule, the, the rules

03:30:33.620 --> 03:30:36.750
requirement uh that they're just and reasonable. So

03:30:36.860 --> 03:30:40.459
what level of that is the level that we're doing today

03:30:40.468 --> 03:30:42.918
Is that appropriate, should something else being done

03:30:43.329 --> 03:30:47.700
And then um is there a maximum performance bonus metrics

03:30:47.709 --> 03:30:51.459
uh tied to the total net benefits? Is it appropriate

03:30:51.468 --> 03:30:55.159
in Texas today? Or should there be a different calculation

03:30:55.479 --> 03:30:58.629
And um there was a lot of discussion that we should

03:30:58.638 --> 03:31:01.418
be looking at best practice or go out and look at other

03:31:01.668 --> 03:31:05.329
uh mechanisms that are being used in the country and

03:31:05.338 --> 03:31:08.709
see what those may look like. Uh So those are the areas

03:31:08.718 --> 03:31:12.625
of discussion that came up. But uh I will say when

03:31:12.634 --> 03:31:15.974
we made our request after the third session, I think

03:31:15.985 --> 03:31:19.554
we only got a few comments. But there are, this is

03:31:19.565 --> 03:31:22.204
your opportunity as being asked by trees to please

03:31:22.213 --> 03:31:25.084
put that out there and bring those to the table and

03:31:25.093 --> 03:31:30.099
file them in the, in the project. And then I done because

03:31:30.110 --> 03:31:33.659
I, I gave them three minutes ago. Yeah, I drink.

03:31:36.110 --> 03:31:38.569
(item:11:38578, Wrap up and Next Steps) So I would just like to thank you all for coming. Thank

03:31:38.579 --> 03:31:42.079
you for your input. Um I'm looking forward to your

03:31:42.088 --> 03:31:47.659
comments and your suggestions and I'll be checking

03:31:47.668 --> 03:31:51.269
my inbox and April 20 to see what we have and Clark

03:31:51.280 --> 03:31:54.110
give anything. Oh, no, thank you. It's been so great

03:31:54.120 --> 03:31:57.030
So I'm giving you 2 minutes.

03:31:58.659 --> 03:32:02.588
Therese said the email came late for the request for

03:32:02.599 --> 03:32:05.838
comments yesterday or I haven't seen it but you said

03:32:05.849 --> 03:32:07.718
we're supposed to email them back to you or file. I

03:32:07.968 --> 03:32:14.739
I meant file them, 38578, just to make sure. But any

03:32:14.750 --> 03:32:19.218
questions comments, you know, like I mean, but we wanna

03:32:19.229 --> 03:32:24.250
make sure and I'll send out an EEIP to serve

03:32:24.259 --> 03:32:28.468
with all the information and step by step what I need

03:32:28.479 --> 03:32:30.530
which is very simple, April 20th

03:32:32.179 --> 03:32:34.280
and the slide will come out within the next day or

03:32:34.290 --> 03:32:37.530
so as well if you can send that out just to one

03:32:37.690 --> 03:32:40.069
group because I know I've signed up on that list, sir.

03:32:40.079 --> 03:32:43.968
And I don't know that I'm getting those emails even

03:32:43.979 --> 03:32:47.069
though I got a confirmation. So I, I

03:32:49.360 --> 03:32:52.799
Amy, Frontier getting them. So you guys, I can them

03:32:52.870 --> 03:32:55.739
to you, right? And if you have any problems with our

03:32:55.870 --> 03:32:56.899
website, just let me know.

03:32:59.879 --> 03:33:00.040
Thank you.

03:33:11.399 --> 03:33:11.569
Thank you.